LettersContested history that haunts the Middle East peace processThe Guardian, Saturday May 3 2008 About this articleClose This article appeared in the Guardian on Saturday May 03 2008 on p39 of the Leaders & reply section. It was last updated at 00:07 on May 03 2008. The statements that there was "no massacre at Deir Yassin" and that "no one has ever found evidence of an ideology of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians" (Letters, May 2) cannot be allowed to stand. Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine is meticulously researched and referenced, citing Israeli and Zionist material as well as Arab sources. In it, for example, Pappe reports Herzl's view that "cleansing the land was a valid option" and quotes from the alleged "liberal" thinker Leo Motzkin in 1917: "Our thought is that the colonisation of Palestine has to go in two directions: Jewish settlement in Eretz Israel and the resettlement of the Arabs of Eretz Israel in areas outside the country. The transfer of so many Arabs may seem at first unacceptable economically, but is none the less practical. It does not require too much money to resettle a Palestinian village on another land."
Pappe also refers to the Hagana-implemented systematic and detailed identification of the location and characteristics of all Arab villages, including individuals who were thought likely to present problems. He writes of the subsequent use of this information, first in a campaign of intimidation and then in "expulsion and destruction".
Lyndon Pugh
Brecon, Powys
A massacre did indeed occur at Deir Yassin and even worse atrocities were perpetrated in Haifa, Tantura, Dawaymeh and elsewhere, as documented by the Jewish historians Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim. Plan Dalet did involve ethnic cleansing. At least 10,000 Palestinians were killed, more than 30,000 injured and 750,000 were driven out of their homes and their land. Over 400 of their villages were razed to the ground and 60% of Palestinians became homeless.
David Pegg
York
The letters responding to Messrs Fry, Rose, Pinter et al (Letters, April 30) demonstrate the problem we still face 60 years since the Naqba and the establishment of Israel in Palestine: the denial by Zionists of Palestinians, their rights and that Israel was set up in their land and against their will. They should be directing their frustration and anger at the then Zionist leaders who sold them the lie that Palestine was a "land without a people for a people without a land".
As a Palestinian, I applaud Jews who realise the injustice that befell the Palestinians and are prepared to stand up and say this knowing the vicious attacks they will endure. We will only have peace in Palestine when Zionists come to terms with the injustice and Israel has a leadership that will embark on a genuine peace process and reconciliation and not the charade that is Annapolis and post-Annapolis.
www.guardian.co.uk/world/20...estinians
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Re: Contested history that haunts the Middle East peace process
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 12:27 PMCarolyn.
There are two sides of this story. The crimes of the Arabs and ethnic cleansing of the Jews almost exactly mirrors the Nakba. These crimes are even more covered up and not talked about then the crimes of Israel.
> As a Palestinian, I applaud Jews who realise the injustice that befell the Palestinians and are prepared to stand up and say this knowing the vicious attacks they will endure. We will only have peace in Palestine when Zionists come to terms with the injustice and Israel has a leadership that will embark on a genuine peace process and reconciliation and not the charade that is Annapolis and post-Annapolis.
It's easy for a Palestinian to condemn Jews. But would would this man ever speak of the crimes of his own people and condemn them?
If not, he's just a part of the problem.
Will he applaud the Arabs who realise the injustice that befell the Jews and are prepared to stand up and say this knowing the vicious attacks they will endure. We will only have peace in Palestine when Arabs come to terms with the injustice they have committed and Palestinians and Arab countries have a leadership that will embark on a genuine peace process and reconciliation... -
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Re: Contested history that haunts the Middle East peace process
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 4:41 AMAdam:
<There are two sides of this story. The crimes of the Arabs and ethnic cleansing of the Jews almost exactly mirrors the Nakba. These crimes are even more covered up and not talked about then the crimes of Israel. >
Which crimes are you talking about? Where at? When? You can't expect to make open ended accusations and be taken seriously. You've got to tell us what your talking about. -
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Re: Contested history that haunts the Middle East peace process
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 12:16 PMSteve4:
1400 years of oppression. Forced conversions. Ethnic cleansing.
Watch this documentary.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Constipated history that haunts the Middle East peace process
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 5:43 AMAdam:
Thanks. I just updated my operating system thursday and can now view videos. So I watched the first one.
It looks like there were about six or seven facts provided in that 10 minute video.
In 586 BCE Jews were driven out of Palestine to Iraq.
The video provided the name of a Jew who walked from Iraq to Israel in 1945 but I could not understand what his name was. The video reported he organized 120,000 Jews to move to Israel.
