An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

topic posted Thu, November 5, 2009 - 12:21 AM by  offlineJohn
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An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

(Updated: September 2002)

Background

To resolve what was called the "Jewish question" - i.e., the reciprocal challenges of Gentile repulsion or anti-Semitism and Gentile attraction or assimilation - the Zionist movement sought in the late nineteenth century to create an overwhelmingly, if not homogeneously, Jewish state in Palestine. (1) Once the Zionist movement gained a foothold in Palestine through Great Britain's issuance of the Balfour Declaration, (2) the main obstacle to realizing its goal was the indigenous Arab population. For, on the eve of Zionist colonization, Palestine was overwhelmingly not Jewish but Muslim and Christian Arab. (3)

Across the mainstream Zionist spectrum, it was understood from the outset that Palestine's indigenous Arab population would not acquiesce in its dispossession. "Contrary to the claim that is often made, Zionism was not blind to the presence of Arabs in Palestine," Zeev Sternhell observes. "If Zionist intellectuals and leaders ignored the Arab dilemma, it was chiefly because they knew that this problem had no solution within the Zionist way of thinking…. [I]n general both sides understood each other well and knew that the implementation of Zionism could be only at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs." Moshe Shertok (later Sharett) contemptuously dismissed the "illusive hopes" of those who spoke about a "'mutual misunderstanding' between us and the Arabs, about 'common interests' [and] about 'the possibility of unity and peace between the two fraternal peoples.'" "There is no example in history," David Ben-Gurion declared, succinctly framing the core problem, "that a nation opens the gates of its country, not because of necessity…but because the nation which wants to come in has explained its desire to it." (4)


"The tragedy of Zionism," Walter Laqueur wrote in his standard history, "was that it appeared on the international scene when there were no longer empty spaces on the world map." This is not quite right. Rather it was no longer politically tenable to create such spaces: extermination had ceased to be an option of conquest. (5) Basically the Zionist movement could only choose between two strategic options to achieve its goal: what Benny Morris has labeled "the way of South Africa" - "the establishment of an apartheid state, with a settler minority lording it over a large, exploited native majority" - or the "the way of transfer" - "you could create a homogenous Jewish state or at least a state with an overwhelming Jewish majority by moving or transferring all or most of the Arabs out." (6)

Round One - "The way of transfer"

In the first round of conquest, the Zionist movement set its sights on "the way of transfer." For all the public rhetoric about wanting to "live with the Arabs in conditions of unity and mutual honor and together with them to turn the common homeland into a flourishing land" (Twelfth Zionist Congress, 1921), the Zionists from early on were in fact bent on expelling them. "The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings," Tom Segev reports. "'Disappearing' the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence…. With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer - or its morality." The key was to get the timing right. Ben-Gurion, reflecting on the expulsion option in the late 1930s, wrote: "What is inconceivable in normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is possible in such great hours is not carried out - a whole world is lost." (7)

The goal of "disappearing" the indigenous Arab population points to a virtual truism buried beneath a mountain of apologetic Zionist literature: what spurred Palestinians' opposition to Zionism was not anti-Semitism in the sense of an irrational hatred of Jews but rather the prospect - very real - of their expulsion. "The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession," Morris reasonably concludes, "was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism." Likewise, in his magisterial study of Palestinian nationalism, Yehoshua Porath suggests that the "major factor nourishing" Arab anti-Semitism "was not hatred for the Jews as such but opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine." He goes on to argue that, although Arabs initially differentiated between Jews and Zionists, it was "inevitable" that opposition to Zionist settlement would turn into a loathing of all Jews: "As immigration increased, so did the Jewish community's identification with the Zionist movement…. The non-Zionist and anti-Zionist factors became an insignificant minority, and a large measure of sophistication was required to make the older distinction. It was unreasonable to hope that the wider Arab population, and the riotous mob which was part of it, would maintain this distinction." (8)

