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I was wondering about the historical occurance of the divine name,
when it first shows up in Near East history. I could start a thread about
it here, seperately. I did start a thread elsewhere, in Crossroads of Religion.
Might link to it at some point, but first I would like people here to possibly
discuss when it was the Hebrews first knew of the name, Yod He Vau He.
Also Jah, Yah, or related names, and the stories surrounding those names
in associated Near East cultures. I'm thinking specifically of I think Yam
from Canaanite myths. It seems so contemporary to the period of the Hebrews
origin, so I am curious whether there is an historical connection, or if there is
not. I would reason that this might stir up controversy, but if there is no
possible connection, it should be proven.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_%28god%29
In any case it is a wonderful mystery. I love ancient myths.
when it first shows up in Near East history. I could start a thread about
it here, seperately. I did start a thread elsewhere, in Crossroads of Religion.
Might link to it at some point, but first I would like people here to possibly
discuss when it was the Hebrews first knew of the name, Yod He Vau He.
Also Jah, Yah, or related names, and the stories surrounding those names
in associated Near East cultures. I'm thinking specifically of I think Yam
from Canaanite myths. It seems so contemporary to the period of the Hebrews
origin, so I am curious whether there is an historical connection, or if there is
not. I would reason that this might stir up controversy, but if there is no
possible connection, it should be proven.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_%28god%29
In any case it is a wonderful mystery. I love ancient myths.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 1:19 PMI don't know the answer to the "origin" of YHVH, other than the first time I know of that the name entered the actual texts with Moses on Mt. Sinai... (Exodus 3) when the Lord tells Moses to tell the people that "I am" (written Yud Hey Vav Hey) has sent you.
And how self-referential that you ask about the origin of YHVH, when it has also been translated as meaning "origin".
That's very oroboric of you! :) -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 9:43 PMSome links:
kabbalaheditions.com/Kab%20Chap%201.pdf
religiouscrossroads.tribe.net/thr...923e
I am familiar with the idea of YHVH being traditionally associated with Chockmah.
There are other interpretations. Lately I had been more interested in Ehieh, or the
extent to which those two cohabit. Since Ehieh is associated with Kether in my
understanding, does this mean particular things? Chockmah is an extreme.
Kether is in balance, on the pillar of mildness.
I am curious about histories which might become available in the future,
lost writings on clay tablets and whatnot, and whether once translated they
would state the same divine name. This would mean a continuity undeniable
going back into and before the Sumerian civilization. Yet generally their gods
are pantheist and pagan. And if the flood took place many thousands of years
ago, even thousands before the beginning of the Sumerian civilization, then
perhaps they had been some of the same information floating about then. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:46 PM
one letter for each elemental universe:
counting up from the bottom (reflection)
Y fire, H earth, V air, H water,
hebrew is the fire language.
Not to be confused with the elemental directions!
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 9:45 PMAyeh Asher Ayeh is the name given to Moses on Mt. Sinai which most translate as I AM that I AM. My sense is that this name is associated with Kether and Malchut as the I AM of spirit seeks to join the I AM of matter.
YHVH I do associate with Chochmah as I associate EL of Elohiem with Binah. The Zohar says to always remember that El belongs with YHVH as the Creation of the World (Binah), attibuted to the Eloheim is animated with the energy or spirit of YHVH (Chochmah). They are to be considered as ONE as the Shema instructs us to in "Shema Yisrael YHVH Eloheinu YHVH Echad" Hear O Israel the Lord God is One.
I like to combine EL with YHVH to form the one word of LOVE which I believe the ONE is made of yet divided in order to see it's own reflection in ALL. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 13, 2008 - 6:20 PMAs to your second paragraph, which dualities are being paired? I have for some reason
been thinking in terms of particular sets of dualities. Some I would think are more primary
than others. Sometimes the gender aesthetic tries to intercede before in my mind before
it was created. But then consciousness would seem to be gendered, from the beginning?
Are there simpler dualities to consider first? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 7:35 PM"www.houseofbuddha.com/images/...e-A.jpg"
Interesting question. I think the duality the between Kether and Malchut (spirt and matter) plays out between Chochmah and Binah. Up/Down, Left/Right similar polarities although subtle differences in that Chochmah I view as "pitcher" and Binah as "catcher". -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 7:50 PMWhoops - sorry for the Buddha image that was in answer to another thread. I was trying to answer your question regarding duality.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 12:33 PMI am that I am also has a possible reading as future tense, I am what I WILL BE. The aleph beginning marks first person future in Hebrew, and this interpretation has been discussed in rabbinic literature. Interesting, the yud beginning can mark third person future, and there is a way to (mis/)read YHVH as the future of to be, indicating this name contains future existence. This is consistent with the World to Come, which also can be interpreted as the world that is coming, as in the future that approaches you as you live your life.
None of this reflects directly on the origins of the tetragammaton name directly, but perhaps gives some sense of the spiritual origins if not the historical.
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 3:45 AM"This is consistent with the World to Come"
Here, or in a higher reality?
I personally find it funny the Christian idea of resurrection.
That's a lot of mouths to feed. We already have starving millions.
What would it be to add in some resurrectees? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 4:05 AMBoth. That is, the world to come is often taken as the next life, the time after history ends and the Messiah comes, etc. But in the Kabbalah tradition it is also understood more subtly, closer to the world that is coming (toward us from the future), meaning here. But in Kabbalah, as below so above and vice verse. If here, then also in higher realities.
I'm not so familiar with resurrection in Christianity besides that claimed for Jesus. I am more familiar with the rising of the dead prophesied at the time of the messiah in Judaism, which I think that the Christian end-timers borrow as well. In Judaism the dead rise and have a big family reunion after the end of history, all needs you speak of being in historical time. That is, it comes when Creation moves into the Higher Reality of Creator. Hunger, war, etc., would be no more, in that view.
Yes there is a relationship between the Canaanite El and the Hebrew tradition. Of course each thread in a tapestry goes through the whole tapestry, nothing arises outside of contexts. But when that El shifts from One of Many to the One over Many to the One and Only I think is more obscured. Likely it arose in overlapping pockets of belief, some retaining the older view, some adopting the newer ones, until monotheism emerged as more dominant. While some view this as occurring as part of a shift from matriarchal to patriarchal society, that particular view goes back only to the 19th Century and is not as well supported by either anthropology or archeology as its proponents would like to claim. Still, it is as good a theory as any I suppose.
It all seems more like a confluence of streams feeding into a larger and larger river. The more the river flows, the harder to distinguish the origins of any particular current, let alone drop of water. And then, once it hits the sea...
Flow into peace, my friends.
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, February 12, 2009 - 11:35 AMI subsequently saw Steven Colbert echo this idea of mine that having physical
resurrectees on this planet would be making things more difficult. I guess God
or Jesus would feed them, no? That looks once again like we would be asking
for more of the same, only desiring that some outside agency take care of the
logistics. Obviously I feel we all may have already experienced that spiritual
resurrection in Heaven. The general strand of literalism was about this world,
and over-attachment to physicality, while all the time we were trying to convince
ourselves while we were here that the other place truly existed.
I would call that place Tiphareth in Assiah. It's the best I can do right now.
So, do we need to achieve the end of the world in order to get everyone there?
Or do we need to just convince them it truly exists, but not exactly here?
This is the land of mistakes, where short lives are had.
There is no reason we could not have some great length of eternity in Heaven
prior to coming back to this place for another short life.
I always thought that the general Christian idea of one short singular life here
got you forever in Heaven, never to come back here to party again, but maybe
that arises from some general sense of desperation, or because some have
been endlessly reincarnating without taking the time to see what they were doing.
This place is far too attractive. For all the wrong reasons. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, February 12, 2009 - 11:39 AM"I always thought that the general Christian idea of one short singular life here
got you forever in Heaven, never to come back here to party again, but maybe
that arises from some general sense of desperation, or because some have
been endlessly reincarnating without taking the time to see what they were doing."
