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This week I decided to attempt NC or as close to NC as is possible in my circumstances.
In a predictable manner after several days of no contact, my LO came chasing me. I'm almost certain she thrives on the attention as well as the mental stimulus I give her. Now I feel quite guilty though, because I used diversion and lies on this occasion, even though I felt it was necessary for my NC therapy.
She phoned me fairly late on my work line, we don't have caller ID so I have to answer, but I almost knew it was her before answering. I did decide that for once the conversation would be brief and without pandering to her needs. She asked how I was, and was I alright (translation : why have you not been showering me in your worshipping attention?!). I cut the conversation to a short end and said "look I have to go I'm about to meet with my new date, I'll call you later tonight" - it was quite spiteful but all I could think up. She was taken aback by this as you can imagine, she's used to me always putting her first, spending ages listening and talking to her, massaging her ego in the process, having her on a pedestal that no-one else comes close to or interferes with. Well anyway I DIDN'T call her, I had no intentions in doing so.
The next day she sent me an email basically saying she's confused as to why I hadn't called her like I said I would, saying now she understands how people feel when she does the same to them (remorse is not normally a characteristic she knows very well). Non-fulfilling of her promises is something she does to all of her male admirers, her mind game tactics are one of "yeah, I'll call you later tonight" or "I'll meet you at.....", which she rarely does in what I believe to be quite a calculating manner. Rather weakly, but more out of politeness, I replied briefly, saying "Oh yeah I forgot, sorry about that." But I wasn't sorry. Am I wrong to feel satisfaction for her feeling on this one occasion, how I've felt hundreds of times?
Several more emails have come in from her since, which I haven't answered, one saying she is happy for me and my new date, another saying being too busy to spend time on her is a good way to teach her a lesson (she is always too busy to see me). I think right now she probably is wondering if I'm playing mind games, whereas all I'm trying to do is cure myself of her effect on me! Some of you will say I should have just deleted the emails before I read them, and I know you are probably correct.
Anyway, this is what frustrates me about attempting a NC path in my situation. With my LO, she's always inversely aligned with my attention for her. If I'm aloof she chases me....if I'm keen, she's aloof. The more distant I become, the more available she is to me, thus fulfilling my limerent fantasy. The last few times I tried NC, she wanted to see me and embrace "us", (she normally always keeps me at arm's length, our contact through an interface, not in person), and she appears more interested in me (most likely to win my favour back), we enjoy it, but, then I become actively keen again.... Does my situation sound familiar to anyone else's and why is it so perverse in its irony?
Graeme
In a predictable manner after several days of no contact, my LO came chasing me. I'm almost certain she thrives on the attention as well as the mental stimulus I give her. Now I feel quite guilty though, because I used diversion and lies on this occasion, even though I felt it was necessary for my NC therapy.
She phoned me fairly late on my work line, we don't have caller ID so I have to answer, but I almost knew it was her before answering. I did decide that for once the conversation would be brief and without pandering to her needs. She asked how I was, and was I alright (translation : why have you not been showering me in your worshipping attention?!). I cut the conversation to a short end and said "look I have to go I'm about to meet with my new date, I'll call you later tonight" - it was quite spiteful but all I could think up. She was taken aback by this as you can imagine, she's used to me always putting her first, spending ages listening and talking to her, massaging her ego in the process, having her on a pedestal that no-one else comes close to or interferes with. Well anyway I DIDN'T call her, I had no intentions in doing so.
The next day she sent me an email basically saying she's confused as to why I hadn't called her like I said I would, saying now she understands how people feel when she does the same to them (remorse is not normally a characteristic she knows very well). Non-fulfilling of her promises is something she does to all of her male admirers, her mind game tactics are one of "yeah, I'll call you later tonight" or "I'll meet you at.....", which she rarely does in what I believe to be quite a calculating manner. Rather weakly, but more out of politeness, I replied briefly, saying "Oh yeah I forgot, sorry about that." But I wasn't sorry. Am I wrong to feel satisfaction for her feeling on this one occasion, how I've felt hundreds of times?
