I don't know if this is a case of journalists twisting the words of the dancer (far too common) or someone giving a pet theory as fact to one, but I was a little taken aback by one of the historical "facts" about snakelike movements given in this article...

www.sacbee.com/107/story/102520.html
posted by:
Diana
Nashville
  • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

    Thu, January 4, 2007 - 9:03 AM
    I tried to access the story, but it gave me a logon screen so I couldn't see it.
    • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

      Thu, January 4, 2007 - 9:09 AM
      That's weird. I can access from Google just fine, but trying to access it from here gives the login screen. Here's the quote:

      "Many of the moves in belly dancing are borrowed from nature, especially from snakes. Morad mentions the undulations and figure eights as movements that are particularly snakelike. "A lot of women freak out when I tell them that, because they don't like snakes," she says.

      When belly dancing was developed in the Middle East, most of the movements had specific meanings. "They believed that by imitating animals they would gain the power of that animal or take on those characteristics," Morad says."
      • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

        Thu, January 4, 2007 - 4:26 PM
        Um, so far as the quote, I'd be curious to find her sourcing. And "someone from over there told me so" isn't an automatically true source.
        Another example of her being off is the childbirth bit -- as anyone who's read Morocco's seminal article knows, it's Certain Specific Movements, not the entire dance, that's based on a ritualized childbirth dance.

        People wonder why I insist on trying to source my opinion work, as well as my historical writings. And it's exactly because of having read far, far too many "histories" like this one, and GRANDMOTHER'S SECRETS, which seem to be more about the hearsay than about actually encouraging people to be intrigued by the form. *facepalm*
        • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

          Sat, January 6, 2007 - 3:41 PM
          I still remember the scandal on The Gilded Serpent when some woman out West did an interview with the local paper and started talking about "birthing huts."

          They ripped her apart on the GS, and then turned it into a nasty "Tribal Dancers don't know what they're talking about blah, blah, blah" thing.

          ::rolls his eyes::
      • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

        Sat, March 17, 2007 - 7:34 AM
        Just more rubbish. This came up on the Orientaldancer forum. I visited this woman's websight and look at her video clips and blogs. She has no knowledge at all about Middle Eastern history or culture, or Egyptian dance. Just another fantasist.
      • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

        Mon, March 19, 2007 - 4:54 AM
        'When belly dancing was developed in the Middle East, most of the movements had specific meanings. "They believed that by imitating animals they would gain the power of that animal or take on those characteristics," Morad says." '

        That reminds me a lot of the trance work done by the San bushmen in southern Africa (for a detailed explanation read the work by David Lewis-Williams and Thomas Dowson, many books and papers on the subject). They believe that some of the animals in their environment have specific powers, and when they are in a trance they may become like them and gain their powers. They depicted this in their rock art (They don't make art anymore but some of the old paintings are still viewable in various areas of south africa, especially the Drakensburg).

        Of course, absolutely nothing ot do with bellydance. It sounds to me like either the writer has come across these ideas in TV documentaries or coffee table books/magazine and has decided to apply it to bellydance, or alternatively she's come across the work of somebody else who has and has decided it must be fact.
      • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

        Mon, March 19, 2007 - 8:54 AM
        Although I recognize that SOME movement disciplines (such as Tai Chi) come from emulating how animals move, I've never heard ANY reason to believe this applies to belly dancing.

        In an online documentary called Crazed - The Bellydance, Oreet claims that figure 8's come from teaching an adolescent girl how round her hips will become during pregnancy: www.currenttv.com/watch/17137320

        These pet theories make me shake my head.
  • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

    Sat, September 15, 2007 - 2:39 PM
    i couldn't access this either : (
    • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

      Sun, September 16, 2007 - 10:46 AM
      Just for the sake of opening up conversation...

      I am not a beginning Middle Eastern dancer...I've studied seriously for over 12 years...everything I can get my hands on...every workshop I could find and afford. Several excellent long-term instructors. An excellent and generous community of dancers at my level who support and cheer each others continued exploration and achievement.

      I AM a beginning African dancer with an unbelievably knowledgable teacher Noemia Reis. This quote (at the heart of this debate) is true of African dance. We are often emulating snakes, birds, horses, etc. In the dances she teaches, there is no "dancing for fun" or "social dancing". All dancing has a purpose...invocation, blessing, emulating nature and creature's from nature. From other African teachers I've learned African dances of freedom, dances of healing, dances of seduction and more....but always a purpose and meaning.