I meant to say that idea was unbalanced.
I would like to come back many times, mix it up, hardship can be fun, if only
this place weren't so darned screwed-up.
So I meant to say, " I always thought that the idea of one short life here and then Heaven
forever and never coming back is a bit unbalanced." There. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, August 14, 2009 - 8:22 PMAll right, screw all this trash...
Is the Hebrew language the end-all be-all of existence?
Does God speak only Hebrew? Why, when trying to research all the letters in their arrangements on various trees, does one inevitably find a stopping point? A point beyond which one cannot ascertain what higher realities are? Why is this human story so damn confused?
WHAT IS ALL THAT CRAP ABOUT 'UNBALANCED FORCE'?
Is it spiritual force, or physical force? What is physical force? Why (again) in Golden Dawn version do were have Taurus (Heirophant) (one of the four fixed signs assigned to the specific tarot cards where it shows up, all of them fixed [Chokmah in Assiah being the Mazzaloth, the Zodiac, two dimensional, of course!]) running from Chokmah to Chesed, the God-name of which is EL, whereas we have the Emperor card (Aries/ Cardinal Fire) right at the time in history when YHVH made a miraculous re-appearance?
Did the Nephilim not come from God, or not?
Where else could they have come from?
Does someone have a 'seperate kingdom' set up?
How can we expect that the Hebrew language should be able to explain all of existence, out in the universe surrounding us, and wherever else? Doesn't that sound too limited, too fragmented an approach? There were languages prior to Hebrew, and likely Sumerian was of some uncertain origin, but having only weak linguistic ties to Akkadian, the father tongue of Hebrew. Did not Terah live in Ur (as if I care)?
Ur of the 'Chaldees'?
What happened to cause God (whatever part in this closed system we might be talking about, Malakim meaning Kings, how long will we need kings?) to send something down to kleen up the trash? Were the battles in the Near East not about owning this earth rather than about Sex?
How did everything get to be about 'knowing' angels, a la Lot and Sodom?
What if the Nephilim actually existed, did we draw them into existence, with our need to be directed by physicalized gods?
Or was this their decision? What happens when some agency defies the rules, steps down, and becomes addicted to rule over the tiniest plot of land?
Does this sort of evil fester, get handed down generation after generation, in all the 'begots'?
It's not of this order of being, so for whatever reason, it may not really be happy being here.
Or it is a crutch, to explain away the immoral actions of man.
Are there people (fallen angels) locked down in the earth, like the Book of Enoch says, or is this superstition?
When in Kabbalah it is stated that Baal and Lilith and others are the princely demons of Hell, does this not amount to what I just stated above?
Is Malkuth 'Greedy'? Does it like to die, and steal souls? Is that the nature of 'The Devil'?
Isn't that just a cop-out?
Now, is each opposing Pillar masculine and feminine?
Are the Sephiroth themselves masculine or feminine?
Is that Bullshit? Is Binah feminine? Or is it Form?
Does Binah at the level fo Assiah (whatever, I don't really care, I'll destroy this bullshit!) not contain both male and female? Yin and Yang?
What does that make Chokmah at Assiah then?
Have we ordered these higher levels too much, do the angels want to be human, do we wish to trap them only to destroy them here, with our pathetic selves, which wish to die and restart things over? Why do the Christians believe a man created this universe? How do Sophia and Ialtabaoth figure in?
Is God just someone to carry others sins? Is Jesus? Is that the only reason such exists at all? Just a big converter, to make people happy, for a short moment, until the kill for profit again?
On that point: Vices and Virtues~~~ Binah Vice of Greed; Geburah--- Vice of Cruelty, Destruction---Hod, Vice of Dishonesty, Lies, *Deceit* (shall I mention Samael, Sakla [the Blind god] THE MAGIC TRIFECTA OF EVIL. Profiting off warfare and death while lying about it.
What happens to those people? Does Hell exist yet? What is the difference between Sheol and Hell?
I have a lot more to say, but I know no one give a shit, least of all me, and if we think we can 're-create' our closed-in existence, I hope the power hungry are left in the dust by everyone who doesn't want *any* part of it. Very lonely existence for them.
I thought perhaps that it might be good, for those who are thoroughly addicted to human form, if their women could not conceive until one of them died. Therefore no need for any issuance of new souls into that reality. They can have their world, never get off it, and their heaven, and when one died, he would go to heaven *for the exact same thing he experieced on earth, but more and better of it*, and then he gets thrust back into a human body, among people who all think alike, on a world that goes nowhere, which is scheduled for destruction. So it can be remade. So, the same lives, over and over, and over and over and over and over... No outside viewpoints allowed!
I think it all needs to die permanently. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, August 14, 2009 - 9:14 PMSo what is Daath? Is it a portal to the 'backside of the Tree'?
THERE IS NO BACKSIDE OF THE TREE. Shut up, dumb world.
It's just imbalanced. Why is everyone looking for love, if not to rebalance the ethical triangle?
Huge amount of destruction, but no sex, thanks to the severe separation caused by Christian 'ethics'?
Everyone is either guilty about the way sex has gone of late, or wants to kill someone because of it.
Because so many don't get any. Guess why? Ratrace, greed.
So, Netzach and Hod, both 'hermaphrodites'.
Lust we will admit to, as men (since we insist on seeing God as male, Binah as female, the bottom of those pillars for us at least in this most myopic sense must be in some sense attributable to human sex), but if it is supposed to resolve itself in Yesod, why the Lies at Hod, at the bottom of the 'female pillar'?
Wear the tightest clothes, youngsters, see what men do.
We have taught women to hide the fact that they have sexual impulse. They were, according to Genesis, to desire their men, and have pain in childbirth. Sounds like a lame patriarchal view to me. Fine, to a degree, while we could safely continue to propagate like proverbial rabbits. But 'not so much' now. So, subconsciously... women don't want to have any more babies.. Age of the Goddess, huh?
We are so superficial. Women and men. But women complain all the time about the media view of their bodies.
Men, for the most part, don't really care much. May exercise, but lipstick and over-sexualization? No.
This world was not meant to be some kind of orgy. We were to rise up in love of one another, single person to single person, in the right way, to some undeclared heights (I no longer give a shit!), then come down again to exchange, *within the span of another lifetime* for another, *as long as so many wanted to remain human, and sexual*. If there is no place to come back to, no 'coming down'. If it is a shithole because of rampant greed, then why bother?
So, why would anyone believe that God is human? Why? I saw some ignoramus declare that Elohim is God. Steven?
I'll tell you why: so that prophets down through the ages could be councelled by 'Satan'. A physicallized representation of the Qliphoth.
Never believe the Qliphoth. Good thing no one knows shit these days. And can't see beyond their bodies. Actually, never could.
"Father', 'Son', and 'Holy Ghost'. A family. Not the same as AHIH, YHVH, and Elohim.
Unless you tend to think AHIH is human. Ehieh, I mean. Is Metatron human?
See why I say this seems to be some sort of closed-in system?
If all this was created by some Ialtabaoth creature, a person representing some agglomeration of human knowledge, and it goes in a damned loop, is even that human? Did it create this useless universe we will never explore because we 're gonna blow this place up due to our warring natures, greed, need to dominate, so on? Could that even be seen as a human individual? Two sides of Daath: Confidence, and Cowardice, to be simple. I think of the qliphotic side of Daath to be akin to just 'information', sans personality.
And to go back to Sophia: Binah at Assiah, thinking it is only a human female, creates without consort? Where do the Vices begin on the Tree? Right... there... The Futility of Kether's 'Dual Contending Forces' being a misnomer? Wait a minute... did the Qliphoth begin in Atziluth?