From its incipient stirrings in the late nineteenth century through the watershed revolt in the 1930s, Palestinian resistance consistently focused on the twin juggernauts of Zionist conquest: Jewish settlers and Jewish settlements. (9) Apologetic Zionist writers like Anita Shapira juxtapose benign Jewish settlement against recourse to force. (10) In fact, settlement was force. "From the outset, Zionism sought to employ force in order to realize national aspirations," Yosef Gorny observes. "This force consisted primarily of the collective ability to rebuild a national home in Palestine." Through settlement the Zionist movement aimed - in Ben-Gurion's words - "to establish a great Jewish fact in this country" that was irreversible. (emphasis in original) (11) Moreover, settlement and armed force were in reality seamlessly interwoven as Zionist settlers sought "the ideal and perfect fusion between the plow and rifle." Moshe Dayan later memorialized that "We are a generation of settlers, and without the combat helmet and the barrel of a gun, we will not be able to plant a tree or build a house." (12) The Zionist movement inferred behind Palestinian resistance to Jewish settlement a generic (and genetic) anti-Semitism - Jewish settlers "being murdered," as Ben-Gurion put it, "simply because they were Jews" - in order to conceal from the outside world and itself the rational and legitimate grievances of the indigenous population. (13) In the ensuing bloodshed the kith and kin of Zionist martyrs would, like relatives of Palestinian martyrs today, wax proud at these national sacrifices. "I am gratified," the father of a Jewish casualty eulogized, "that I was a living witness to such a historical event." (14)

It bears critical notice for what comes later that, from the interwar through early postwar years, Western public opinion was not altogether averse to population transfer as an expedient (albeit extreme) for resolving ethnic conflicts. French socialists and Europe's Jewish press supported in the mid-1930s the transfer of Jews to Madagascar to solve Poland's "Jewish problem." (15) The main forced transfer before World War II was effected between Turkey and Greece. Sanctioned by the Treaty of Lausanne (1923) and approved and supervised by the League of Nations, this brutal displacement of more than 1.5 million people eventually came to be seen by much of official Europe as an auspicious precedent. The British cited it in the late 1930s as a model for resolving the conflict in Palestine. The right-wing Zionist leader, Vladimir Jabotinsky, taking heart from Nazi demographic experiments in conquered territories (about 1.5 million Poles and Jews were expelled and hundreds of thousands of Germans resettled in their place), exclaimed: "The world has become accustomed to the idea of mass migrations and has almost become fond of them. Hitler - as odious as he is to us - has given this idea a good name in the world." During the war the Soviet Union also carried out bloody deportations of recalcitrant minorities such as the Volga Germans, Chechen-Ingush and Tatars. Labor Zionists pointed to the "positive experience" of the Greek-Turkish and Soviet expulsions in support of the transfer idea. Recalling the "success" (Churchill) of the Greek-Turkish compulsory transfer, the Allies at the Potsdam Conference (1945) authorized the expulsion of some 13 million Germans from Central and Eastern Europe (around 2 million perished in the course of this horrendous uprooting). Even the left-wing British Labor Party advocated in its 1944 platform that the "Arabs be encouraged to move out" of Palestine, as did the humanist philosopher Bertrand Russell, to make way for Zionist settlement. (16)

In fact many in the enlightened West came to view displacement of the indigenous population of Palestine as an inexorable concomitant of civilization's advance. The identification of Americans with Zionism came easily since the "social order of the Yishuv [Jewish community in Palestine] was built on the ethos of a frontier society, in which a pioneering-settlement model set the tone." To account for the "almost complete disregard of the Arab case" by Americans, a prominent British Labor MP, Richard Crossman, explained in the mid-1940s: "Zionism after all is merely the attempt by the European Jew to build his national life on the soil of Palestine in much the same way as the American settler developed the West. So the American will give the Jewish settler in Palestine the benefit of the doubt, and regard the Arab as the aboriginal who must go down before the march of progress." Contrasting the "slovenly" Arabs with enterprising Jewish settlers who had "set going revolutionary forces in the Middle East," Crossman himself professed in the name of "social progress" support for Zionism. The left-liberal U.S. presidential candidate in 1948, Henry Wallace, compared the Zionist struggle in Palestine with "the fight the American colonies carried on in 1776. Just as the British stirred up the Iroquois to fight the colonists, so today they are stirring up the Arabs." (17)

