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My LO seems to have left a long line of limerent sufferers in her wake and often boasts that she turns men mad. I think in her case it is almost both a psychological imperative and psychological agent at work. Using periods of emotional intensity followed by almost perverse coldness and indifference, to garner suitors' attentions.
Does anyone else know of LOs that seem to have had this effect on multiples of victims?
I've wondered if, in case where people have contact with their LOs, the hot / cold switching is the agent programming our neurons into such a immovable state. i.e. The source of limerence?
Thoughts?
Graeme
Does anyone else know of LOs that seem to have had this effect on multiples of victims?
I've wondered if, in case where people have contact with their LOs, the hot / cold switching is the agent programming our neurons into such a immovable state. i.e. The source of limerence?
Thoughts?
Graeme
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Re: LOs with multiple victims
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 12:04 PMThat is a very good question, Graeme. Behavioral psychologist BF Skinner conducted experiments (in, I believe, the 1950s) that demonstrated that what he termed "intermittent reinforcement" (rewarding a certain behavior periodically and unpredictably rather than consistently) was far more effective for conditioning an ingrained response (difficult to eradicate) than rewarding the behavior consistently (each time). For instance, everyone knows of the lab rat traveling through a maze to reach a morsel of cheese at the far end. Skinner's studies showed that if the rat was allowed the cheese each time he completed the maze successfully, he became complacent about making the journey at every opportunity. When he did not find the cheese at the end each time, but rather intermittently, and with no predictable pattern, the rat became much more intent on working the maze...even to the point of obsessing over being allowed to run the maze. These experiments were applied to human subjects in a variety of behavior-reward scenarios, and the human results were identical to the rodent model. Skinner found that human subjects learned better and with much more acuity if they were rewarded for their work in an uneven, inconsistent pattern rather than each time. Not only did they learn better, but their interest became keenly piqued. They summoned greater interest and determination to do the work than those who were rewarded each time. In addition, it was much harder to "unlearn" the conditioning in those subjects who had been rewarded intermittently. Put another way, those who had been rewarded only some of the time had a much more difficult time being conditioned out of repeating the behavior. Could this be termed "obsession"? It is not difficult to see the foundation being laid for obsessive pattern, is it?
Why should limerence be any different? I believe limerence too is a learned behavior, even if it is learned on a sub-conscious plane. The object of admiration may become far more appealing to the admirer if the LO seems to blow hot and cold rather than being warm and welcoming consistently.
There is an excellent article for the lay person on "intermittent reinforcement" in wikipedia, for anyone interested:
wik.ed.uiuc.edu/index.php/...inforcement -
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Re: LOs with multiple victims
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 12:38 PMI remember having read about Skinner's work on intermittent reinforcement several years ago (am I right in remembering was an extension of Pavlov's conditioning?). However, I didn't think to see the link that you so cleverly suggested. It makes total sense to me, that behaviourally, the intermittent rewarding would produce a far more focused and acute response than continuous reward, not only in the demonstrated case of food but as well as emotional conditioning. I'd imagine neurotransmitter rationing, caused by hot and cold emotive responses, could in time, cause some sort of fixed neurological construct, in our case limerence.
I'm no neurologist or psychologist, but perhaps it's a case of when we get attention from our LO, we get waves of neurotransmitter release reinforcing the good of it, when we don't our synapses scream for serotonin, there's no uptake, which is why we can feel so depressed yearning for their attention.
It makes me wonder if that is why NC is the most effective treatment for limerence, our synapses are no longer exposed to the unbalanced flooding and starving of neurotransmitters, things stabilise and our pathways which were ingrained by the Skinner effect, re-align?
Thoughts?
Graeme -
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Re: LOs with multiple victims
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 9:53 AMYes! NC is like the theory of extinction I think. THis is making much more since to me to link reinforcement with limerence.
I have racked my mind as to why I would be so driven by someone not as hot or good as my husband and this is it!!! My LO is a master of the hot and cold interactions. However it has been awhile since I have been rewarded. (sine he realized i flirt back and he is very married and happy that way) Instead I replay the old reinforcements in my mnd so I am continuing to provide the positive when in reality my LO is presently only giving negative.
So instead of NC with my limerence, I need to have a lobotomy. Sadly I am only half kidding :( it may be my only cure.
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Unsu...
Re: LOs with multiple victims
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 12:19 PMWow, Skinner. You have to love him. Anyway Graeme, my experience, limited thankfully to one LO is yes; she is currently tormenting another gentlemen as I speak. He however, deserves it so too bad for him. Mr. Skinner and your LO’s motivations aside, I think it is pretty clear to you that you have to get out of this situation. As, Mr. Dylan said "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" and it’s not at your back my friend. -
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Re: LOs with multiple victims
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 1:37 PMWell, I see it from both sides, being a total limerent for one person (3.5 years now - do you get a badge after 5 years?) and being what you call a LO with "multiple victims". Some of my limerents who have "come out of the woodwork" have surprised me ... one or two I've only spoken to in passing over the years. I think the oddest one was the guy who used to leave notes on my car. I never found out who he was. I wonder if he ever spoke to me, or if he just spotted me from a distance ... dunno. I'll never know.
Meanwhile, yes, my LO does the "hot and cold" thing, or I see it like that, but I don't think he sees it like that. The way he sees it is he's going about his daily business and not thinking about ME all the time. So what comes across as "hot" and what comes across as "cold" to me is just him being him. What I'm saying is the interpretation of "hot" vs "cold" is in my head.
If the rats in that experiment didn't care about "cheese" vs "not cheese" they wouldn't have been driven so crazy!
Hope that makes sense! -
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Unsu...
Re: LOs with multiple victims
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 2:42 PMYes, it does make sense. “Playing” is defined in the eye’s of the beholder and certainly lends itself to subjective interpretation. That said, the question is, should the LO reasonably recognize when they are toying with someone's emotions. In our friend’s situation here, it would seem clear that she does, because she has admitted same. In this case, she is deliberately adjusting the temperature. More the reason Graeme needs to exit the situation. -
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Re: LOs with multiple victims
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 11:01 PMRead some of my posts. My LO leaves a wake of destruction in his path. He is not attractive or successful but is great at pretending to be everything you want until you are hooked. The games he plays and the manipulation leave you confused and unsure and that is what fuels it.
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Re: LOs with multiple victims
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 9:43 AMIt was pointed out to me that whenever I felt that someone was getting too close to me I would become not just withdrawn, but passive-aggressive and possibly even verbally abusive in order to push that person away. Feeling dependent on another person is not something I have handled well. How I could have been unaware of this for so long is mystifying, it's so blatantly obvious to me now.
Shortly after becoming aware of this aspect of my own behavior, I realized that LO does the same thing and for the same reasons. She's not overt about it like I am, she just becomes cold and distant. She is also aware that she does this, but that's not the same thing as deliberately taking an action in order to provoke a desired response.
Sometimes people do things for reasons that even they don't understand. Just something to consider. And yes, there is a long trail of broken men behind her.