See what I'm saying? Fence it off, it's thoroughly dead already. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, August 14, 2009 - 9:19 PMWe are the most chauvinistic species to ever exist. Don't ever any of you ever doubt it!
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 1:35 PMIt is not pronounced thus. One receives initiation from within, that is if one is to survive with the 144000. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 4:35 PMI don't believe in that number. But you can. I was saying when in archaeological history did
the notion of this all-over God arise? Since the Hebrews have a love-hate relationship with
Sumeria/Babylonia, and yet they derived much of genesis and other elements from that
culture, one has to say that at some particular time did the close classification of the all-god
as being YHVH did occur. Prior to that time Sumeria/Akkadia/Babylonia was pagan (had many
gods, foremost of which was Anu, though some arguments surround that notion).
What I wished to do in this tread was trace the evolution of that divine name to see *when*
in objective history it arose. Perhaps too fervent worship occludes such research and consideration
from occuring here. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 1:34 AMI don't think there is an exact archaeological date for the emergence of monotheism, which seems to be what you are asking. YHVH is but one of several names associated with the early Hebrews' conception of One God. Your asking about that name led in a different direction. The God El is probably earlier than YHVH and is likely the source of "no other Gods before me," which does not say no other Gods, but El is above all. El I understand was worshiped by "pagans" who believed in more than one God.
The religious tradition is that Abraham's father was a maker of idols, so at least allegorically the story seems to suggest that about 6,000 years ago the shift began, although likely there were strains of monotheism in the context. The Biblical story also tells that Rachel took her father's idols when Jacob led them back to Esau's / Isaac's land. That suggests that even among the Hebrews, monotheism co-existed with idol worship and paganism.
The archaeological record is much less clear. The oldest actual fragments of Biblical texts are only a little over 2,000 years old. The texts are not historical documents, and likely tell allegorical stories for the purpose of cultural memory and spiritual instruction.
When you phrase the question about a specific name, though, you change the nature of the question. YHVH begins in the Biblical text at Sinai, but other Names are given the One God earlier in the story. Likely these names provide more historical insight into the rise of monotheism--El and Eloheinu in particular. Eloheinu is the Name used in Genesis. El appears less often, but as I've been told, derives from other religions in Canaan, possibly Phoenician or earlier. But where does one find an archaeological record for a name, likely passed on through oral tradition?
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 3:42 AMThat's why I asked about the connection to the Canaanite EL.
Which is near to Sumerian ELLIL/ENLIL.
The Hebrew tradition did not evolve in a vacuum.
Many such interesting ideas arise when one looks at the larger picture.
I'll post even more controversial threads later. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 9:16 AM"That's why I asked about the connection to the Canaanite EL.
Which is near to Sumerian ELLIL/ENLIL.
The Hebrew tradition did not evolve in a vacuum.
Many such interesting ideas arise when one looks at the larger picture.
I'll post even more controversial threads later. "
I imagine you are referring to all the Planet X and Sitchin stuff Wormhole. I think it's all very interesting but it seems like more dualistic mythology that our collective unconscious rattles around without making much progress in transcending to a non-dualistic view.
I think the goal of Kabbalah is to do just that. Integration of the opposites - reconciling the polarities, uniting spirt and matter, male and female, mercy and severity.
If we speak in New Age terminology the historical reality can be defined as 3D, the Mythology as 4D and the Transcendance/Reconciliation of the opposities as 5D. D being dimension. Quantum physics talks of String theory which is another way of saying the same thing - looking at this stuff dimensionally - multi-dimensional that is.
In string theory these dimensions are nested into one another - similar the notion of the Tree of Life with the 10 Sephirot and similar to all of these God names as they roll up to YHVH and ultimately to the merger of spirit and matter found in Ayeh Asher Ayheh. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 3:14 PMString theory is rather unbacked up by observation.
I did not mean Planet X and such, but I could have loads to say on that subject,
having researched it thoroughly. I mean more religio-political conniving on the
ground for purposes of long-term dominance in the temporal sphere.
As I said, there is a history of squelching historical archives like
Alexandria and Nineveh for the purposes of containing humanity
and one can under some circumstances see it as a desire to preclude
the common knowledge of some potential gnostic truths. I just dig away
and offer up. I have no predilection to side one way or the other. I am rather impartial.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 8:55 AMMichael,
YHVH surfaces much earlier than Sinai. Genesis 2:4 to be exact - just after the Eloheim (the creator gods) created the earth and all things, etc. In that verse, the name YHVH Eloheim is used to say that "These are the products of heaven and the earth when they were created on the day that YHVH Eloheim made earth and heaven". This is then to say that although the creator gods did the work YHVH was the director so to speak. YHVH is the God above all gods and is associated with Chochmah on the Tree of Life while El or the Eloheim is associated with Binah IMO.
Ayeh Asher Ayeh is the God name encountered at Sinai and associated with Kether (as well as Malchut IMO as it is a marriage of spirit and matter as Moses is told he is on "holy ground" and a bush is animated with the non-consuming flame).
Monotheism isn't really contained within the text of Genesis I must say. If anything, we are given a sense of many names and aspects of God although we are also being made aware that All is One.
In terms of what came first EL or YHVH - I'm not sure that can be determined. It is true that that El shows up in ancient cultures. I think if anything though this denotes a shift between the polarity of the YHVH-EL dynamic. I really don't think that one was ever without the other. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 3:09 PMI meant really extra-Biblical sources. A perspective outside the self-referential. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 12:51 PMThere can't be an origin to the source :P -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 6:31 AMwell where did it come from then...? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:13 AMThat's is an infinite loop - have you ever experienced a computer crash ? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 2:31 PMyes I have had many system and hardware failures...
but loops are finite aren't they...?
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 9:09 PMIf you are walking along the shore of a round island you will never reach an end.. until your system crashes (if you don't stop to eat and rest)... -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, August 1, 2008 - 12:48 AMa hamster running in a wheel doesn't make the wheel or the cage or the hamster infinite... -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, August 1, 2008 - 12:10 PMIf the hampster kept running forever that would be infiinite but as already said he will collapse sooner of later... seems much more fun to just jump off the damn wheel and have some of that yummy cheese :) -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, August 2, 2008 - 5:37 AMthe obesity and blocked arteries option...? -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, August 2, 2008 - 5:14 PMOK guys. I meant that historically, it happened in some fashion,
but that Yair is in true and effect correct. It really matters that we
work to agree on what *has* occured, and how we see it.
The notion of trying to see what went before God is as easy
or worthwhile to do from a spiritual perspective as is the idea
of multiple universes, or Brane space, or whatever they call it.
God is consciousness, and doing the work to organize ideas
on how that consciousness both diverged to create more
faces, but also maintained in order to have complete perspective
on all that way done is very difficult and at times may ruffle feathers
if revealed in public and is misunderstood. I believe in God, and
essentially (I've said this before) I don't need to apply particular names,
but I have found the Kabbalistic method to be the best one to take me the
farthest, and it includes the Hebrew history, and a very specific name.
Now what I really meant by all this was *why* did God's emergence
(re?)occur here on this planet at a particular time? Some thoughts
may or may not be the best to follow, and I definitely do not want
people to lose belief, I want people to strengthen and add dimension
to belief. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 9:07 AMPerhaps consciousness or glimpses of God or some aspect or name arise as the need or desire from them arises or perhaps as the ability to grasp the consciousness or the looking to see the glimpse are present. I've heard it explained as analogous to human development of the individual--speech and naming are abilities that come at certain points, Piaget suggests that cognitive ability develops as our body / brain / (spirit) do, etc. So, perhaps, humanity as singular developing consciousness reached a point where this was possible. The name might well have been whispering for us to hear, until we could hear it.
One interesting discussion of the Burning Bush is that the Bush was there burning all along. Many people walked by, but didn't notice. Moses stopped a moment, paused, noticed that the bush burned but was not consumed. Then God spoke, knowing that a human (humanity) could now hear.