Several more emails have come in from her since, which I haven't answered, one saying she is happy for me and my new date, another saying being too busy to spend time on her is a good way to teach her a lesson (she is always too busy to see me). I think right now she probably is wondering if I'm playing mind games, whereas all I'm trying to do is cure myself of her effect on me! Some of you will say I should have just deleted the emails before I read them, and I know you are probably correct.
Anyway, this is what frustrates me about attempting a NC path in my situation. With my LO, she's always inversely aligned with my attention for her. If I'm aloof she chases me....if I'm keen, she's aloof. The more distant I become, the more available she is to me, thus fulfilling my limerent fantasy. The last few times I tried NC, she wanted to see me and embrace "us", (she normally always keeps me at arm's length, our contact through an interface, not in person), and she appears more interested in me (most likely to win my favour back), we enjoy it, but, then I become actively keen again.... Does my situation sound familiar to anyone else's and why is it so perverse in its irony?
Graeme
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Re: NC Irony
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:06 PMIt's not irony, it's primitive manipulation on the part of your LO. Here’s a question you can ask yourself. If you could have your wishes fulfilled, and have her as your own, how long do you see it lasting? Months, years? Do you think she suits you? Do you drink? You know how the older you get the more you consider the hangover before having another one, even though it seems like a great idea at the time, while intoxicated? I think this woman, once in your life, would give you the hangover from hell. Do yourself a favor and go find someone normal, or relatively normal. -
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Re: NC Irony
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 7:45 AMUni, herein lies the irony. I know everything you say is true, but limerence is the jester which usurps our sensibilities. It doesn't matter what my logical side thinks, it's my limerent irrational emotional side which holds a powerful dominion over me. Doing myself the favour, finding someone normal would be marvellous if it were as simple as a sentence expresses. -
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Re: NC Irony
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 12:03 PMBut it is once you are free. I quit smoking a long time ago. Couldn't imagine doing things without one. Now, I can't even remember what I liked about it. Sorry, I don't mean to be flippant, it wasn't easy for me either to get de-limerent, but again, once it's over, it's amazing. -
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Re: NC Irony
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 12:59 PMIt all seems part of the classic game to me, like others have said...people take you for granted until suddenly you're not there anymore. Or the ego boost you provide isn't there. Then they flounder around and pander to you to get it back. I think this is probably very similar to what we were talking about in the "art of seduction" thread. I bet part of the seduction occurs when you don't make yourself too available, and that's why people tell you to cancel on someone you're interested in, or be "too busy" to make plans...it's supposed to make them want you more. Now that you're doing this to your LO, she misses the safety of always having you around and wants you back.
I hope you can stay strong and resist the temptation to give in to your LO's attentions, being aware that they are not sincere and that you can free yourself. Slowly but surely we become more aware of our own worth as we move out of limerence.
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Unsu...
Re: NC Irony
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 2:33 PMI have known your LO; as it says somewhere, "her name is legion."
I'd say that your value to her resides in your willingness to let her set the terms of your relationship. She doesn't want to lose you, but she knows that your ambient feelings for her are so powerful that she can neglect you without consequences; and when you move away, she only needs to chat you up a little and suddenly you are attentively worshiping again.
It seems like an unequal relationship, but I think most people, including non-limerents, have accepted such relationships, and for a variety of reasons.
The ultimate question is this--what are you getting out of the relationship?
Doug -
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Re: NC Irony
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:12 PMDoug, I am so glad you're here - your insight time and again has been very powerful. My LO hasn't set the terms and manipulated me that overtly, but I am certain he knows he can - particularly the bit about neglect without consequences. And your ultimate question really stopped me in my tracks - I am getting almost NOTHING out of the relationship with my LO. Everything I so valued from him - friendship, good conversation, in the old days an ego boost, things I learned from him on topics that mattered most to us both - I get all of those things better from other people in my life. I don't need them from him, particularly not when it comes with so much emotional damage. I am so much stronger and better than that. Thank you. -
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Re: NC Irony
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:45 PMSame happen to me, she wants ro cut me off I do it first she calls. My friend uses this all the time dith girls but he don't get limerent like me he us a natural. But I DO get limerent since the age if 8 so although I know the game the urge for romantic live is too strong for me to use it in normal dating. But also as I have said in the past I get limerent for Narcasists.
