Greetings to you all.
Like 3 months ago my DNA forced me to start building a kaval and so I did. I learned it to play all by myself. All four registers go fluently and I manage to mix a few registers with each other (how do you call that ).
Now it is time to share this great interest and knowledge about this superb instrument with the rest of the world and I hope you guys can help me out in awnsering some questions to which no one ever could give clear awnsers to.
The kaval I built is a macedonian kaval built from a piece of ash wood. Due to technical difficulties which I had to overcome the bore somehow became slightly conical (16 mm and slowly comming up to 17 mm the last 12 cm's to the mouthpiece) and the wood is not very smooth on the inside. I tried sanding, but the wood stays rough. Anyway the kaval sounds real enough to me but the curiosity in the instrument didn't stop me from doing more experiments.
So I tried some more. Aluminium kaval (16 mm inner), PVC kaval (16 mm inner) and even a paper kaval!!
There is absolutely no difference between all these material. Ok the metal sounds a little bit sharp and the PVC like plastic. The paper can't catch the lowest register at all.
Wood sounds like best. Somewhat hollower, warmer and the sharp notes don't sound too sharp at all + the 4th register catches really well.
What is strange is that the first register is completely in tune. Every note sounds perfect on the piano. The second register sounds a little bit too sharp, the lowest D in the second register also doesn't like to make up its mind about being a D or E#. The third register sounds perfect again but the lowest A goes a bit double (catches the fourth register at the same time). The fourth register goes excellent.
Why I tell this, is because I wonder if this is normal. How do you experience your kaval?
Im affraid the slight increase in bore size near the mouthpiece may result into some problems, again I say may as I have never spoken to other kaval players or seen a kaval in real life.
Then comes another mystery I don't get. My Kabah sounds very clean (the whole kaval sounds like a tranverse concert flute) but whenever I listen to audiotrack The lowest register sounds like some sort of bagpipe like thing. Is this a playing technique??
What on the earth influenzes the sound on kavals. I have tried different materials, tube sizes, bore roughnesses and to me it all sounds the same.
I read about a special secret register that resides between the lowest and second register. Is that what I hear. The secret register is so secret that there is absolutely no detailed documentation of that. No sound sampes no explanation nothing.
Enough talking, tell me what you think, don't tell me to buy a kaval because I have never given up on anything and you will hurt my feelings :P
Like 3 months ago my DNA forced me to start building a kaval and so I did. I learned it to play all by myself. All four registers go fluently and I manage to mix a few registers with each other (how do you call that ).
Now it is time to share this great interest and knowledge about this superb instrument with the rest of the world and I hope you guys can help me out in awnsering some questions to which no one ever could give clear awnsers to.
The kaval I built is a macedonian kaval built from a piece of ash wood. Due to technical difficulties which I had to overcome the bore somehow became slightly conical (16 mm and slowly comming up to 17 mm the last 12 cm's to the mouthpiece) and the wood is not very smooth on the inside. I tried sanding, but the wood stays rough. Anyway the kaval sounds real enough to me but the curiosity in the instrument didn't stop me from doing more experiments.
So I tried some more. Aluminium kaval (16 mm inner), PVC kaval (16 mm inner) and even a paper kaval!!
There is absolutely no difference between all these material. Ok the metal sounds a little bit sharp and the PVC like plastic. The paper can't catch the lowest register at all.
Wood sounds like best. Somewhat hollower, warmer and the sharp notes don't sound too sharp at all + the 4th register catches really well.
What is strange is that the first register is completely in tune. Every note sounds perfect on the piano. The second register sounds a little bit too sharp, the lowest D in the second register also doesn't like to make up its mind about being a D or E#. The third register sounds perfect again but the lowest A goes a bit double (catches the fourth register at the same time). The fourth register goes excellent.
Why I tell this, is because I wonder if this is normal. How do you experience your kaval?
Im affraid the slight increase in bore size near the mouthpiece may result into some problems, again I say may as I have never spoken to other kaval players or seen a kaval in real life.
Then comes another mystery I don't get. My Kabah sounds very clean (the whole kaval sounds like a tranverse concert flute) but whenever I listen to audiotrack The lowest register sounds like some sort of bagpipe like thing. Is this a playing technique??