Well, who knows? -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, August 4, 2008 - 11:27 AMWhat you say could very well be. We were not there in our current selves, we take these stories on faith.
Of course they are more than just stories to me. I employ kabbalah to continue to open the mind.
As each sephirah is worked on, new internal potencies open up to one. A good example is the
difference between Hod and Netzach. In Hod we discuss our ideas about existence and God,
making great effort to spell out everything in great detail, whereas in Netzach if we try hard
we can achieve emotional catharsis that itself is communication, and is indeed from our
end of the Tree a more elevated mode of consciousness. Perhaps balancing these two,
like balancing any of the opposites, allows us to increase our enlightened awareness.
Actually I know it to be true, but it is difficult to see outside of the individual's perception. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, August 5, 2008 - 1:34 AMI like to think outside of binaries. I agree with you, but rather than balancing opposites (which I think is our culturally learned limitation of perception), I like to think of the triads in the Tree.
There are of course (more than?) 138 Gates (Openings) to Wisdom (Rav Luzzato's book).
PaRDeS is a great teaching tool for "normal" literacy, as well. I sometimes refer to it when teaching writing (critical reading, dialogue). -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, August 5, 2008 - 11:59 AMYes, all those ideas apply. Diagrams of multiple geometries. Only so much can be expressed in any
given moment. I have not been spending much time doing more esoteric reading, but actually working
it in the mind and through the emotions. I'll check on your stated author. There is so much worthwhile
reading on the net, often I will just go back through what I've bookmarked. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, August 6, 2008 - 4:07 AMThe author I mentioned is Ramchal, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, 18th C. Italian philosopher, kabbalist, rabbi. I don't know how much of his writing is on the web, though.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, August 28, 2008 - 1:00 AMmonotheism also arose in egypt around akhenaton. I'm nt sure what the timing of that was and what the god's name was, but it has been suggested that jewish monotheism originated in egypt and came with the hebrews when they left egypt. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, August 28, 2008 - 2:11 AMAkhenaten died around 1335 b.c.e. after a 16-year reign. The enslavement supposedly began around 1430 b.c.e and the Exodus began around 1313 b.c.e. However Jewish monotheism supposedly began with Abraham around 500 years earlier. The first person to propose the link between Jewish monotheism and Akhenaton was Sigmund Freud, not a anthropologist or sociologist or even a linguist.
IMO what is more likely is that it was the "judges" (or more accurately, wise leaders) who united a wide variety of tribes, each with their own deities, into one political element. See "Jewish Festivals" by Hayyim Schauss. in one of her books on the Kabalah, Leonora Leet points out that the wording of the Sh'ma indicates not a spiritual declaration, but a political statement that the different deities were one, thus uniting the tribes with a single theological system. The stories before the judges were common throughout the Middle East but adapted to fit what would become the Jewish theology. The period of the judges is about 1245 b.c.e to 890 b.c.e., so it's possible that they picked up concepts of monotheism from Egypt, but unlikely as the rulers who followed Akhenaten tried to wipe out all references to him. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, August 29, 2008 - 12:02 PMIt's all contemporaneous in that fashion then. In whatever fashion, it has always been
a condition of correcting and evolving humanity's values, using theology as that unifying principle.
What I do find now thought is that because all of our ideations center around God being a reflection
of humanity (Adam Kadmon/ having human form) the popular esoteric idea of God is somewhat stymied
in being cogitated upon as being human. We have the evidence of the universe, all of which is likely
not populated by humans or human-like knockoffs. Yet we would like to have that God be identified
as the God of everything in this universe. If other 'forms' totally unlike our own and having different
'mental pictures'/qabalistic schematics than our exist, aren't we being rather arrogant in saying
that they must all identify with our God.? And isn't that fact then that God must evolve? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, August 29, 2008 - 1:21 PMNo, God, by definition is etermal. Eternal does not mean "lives forever," as many people think. Rather, it means "outside of time." For anything to evolve, it must do so over time. Since God is outside of time, God does not evolve.
However, what does evolve is our understanding of the nature of God. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, August 30, 2008 - 5:06 AMso is god out of time as in he/she/it missed the deadline...?
and what do you mean by evolve...?
I mean my interpretation of evolution is like variable adaptation to conditions...
so...
for me my understanding of god is conditional...
when there is bad shit god is diabolical...
if nice stuff happens then god is cool...
when the nice stuff gets taken away god is taking the piss...
so I reckon there should be different names or at least different intonations for dealing with these vaious aspects... -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, August 30, 2008 - 10:37 PMNot "out" of time. Outside of time. God exists outside of what we experience as linear time.
Evolve=change.
God does not adapt to conditions. For there to be anything to adapt to there must be time to do so, and God exists outside of time.
The concept of "bad shit" and "nice stuff" is simply your interpretation placed on events. There is not good or bad save that you make it so. There simply is.
The different names/aspects help us begin to understand the totality of the godhead. They are things we need to try and understand. They are a map, and the map is not the territory.
If you throw out some food onto your yard, if ants could mentate they might think you are a beneficent god. If you trip and smash their hill, they might think you are a demon. But you are neither except in their attempt to understand you, and that attempt falls far short of the reality. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 4:25 AMbut doesn't that make all of it utterly pointless...?
I as an ant perceive things on scales of individual ant preference and disappointment...
god is out of the loop...
other ants are speaking on behalf of a god (or whatever) that is out of the loop to maintain an ant system...
I am insignificant expendable and in pain and disappointed about my condition in relation to the world and the ant colony...
so what is the YHVH name for in this out of the loop pointlessness...?
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 8:12 AMNo, God is not out of the loop. Rather we, through incarnation, are out of the loop (as indicated by the three veils of negative existence). The point becomes for us to get back into the loop or stay isolated and separated. It is that isolation and separation that is the curse of incarnation, with incarnation being the blessing of God. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 8:42 AMcool lets see if I can get past some blocks here...
god is outside of time...
could one say something like outside the solid impermanence of time...?
anyway that is besides the point...
so incarnation...
biological meat existence...
how does this exist within time and within constraints...
and what about death...?
and what are these three veils...?
is there a point to any of this or is it simply an arrangement of how things are...? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 10:46 AM"is there a point to any of this or is it simply an arrangement of how things are...?"
Good site here that postulates on some of your queries..
www.kabbalahsociety.org/
In this scheme humanity has a special function and that is to act as a conscious organ of perception for the Absolute. Mankind is an extension of Adam Kadmon. Adam and Eve, after their descent from the Garden of Eden, put on coats of skin, symbolising incarnation. They now had to rise from the physical level, through the medium of evolution, towards self-realisation. The aim of this operation is to experience every level of Existence, so that God may behold God through human perception. This is possible because mankind, unlike other creatures, can enter all four worlds.
According to Kabbalah, men and women contain all the worlds within themselves; they are the microcosm of Existence and therefore can gain access to and operate beyond material reality. Human imagination and reason can penetrate to the smallest particle of matter and reach out to the most distant galaxy as well as have visions of Paradise and the seven Heavens. The Kabbalah considers the study of humanity at both the collective and individual level vital for its development as the agent of the Absolute. As one sage observed; "If one wishes to know about what is above, then observe what occurs below. The lower and higher worlds operate on the same principles."
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 11:53 PMHi, Orpheus.
Okay, let me try to give an analogy.
Draw a circle. Inside of that circle are all of the things that relate to human existence. Birth, maturation, death. Eating and defecating. Learning and growth. Evolution. Living within linear time.
Now, draw two larger circles outside of this one. They should be concentric so they have the same central point. These are the three veils of negative existence which we establish in order to life efficiently within linear time.
Outside of those circles is God. We set up the blockages that prevent us from comprehending God to the fullest.
It has nothing to do with the "solid impermanence of time."
