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Strangely encouraging

topic posted Thu, July 19, 2012 - 5:59 PM by  Charlie
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I stumbled onto this blog today and am encouraged that my problem has a name and is shared by so many people. I'm not at all happy that others feel these intense feelings, but i suppose there is something to be said for shared pain.

My story is this: I'm a 52 year old executive. I've been happily married for 25 years to a lovely woman. I've always had an active fantasy life when it comes to other women, but have never acted on it. I had given myself to permission to lust. A year ago, we hired a young woman right out of college in my department. She lived at home and her commute took her by my neighborhood each day. We occasionally rode to work together when my car was in the shop or I needed to be dropped at the airport later in the day. She's a delightful, lovely person and I found myself becoming very fond of her. Eventually, the fondness became an obsession that perfectly fits the definition of limerence. I found myself thinking of her constantly and riding an emotional rollercoaster of "she likes me" and "she hates me" based on the most mundane factors. I found myself imagining a dating and eventual marriage relationship. My rational brain would remind me that we are 29 years apart in age, that I'm married with two wonderful kids, that this whole idea is ludicrous! In spite of that, I found thinking and fantasizing about her irresistible. I even found myself feeling as though I was cheating on HER when I was with my wife.

The guilt and frustration was eating me alive, such that by last Christmas I was struggling to concentrate on anything else. I talked to a very close friend who strongly counseled me to run away from the situation, giving me an example of a man similar to me who had lost everything in a similar situation. I finally broke down and talked to my sweet wife who forgave me and told me she was committed to our marriage no matter what. A few days later, I confessed my infatuation to the young woman and her direct supervisor because I wanted to be accountable. I also self-reported to our human resources department--telling them that, although I had not broken any policies, that since I had confessed to her and to her supervisor, I wanted it on the record that I was coming clean on this.

She also accepted it pretty well after initial concern that her job might be affected. I assured her it would not be and that, other than distancing myself from her a bit, nothing would change. She's happy in her job now and doing well. We have a very positive working relationship and I think she still thinks highly of me as a boss and mentor. I'm proud of that.

That all being said, I've continued to struggle off and on with the limerence feelings. I've been to a psychologist, to a marriage weekend with my wife, and read several books about breaking habits and dealing with sexual obsession. My wife and I made a concerted effort to increase our sexual activity. I feel I've made some progress, but still find myself vulnerable to the obsessive feelings.

I've tried to manage it by minimizing the interaction I have with her, but not completing cutting it off. In a perfect world (although I would hate it), I suppose I'd totally disengage with her, but it's not practical. Plus, there is a legitimate and healthy relationship intertwined with the infatuation. That may be hard to believe, but it's true.

I should say that she is a sweet, beautiful young woman with a very outgoing personality, but also a large dose of ADD symptoms. When I use the objective part of my brain to assess her as a potential partner, I can identify any number of "flaws" that would undoubtedly become tiresome to me in a longterm relationship, not to mention the huge issues that would arise from our age difference. I could make a mile long list of reasons why not. Unfortunately, this limerence thing sort of makes all that feel utterly meaningless.

Anyway, I've done pretty well until this week when I strolled by her work area and saw a vase with fresh flowers on her desk. It came out in conversation that she'd begun going out with one of the young men in my department. He's a wonderful, sincere young guy--exactly the kind of guy I'd like to see her dating. The healthy part of me was please. The infatuated part of me was gutted and very jealous. It reawakened many of the feelings I had hoped that I'd put aside. Ouch.

I'm hoping that the recurring jealousy and recognition that she is in a romantic relationship with a real person will help finally break the spell. I'm not counting on it, but I am hopeful. I'm also trying to capture each thought of her as best i can and substitute another pleasurable thought, such as my wife or even another attractive woman. Anything to break the thinking patterns that feed the obsession.