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Re: NC Irony
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 7:55 AMWhat are you getting out of the relationship?
A whole lot of angst! (Thanks limerence.)
But if I'm totally honest, and this is as objective as I can be given the circumstances, my LO is probably one of the most intellectually stimulating people I know, which is THE big problem for me. My relationship with her is founded on this.
Doug, I do love your insight though, wisdom is your friend. -
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Re: NC Irony
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 9:54 AMHello Graeme. I am sorry to read of your struggle with this manipulative person...that's what it is, you know...her manipulation. You are right I believe that she must get a tremendous boost from the attentions you give her, and the feeling of power and control over you she feels she has. She makes you jump like a puppet on a string, and it excites and amuses her. In truth, I am sad for her...there is such an emptiness of moral values, and lack of empathy. She is unable to feel for the pain of others...or perhaps it is more accurate to say she is indifferent to it (or at least it takes a back seat to) the feelings of others at the profit to her personal pleasure. That is very sad...in the end, she is the biggest loser. But in the interim, you are the one being harmed most, and you are the one for whom I am concerned...because you are here, needing our help, and it is the toll this manipulation of emotions is taking on you.
I can feel for your ordeal as I have experienced it too. Not with the present limerence...he (my LO) does not know of my feelings, or if he does, he does not let on. He has been kind to me, but I am certain it has not been to manipulate me. But this happened to me a great deal in my last limerence...my LO played with me as if he was a cat and I was a sparrow with a broken wing he had captured. He did not catch me for consumption...he was not hungry. He did so because it was his nature to use people, and he held on to me because it was a game to him...an amusement for him. If the sparrow struggled to escape, he would bat it with his paw. If the sparrow resigned in exhaustion and lay still, waiting for death to come, the cat would poke it with its claws a bit to get it to struggle again. The cat would go away when he tired of the game, but he still wants to keep the sparrow close by and alive to return to when he becomes bored again.
That's how my last LO was. He did not want me or value me enough to really give himself to me...but he enjoyed the feeling of superiority my groveling before him gave him. So he kept me on a string. When I appeared to get far away enough from him that I might break free and escape him altogether, he reeled me back in by feigning interest in me until he felt I was safely within his grasp again. Then it became dull to him again, and he would turn his back on me and would appear indifferent. And so it went for far too long.I watched in silent horror and shame as I surrendered my self-respect and dignity to him inch by inch...until there was nearly nothing left of it.
I hate to see this happen to you more than it has already, Graeme. You know you deserve better. Practically no one deserves to be treated as a prop in someone's stage play. I hope you will stand tall against this woman's manipulations. I know staying away is incredibly difficult, and it hurts as though it will kill you...I know. But you can survive, and you will...if you find the strength to be your own best friend, and reject this woman's orchestrations to get control of you. She will probably chase you for a while if you continue to be rejecting...but eventually, if she sees she's getting no where, she will probably tire of the game and wander off to seek other amusements. I hate to say this but it sounds as though you know already it's true...she does not value enough all that you are. -
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Re: NC Irony
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 10:28 AMVery nicely written as always. Graeme - I would just add again that you may be very surprised at how quickly you will feel better once you realize you have been released from the spell. And, this is the best part, you will see *everything* with a new set of eyes. You’ll discover the person behind the curtain is really quite average (if you know your Wizard of Oz) and perhaps a little sad, as suggested above. Either way, you’ll enjoy an unimaginable sense of empowerment and freedom. -
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Re: NC Irony
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 1:39 PMI too have had my LO chase me when I tried no contact. At one point he told me "I don't play games". Perhaps he doesn't see it, but I do. I have stopped chasing, deleted his information, stopped emailing and texting so many times now. I think the longest was a month and that really did help me turn the corner.
My LO is also very intellectual and I too feed my LO just like you mentioned Graeme. I suppose I will always have a place until I don't have anything new to teach/stimulate his mind.