Is this "how things are?" No, it's just a map. The map is not the territory. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 3:16 AM3 concentric circles...
here we be...
inside circle one is eat and defecate forms recycling and changing in linear time...
this is veil one in a veilic trinity obscuring god comprehension...
so what are the other two veils...? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 7:52 AMThey are all three simply veils.
Veils that our reality creates.
It's a map only. An analogy. A metaphor.
The map is not the reality, it is only a representation of the reality.
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 9:22 AMOK, I was going to post some ideas as to this that for some reason tribe would not allow me to.
I don't know if I should try to repost them. Chockmah is male (Abba) Father. Split from Amma
somehow I feel that this causes a kink in that energy/force line coming from Kether and the
Unmanifest. So long as we think of God as solely human in reflection and/or male, there will be
problems on larger scales. I realize that Chockmah is regarded as beyond time, and in some
forms of Kabbalah Chronos/Saturn is associated with Binah, therefore I wonder what connection
can be made between that first principle located at Chockmah, and the Ain Sof and such, and why
Kether and Ehieh stand between them, and why some think of Ehieh that it means "will be" rather
than "am". -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 9:32 AMIn other words, why have God be located both at Chockmah, and beyond the Three Veils?
And admittedly to place God at Chockmah is to in some senses make God dualistic; lacking
the pairing principle. But God beyond the three veils at least schematically does not.
I realize also that there are both the personified and archetypal/ impersonal representations
of God. I obviously prefer the idea of God not being "split", but in some senses to get away
from Malkuth/Assiah is to be more ''male'/positive, since you are 'moving' higher and each
sephiroth is male/positive to the one it emanates... anyone following me, or muct I explicate further? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 10:33 AM"In other words, why have God be located both at Chockmah, and beyond the Three Veils?
And admittedly to place God at Chockmah is to in some senses make God dualistic; lacking
the pairing principle. "
God is All that Is. Chochmah represents the energy force that permeates/animates matter Binah. YHVH is associated with this Force as the Elohim is associated with Binah. Time is associated with Binah as well and Saturn is the right association IMO. The beginning is mentioned in Genesis and it is the Elohim that creates within it.
A creative dilemma occurs as the One divides itself to see it Itself and be reconciled back to it Oneness. Kether is associated with Ayeh-asher-Ayeh - its spiritual I AMness - Oneness prior to it's Tzim Tzum or creating the space through illusionary separation to see itself.
This separation and reunification takes place at each of the seven layers of Sephirot (and the four worlds) culminating in Malchut where Creation seemingly reaches its pinnacle of material I AMness.
When the material I AM can comprehend and reconnect with the spiritual I AM than flow occurs and the cognition of the Shema. All is One and One is All. At least that's the way I view it. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 11:00 AMHere is another way of saying this as given in channeled material of Seth
www.geocities.com/n4awi/seth12.htm
ALL THAT IS
Seth: "If you prefer, you can call the supreme psychic gestalt God, but you should not attempt to objectify him. What you call God is the sum of all consciousness, and yet the whole is more than the sum of Its parts."
"[It] is not one individual, but an energy gestalt. (It) is a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever expanding consciousness, that creates simultaneous and instantaneously, universes and individuals that are given duration, psychic comprehension, intelligence and eternal validity. Its energy is so unbelievable that is does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls."
"Dimly remembered through what you would call history, there was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known. All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. All That Is had to learn this lesson, and could not be taught. From this agony, creativity was originally drawn, and its reflection is still seen. All That Is retains the memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus toward renewed creativity. Desire, wish and expectation, therefore, rule all actions and are the basis for all realities. Within the dreams of All That Is, potential beings had Consciousness before any beginning as you know it."
"All That Is saw an infinity of probable, conscious individuals. These Probable individual selves found themselves alive within a God's dream And they clamored to be released into actuality. All That Is yearned to release them and sought within itself for the means to do so. Finally, with love and longing It let go of that portion of itself, and they were free. The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation."
"All That Is loves all that It has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state of agony. It is triumphant and joyful at each development taken by each consciousness, and It revels and takes joy in the slightest creative act of each of Its issues."
"All individuals remember their source, and now dream of All That Is as It once dreamed of them. And they yearn toward that immense source...and yearn to give it actuality through their own creations."
"The connections between you and All That Is can never be severed, and Its awareness is so delicate and focused that its attention is indeed directed with a prime creator's love to each consciousness."
"All That Is knows no other. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like Itself may exist. It is constantly searching."
"There are answers to some questions that I cannot give you about the origin of All That Is, for they are not known anywhere in the system in which we have our existence."
"All portions of All That Is are constantly changing. All That Is is constantly seeking to know Itself, for seeking itself is a creative activity and the core of all action."
"You, as a consciousness, seek to know yourself and become aware of yourself as a distinct individual portion of All That Is. You automatically draw on the overall energy of All That Is, since your existence is dependent upon it. The portion of All That Is that is aware of itself as you, that is focused within your existence, can be called upon for help when necessary. This portion of All That Is looks out for your interests and may be called upon in a personal manner. A psychic gestalt may seem impersonal to you, but its energy forms your person."
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 11:20 AMWell then, if merely because in most systems God (YHVH) is located at Chockmah, yet the god-name
of Binah started physical creation within time, then all the various systems of belief, Jewish, Christian
and otherwise start to make some sense. Most want to have an eschatology of spiritual existence
rather than a physical immortality, and yet many, let us call them 'simpler', eschatologies rely upon
a physical, or 'form'-based afterlife. Also I am drawn to the thought that El, at least in pagan systems
of belief, was male, from human perception of the time. This stirs up a bunch of strange ideas.
I understand the proper implications of a unified, non-material God, but unfortunately I am plagued
by non-Kabbalistic reasonings (Christian and such) due to upbringing, nearby society and such factors.
I explore that edge of meaning also, even to the extent to resolve those differences in belief, to see if
that can bring at least societal unification. Again, "as above, so below"... -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 11:29 AMThere are sooo many systems of God-names and Paths on the Tree that it is easy to become confused.
I learned a system where EL was at Chesed, and Elohim was at Binah. Lately even on this site I have
found many different trees that place names elsewhere. I have looked at sites off tribe that show a confusion
of names strewn all over the tree. One I saw (I am unsure of the group, don't want to misspeak at the moment
as to who it was) placed YHVH at tifaret. I find these things unsettling. This was one of the 'lodges' that on the
surface I believe states itself to be Christian. At least western, at least non-Jewish, so far as I remember.
So it appears to me that there being so many systems causes someone like me (willing to review them all)
to make the assumption, however wrong, that knowledge has been lost and to view the sum as being somewhat
garbled. Though of course it (the rearranging of names) does facilitate other thoughts. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 11:34 AMOne way of looking at is that YHVH is the vowel and El is the consonant. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 12:34 PMAleph Lamed.
A ~~~~ L
Ox ~~~ Ox-Goad.
The Fool ~~~~ Justice.
Even then break down the names of the letters, if you want to ...
(being a neophyte as far as literacy in Hebrew I won't bother.
Most languages have simpler names concerning the letters...
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 5:02 PMWormhole Chaarlie wrote: "There are sooo many systems of God-names and Paths on the Tree that it is easy to become confused."
Yes. You're absolutely correct. But I would suggest that is because you're trying to make the map (the Tree of Life) the territory (God). It is not. It's just a map.
I can draw numerous maps of the same territory. They can feature different aspects. They all help in understanding the territory, but they are not the territory.
Find a map that helps you get from here to there. Forget the rest. That doesn't make the others wrong or your's "right." It just makes that one the best for your usage.