This is really, really hard. I wish there was a clear path to getting past it. If anyone has any practical suggestions, i'm listening. Thank you for allowing me to take up so much space with all the story details. It helped a bit to try to articulate it.
posted by:
Charlie
Dallas
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Strangely encouraging

    Fri, July 20, 2012 - 12:49 AM
    Welcome to the club!
    I'm posting too much this week so I'll keep it brief. There seem to be only two "cures" ; either non-contact or just waiting for it to go away. My way of coping is by reminding myself over and over that my fantasies are exactly that. And reading the posts here is immensely reassuring. Just don't get sucked into overanalysing. :)
  • Re: Strangely encouraging

    Fri, July 20, 2012 - 12:59 AM
    Charlie I don't have time just now to write a very full comment but (as you can see if you look at my posts to this forum, your situation (and more particularly the oh so painful emotions it has generated) is remarkably similiar to my own. I have no real answers and, like you, my life has been overwhelmed and dominated by this for over a year now; with corrosive consequences for my marriage (33 years in my case) I also disclosed (because in the end I felt unable not too; it made nothing better and probably worse) The jealousy I felt when seeing a picture of my LO's husband was intense as it was when I saw her happily interacting with others (even before the "relationship" we had went sour) that has lessened somewhat now.

    I've also put myself in therapy which I hope may help though it doesnt feel it is yet.

    The clearest message that comes from this forum, IMO, is that NC (no contact) is the only answer (time the healer etc) I would like to find a middle way (a more neutral friendship with LO) in part because NC leaves me feeling so incredibly sad and because there are practical difficulties.

    Finding this forum and putting a name to this has provided some relief; I hope it will for you also.

    Good luck
  • Re: Strangely encouraging

    Fri, July 20, 2012 - 2:02 AM
    Welcome Charlie - im the same age and ame number of years of marriage. I applaud you for coming clean to all involved.

    For me what has worked is psychothepray (a lot of it), time, compassion for myself, a wonderful supportive family and appreciatijng limerence is all about me, my own emotional issues that only i can work through.

    Tribe is a wonderful resource but be careful with too much intelectualising of the issue. Limerence is all about feelings and emotions, the deep unconcious stuff that resides in us all and excerts such control over our day to day lives.

    good luck.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Strangely encouraging

      Fri, July 20, 2012 - 6:53 AM
      @Chris: "...but be careful with too much intelectualising of the issue."

      well, Chris, it's either that or have sex with the LO. in fact, Charlie, in reality, maybe the only way these feelings are ever going to go away (i mean ever) is if you actually have a physical relationship with her, maybe for, what, i dunno what do people have affairs for six months a year,and then i can almost guaranty you will not have limerent feelings for this person any longer.

      there isn't a single person in this tribe, that i know of, that has actually consummated the relationship and then tired of the LO. so if you can't have a physical realtionship, you have to outsmart your own brain. that is what intellectualizing to me means.
      unless i'm missing something that's what this is, cognitive jail. you aren't in jail if you are free to act on your feelings. you are in jail because you are prohibited from that. the only solution other than physical relief, is mental analyzation. so i say intellectualize or really mess things up by ignoring your intellect.

      and maybe it is the deep unconscious, if that's where our instincts reside, especially since you are feeling jealousy, it must be that part of the brain (old cave man brain) that caused you to feel like that. you have to intellectualize this, because you are dealing with parts of the brain that are fixed in their ideations. you have to intellectualize it in the very moral and responsible way that you already have.

      jealousy is nothing to be afraid of. it doesn't feel good, but think it through. mother nature provides it for a reason. (obviously not to make you happy) once you know the reason mother nature provides all these responses (knee jerk) then we can be aware of them on a higher level and deal more appropriately with life in a perfect world i suppose you could pull her by the hair into your cave and not have to deal with your intellect. but HR might frown on that.

      sorry chris i have no idea what you meant by not intellectualize it?
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 7:19 AM
        I had sex with my LO and it helped me because it didn't live up to my expectations. I'd thought it would be the best thing ever, but it wasn't. Neither of us had any of the deep emotions I'd been hoping for. After all those months of imagining how magical it would be, there weren't fireworks, the earth didn't move and nothing in our relationship had changed afterwards. It meant I was forced to accept that I'd been deluding myself. I still find him attractive, but I didn't see us having a relationship after that.

        I also wasn't jealous when I found out he had a girlfriend. I was envious that she lived closer than I did, but nothing more than that. I had no negative feelings towards either of them.

        Maybe I'm just weird (that's as deep as my intellectualising goes :)).
      • Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 7:21 AM
        <sorry chris i have no idea what you meant by not intellectualize it?>

        I mean trying to understand what is going on by reading books, by going into into your head which is really a distraction. Its what i do here on Tribe, distract myself, rather then just sit with my feelings and observe them flow through me.