What on the earth influenzes the sound on kavals. I have tried different materials, tube sizes, bore roughnesses and to me it all sounds the same.
I read about a special secret register that resides between the lowest and second register. Is that what I hear. The secret register is so secret that there is absolutely no detailed documentation of that. No sound sampes no explanation nothing.
Enough talking, tell me what you think, don't tell me to buy a kaval because I have never given up on anything and you will hurt my feelings :P
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Re: The science of kavals??
Fri, May 30, 2008 - 12:06 PMDaemos, Welcome to our group !
My congratulations on making a wooden Macedonian kaval and learning to play it !
You may find it interesting to know, that cloth and glue laminated one-piece Macedonian style kavals
used to be made in Bulgaria up until the late 1970s ... You will find that the better you become at making,
playing and listening to kavals, the differences you noted in materials and design become much more apparent.
I think it is normal to have an initial reaction such as yours... expecting perhaps more differences,
detecting initially few and concluding that there are no differences in materials. As an experienced maker
of high end instruments I can state that generally, of greater importance than materials by far, is design and execution.
Aluminum and PVC may have appealed to you because of their relatively smooth, prefabricated bores and outside diameters.
In our trade, METAL = shrill and thin, PLASTIC = less shrill than metal, but lacking almost entirely in the "palette of colours"
(i.e., one dimensional,) WOOD = greater depth throughout, never shrill like the other materials, actually adopts the "footpint"
or personality of the player, especially when new, CARBON FIBER = interesting material, potentially better than Aluminum or
PVC for tone and construction, but ultimately probably soulless.
The variation of 1 mm. in bore diameter is considerable and will adversely affect playing stability and especially intonation...
are you sure about the D - F instability...? thats a fairly wide interval... (I have never met with such a case ... only some problems
with a half step interval
such as E to F...) In any case, it is not considered normal.
There is no "secret" register... some Bulgarian players (today, all ...) use their lips and the kaval mouthpiece as that of a trumpet,
which gives a lower pitched "clarinet" like sound... it's very easy to do ...
Wishing you every success, Aleksandr
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Re: The science of kavals??
Fri, May 30, 2008 - 2:55 PMI missed this part of your post ...
If the tuning problem you are having is with "E" on a "D" kaval ...
this is mostly due to hole placement (the hole below your last finger hole.)
The bore will not modify these notes to such an extent.
If you used the finger hole spacing and diameters of a Bulgarian kaval for the Macedonian model,
you will have more intonation problems because of the very low chimney height of Macedonian kavals
in comparison to Bulgarian and the fact that generally in Mascedonia, tone holes are 1 mm. or more, smaller
than in Bulgaria. - A. I. -
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Re: The science of kavals??
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 7:54 AMThank you all for the replies.
It is the lowest D in the second register that doesn't want to stay in tune. It somewhat ends up a quarter step higher then the rest. At first this was annoying but now I simply use finger, mouth, tong etc techniques to catch the right tone. In fact using the lips and other trick makes it possible for me to play on a full chromatic scale.
This trumpet playing style just makes sense. Now I get it why Bulgarian players place their kavals on their mount in a complete different way then I do (I watch a lot of this on folklor TV and youtube :) ).
What I am also beginning to wonder is how the bore of the flute has an influence on the texture of the sound. Is it the quality of the wood or also the bore shape??
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Re: The science of kavals??
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 8:00 AMForgot to tell. That I tried all the kaval materials once again and I agree.
They all sound different. Metal = indeed shrill and vibrates strangely in the higher registers. Plastic = textureless
Paper = utter crap.
Should the bore be smooth on the inside or a little bit rough thats what is wondering me very much?? -
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Re: The science of kavals??
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 8:55 AMBore dimensions are much more important than finish ...
Think of polishing the bore (a polished bore is always better...) as a better in focus photograph...
an unpolished bore... perhaps a photograph where the focus is a little fuzzy.
Kaba is the heart and soul of the kaval. It is an effect of boosting and intensifying the low octave.