Come 1948, the Zionist movement exploited the "revolutionary times" of the first Arab-Israeli war - much like the Serbs did in Kosovo during the NATO attack - to expel more than 80 percent of the indigenous population (750,000 Palestinians), and thereby achieve its goal of an overwhelmingly Jewish state, if not yet in the whole of Palestine. (18) Berl Katznelson, known as the "conscience" of the Labor Zionist movement, had maintained that "there has never been a colonizing enterprise as typified by justice and honesty toward others as our work here in Eretz Israel." In his multivolume paean to the American settlers' dispossession of the native population, The Winning of the West, Theodore Roosevelt likewise concluded that "no other conquering nation has ever treated savage owners of the soil with such generosity as has the United States." The recipients of this benefaction would presumably have a different story to tell. (19)

Notes

1. See Norman G. Finkelstein, Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict (New York: 1995) pp. 7-12. (hereafter: I&R) The envisioned Jewish state would tolerate an Arab minority of no more than 15 percent (Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel (New York: 1987), p. 104).

2. For the crucial political repercussions on the Zionist movement of its reliance on Great Britain, see I&R, pp. 16-20.

3. See I&R, chapter 2.

4. Zeev Sternhell, The Founding Myths of Israel (Princeton: 1998), pp. 43-4. Benny Morris, Righteous Victims (New York: 1999), p. 91 (Shertok). Simha Flapan, Zionism and the Palestinians (London: 1979), p. 143 (Ben-Gurion). For further discussion and documentation, see I&R, pp. 98-110.

5. Walter Laqueur, A History of Zionism (New York: 1976), p. 597 (for discussion, see I&R, p. 198, note 13). Outright annexation of conquered territory had also ceased to be a political option - which crucially accounts for Great Britain's decision to issue the Balfour Declaration (see Isaiah Friedman, The Question of Palestine (New Brunswick, NJ: 1992), esp. pp. 175, 188-9, 288).

6. Benny Morris, "Revisiting the Palestinian exodus of 1948," in Eugene L. Rogan and Avi Shlaim (eds), The War for Palestine (Cambridge: 2001), pp. 39-40.

7. Yehoshua Porath, The Emergence of the Palestinian-Arab National Movement, 1918-1929 (Frank Cass: 1974), p. 147 (Congress). Tom Segev, One Palestine, Complete (New York: 2001), pp.404-5; cf. pp. 403, 406-7, 508. Morris, "Revisiting the Palestinian exodus," p. 42 (Ben-Gurion); for timing, see also Shabtei Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs (Oxford: 1985), p. 35. For further discussion and documentation of Zionist expulsion plans, see I&R, pp. 16, 103-4, and esp. Morris, Righteous Victims, pp. 139-44, 168-9.

8. Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 37. Porath, Emergence, pp. 59, 62.

9. Neville J. Mandel, The Arabs and Zionism (Berkeley: 1976), p. 40. Yehoshua Porath, The Palestinian National Movement: From Riots to Rebellion (London: 1970), pp. 91-2, 165-6, 297.

10. See I&R, chap. 4.

11. Yosef Gorny, Zionism and the Arabs, 1882-1948 (Oxford: 1987), p. 176; for detailed analysis of Gorny's study, see I&R, chap. 1. Teveth, Ben-Gurion, p. 155.

12. Uri Ben-Eliezer, The Making of Israeli Militarism (Bloomington: 1998), p. 89 ("fusion") (cf. p. 62). Martin Gilbert, Israel: A History (New York: 1998), p. 312 (Dayan). For discussion, see I&R, p. 106.

13. David Ben-Gurion, My Talks with Arab Leaders (New York: 1973), p. 3. (For Ben-Gurion's private recognition of the real motives behind Arab attacks, see I&R, pp. 108, 110.) Norman G. Finkelstein, The Holocaust Industry (New York: 2000), pp. 49-53, 62-3.

14. Segev, One Palestine, p. 182.

15. Saul Friedlander, Nazi Germany and the Jews, vol. I (New York: 1997), p. 219. On
related resettlement schemes, see Michael J. Cohen, Churchill and the Jews (London: 1985), pp. 236, 249-51, and Philippe Burrin, Hitler and the Jews (New York: 1989), pp. 59-61.