        The work that needs to be done is "feeling" work, this is done by going into your heart. No amount of reading can help with that. Its akin to reading a book on fitness and expecting to get fit. You have to do the work by exercising. The only ways i know of getting into our hearts and starting to feel and then learn to sit with our feelings is with talking therapies and meditation.
  • Re: Strangely encouraging

    Fri, July 20, 2012 - 6:36 AM
    When the usual efforts to identify the source of a problem fail, I recommend logging. I bet you have a day time planner or something like it. In it, log all your contacts with LO, intrusive thoughts and feelings about LO, and general emotional state (kind and intensity). Use one of those sheets of 100+ emotional words. Do this for a week and review. You may begin to see a pattern or a connection you had not noticed before.
    • Re: Strangely encouraging

      Fri, July 20, 2012 - 7:55 AM
      "I recommend logging."

      I actually stopped at this comment and went totally into my head wondering if cutting down trees and floating on them down a river would really help. I was thinking, "It's good to get outdoors, but I've never really thought of logging as a hobby. I think you have to know what you're doing." Then I went on reading and was like, "Oh...I'm a moron." lol

      Just wanted to share. :)
      • Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 8:31 AM
        @STGirl: "I actually stopped at this comment and went totally into my head wondering if cutting down trees and floating on them down a river would really help. I was thinking, "It's good to get outdoors, but I've never really thought of logging as a hobby. I think you have to know what you're doing.""

        I had a similar initial impression....LOL......When I chainsaw around the property, I don't really focus to much on the LO or the emotions that go with the LE. Wouldn't want to know what that saw blade would be coming in contact with if that were the case. As for stacking wood.....okay, maybe my mind could drift. And certainly I might be able to imagine a "sweaty encounter" if doing it during a hot day........
  • Re: Strangely encouraging

    Fri, July 20, 2012 - 6:48 AM
    For the intrusive thoughts, too, it has helped me to stop myself as soon as one starts "bubbling up," to question why it's there. I generally feel like my limerent thoughts are a cover for something else- thoughts that are deeper and more painful that I don't feel I can consciously address without overturning a great deal of settled knowledge about myself. Eventually, limerent thoughts just became the go-to "fix" for any emotional difficulty or challenge I was facing, no matter how small, and were pretty much constant, with no real consistency as to the severity of the "crisis" that provoked them. The question "what do I really need right now?" has been a very helpful one, both for interrupting the thoughts and for getting at the deeper issues. Good luck:)
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Strangely encouraging

      Fri, July 20, 2012 - 7:24 AM
      @Charlie: "Anything to break the thinking patterns that feed the obsession. "

      my experience:
      there is no solution. there isn't anything you can do to break the thinking pattern that feeds this obsession.
      it's too late now. i believe that the LO becomes a part of our psyche after a point and then there's really no turning back and reclaiming that part of our brain where once upon a time LO did not exist. (live and breathe in our heads)

      many great ideas about how to deal with this. (band-aids) none of them work. and here's the thing that makes me the most crazy about limerence, you think you are in a good place, you actually think you have it under control, and then you spend the next two days trying to get out of bed because you feel like nothing really has any meaning and you feel depressed.

      this has been my experience. otherwise i don't think you can call it limerence. if it's not this intense and life altering, it isn't a good dose of limerence is all i can say.

      look what it's already done to you. it's turned your life upside down. that is what limerence does.
      there's no solution to limerence except time. and i don't mean a week or a month. i'm talking years. i am going on 4 years. don't you think that's an insane amount of time to be imagining a love relationship with someone? don't you think that borders on CRAZY!

      but like you, i'm married, and i don't want to start a relationship when i'm already in one that has great meaning to me. i have too much respect for my own partner to ever, well, lie or cheat.

      in that regard i will not say that limerence destroyed my marriage. it's not destroyed. we have just been together a very long time (28 years)
      so it evolved into a platonic and loving relationship, but completely without passion.

      that's why i think i became limerent, someone made me feel those feelings again. like you, someone at work. i know how dreadful that is.

      one thing i can tell you about limerence, don't underestimate it. i have tried to intellectualize it, but knowing there really is no cure.
      i don't know what the cure is going to look or feel like. i don't even think it's around the corner for me. this elusive cure. this balm to my obsession. i begin to believe it doesn't exist. according to Tenov (Dr. who defined limerence)
      there's (3) outcomes:

      1. consummation (i know where we both stand on that one.)
      2. transference (you just feel like this all over again about someone even more wonderful than your present LO.)
      3. starvation . (hence all the good advice about never seeing your LO again. NC (no contact)

      so you see, difficult outcomes. wish me luck, though, Charlie, I'm gonna need it.
      • Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 7:34 AM
        A very good post Lisa

        <starvation . (hence all the good advice about never seeing your LO again. NC (no contact)> So I'm doomed or I leave then :^(
      • Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 7:55 AM
        I agree with Lisa.I too have tried to rein in the limerent beast as best as possible.But it refuses to be tamed.
        Charlie you now know you are not alone
        .I am a woman of your age and in love with a man 25 yrs younger to me.It seems so much more of an aberration when woman is much older than the man.Doesn't it?But it happened and I have been struggling with it for more than 3 1/2 yrs.
        I am not happy in my marriage and I have 3 children whom i adore.I do not know why I connected this way with someone who is young enough to be my son.
        Yes, he has so many qualities which I wanted in my man .How I recognised it in an instant is absolutely baffling.
        I kept it hidden from him for 3 yrs ( or I thought so) though we were in close touch.Then i disclosed quite unexpectedly and he reciprocated in his own way.
        But we can never be together and hence the pain and obsession continues.
        Now NC is my only hope ,which is impossible now.
        But then,as Lisa said ,life will seem so dull and empty without him.
      • Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 8:37 AM
        Tennov was a psychologist but was she a *clinical* psychologist? I wonder because there is a 4th outcome:

        1. consummation
        2. transference
        3. starvation
        4. resolution

        #1 does not necessarily equal sex!

        I aimed directly for #4 (psychotherapy), but there have been elements of #1 (disclosure) and #3 (no contact). For me the limerent fog lasted only a few weeks, and contacts with LO generally have helped me move forward. I also think it has helped that I never assumed sex with LO would be good sex. Before marriage I had sex with several men with whom I was infatuated (mildly, not limerent), with whom the sex was disappointing or even unpleasant. Would sex with my LO be good sex? On the positive side, he is a sensual man. On the negative side, he is a straight arrow who married young and is still in that marriage, so his experience may be limited. Sadly I have experienced men weeping after sex with me, saying they never knew what they had been missing in all their previous sexual encounters.
        • Re: Strangely encouraging

          Fri, July 20, 2012 - 9:14 AM
          @Una: "Before marriage I had sex with several men with whom I was infatuated (mildly, not limerent), with whom the sex was disappointing or even unpleasant. Would sex with my LO be good sex?"

          I kinda agree with Woody Allen: "Even bad sex is good sex" :-)

          But this will be true for any population that lives for half of the year in snowmobile suits..... :-(

          Still, .......honestly......If the truth is to be found somewhere in between total starvation/abstinence and consummation with/without sex, then it may be that our future on this issue lies somewhere closer to Bonobos than Chimps, where intimacy/sex in such situations is not so highly repressed making it into such an obsession. We may still be on that evolutionary trajectory and not quite there yet, but who knows. Just a thought.
      • Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 9:20 AM
        @Lisa: " i believe that the LO becomes a part of our psyche after a point and then there's really no turning back and reclaiming that part of our brain where once upon a time LO did not exist."

        There's a part of me that agrees with this, since I only have to think briefly of an LO from many years back and I can still get the warm fuzzies. But I am experiencing this sensation within the fact that I still have much,.........much......work to do still within myself, so I am reluctant to adamantly admit that "there's really no turning back". What I anticipate is that, from that healthier perspective, there would still be warm and pleasant feelings for all LOs from the past, without the associate painful desperation feelings that underlie the current sensation.
        • Re: Strangely encouraging

          Fri, July 20, 2012 - 12:16 PM
          For me, those from the past have largely lost their power though curiously there are many parallels current and last (from 16 yrs ago) that they occasionally become melded in my mind's eye . .
      • Re: Strangely encouraging

        Sat, July 21, 2012 - 4:24 PM
        Thank you to everyone. I appreciate all the insights and sympathetic comments. Knowing what you are feeling, my heart aches for each of you. It's a hellish situation.

        I believe that my infatuation with her arose out of my self-prescribed coping mechanism for dealing with depression and stress: when feeling blue, go to my "happy place" by thinking about sex or romance with a beautiful woman. That seemed like a pretty good and safe strategy for several years until I got too close to my fantasy girl.