In fact, playing the low octave without the kaba, is a special effect... whereas the kaba is generally
the only way to play the low octave. A good kaba is clean, rich and very powerfull.
You may be surprised to know, that in the hands of a good kaval player... the kaba effect is the stongest
(loudest) sound the kaval can make !
The position of Bulgarian players has nothing to do with the "Trumpet effect" ...
Usually, when people first begin to play, they start by holding the instrument off to one side by quite a lot ...
as they become accustomed to the kaval embouchure, in pursuit of a better tone, they move it in from the side...
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Re: The science of kavals??
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 9:05 AMP.S. There is very little science of kavals (and musical instruments in general ...)
It's almost all empirical ... In my experience, those who claim scientific insight into
instrument design and making, up to now, have been cranks with no results to back up their theories ...
The problem is most likely that nobody has come up with the requisite quality of input ... in time this may all change.
Many people find "science" to be a reassuring appellation... N. B. Beware of and maintain a healthy
skepticism for claims of "scientific" musical instrument design.... it could waste a lot of your time. -
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Re: The science of kavals??
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 8:56 AMThank you so much for saying that!!!! I totally agree with you on that. There is no way mathemathical formulas can predict what the sound will be. I always believe that every instrument made has a part of the makers soul and therefore sounds like the maker.
I fixed the tonation and instability issues btw. Can you believe it that there was a extremely thin paper fiber hanging inside the bore. It was so thin that only under special light and angles it could be noticed. After carefull removal of the fiber the kaval suddenly got completely into tune. I smoothed out the bore even more with p800 sanding paper and now the sound got a little bit warmer/cleaner
How do you clean your kavals without getting nasty fibers stuck inside the bore? How many times do you oil? The kaval slowly starts sounding grainy. Its hard to explain what I hear but it kicked in the last few days suddenly. Can it be of underoiling??
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Re: The science of kavals??
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 2:39 PMYou may find it interesting to know, that mathematical formulas
and physics can be useful tools, up to a certain point...
one of the first steps in calculating a Boehm-system flute
scale (,,, or a kaval scale) is to use the same calculations as in creating fret positions
for string instruments. Because of the considerable variables such as chimney height,
tone hole diameter and embouchure configuration.
These initial calculations serve only as a starting point ... Further modifiers, among many,
are tone hole undercut profile, overcut and overall finish.
Of all woodwind instruments, flutes are the least forgiving... with the kaval considered
something of an "unstable model". This is due to how little we really understand about
this instrument, it's relatively huge embouchure and other factors ...
Measurements of less than 0.025 mm. can make a noticeable change in good instruments...
half that in critical areas such as the embouchure (наустник.) Ash wood is used because it is
relatively soft and easy to work as well as widely available... It is not in fact,
a desirable material for kavals, but rather a reflection of the severe technological limitations
of Macedonian kaval makers... "Macedonian" kavals made in the early 19th. century,
were one-piece, but somewhat thicker, made from dogwood.
Oiling is not an issue for you at this stage ... but a separate discussion of distillates and solvents
that make "oiling" more effective for kaval making.
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Re: The science of kavals??
Sun, June 1, 2008 - 2:55 PMP.S. Oil infrequently, it is more important to keep the kaval dry, swabbed out, especially when not in use.
The change in playing quality that you mentioned, might well be due to the raising of the grain in the bore
and from what you have described, it is unlikely that the bore is actually round anymore (but oval ...)
with unpredictable results. Much of your difficulty stems from using ash and perhaps, not the correct boring
and reaming tools.
One of the many subtleties of kaval making, involves attaching a 5 mm. ball of sticky beeswax to the end of a 30 cm. long wire
and while one person plays, another, slowly moves it up the bore through the footjoint. When the right place is found,
the beeswax is lightly pressed in place and the wire is heated and withdrawn from the wax... then the fun begins, trying to
discern the practical application of this information. -
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Re: The science of kavals??
Tue, June 3, 2008 - 1:47 PMFrom what I read I screwed up big time :S
But considering the fact I did it for the first time I find it not bad at all. Now I am going to try again. This time I practiced all the tricks beforehand. Tell me what you think about this worklist ;)
Wood: im affraid I have to use ash. The other wood types you mentioned are hard to get in this region and are so expensive its more economical to drive to the balkan and buy a hand made kaval there.