16. For population transfers from interwar through postwar period, see Joseph B. Schechtman, European Population Transfers, 1939-1945 (New York: 1946), and Postwar Population Transfers in Europe, 1945-1955 (Philadelphia: 1962), Alfred M. de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: 1977), Andrew Bell-Fialkoff, Ethnic Cleansing (New York: 1996), Norman M. Naimark, Fires of Hatred (Cambridge: 2001). Segev, One Palestine, pp. 406-7 (Jabotinsky) (see also Gorny, Zionism, pp. 270-1). See I&R, p. 103 for "positive experience." Nur Masalha, Expulsion of the Palestinians (Washington: 1992), pp. 157-61 (Labor Party). Bertrand Russell, "The Role of the Jewish State in Helping to Create a Better World" (1943), reprinted in Zionism (1981).

17. Sasson Sofer, Zionism and the Foundations of Israeli Diplomacy (Cambridge: 1998), p. 367 ("social order"). Richard Crossman, Palestine Mission (London: 1947), pp. 33, 152, 167. Kenneth Ray Bain, The March to Zion (London: 1979), p. 35 (Wallace) (cf. pp. 34-6 for Americans' identification of Zionist settlement with American West). For a detailed comparison between Zionist and American conquests, see I&R, pp. 89-98, and esp. Norman Finkelstein, The Rise and Fall of Palestine (Minn.: 1996), pp.104-21. (hereafter: R&F)

18. See I&R, chap. 3; for further evidence supporting the argument in this chapter, see Laila Parsons, "The Druze and the birth of Israel," in Rogan and Shlaim, War, chap. 3, and Ben-Eliezer, Making, pp. 170-81. For comparisons recently evoked by mainstream Israelis with the Serb expulsion, see Finkelstein, Holocaust, pp. 70-1.

19. Sternhell, Founding Myths, p. 173 (Katznelson; for Katznelson's effective support of forced transfer, see p. 176). Theodore Roosevelt, The Winning of the West (New York: 1889), vol. 4, p. 54.

www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php
posted by:
John
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  • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

    Thu, November 5, 2009 - 12:25 AM
    An excellent scholarly introduction to the conflict, which I will post in parts, though the full article can be found at the linked site.

    While I know one or two who may rush in their attempt to poison the well, all is fully sourced and it will be interesting to see who will refute facts with documented facts.

    (PS: Using lots of capitalization and saying MORESO doesn't count as documented sources.)
  • John:

    Your introduction excludes some very key facts.

    Whatever else you wish to say, Jews were peacefully moving into the region.

    And Muslims began murdering and ethnically cleansing these peaceful Jews.

    Not only that, racist Muslims set out murdering Jews who weren't even immigrants, but whose communities had lived in the region for centuries.

    One simply cannot excuse or justify the murder of immigrants, nor the racist murder of people who happen to be the same color/religion as those immigrants.
    • on behalf of the 'Educate the Adam project' :

      The goal of "disappearing" the indigenous Arab population points to a virtual truism buried beneath a mountain of apologetic Zionist literature: what spurred Palestinians' opposition to Zionism was not anti-Semitism in the sense of an irrational hatred of Jews but rather the prospect - very real - of their expulsion. "The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession," Morris reasonably concludes, "was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism." Likewise, in his magisterial study of Palestinian nationalism, Yehoshua Porath suggests that the "major factor nourishing" Arab anti-Semitism "was not hatred for the Jews as such but opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine." He goes on to argue that, although Arabs initially differentiated between Jews and Zionists, it was "inevitable" that opposition to Zionist settlement would turn into a loathing of all Jews: "As immigration increased, so did the Jewish community's identification with the Zionist movement…. The non-Zionist and anti-Zionist factors became an insignificant minority, and a large measure of sophistication was required to make the older distinction. It was unreasonable to hope that the wider Arab population, and the riotous mob which was part of it, would maintain this distinction." (8)

      8. Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 37. Porath, Emergence, pp. 59, 62.
      • John:
        > The goal of "disappearing" the indigenous Arab population points to a virtual truism buried beneath a mountain of apologetic Zionist literature: what spurred Palestinians' opposition to Zionism was not anti-Semitism in the sense of an irrational hatred of Jews but rather the prospect - very real - of their expulsion.

