Hello All! I've just been invited to join by the lovely Diana. So here I am. :D
This is xposted, so I'm sorry if you are reading it in two places.
Yesturday I was sitting in one of my India History classes and the prof made a comment about bellydancers in Greek restaurants. His wife is Greek and he claims there is no connection. So I got to thinking...
What connection does bellydancing have to Greece? Are they culturally connected? Why do we dance in Greek restaurants?
If you have insight, links, or sources, I would welcome them.
Thank you and nice to meet you :)
This is xposted, so I'm sorry if you are reading it in two places.
Yesturday I was sitting in one of my India History classes and the prof made a comment about bellydancers in Greek restaurants. His wife is Greek and he claims there is no connection. So I got to thinking...
What connection does bellydancing have to Greece? Are they culturally connected? Why do we dance in Greek restaurants?
If you have insight, links, or sources, I would welcome them.
Thank you and nice to meet you :)
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 3:11 PMMy instructor is Greek, and she says that it is because Greece and Turkey have an interconnected history; because Turkish people bellydance it got cross-pollinated to Greece sort of.
Also, in the 50's there was a mix of all sorts of emigrants from the Levant, the ME, Anatolia, and so forth. They met at the clubs and the dances got mixed there in a way, that's why classic American Cabaret is its own style, it's been influenced by all of those cultures.
Someone who knows a lot more than I do could probably chime in here though.
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 4:59 PMMorocco writes about this in her article "So What Else Is New (or Old)?"
You can read the article in full here: www.casbahdance.org/OLDNEW.htm
The specific quote is this
"7. There is no such thing as a true "Greek" style. THEY, themselves, call it Anatholitiko Khoro: Anatolian (Turkish) dance. That's from whom/where they got it, along with 500 years of oppression: the dictatorship under the Ottoman Empire."
Morocco expands upon the statement in he paragraphs below. The whole article is excellent reading and a great history lesson as well. -
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Thu, February 1, 2007 - 12:40 PMThanks ~lots~ for posting the above link, Julia. It was verrrrry educational. I'm just starting to learn about such things so I can't thank you enough! I don't know if I would have thought to find that particular article on my own. -
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Thu, February 1, 2007 - 3:13 PMI think Shira's link better answers the question Keyna asked, but reading any of Morocco's work is always a great learning experience. :)
This thread has added to my store of knowledge, too.
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Wed, January 31, 2007 - 7:41 PMHere's a link to the response I posted to your question in the other tribe: tribes.tribe.net/barefooti...cf60315e81 -
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Tue, February 6, 2007 - 3:40 AMHere is a piece of relevant modern greek history....
After the Byzantine and Othoman empires, where modern Greece and Turkey were under one nation for decades, it is natural that Greek and Turkish people, especially near the modern borders, were both lived together in the same communities, danced to the same songs...
Tsifteteli (which exists both in greek and turkish language) was danced and sang by everybody.
BUT after a while and in an attempt from government and academics to "westernise" as well as give a new identity to "greeks" that was closer to the "ancient greek" ideal, songs with an anatolian flair like tsifteteli and rebetiko became illegal, and only folk (village) dances from the islands and mainland where considered as "dance heritage". Some dances - like the famous sirtaki - where even invented...
Indeed nowadays, tsifteteli, althought by far the no1 form danced in clubs today, is considered "turkish" or "eastern dancing".... and thought in clubs everybody dances tsifteteli, in greek taverns in greece, you'll never see a professional dancer.
Here professional dancers dance at oriental restaurants. -
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Thu, February 8, 2007 - 6:53 AM"Tsifteteli (which exists both in greek and turkish language) was danced and sang by everybody. "
by this I mean not that tsifteteli is a greek word but that it is sang both in greek and turkish, and tsifteteli songs with greek lyrics exist. -
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Thu, March 8, 2007 - 4:28 PMAncient Greek art in paintings, pottery and sculpture is a reliable source for what ancient belly dance looked like because of their pioneering the "natural," "realistic," or three dimensional type of art. It is more reliable than ancient Egyptian art which was done by a mathematical "grid" because of the ancient Egyptians craving for uniformity. Later, under the influence of the realism movement in Greek art, Egyptian art began to change.
The reliabilty of the ancient Greek art proves that Greece indeed had belly dancing which is based on ancient fertility rites because the Greek men's dances, line dances, etc. were the same steps and movements observed in Greek nightclubs over the years as well.
My mother Johanna worked in Chicago's Greektown very often on tour and she particularly loved an engagement at a club where immigrants from the Isle of Crete were patrons. She had a special dance rapport with the Greek instrument called the Lyra. The Lyra player was brought over especially from Crete. The dances the patrons did were unchanged from what you saw on pottery.
Before the modern mass media of the last half century or so, news traveled slower, customs remained amazingly intact.
The Greeks used to carry their candles en mass into the Greektown NYC clubs after their Greek Easter celebrations to see the belly dancers. In the days of yore, no doubt it must have been "Athena" they paid their homage to.
Modern Greeks are Christians which is "Patriarchal," but the Greeks still have the veneration for women. Businesses were always registered in the woman's name so a husband could not take it from her in divorce, etc.
The Greeks love of the "democracy" ideal they pioneered was also evident in Greektown NYC for one. The Greeks paid their entertainers handsomely through a special method. My mother made more in a week than her husband made as a printer in the union at the NY Times Newspaper.
Modern Greeks, unfortunately, are forgetting their ancient ties to fertility dances. They are thinking of belly dance as only "Turkish" in origin. This is just not the case.
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Mon, March 12, 2007 - 11:38 AMLook at the message posted by MariaAya on this bhuz thread: www.bhuz.com/forum/topic.asp . She talks a bit more about the relationship between Greece and Egypt. -
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Mon, March 19, 2007 - 1:42 PMThanks Shira, I'll check it out.
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Re: The Greek Connection Xpstd
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 12:54 PMHi there all :)
Here I'm copying from another tribe (but on the same subject)
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Hi ladies and gent :)
There is something that I read all over internet and its something that at somepoint have to be cleared.
There is NO thing as greek routine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I teach greek tsifteteli from the era of 1920 to 1970 and we dont have such thing.
The term "greek routine" was invented by the greeks that were abroad and just wanted to listen to greek songs also, and was adobted by the system of AmCab and transformed.
Its not originaly this way, and if we wanna speak of authenticy, no way you got to wear a cabaret costume to it.
A full long beautiful dress or a salvare with blouse and scarf at hair is the wearing to go with.
We DONT use veil, we dont use sword, we dont use floor work at the extent that people think so (very minimized) and we certainly DONT use zills !!!
I know this may come a shock for you, but now outside of greece live 3rd, 4rth generation greeks that even dont speak a greek word.
yes you may continue doing it the way you do it, but keep in mind that the connection with original greek tsifteteli is zero !!!
Maria Aya, Athens Greece "
Greek bellydance or better say it tsifteteli never reached the staged shows as performance dance, but always (the last 100 years) (and what dance of today have living in the people life more than this?) is in the houses in the nightclubs in the restaurants.
As social dance !!!
Now about Moroco's article, total disagree.
As a greek, greeks never refer to tsifteteli as anatolitikos xoros, we may call it smyrneiko, or politiko, but anatolitiko (eastern) means arab for us
Maria Aya hope helped a bit
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