      If I understand correctly, in very very old Africa, once they shared a single language and single religion. (Am looking forward to further researching this assertion.) Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt are all African countries. African dance is certainly one of the varied and fascinating roots of our dance. I've been fascinated both by similarities in movements but also in some drum rhythms (Ayoub in particular so far).

      A second root that come to mind that supports the quote is Khalbelia Gypsy dance from Rajasthan. They call themselves the "snake charmer" gypsies and their movements invoke the cobra. It's gorgeous and easy to see some of the roots our dance form in their dance. It is a generally accepted idea that "Gypsy" Rom originating from India have carried and impacted our dance throughout place and time.

      It only takes two generations to lose a language (we know that from our American heritage where some grandkids can't communicate with their grandparents). In Alaska we are learning that it only takes 3 or 4 generations for an entire language to become extinct...several of our indigineous languages are less than 15 years from extinction as the last fluent elders are in their late 60's early 70's. Just because it's no longer recognized, does it mean it didn't exist? Is dance any different? Just because we forgot the meaning does it mean it never existed?

      Also, I can't remember where I read it but somewhere I've heard our dance form referred to as "la dansa serpiente" (or something similar).

      I love Kajira's analogy of our dance as a really big tree with many many branches and many many roots. Taking our inspiration from so many places, times, cultures, etc will ensure meaningful and interesting debates from here to eternity... :-)!

      I'm not saying she's correct in passing this off to the media and it's not something I share in my classes. It's certainly not a part of our generally accepted history as blessed by Morocco, Aisha, Artemis, etc.(at least as far as I know). Just thought it might be the bones of an interesting discussion.
      • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

        Tue, September 18, 2007 - 8:43 AM
        Some moves from Turkish or Central Asian dance also have animal mimicry.
        It's all part of the big melting pot. When you take a dance out of the social or regional context, I don't think you can apply the 'this is what it is, and where it came from' any more.

        I can see the Snake connection, tho - in many countries Snakes did have Amuletic powers and were used on clothing, and such for protection. Don't see why it couldn't work into the dances as well.
        I've never heard it used as the origin of belly dance before, tho. I also wonder where she got that source.
      • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

        Thu, September 20, 2007 - 5:05 AM
        "If I understand correctly, in very very old Africa, once they shared a single language and single religion. (Am looking forward to further researching this assertion.) "

        Africa is a huge continent which has a vast range of climates and as a result vegetartion and animal life, and indeed you can see biological differences between people from different parts of Africa as groups have adapted to the climate of the part of the continent they live in. As a result I find it very hard to believe that that was ever the case. Humans evolved in Africa so if you go back far enough we all have roots there, but that's asbout as near as your going to get to the idea that there was ever truely a single religion and language. There is a limited number of social connections we can deal with as individuals which means that we do inevitably form groups and when humans form groups you get things like language difference, religious difference, cultural difference and so on. Things can be related sure, but not entirely the same, look at the difference between the way English is spoken in the uK and the US< or the regional dialects and accents that we have within the UK, and that's just one little country a fraction of the size of Africa.
        • Re: News article and bellydance "history"

          Thu, September 20, 2007 - 10:25 AM
          I don't disagree with you (which is why I "qualified" my comment)...and it's going to be an interesting albeit difficult topic to research.

          The assertion of one people is interesting even if only that's it's been passed down in oral history....or in myth....tower of Babel-type story, etc.

          I remain curious about connections or historical relationships between the dances of Africa and the dances of North Africa. Has anybody spent much time or energy here?

          This is a bit silly but back to the original assertion connecting the "serpentine" movements remaining in our dance form to some ancient channeling of that animals power. My father's Grandmother spoke only Italian. He speaks only English. She taught him a prayer/poem/nursery rhyme. He dutifully taught it to all his children as "the Italian Prayer/alternatively Italian Poem". It has been so bastardized by time and interpretation that it's no longer intelligible to Italian speakers. As adults, myself and my siblings still know it by heart and it connects us to our past...though it's nothing more than nonsense syllables to us....we don't even know if it's a prayer or poem or nursery rhyme (neither did our father) but I'll likely share it with my girls now that they are old enough. It doesn't take long when you remove something from it's original culture and purpose for meaning to be lost. Our dance movements come from so many different times, places, peoples, roots, sources that I'd be surprised if there weren't a few snakes emulators in there somewhere....






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