        Again.

        Muslims set out murdering both Jewish immigrants and Jews who had lived in the region for centuries based on a fear of what might happen.

        How can you possibly attempt to justify the murder and ethnic cleansing of Jews who had lived in the region for centuries?!?

        It's no different, and equally vile, to a group of white European Nationalists today murdering Muslims in Berlin or Denmark because they're afraid these Muslims might try to impose Shariah law on all.

        Somehow I can't imagine that you would defend white Europeans murdering Muslims, but you think the murder and ethnic cleansing of Jews is okay.
        • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

          Fri, November 6, 2009 - 10:24 PM
          Zionist historians, forensic scholars, the historical record vs. Some 'dude' at an internet cafe

          Hmmmm... nah sorry still not buying your fantasy Adam.
          • John:

            The facts are well-documented and clear. Your prejudice is the only thing standing in the way of you seeing the truth.

            Again.

            Muslims set out murdering both Jewish immigrants and Jews who had lived in the region for centuries based on a fear of what might happen.

            It's pitiful that you attempt to justify the murder and ethnic cleansing of Jews who had lived in the region for centuries.

            It's no different, and equally vile, to a group of white European Nationalists today murdering Muslims in Berlin or Denmark because they're afraid these Muslims might try to impose Shariah law on all. That too is a "legitimate" fear.

            Somehow I can't imagine that you would defend white Europeans murdering Muslims, but you think the murder and ethnic cleansing of Jews is okay.
            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

              Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:12 PM
              "It's no different, and equally vile, to a group of white European Nationalists today murdering Muslims in Berlin or Denmark because they're afraid these Muslims might try to impose Shariah law on all. That too is a "legitimate" fear."

              Actually, a better comparison would be if those Muslims were promoting the idea of establishing an Islamic only state, openly advocating the removal of the germans, and actively working to fulfill that goal.

              With the likelihood of this all coming about being very real
              • Somehow the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession which motivated the indigenous population escapes his understanding Dustin. It's as if a bunch of happy go lucky Jews were visiting a beach and just wanted to plunk their towel and umbrella down for the day with no other agenda.
                • <Somehow the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession which motivated the indigenous population escapes his understanding Dustin.>

                  What you two are missing is that no one should have a doubt that those that feel that they are getting dispossessed of their land will be unhappy about it.

                  Your and Dustin's point seems to be that this is a good excuse for slaughtering LEGAL residents of the region. There is no excuse for this kind of action, yet you both want to excuse it away. Odd. There's no excuse for it. No amount of fear or xenophobia makes this an expected or appropriate action.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    "Your and Dustin's point seems to be that this is a good excuse for slaughtering LEGAL residents of the region. There is no excuse for this kind of action, yet you both want to excuse it away. Odd. There's no excuse for it. No amount of fear or xenophobia makes this an expected or appropriate action."

                    Great, Andrew, the next time I'm in Seattle, I'll make sure to forcefully take everything you own and throw you in the street. I take it that you will stay authentic to your statements here and quietly move along as if nothing happened
                    • <Great, Andrew, the next time I'm in Seattle, I'll make sure to forcefully take everything you own and throw you in the street.>

                      I see. You're arguing that if you did this, then I could go to your home and gut your family, and you would then allow it as an understandable and even allowable response? Bullshit. Then, when I was done, you are suggesting that it'd be reasonable for me then to go to your neighbor's house who had NOTHING to do with it and kill HIS family, also? That would be understandable? You'd go to his home and rationalize for him why it's understandable that I did this? Bullshit.

                      <I take it that you will stay authentic to your statements here and quietly move along as if nothing happened>

                      If you did that, I'd not harm your family. It just would never happen. NOTHING could make me INTENTIONALLY harm innocent people. NOTHING. NOR will I rationalize it like YOU are doing.