The Bore: As straight as possible 16,05 mm bore. The last weeks I have practiced on wood and the bores are no longer getting oval or conical. They are getting straight and very round. What should I do with the mouthpiece? I heard that the mouthpiece is made slightly conical on the last cm.
How can I smoothen the bore? I tried sanding but somehow that doesn't work too well.
The outside: 20 mm, Pure handwork as well, just like the last time...
The holes: Round or oval?? I see variations on the net and read that the shape of the holes are important, Ill precalculate their positions and start of 6 mm. What does everyone mean by chimney height?
Tuning: Starting with the lowest D with a tuning machine and keep beveling until the whole kaval is in tune. Which register is being tuned? Nobody ever mentioned that.
Coating: just oil. Ill try to find the best quality but the Netherlands is a poor country in finding specialty products. Used expesive olive oil the last time. Did not polymerize (guess I was lucky :) ).
PS:
What about the subtelty's do they aply to macedonian kaval's as well?? From what I understood, Bulgarian kavals are much more advanced.
Lets hope that it will sound much better then the previous one. -
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Re: The science of kavals??
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 9:36 AMThis is a great post, thank you for all the info, everyone.
Daemos, could you tell us other beginners where you got the plans for building yours?
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: The science of kavals??
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 8:18 AMLong but simple story :)
I am half macedonian (may explain the interest) and since I was a young boy I sometimes saw an old man playing a kaval in the center of Ohrid. At that time nobody could tell me the name of the instrument as the instrument is somewhat forgotten.
When I hear the Kaval playing it makes me feel like I want to cry. Shivers crawl all the way over my skin and one day when watching folklor TV, I saw Theoden Spassov (forgive me if I spelled the name wrong) playing the kaval and I looked up his name on the internet finding out the instrument was called a Kaval.
Then the research began. Reading articles from many people downloading pictures, music, movies and found out that the kaval comes in many different styles. After a long search I found a great article about macedonian kavals with photo's and exact CORRECT meassurements on the finger holes ect.
So I started by hand first but the project was an utter failure because the ash wood you find in store is allready hardened and cannot be easily drillled by hand. The second kaval worked but consisted out of 4 pieces glued to each other. The third one had the wrong tunings and the bore failed by becoming conical + that I used the wrong wood. Now I succeeded and the kaval sound authentical.
I learned to play on a aluminium kaval and as soon as the wooden was ready I stepped on to wood. Wood has in fact the same basic tone but with a warm timbre to it. The most important about wood to my experience is the deep dark and strong kaba tone that other materials simply don't provide. Wood also makes the register mixing (is there a word for that??) much easier. When mixing register 1 with 2 the tone gets very bright reedy and strong. Wood also catches the highest notes much easier.
Got all the playing thing pretty fast. Mastered all the techniques in a short amount of time. I hope to learn some real cool stuff in macedonia this year.
Bulgarian kavals and macedonian kavals do sound different. I love them both but my DNA forces me to play macedonian. Macedonian kavals sound very high and breathy/hissy While Bulgarian kavals sound much warmer and deeper and very clear. This difference is propably caused by the superior engineering of the Bulgarian kavals (choice of materials etc.).
if you ever wonder what kind of kaval I play just look for a feratti kaval. It is a exact replica of that kaval maker.
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Re: The science of kavals??
Thu, July 17, 2008 - 3:39 AMI just feel stupid.... I think I completely misunderstood your question. Thats the price for doing too many things at the same time :S
Anyway this article will help a beginner in making macedonian kavals. It contains every bit of info you need to make an perfect reproduction of a Ferati kaval.
www.umbc.edu/eol/4/tammer/index.html
If you wish to try this youll need a lot of professional woodworking tools, a steady hand and a strong willpower. That has to do with the wood available over here. If you can get your hands on a right piece of ash. You will be able to do it according to the article. Nevertheless you will need some tools and skill.
This website helped me out in getting started. Thnx to this man I got my first tone.
www.robertsnider.com/Kavals/
Hope I understood the question better now.
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