The real goal is moving away from the map and to the territory. Looking at the map won't get you there. It's only a starting point. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 7:19 AMso the map is not the territory seems to imply that the word is not god...
and we are seperated from god only by our own ignorance...
which could suggest that god is anything but the word...
and that suggests that god created or is created to some extent by our ignorance and pain etc...
and all we can do with our ignorance and pain is make speculative fictions that keep things moving along speculatively and probably pointlessly...
so for example santiago de compostela was apparently built on an invented myth to fulfill a political movement of the people as a rome of the west...
then legend also says that the xtian myth was superimposed on a goddess place of cult - but anyway what got built there is a big church with decor that implies man trying to locate himself in the cosmic order...
so this would seem arbritrary and expedient as an example of a myriad trails and mysteries with at best the vaguest of religious/occult pretexts to extend political influence...
absurd and futile except you've got to do something within the carnate timebound condition...
so anyway...
toothache...
is it somehow implied that my current toothache and the other hideous suffering that has and continues to go on in this veil of tears is somehow both absurd and futile but also an irresistible aspect of divine destiny...
or to get more to the point how do I create a kabalist map to a decent dentist...?
I mean dissing deity's name is what I feel like doing but is probably not going to help my cause... hahaha -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 9:47 AM"so the map is not the territory seems to imply that the word is not god... "
Not sure how you draw that conclusion. From a Christian perspective John's Gospel declares "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is the NASB translation there are other but all of them refer to the beginning which in the post prior I had suggested that Elohim was the God being referred to in association with Time (the beginning).
The Sepher Yetizrah en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_Yetzirah has this to say about the matter:
With 32 mystical paths of Wisdom
Engraved Yah
The Lord of Hosts
The God of Israel
The living God
King of the universe
El Shaddai
Merciful and Gracious
High and Exalted
Dwelling in eternity
Whose name is Holy –
He is lofty and holy –
And he created His universe with three books (Sepharim),
With text (Sepher)
With number (Sephar)
And with communication (Sippur).
Sepher Yetzirah 1: 1
And in 1:12
Four: Fire from Water
With it He engraved and carved
The Throne of Glory
Serafim, Ophanim, and holy Chayot
And Ministering angels
From these three [Mother letters] he founded His dwelling.
Sepher Yetzirah 1:12 [Brackets mine]
It is explained that the three Mother letters in all of their combinations and permutations are able to “become earth.”
We are told He engraved it and carved it himself.
Chapter 2 Verse 2 tells us:
Twenty-two Foundation letters:
He engraved them, He carved them.
He permuted them. He weighed them.
And with them, He depicted all that was formed
And all that would be formed.
Sepher Yetzirah, 2:2
What all of this says is that the Word is Thought - Vibrational represented in the Fire letters of the Hebrew aleph-bet. Used in the various God names as archetypical conscioussness used to serve this notion of Return from the Illusion of Separation.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 10:14 AMOrpheus, the concept of the word being God is a Christian concept and not a Kabalistic one. The Tanach makes clear that God USES sound (word) for creation, not that God IS sound.
Respectfully, from your post, perhaps it is true that all YOU can do is be ignorant and in pain and move along speculatively and pointlessly...if that is what you want to do.
It is clear that many Christian religious sites were built on Pagan holy sites, and that many Pagan traditions were absorbed into Christianity so that people wishing to worship the older gods would have to go to Christian sites and be told that if they wanted to worship there they had to worship the Christian god.
A toothache is not "hideous suffering." That is only your interpretation of sensation. I would assume that a map to a dentist would be on pages that are yellow in color, suggesting a potential correspondence to the balance and wholeness of Tiferet. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 12:03 PMwe seem to be a bit divided here...
the map is not the territory and the map is the territory...
I mean obviously I equate map to word as a general term for symbollic reference...
so what are you actually trying to say...?
you enjoy toothache...?
christians are not part of the divine plan...?
you actually know and are positively connected to the prime source of god going boo and the subsequent divine will manifesting this veiled world in a conscious and creative way...?
and I'm not... hahaha
tell me more... hahaha -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 12:13 PM"I mean obviously I equate map to word as a general term for symbollic reference... "
That's the problem - Word is not symbol in Kabbalah or metaphysical constructs for that matter. Word is energy - thought - power. Here is a little snippet from my book.
"Returning to examine scriptural references to orbs, animals and floods, I decided it would be important to solve the riddle of Noah’s Ark in regard to the size and dimensions presented in the Bible. In the Biblical text, the length of the Ark is defined as 300 cubits. In the Kabbalah Gematria system, that equates Hebrew letters into numbers and numbers into letters, 300 translates to the letter shin. The width of the Ark then is 50 cubits, which converts to the letter nun. The height of the Ark is 30 cubits, which converts to the letter lamed.
The first obvious connection between these numerical dimensions and the spoken word is that the letters shin, nun and lamed form the root of the word lashon, which means, tongue or language.
The famous Hasidic Rabbi, the Ba’al Shem Tov (the Good Name), said Noah’s Ark, called teivah in Hebrew, contained a microcosm of all creation. Besides meaning ark, teivah also means “word.” The Rabbi explains that God’s directive to Noah to “enter the ark” is also a directive to all mankind to enter the “word.” Every word that we think and speak should be holy whether they are words of Torah, prayer or even seemingly mundane words spoken to create union with another soul. The universal consciousness of all of creation – mankind and the entire animal kingdom – should permeate every word that we speak.
The letters shin and nun mean the eternal flame and messiah, heir to the throne, respectively. The letters associated to the Ark through Gematria indicate the Ark is indeed a place floating above the waters of creation, which requires conscious participation in thought or Babel’s cycle of construction and destruction is set in motion."
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 12:23 PM"In the worlds before Monkey, primal chaos reigned. Heaven sought order. But the phoenix can fly only when its feathers are grown. The four worlds formed again and yet again, as endless aeons wheeled and passed. Time and the pure essences of Heaven, the moisture of the Earth, the powers of the Sun and the Moon all worked upon a certain rock, old as creation. And it became magically fertile. That first egg was named "Thought". Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said, "With our thoughts, we make the World". Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch. From it then came a stone monkey. The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!" -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 12:51 PM"The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!"
www.heroic-cinema.com/reviews/monkey
orpheus - Do you find Kabbalah discussion interesting or just amusing? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 1:04 PMit can be both it can be neither...
there are variables at work that don't give fixed results...
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 9:58 PMOrpheus wrote:"so what are you actually trying to say...? you enjoy toothache...? christians are not part of the divine plan...?"
No, I don't enjoy toothaches. That is my interpretation of the sensation.
Christian theology is not the Kabalah. If you wish to discuss Christian theology I'm sure you can find lots of tribes that will gladly discuss it with you.
Up at the top there is says, "tribe discussion: kabbalah"
That's what I was trying to discuss.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 11:26 PM"It is clear that many Christian religious sites were built on Pagan holy sites, and that many Pagan traditions were absorbed into Christianity so that people wishing to worship the older gods would have to go to Christian sites and be told that if they wanted to worship there they had to worship the Christian god. "
so like just who is it that is always banging on about christianity around here...? -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 11:01 AMOrpheus wrote, "so like just who is it that is always banging on about christianity around here...?"
Well, most recently Wormhole Charlie brought up Christian concepts and you brought them up. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 11:18 AMyup you'd better nail me to a cross and beat me most cruelly as it seems I did indeed mention a cathedral... hahaha -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 5:19 PMActually, Orpheus, you wrote about a church and not a cathedral. However, more importantly, you brought up the concept that "xtian myth was superimposed on a goddess place" and I was just agreeing.
As to nailing you to a cross, I'll leave that to the ancient Romans or modern Filipino fundamentalist Christians. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:37 PMIf angels were beyond distinct gender identification, then why be drawn to human females?