                      <Actually it would involve unwarranted fears. The fears of the Palestinians though were clearly warranted and based on what was openly promoted by many Zionists, even Israels first prime minister>

                      So what? It does not excuse or rationalize ANY of these actions? That they were being shafted? Well. That sucks. But, to suggest as you seem to be doing that this explains/excuses/rationalizes why these attacks are anything other than simply cold-blooded attacks? Give me a fucking break.

                      I don't rationalize Israel pushing out ANY Pals pre or post '48. I don't. I COULD, very, very easily. The fear of the 'third column' is a very, very reasonable and rational fear. But, you don't see ME arguing this point, do you? No. Because it's wrong. Wrong is wrong.

                      One should not be in the habit of rationalizing such acts.
                      • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                        Sun, November 8, 2009 - 10:41 AM
                        "I see. You're arguing that if you did this, then I could go to your home and gut your family, and you would then allow it as an understandable and even allowable response? Bullshit."

                        No, I'm pointing out that your mantra of "just move along" doesn't play out in reality, especially when we are discussing a group of people that mainly rely on subsistence farming


                        "So what?"

                        It's the entire point of our little discussion here
                        • <No, I'm pointing out that your mantra of "just move along" doesn't play out in reality, especially when we are discussing a group of people that mainly rely on subsistence farming>

                          I don't give a fuck. There's NEVER a reason or excuse for intentional mass-murder. You are rationalizing it, I am 100% against it in EVERY situation.

                          <<"Jews work hard to purchase land and they're attacked and demonized. ">>

                          <Don't forget drive the natives from their land>

                          Your dishonesty up close an personal. He said "Jews work hard to purchase land and they're attacked and demonized.", referring to the LEGAL purchase of land, BEFORE anyone was driven from any land. You're a liar.

                          <Have you spoken out against these murders? Do you think it's okay for Muslims to murder and ethnically cleanse Jews based on a _fear_ of what other groups of Jews might do?>

                          Obviously he does.

                          <<"Muslims murder and ethnically cleanse people; their actions are defended. ">>

                          <Again, no one is defending them. People are only offering you the rational that surrounded these events. If anyone is trying to defend or vilify anything, it is you.>

                          No, not "rational", but 'rationalization'. There's an important distinction that I am sure that you're not missing.

                          Want my "rational" for Israel attacking Gaza? Or, do you want a 'rationalization'? Which one is good for you? Do YOU see how there could be a difference?

                          <<"Have you spoken out against these murders? Do you think it's okay for Muslims to murder and ethnically cleanse Jews based on a _fear_ of what other groups of Jews might do?">>

                          <Oh please, you are the one who constantly tries to dismiss and ignore the fact that the Zionist were actively trying to drive these people off their land. So again, if anyone is trying to excuse anything, it is you>

                          Notice how he does not answer the question. He can't get himself to directly answer the question.
                          • "I don't give a fuck. There's NEVER a reason or excuse for intentional mass-murder. You are rationalizing it, I am 100% against it in EVERY situation."

                            Again, many feel the same way about adopting colonialist attitudes and driving the natives off their land


                            "Your dishonesty up close an personal. He said "Jews work hard to purchase land and they're attacked and demonized.", referring to the LEGAL purchase of land, BEFORE anyone was driven from any land. You're a liar."

                            First, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, this property was being bought from colonialist powers. Second, prior to the second Aliyah, things were relatively peaceful. From my understanding the resentment started to brew when the labor Zionists started pushing an ideology that openly advocated creating a Jewish dominate state. Which meant the Palestinians had to go.




                            "Obviously he does"

                            I swear, you and Adam behave like children. As soon as people refuse to play your little rhetorical games the charges of antisemitism get tossed about and you two stomp your feet and have little tantrums. It's pathetic to watch and predictable

                            • <Again, many feel the same way about adopting colonialist attitudes and driving the natives off their land>

                              Nice deflection of the point. You rationalize mass-murder while I decry it. Par for the course.