        Here are some things I'm doing that seem to be helping:

        1. I'm talking to some good friends who remind me of reality. Although my LO is a sweet and lovely person, she does have some flaws. My coworkers have helped me see those. One of them sits in the cube next to her and admitted that he was initially smitten by what he calls her "womanly superpower" over men. After a few months of listening to her, he basically got tired of her annoying characteristics. If nothing else, hearing that helped me see the reality over the fantasty.
        2. I'm praying pretty hard about this. I don't know if any of you are religious, but I am. I am coming to believe that God is allowing this trial to test and develop me for some greater purpose. That probably sounds a bit ridiculous, but it really isn't. I don't believe God put this problem in my life--that's my doing--but it could very well be to force me and my wife to get out of the velvet-lined rut we've been in for years. I'm having to really work at making my marriage what it ought to be. My wife is willing and very committed, so I'd be a fool to walk away from that just because it's hard.
        3. I'm specifically trying to substitute thoughts of my wife, and sometime other women who are attractive but not LOs for me, when I begin to think about her. I'm trying to break the awful habit of thinking longingly about her. I find that if I can capture some really compelling images or fantasies, I can replay those in place of thinking about her. Kind of like substituting saccharine for sugar--not exactly what you want, but it tastes good enough to satisfy you in the moment.
        4. I'm going to spend much more romantic and sexual time with my wife. Even though my inner desire is for this other woman, I do love my wife, so I'm going to act myself into feeling romance and desire for her. Basically, I'm going to drive myself to live up to my marriage vows even now when it's hard.
        5. I'm going to try to resist the urge to look at porn when I'm frustrated. I know in my heart porn is a bad thing on it's own. Beyond that, I think it does two bad things for me. First, it trains my mind and feelings to never be completely satisfied with the real, live, lovely woman I'm married to. Second, it often links immediate pleasure to those longing feelings for my LO. That just reinforces the longing. I know all that intellectually, but porn has become a crutch in dealing with depression because it's a pleasurable escape. It's hard to ignore when it's so easy to find.

        So, I think I have to first break the infatuation with her or at least work the feelings down to a more manageable level. Then I've got to make sure I don't get sloppy and think I'm safe and get sucked into this again.

        So, I probably did overanalyze this, but I'm determined to figure it out. In my head, I KNOW she isn't the perfect woman for me even though I FEEL she is. I am going to work on this until I change how I feel about her. I realize that it won't be easy and may not work out exactly the way I want it to, but I am determined to do the right thing for my wife, my kids, my faith, myself, and, frankly, for the lovely young woman who did nothing intentional to become the object of my infatuation.

        By the way, if you haven't read the book, Feeling Good by Dr. David Burns, I strongly suggest it. It's all about cognitive therapy where you change your thinking patterns. I haven't mastered it, but it gives me hope to know that there is a path.

        I don't want to be overconfident. I realize I'm extremely vulnerable and this will be hard. I'd encourage all of you to not give up hope and give in to misery.

        I'll keep you posted.
        • Re: Strangely encouraging

          Sat, July 21, 2012 - 11:46 PM
          Charlie - your doing some great work. IMHO CBT has its place but is more a sticking plaster and does not get to the root of the deeper issues that drives many of us limerents.

          How about about marriage counselling? We had 2 years of it - initially it was very tough going but it helped us both see the dynamics playing in our relationship. Were also both in therapy individually as well and for me, this has been the greatest help of all. Having a non-judgemental emotionally mature therapist that feeds back her views helps clarify some of my (very) distorted thinking and beliefs, which would fall neatly into the pigeon hole of co-dependency. I used to think i was pretty "together" before therapy, i know realise I was far from it, but am making great progress.
          • Re: Strangely encouraging

            Sun, July 22, 2012 - 7:15 AM
            Chris, It's funny you mention marriage counseling because I had just had a little epiphany this week that perhaps CBT had taken me about as far as it could on this particular issue and that perhaps someone with a more practical skillset related to marriage and relationships would be appropriate. Thanks for pointing that out.

            Early in our marriage we tried marriage counseling and I hated it. I was struggling with the level of intimacy that a good marriage demands and we thought a marriage counselor could help. Unfortunately, the one we picked followed the style of more or less blaming everything on the husband. I'm not suggesting that I wasn't the one with the problem, but rather that his solution was to push me to go against my natural male style and just be more like a woman. A lot of marriage books do that, too. "If you'll just be more sensitive, loving, verbal, etc, your wife will be happy and everything will work out." It's a little more complicated than that. Again, I'm not suggesting I don't need to do more of that, but a man is only capable of doing so much of that. We operate on action, not words. We develop relationships through side by side activity, not face to face bonding. We open up and feel romance through physical intimacy, not the other way around.