If tzaddi is yod and nun back to back in Yetzirah or above, then how or why would those
angels fall prey to lust? I think you are reading me too literally. Aside from the fact that we
are a bit off course as far as the thread title (or perhaps not), what does it mean for
God to have made us in *His* image? If He's beyond time? I realize that each 'higher'
sephirah is 'positive' in relation to the one it emanates. I am not insane. I hope I have
not unsettled you or made you feel like you need to defend some position. I am 'questioning'
the synthetic nature of this 'territory'. If the fallen angels or nephilim were drawn to
human women out of feelings of lust, did they leave a female essence in the lurch somewhere
up higher (Sophia)? Leaving your wife for a younger woman?
Shambhalanth, you must strive to see the humor underneath my sarcasm, sometimes.
Also, the Paths crossing the Abyss... maybe I'll start a thread on those. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:42 PMSome theories place Kether and Chockmah in Atziluth, Binah in Beriah,
then Chesed through Yesod in Yetzirah (Formation), with Malkuth being
alone in Assiah. Do you have other schematics to offer that disagree
with this presentation?
If this one above is correct, we have the third world being that which
occurs below the Abyss but above Malkuth. I have thought of other layouts... -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:46 PMSteven presented Kether as Spirit and Malkuth as Matter. In some ways, Chockmah and Binah
can be seen in the same light. Lately I have been finding a series of various such relationships
on the Tree, but that is a good one. The Pairs of Opposites are more primordial IMO, being
extremes, but K. and M. are in balance on the central pillar. I'm just exploring what this means,
and wondering what others might think. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:55 PM"Steven presented Kether as Spirit and Malkuth as Matter. In some ways, Chockmah and Binah
can be seen in the same light."
Matter takes different forms. In the Chochmah/BNinah relationship it is like white light being divided though the prism of Binah into the layers of color/sephirot below until matter is physically manifest in Malchut.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:49 PM"Some theories place Kether and Chockmah in Atziluth, Binah in Beriah,
then Chesed through Yesod in Yetzirah (Formation), with Malkuth being
alone in Assiah. Do you have other schematics to offer that disagree
with this presentation?"
My sense is there is an overlap or blurring between the Sephirot in the different worlds. Think Scorpio where the higher aspect is symbolized by the Eagle and the lower aspect by the Scorpion. The Worlds are representative of the elements - Fire, Air, Water and Earth. Each of these elements represent spirit, mind, emotion and the physical - all Sephirot play in these areas but they change in emphasis depending on the World.
Adam was created but was also formed - this is a direct clue to the morphing that occurs as we move from spirit into matter.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:42 PM"If angels were beyond distinct gender identification, then why be drawn to human females?"
Wormhole Charlie you are equating the Nephalim with Angels. Two different entities IMO. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:48 PMSo, they never were? What about such sources as the Book Of Enoch?
What then were the Nephilim? A thorough categorization might be helpful. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 9:14 PM"What then were the Nephilim?"
The Sitchen folks would say they are extraterrestrial founders of our civilization. I believe the translation though is Giants which distinguishes them from Angels. Giant could be indicative of whole lot of things so it's hard for me to speculate.
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:51 PMI could understand if these are merely misinterpretations or mistranslations from ancient Hebrew,
but Christian culture is rife with them. I can understand that many feel this is inappropriate for a
Kabbalah tribe to discuss, but it might clear the air to give definitive answers as to how Christian
theories went wrong in adopting Hebrew concepts. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 9:06 PM"I can understand that many feel this is inappropriate for a
Kabbalah tribe to discuss, but it might clear the air to give definitive answers as to how Christian
theories went wrong in adopting Hebrew concepts."
Christian theories adopted "Christian" concepts. In other words concepts dictated by the Catholic Church based on canonized text and narrow interpretation.
Hebrew "concepts" such as the 10 commandments were incorporated but there was a strong position taken that Christianity superceded Judaism. I don't agree from an esoteric standpoint - nor do I believe Christianity "perfects" Judaism. Both religions serve a different purpose than the study of Kabbalah which seeks to pierce the text rather than institutionaly build off it. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 10:59 PMSteven wrote: "Hebrew "concepts" such as the 10 commandments were incorporated but there was a strong position taken that Christianity superceded Judaism. I don't agree from an esoteric standpoint - nor do I believe Christianity "perfects" Judaism. Both religions serve a different purpose than the study of Kabbalah which seeks to pierce the text rather than institutionaly build off it."
Thank you. Very well put!
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 10:57 PMWC, it's always difficult to see humor in writing unless it is indicated as humor. That's why emoticons/smilies are so popular on the internet.
When angels assume physicality, they assume all of the qualities of incarnation, including desires.
It is said that humans are "closer" to God than angels, and yet we are physical and not non-physical and completely spirits as are the angels. They, too, doesn't seem to make sense until it is realized that "closer" means "more like." And the way humans are more like God than are the angels is by having free will. Angels do not have free will and can only do what is in their nature. That's why, for example, there is an angel of death.
Sorry, I don't have a wife, but my GF for the past five years is about half my age.
:-) <-- That's a smiley! -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 11:30 PMSorry, I don't have a wife, but my GF for the past five years is about half my age.
so I'm trying to work out the maths on this...
I mean you come across as being very young maybe 14 or so which would make the girl in question about 7 but if the relationship has already lasted 5 years this would mean that you first met when she was 2...
did your parents adopt a little girlfriend for you...?
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, September 27, 2008 - 7:35 AMSorry, Orpheus.
I don't have any pedophile interests, although it would seem, from your post, that your interests are in that area as that is the first thought you had.
You'd better get some therapy before we read about you in the news... -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Sat, September 27, 2008 - 10:11 AMShamb, don't get drawn into it. When anyone says anything of the sort, ignore it and move on.
Orpheus, apologize. This is *not* a troll venue. Let's make meaningful contributions.
Shamb was responding to an idea of mine. I didn't want to stir up his particular details,
I was trying to resolve some ideas as to the human/divine, as above/so below paradigm.
Sorry to have stirred that Shamb. Let's get it back to that investigatory intellectual incisive
level that I like you so much for... -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 2:51 PMBump ditty bump ditty bump ditty bump.
Seriously, let this one go. Where is the moderator?
Might as well delete this one, it's frickin' dangerous! -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 2:52 PMI could be hung from the highest yardarm for certain thoughts!
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Thu, September 4, 2008 - 12:01 AMwell actually... hahaha
I used the term "big church" in reference to a cathedral... hahaha
and then...
and then...
and then...
etc... hahaha
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 4:58 PMWormhole Charlie wrote: "unfortunately I am plagued by non-Kabbalistic reasonings (Christian and such) due to upbringing, nearby society and such factors."
As are we all! That is why there is the famous story of the Garden of Pomegranates where one who enters dies, one goes insane, and one is enlightened. If you go in WITHOUT all those "non-Kabbalistic reasonings (Christian and such) due to upbringing, nearby society and such factors" it is far more likely that you wont drive yourself insane.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 4:54 PMWormhole Charlie wrote: "...why have God be located both at Chockmah, and beyond the Three Veils?"
Respectfully, you're still mistaking the map for the territory.
There is only one God. The tree of life help in understanding the nature of God. Being only human, we can only approach, not be, God. Therefore, we cannot fully know God--we can only approach such a knowledge. We are limited by our minds being enclosed in time and space and past lives and conditioning etc.
There is only one God. God is not "split" save that our limited understanding forces such an interpretation upon us.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 4:50 PMWormhole Charlie wrote: "Chockmah is male...."
Chochma is female in relation to Kether. Chochma is male in relation to Binah.
Map≠territory -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 11:55 AMIn fact ADNI is opening the creation. There are references to events before Genesis, too. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 12:00 PMSorry ALHIM, not unlike Umma in the Rg Veda.