All I can tell you is I truly belive NC is a great way to get a larger view of things. It is so hard and I wish you strength.
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Re: NC Irony
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 4:08 PMThank you DOUG!
I keep rereading your sentence:
"She doesn't want to lose you, but she knows that your ambient feelings for her are so powerful that she can neglect you without consequences; and when you move away, she only needs to chat you up a little and suddenly you are attentively worshiping again.
replacing the she with he. Reading this is helping me accept reality even though I am soo depressed right now.
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Re: NC Irony
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:20 PMGraeme,
Dude, stop fucking with her. How is it that it's ok to do the same thing to her that she did to you? What you should do FIRST is go full disclosure on her ass. Tell her the truth about your feelings, then tell her you have to go NO Contact with her, then tell her why you have to go NO Contact.
Lets face it, if she is still emailing you and you are still reading them you're not NC, you are just messing with her. Eventualy you WILL have a limerent outburst and contact her, or she will eventually find the right thing to say that will pull you back in.
Things are not worth doing if you don't do them right.
So do it the right way. It's the only way I was able to have sucessful NC with my limerent of 12 years. It was also the hardest things to do. But the right thing to do is always harder. -
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Re: NC Irony
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:30 PMSaid another way, stop f'ing with yourself .... (no offense).
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Re: NC Irony
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 5:36 PMTamy, thank you for your frankness, I really appreciate it, and I see a lot of sense in what you say. However, my LO knows how I feel about her, she always has, she has even told me how I feel about her in exacting detail like some sick counsellor. She uses it to manipulate me in an extreme and often malicious way. This I take full responsibility for, for being weak and emotionally malleable, to have become besotted with such a malevolent person, a puppet to fall foul to her whims, to have this limerent malady that I hate with a passion. It has hurt me a great deal, as I am sure you can relate to especially, having suffered 12 years.
I know I shouldn't read her emails, I suppose in many ways I see it as the swan song to how I used to reply to everything she sent me with great expediency, like some puppy dog. Her emails allude to the fact she knows why I am doing this, and what I am doing, we've gone through it before, so although you feel I need to reiterate it in cold punctuated manner, I really don't. You'll have to trust my word on this.
I can't talk to her any more, as soon as I open dialogue for even the shortest period - even to tell her I'm NC-ing her and massage her ego again by telling her it's because she's my LO, she'll ensnare me. It's happened before, it would again. So I am not trying to mess with her, I'm trying to keep myself protected. She has other admirers, so her focus on losing me as a toy will seep away in short time like the sands from an egg timer.
From reading many of the posts on the forum, it seems people approach NC in different ways, some immediately in a big leap, some gradually in small steps, some use disclosure, some explode in angry realisation, some excommunicate in sudden silence but they are all a means to the same end - a cure. For me, my path is resolute in its direction, it may not be how you wish me to continue, or how you would do it (we are all unique people with a spectrum of opinions and philosophies), but in my mind and knowing the full picture of my circumstances, it is the path I've seen as best to travel on.
Once again, thank you - I mean that with the greatest sincerity - for your time and advice.
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Re: NC Irony
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 5:57 PMWhile it's always easy to advise another person (as you well know) it's tough to see the obvious solution to a personal dilemma. I'm glad you're choosing NC Graeme but as I understand it, it is more comprehensive than you are employing. I don't think there is partial NC. You either do it, or don't do it. You can cut back your exposure to LO and try to limit your emotional contact but that's not the same as NC. NO CONTACT is simply none. Also, I have to agree with the other folks who called you on the payback you have delivered your LO. Frankly her motives/behavior should not be a model for you to follow even if (especially if) it feels good to pay her back some of the emotional torment you've lived with. It all really comes down to,
1) She is obviously playing a game with you.
2) Do you want to continue playing?
3) If you do, keep on with the payback and you can pretty much guarantee you'll have some painful blowback yourself very soon (if not already).
4) If you don't want to play her game anymore (and it most certainly is HER game not yours) you need to quit. Sorry if it's harsh but the truth often is in our limerence world. -
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Re: NC Irony
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 6:20 PMThanks, I agree with what you say but I did say "approach NC" in my last post and in my original post.