            Anyway, I know one bad experience 25 years ago isn't a good basis for staying away. In fact, I think I should go to a Christian marriage counselor myself for some practical help. I think I'm the one who needs to deal with my demons and it would be wonderful to have some good direction from someone who sees these kinds of things all the time. I need practical steps to take, not more talk to pull out my inner feelings like I'm doing with CBT. At some point it might be worthwhile to pull my wife into the marriage counselor, too, but I don't think at first it's necessary.

            Thanks again.
            • Re: Strangely encouraging

              Sun, July 22, 2012 - 7:23 AM
              Charlie, I think you would get a lot of benefit out of Gary Chapman's book "The 5 Love Languages". There is an online assessment tool that you can use before reading the book. If your wife and you both do the assessment, then read the book, you may find it very informative and find a lot of good practical ideas too.

              www.5lovelanguages.com/assessments/love/
        • Re: Strangely encouraging

          Sun, July 22, 2012 - 12:31 PM
          @Charlie:

          "I believe that my infatuation with her arose out of my self-prescribed coping mechanism for dealing with depression and stress: when feeling blue, go to my "happy place" by thinking about sex or romance with a beautiful woman."

          The latter part would probably characterize the bulk of the adult male population....but you are on track with this being a coping mechanism for dealing with your depression and stress. This last part seems to me to be a critical ingredient in limerence.

          "After a few months of listening to her, he basically got tired of her annoying characteristics. If nothing else, hearing that helped me see the reality over the fantasty."

          And yet I still have to ask myself "What if she was almost perfect?....then what?" Because then you might also, by chance, stumble upon 2, 10 or 20 almost perfect partners. So for me it's also important to ask myself "How much is enough?" ......what do I need in my life for at least contentedness and what parts are killing me? I think it was John D. Rockefeller who was asked "How much money is enough?".. and his reply: "Just a litte bit more....".

          "I'm specifically trying to substitute thoughts of my wife, and sometime other women who are attractive but not LOs for me, when I begin to think about her. I'm trying to break the awful habit of thinking longingly about her. I find that if I can capture some really compelling images or fantasies, I can replay those in place of thinking about her."

          If it works for you, great. I'm personally wary of this approach because it seems "forced".....a form of repression. And what we repress, we tend to eventually obsess over.

          "I'm going to spend much more romantic and sexual time with my wife. Even though my inner desire is for this other woman, I do love my wife, so I'm going to act myself into feeling romance and desire for her. Basically, I'm going to drive myself to live up to my marriage vows even now when it's hard"

          Just to offer, what are you doing for/about yourself.....the depression and possibly other aspects of your core emotions? These aren't written in stone and can change for the better. By doing so, you may inadvertenly assist your desires to strengthen your marriage as a collatoral effect from healthy attendance to your inner world.

          You seem very thoughtful with all of this. Hoping it improves for you!......
    • Re: Strangely encouraging

      Fri, July 20, 2012 - 8:48 AM
      @Lauren: "Eventually, limerent thoughts just became the go-to "fix" for any emotional difficulty or challenge I was facing, no matter how small, and were pretty much constant, with no real consistency as to the severity of the "crisis" that provoked them."

      Yeah....it takes a bit of practice to hone in on what the *real* problem is that sends us to the LO or into LE for that "fix". For me, though, asking "what do I need right now" can reveal a submerged beast that is rather ominous/intolerable and who wants to "have a little chat", so I need to chase him from the door just in order to keep functioning for the rest of the day.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Strangely encouraging

        Fri, July 20, 2012 - 10:42 AM
        John, walking dead, zombies, all hallow's Eve, it's not even October!
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Strangely encouraging

          Fri, July 20, 2012 - 10:52 AM
          @chris: "The work that needs to be done is "feeling" work, this is done by going into your heart. "

          that may be the closest we ever get to curing ourselves. if we can't be cured from the outside by "the moment" with LO, then this is probably as good as it gets. even walking doesn't do it, because i think alot about LO when i walk in nature. i think what i should do is some sitting meditation. playing music is a relief too. closest to sitting meditation probably, but sitting meditation is a real discipline in and of itself.

          and of course if that doesn't work i could always.:www.youtube.com/watch

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