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 7:59 PMIn saying that Chockmah is male to Binah's female, I merely meant (most probably)
the lowest level (Assiah). At higher levels they are primordial, not sexed. Man prefers
to think of his God as a bearded male. I was astounded to find that the popular
example that the man on the street finds to be generally true is the same in a sense
as the concept of the bearded male at Chockmah. This limits god. You just put spirit
into form. Chockmah is force, remember? Why is he bound in form? Who cares about
all this thought, sound, voice shit. FORCE, remember. Not form. Why is he bound up
in the idea of being a male human-like creature? And then you get all the problems
of sexuality and that whole rigmarole. And all the sins of man, mostly centered around
'unbalanced force'. Male force. Humpf... -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 8:06 PMIs Kether male? Is Kether masculine only? I think it is either both combined, or totally
beyond such considerations. There are various theories. The mood today in the world
is the age of the Goddess. Though I am not particularly attracted to the new age term,
I would find it a much needed change from this idea of chaotic male force gone haywire.
For millenia. I am not happy that the Jewish land deal went sour and now all it's about
is materialistic strife. Men killing each other. And having fun doing it. And dumping all that
energy into cruelty and destruction, the qliphah of Geburah. Instead of Binah, because
of misogyny. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 8:16 PMWere the angels all male? The ones drawn down to take the daughters of man?
No female angels? Are there any now? The mormons have a belief that the patriarch
of the family only has the means to invite family females into heaven. Otherwise they
are not welcome, not invited? Atavistic. So the vice that the angels in Genesis 6 gave
into was Lust (vice of Netzach), the sphere in Assiah associated with Venus (Nogah),
and one must assume that this represents the Fall. But the Fall happened after the
emanation of Binah, right? That is the dividing point between God and man.
Get me? Love, or Lust? This is definitely an age of lust. These are human problems.
Be fruitful and multiply? Like locusts? Where is the focus on the Tree?
~~~Below the belt.
Where are we now? Aproaching a point where we will be packed like sardines on this planet.
And there is no getting off the ride, right? Everyone keep pumping out babies, please.
Because from at least a Christian viewpoint contraception is wrong. But why keep fucking
if you can't feed those children? Unfortunately I think of Africa. But of course us Western
materialist snobs don't care about them, right? So we are unconcerned. While all the social
problems continue to magnify due to the vice of Malkuth, Avarice, Inertia. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 10:27 PMWormhole Charlie wrote: "Were the angels male?"
Angles are spiritual beings and have no gender. When they take physical form they can choose to have a gender or not.
WC wrote: "the Fall happened after the emanation of Binah, right?"
Map≠territory.
There are traditionally three ways to interpret spiritual writing. The masses interpret literally and may get good from the stories. The wise interpret metaphorically and may get good from bringing the metaphors into their lives. The spiritual interpret mystically and may become enlightened. It is this last that is the way of the Kabalah. Unfortunately, from your posts, it seems like you or in the literal and metaphoric interpretation modes.
You are using the terms of the Kabalah, and I have no doubt that you have studied the Kabalah. But your posts indicate that you don't "get" it. In this thread Steven gave just a small (but valuable) example of how words can have spiritual meanings that go beyond metaphor, beyond literal meaning. You don't seem to "get" this.
There is the famous story (I think I mentioned it in this thread) that I'll repeat of three Rabbis who entered the Garden of Pomegranates (the study of the Kabalah). One died, one went insane, and one became enlightened. Right now, your posts are all over the place...they sound crazy. I'm sure you're going to say that they are perfectly logical to you, and I fully believe that. But insanity is not about a lack of logic, it's about a logic that is only logical to the person and not to others.
I would respectfully suggest that if you want to study the Kabalah that you should find a teacher and begin an in-depth study with him or her. From your posts, it sounds as if your own studies have not helped you and have only confused you.
Good luck on your path. -
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 11:17 PM
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 7:19 AM"In this thread Steven gave just a small (but valuable) example of how words can have spiritual meanings that go beyond metaphor, beyond literal meaning."
Actually I see it as "hyperliteral" - taking the word itself from a left brain perspective and bringing the right brain intuition/symbolism cipher into play to allow the meaning to bubble up. This is a process that has grown out of my own "shadow" work where polarities are balanced and integrated. I am speaking now of middle pillar/Tipheret work that I believe is the messianic force that Christianity attempted to capture at an esoteric level but missed the boat entirely in its exoteric theology and implementation. This is why I do not automatically dismiss Christian texts as removed from Kabbalah or of no value to the furthering of Luria's vision of restoration.
Example - Golgotha - Place of the skulls I view as a hyperliteral representation of the bottom four Sephirot - Hod and Netzach as the eyes, Yesod as the nose and Malchut as the mouth. This places the crucifixion at the Yesod cross - not Tipheret which is extremely significant in representing the delusions and illusions of the whole drama. Golgotha is also directly related in gematria to Goliath - another skull that is held by David related to overcoming the beast/the giant that Yesod also plays into (and David is associated with Malchut).
This is only one example of where an examination of the Christian text with Kabbalistic lens can prove insightful.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:08 AM"Right now, your posts are all over the place...they sound crazy. I'm sure you're going to say that they are perfectly logical to you, and I fully believe that. But insanity is not about a lack of logic, it's about a logic that is only logical to the person and not to others."
I'm not sure if Wormhole Charlie is sounding crazy or just thinking out loud. In either event, I agree grounding is essential when attempting to find Paradise (PeReshDaletSod) - which is seeing the Face-Head-Door-Secret levels in the Garden you speak of.
I can recall some very crazy times for myself when looking into the metaphorical crystal ball and prior to that some very bad headaches in trying to understand any of this with pure intellect alone. Grounding can be accomplished with a meditative practice - seeing a column of light entering the Crown chakrah and coming down through the body and leaving the feet into the earth. I'm sure there are other ways but this might help.
The bottom-line however is that when working in the transcendental realm, balance, grounding, maturity and pure intent are pretty good safeguards from the fates these Rabbis suffered IMO. A good teacher wouldn't hurt but I know they are not always available outside the large metro areas. I found my teachers in books.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 8:54 PM"At higher levels they are primordial, not sexed."
Indeed - at the level of Yetzirah the Adam is male and female as is stated in Genesis - God "created" them - male and female. This is the Adam Kadmon primordial "man".
Above Yetzirah (Creation) in Atziluth we can only speculate that Chochmah and Binah are giver and receiver of the energy/thought of gestating in Kether. Wisdom is given and Understanding is received. Force - Resistance. Spirit - Matter.
Kether does take-on the role of Groom to Malchut's Bride however. Lecha Dodi is the song of the Sabbath which seeks to spark the union between Shekinah (Malchut/Kingdom) and the Crown of Kether.
My sense is that the problems of sexuality are wrapped up around the suppression of the feminine ideals over the past few thousand years along with the Yesodic misunderstandings caused by shadow/separation etc. that are all tied around this.
The Arthur myths of the "quest" are getting at this through the imagery of rescuing the "damsel in distress" suppressed inner female - the Shekinah by slaying the dragon (inner shadow) IMO.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 10:06 PMWormhole Charlie wrote, "Man prefers to think of his God as a bearded male."
Many men and women, primarily in Europe and the Americas think of God as a bearded male. However billions of people do not have this image of God, many preferring the view of the Creator as female or not having a form at all.
WC wrote: "...the concept of the bearded male at Chockmah... limits god. You just put spirit into form. Chockmah is force, remember? Why is he bound in form?"
Unfortunately, this is more of your misunderstanding of Kabalah rather than a limitation of God. The Tree of Life, the Sephirot and all of the correspondences are merely maps of the reality of God, they are not God. You, too, are a map, but you are not God. Astrology, Newtonian physics, quantum physics are all ways for the limits of the human mind to try and understand the functioning of the universe.
You're seeing things backwards. Calling the energy of Chochma "male" is not putting a limit on God. It's recognizing a limitation of the human mind to understand the limitless nature of the Divine.
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Re: The Origin of YHVH
Fri, September 26, 2008 - 11:47 PMEgiptia God IAH or Jah.
See also Seth, Sabbath, Sion, aardvark, thunder, red, ...
