To my current understanding, we live multi-dimensionally. Due to our physical limitations and social conditioning we are mostly only vaguely aware of any of those dimensions. Through diverse projects we are able to access more of what is there, to take different views of our environs, to experience and learn different ways of seeing and understanding, and to develop methods of using these other kinds of resources.


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"To which field does magic belong? Or is its project something radically different?"

This post was deleted by Sardonyx

Thank Bob as moderator I can delete posts, and so finally can edit my own posts. Tribe badly needs an "edit" function.

Anyway, here is my (edited) post.

"I find that nothing in magic works consistently and reliably. Is this due..."

I think its due to the fact that magic, despite all our best efforts, remains an Art, not a Science, and, I believe, must remain so. Science is the study of the objective. Art deals with the subjective. Magic, I feel, is the interplay between the subjective and the objective. It cannot be pinned down, it will not be pinned down. Most of the techniques for success are by their nature, subjective; meditation, altered states, visualization, will, love; If there were an objective type of magic - wave the wand and say "Sim Salabim" - then it would simply be another branch of science, as indeed Al-Chemistry and Astronomy are today. What remains is that which cannot be pinned down in textbooks.
Where Science is limited, is in its inability (or choice) to limit itself to that which can be written down, that which IS invariant.

"Science tries to make sense of the rigging; religion and spirituality try to redeem us from the vision of futility and make our lives seem meaningful."

As a scientist; I should say that I feel that Science redeems from futility and provides meaning, to an extent greater perhaps than religion. It is however difficult to explain this to a non-scientist. Engagement with reality at the cutting edge provides a level of meaning that I havent found in most churches, which recite tired old myths. Understanding the Cosmos inspires an awe; Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" gave a feel for it. To find infinity in a grain of sand and eternity in an hour. The best way I can explain it would be to consider that scientists get the same feeling studying the "book of God" (nature) as the sufis would get studying scripture. At one level, its a trance obtained from close concentration; on another level, its derived from the material itself. Developing a close interest in anything, I suppose, might provide the same effect. Meditation, Gardening, Mountain Climbing. The concentration is one part; the interaction with the universe the second.

When we understand Magic, finally, I think we will finally have reconciled the conscious with the subconscious, the head with the heart, the objective with the subjective. And then the solution will necessarily come. But Magic as an escape from reality, probably is not a solution.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

"I find that nothing in magic works consistently and reliably. Is this due to my lack of talent, skill and commitment, or is magic still at the stage of a pre-scientific empiricism that is little more than a sophisticated form of superstition"

your first statement is rather facile. perhaps you could expand on it. what are you trying to accomplish? what is your foundation? how serious are your studies? i ask because i haven't the foggiest, so don't be offended. do you study the way someone studies for, say, a masters in engineering? do you study, say, the way the average american football player studies high school physics? the first half of your question is impossible to answer without background.

the second clause in you question can be dealt with objectively to a certain extent, although i do question the need for it's implications and also the artificially imposed binary nature of the inquiry. the answer, however, is both yes and no depending on what you're up to. your typical neo-pagan, for example, is fundamentally a superstitious creature. there's very little drive to understand the principles as a whole, and most of their time seems to be spent on looking up recipes. there's a whole wing of the publishing industry devoted to providing them with same. there are exceptions to this, but we've all observed the behavior.

the order that i belong to is quite a bit more rigorous, and the testing to prove your mastery of magick is extremely intense as well as wildy improbable to fake your way through. the efficacy of magick depends entirely on the training and skill of the practicioner, just like anything else.

to put it another way, just because i failed to split the atom when provided with a few photographs of a nuclear power plant and a blueprint doesn't disprove nuclear physics.

"Or is magic just a dream of engagement with the world? Something with which we can amuse ourselves while sitting by ourselves in coffee shops? "

again, it depends on the training and skill of the magician, as well as their dedication to the work.

"Science tries to make sense of the rigging; religion and spirituality try to redeem us from the vision of futility and make our lives seem meaningful. To which field does magic belong? Or is its project something radically different? "

i don't entirely accept the frame of your question, but with respect to your nautical metaphor magic is the attempt to Become the rigging and drink the sea and sky both.

"Does magic give us the illusion of being able to manipulate a world in which we find ourselves alienated? We are social animals who accomplish things through collective action, not by sitting in coffee shops and manipulating our consciousness. But we are alienated from our collective potency by an economic system that exploits us by commercialising our desires, and abandons us to an atomised society. Of course, collectively we are potentially a menace. As Arthur Koestler said, the selfishness of the group feeds upon the altruism of the individual, and the destructive effects of mass political and nationalistic movements, and other sorts of tribal conflict, are the proof of this. This is what consumerism is designed to redeem us from. But at what price, and does magic really offer a solution?"

as for your first question, any manner of dilettante may hide in the arms of any discipline at all to attempt to create meaning where there Is None. this is not a reflection on the discipline.

why would you look for a solution to consumerism in magick? don't mix the planes - you might as well look for an answer to poverty in calculus. magick can easily free a magician from consumerism, if that's in harmony with his or her will. that's distinct from the meta-consumerism that you seem to be describing.

Love is the law, love under will