I'm not trying to payback either, any initial positive response I felt about her experiencing my pain, has gone and is now replaced with ignominy and sadness. -
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Re: NC Irony
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:33 AMI don't know what's worse, being NC and having LO make contact or being NC and having LO NOT make contact. There's an irony! -
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Re: NC Irony
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 8:01 AMYES! What hurt me the most in the limerent journey was when I told my LO to leave me alone and he DID! -
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Re: NC Irony
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:50 AMRD, Andrew, Everyone...I have come to conclude that there is no way to be in this state (at any stage) and hot have it hurt. I think that thread about creativity had some excellent outlets for relief. I'm going to drag myself down to the studio now and try to do something creative. Whenever I can get into that "zone" it gives me a break from all this emotional chaos. It's just tough to get started. Here I go.... -
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Re: NC Irony
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 3:13 PMWhen you decided to go NC, what was behind doing it? Were you judging your LO to be a bad person? Or were you judging the relationship with your LO as bad? Or did your SO request it? Wondering if we're all the same on the reason. -
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Re: NC Irony
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:53 PMIn my case, I decided to go NC to save my dignity. Continuing to want someone who does not respond, gets humiliating after a while. -
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Re: NC Irony
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 10:22 AMAt the height of my limerence, I kept a log. I wrote down every contact. I counted the days in between. I made the time longer and longer. I did NC to not push my LO away completely. I knew if I gave into the obsessive compulsion to see/talk to him, he would be freaked out and never talk to me again.
I went NC for a month except seeing him at work occassionally, but no talk. He finally broke the NC. He wanted the friendship. He waited for me to even-out, but he missed the ego feed I think. It pushed him off the fence and made him ask for my friendship. I wasn't even sure I would get that in the beginning.
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Re: NC Irony
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 7:02 AMMy NC just kind of happened. Now that a lot of time has gone by, I can look back and say, ah yes, things were coming to a head. At the time I would have said I felt really helpless and wanted her to love me but that I had just come to realize that she never would. Now I can also see that I was frustrated by so many things large and small and wasn't hiding it very well. As she sensed she didn't have my full rapture anymore, she drew away and even started treated me worse and worse. I had spent so many years wooing her and I didn't have the energy to start over again. I think that when you really love someone you are willing to start over again. She was more like a failed project. That sounds cold, I know.
I'm sure if you were to ask either one of us who made the decision to go NC, we would both claim it! (Not that she knows the term, but you know what I mean.) I told her I wasn't going to see her anymore and then she told me never to darken her door again. Sort of the opposite of you can't fire me, I quit, you know?
This thread has reminded me of something I wanted to mention. When my LO and I dissolved our relationship, I was vaguely worried that I or one of my kids would get really sick. Like terminally so. I hated the thought of her knowing that about us, either feeling sorry for us or thinking that it was what we deserved. I know that's nutty, but when I told a wise friend of mine about it she said, "Wow, she had so much power over you." and it hit me, she absolutely did. She was like a religion or a god (yech, when I think of her now it's laughable) and it was as if leaving her, defying her, having her hate me was outside the normal realm of nature and I would pay the price somehow. I don't know if anyone else has had that sensation. We had a very long relationship. Commencing with NC was a very fearful time for me at the same time that it was empowering. I guess if it were easy, we'd all do it sooner. BTW to those in the throes, it DOES get easier.
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Re: NC Irony
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 11:18 AMIt was most def. for my own self respect, dignity. I couldn't take the pain any longer.
Last night I heard this song... when I told him to bug off I was hoping he'd do this:
www.youtube.com/watch
LOL There was 0% chance of that happening.
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Re: NC Irony
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 6:43 AMMy LO just scrubs people out of her universe if they reflect a view of her that she doesn't like. She definitely does not keep coming back once that happens.
I knew that once we were done, we were DONE, and that hurt a lot -- but ultimately made it easier. I was never wondering if I was going to hear from her someday. However, we live in a fairly small and isolated area and probably will run into each other in a restaurant or Target some day. Awkward but as each month and year goes by I know I can handle it better.
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