622 AD saw the founding of Islam.
Dhimmi was practiced in Islamic middle eastern countries.
Jews and Christians could not ride horses.
Jews and Christians could not build there houses higher that Muslim houses.
Jews and Christians had to wear badges.
Synagogues could not be higher than mosques.
Ok, so that was eight facts. You keep harping everyday that the Jews were driven out of middle eastern countries. While your own video makes it look like they voluntarily moved to Israel.
<1400 years of oppression. Forced conversions. Ethnic cleansing.
Watch this documentary. >
It doesn't sound like the same story you are trying to push. I can't promise I'll view them all, but I'll try one more at least. But you need to have much better documentation than this. This is just individuals telling what they have heard with half a dozen facts thrown in.
I''ve got to know when did Israel start paying settlers to come to Israel before this could have very much effect on me.
THIS IS YOUR OWN STORY. Can you not see it? Israel is founded and says to the Jews of the world come and settle in Israel. They don't want you there and we do want you here. That's going to be attractive to a lot of people. If you throw in money it's like winning at craps. Why the hell not move to Israel?
So far the repression seems pretty mild and not reaching the state of oppression.
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Contested history that haunts the Middle East peace process
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 6:36 AMAdam:
I got thru 3 and 1/2 videos before they just go too slow that I couldn't watch anymore. What can I tell you it was WWII, the arabs and the Jews were on different sides. The same thing happened in India. I guess you will blame that on the Islamic people also. But what happened during WWII is no excuse to continue the conflict. In 1948 there was all the pressure in the world to get Israel going. But during the last 60 years Israel has forgot it must live with others. If Israel continues the same posture as it held in 1948 there will never be a solution. Does Israel want to fight for another 100 years because it refuses to live in justice with Palestinians? There can't just be a solution, there must be a just solution. That seems farther away everyday. -
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Re: Contested history that haunts the Middle East peace process
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 11:26 AM> Why the hell not move to Israel?
Was that directed towards me? I've actually been contemplating moving to Ramallah.
> Ok, so that was eight facts.
Those were just examples. Jews were required to be subservient to Muslims in every aspect of life.
> So far the repression seems pretty mild and not reaching the state of oppression.
You're saying that the Jews in Arab countries were "repressed" by not "oppressed"?
Are you serious!?!? Can you explain the difference? Can you reference some definitions?
> You keep harping everyday that the Jews were driven out of middle eastern countries. While your own video makes it look like they voluntarily moved to Israel.
"voluntarily"? One could just as easily argue that the Palestinian Arabs left voluntarily. As I understand it, Jews slaughtered one village and then the rest of the Palestinians left "voluntarily".
For 1400 years Jews were oppressed (or "repressed") in the Arab world. Often this oppression was relatively mild. On occasion, it got very bad with Muslims slaughtering or forcibly converting Jews in mass.
Then starting in the 1930s, along with the "Arabization" of the Middle East, the Arabs used this as an excuse to brutally oppress the Jews. Jews were slaughtered in pogroms, and their possessions were stolen.
In some cases, such as Egypt, Jew were actually banished
But, yes, largely penniless, and fearing for their lives Jews made a choice to leave Arab countries for the safety Israel.
Mirroring the Palestinian Arabs making a "choice" to leave for the safety of Arab countries.
> I''ve got to know when did Israel start paying settlers to come to Israel before this could have very much effect on me.
I don't know actually. But like almost everything in this conflict, you can easily find a mirror on the other side.
Israel encouraged Jews to move to Israel because it provided a more secure Israel.
Arab countries purposefully kept the Palestinian Arabs trapped as oppressed refugees, because it served their own ends.
Which is worse?
> What can I tell you it was WWII, the arabs and the Jews were on different sides. The same thing happened in India. I guess you will blame that on the Islamic people also.
I'm surprised you bring this up. The Arabs were on the other side. You could also phrase that as "The Arabs were on the side of the Nazis". You could further venture into the fact that a key Palestinian leader recruited Muslims SS troops, and was intimately involved in Hitler's plans to exterminate the Jews.
You speak of India. Just like breakup of India, the breakup of the Middle East involved a population exchange. And that's the nature of things today.
> If Israel continues the same posture as it held in 1948 there will never be a solution.
What posture did Israel hold in 1948?
This situation makes much more sense reversed. If members of the Arab world continued to hold the same posture as they held in 1948, there will never be a solution.
The Arab world has rejected Israel's right to exist. I don't recall Israel ever rejecting the Arab world's right to exist. :-)
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