                              <<"Your dishonesty up close an personal. He said "Jews work hard to purchase land and they're attacked and demonized.", referring to the LEGAL purchase of land, BEFORE anyone was driven from any land. You're a liar.">>

                              <First, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, this property was being bought from colonialist powers.>

                              HA! I love that excuse. When else in the history of the world has this argument been used? You guys sure are good at finding your rationals for demonizing Israel. I mean, Jews BUYING LAND from the owners. That land was ALWAYS colonized!? What, no land should EVER have been sold? Like, in the last thousand years? During that time, you know, Pals were buying land ALSO from these "colonialist powers", but you have no problem with that? Or, do you?

                              <Second, prior to the second Aliyah, things were relatively peaceful.>

                              Let's see...that the worst pogroms had not yet happened, that means something to you? Really? Well, there were only a few, right? And then, more immigration - the xenophobia turns violent. And, that's 'understandable' to you? Really? Well, not me, that's for sure.

                              <From my understanding the resentment started to brew when the labor Zionists started pushing an ideology that openly advocated creating a Jewish dominate state. Which meant the Palestinians had to go.>

                              You're now creating history. You don't know why they did it, there's your rationalization. There's lots of 'resentment' in the world. Would it be OK with you if in every similar situation, massacres happened? Are you also rationalizing massacres of Chinese in Tibet? Would you say the same thing? Should I mention EVERY situation like this in the last 100 years and watch you rationalize every one of them?

                              <<"Obviously he does">>

                              <I swear, you and Adam behave like children.>

                              And you think like a child, so - you must 'get' us.

                              <As soon as people refuse to play your little rhetorical games the charges of antisemitism get tossed about and you two stomp your feet and have little tantrums.>

                              Good leading point. You say this, and thus it's true. Sadly for you, I've not thrown any "tantrums", and you can't cite any. But, if you post such a thing enough times, you and the Parrotposse will surely all agree to this fabrication.

                              Oh. If you would, find for me who I have charged with antisemitism BESIDES t2 and Sami in the last...oh, year. Please do. I mean, you made that charge, so you can of course support it, right? Or, man up* and apologize for this statement.

                              *When I said "man up", that obviously war rhetorical.
                              • "Nice deflection of the point. You rationalize mass-murder while I decry it. Par for the course."

                                nope, I spoke directly to your point


                                "HA! I love that excuse. When else in the history of the world has this argument been used? You guys sure are good at finding your rationals for demonizing Israel. I mean, Jews BUYING LAND from the owners. That land was ALWAYS colonized!? What, no land should EVER have been sold? Like, in the last thousand years? During that time, you know, Pals were buying land ALSO from these "colonialist powers", but you have no problem with that? Or, do you?"

                                Apparently someone set the toaster to race bait


                                "Let's see...that the worst pogroms had not yet happened, that means something to you? Really? Well, there were only a few, right? And then, more immigration - the xenophobia turns violent. And, that's 'understandable' to you? Really? Well, not me, that's for sure."

                                What events were you thinking of that were directly perpetrated by the Palestinians?


                                "You're now creating history. You don't know why they did it, there's your rationalization. There's lots of 'resentment' in the world. Would it be OK with you if in every similar situation, massacres happened? Are you also rationalizing massacres of Chinese in Tibet? Would you say the same thing? Should I mention EVERY situation like this in the last 100 years and watch you rationalize every one of them?"

                                Nope, this is all very well documented and of course you are simply ignorant and your respond with a childish tantrum

                                • <Apparently someone set the toaster to race bait>

                                  Adhom instead of answer the question. Typical.

                                  If you say that no one should have been able to purchase land... Who ruled the land before the Ottomans, Dustin? And before the them, who then colonized it? There was ALWAYS someone colonizing this land, from...well...for the last 1K years? So, you're saying that NO ONE should have been able to sell or purchase land? So, when Israel purchased land from people LIVING THERE, that was ALSO not legal in your mind?

                                  Or, as you saying that land purchased from absentee Turkish owners is not legitimate, but from locals was? You know, just to clarify...

                                  <What events were you thinking of that were directly perpetrated by the Palestinians?>

                                  You're kidding, right?

                                  <Nope, this is all very well documented and of course you are simply ignorant and your respond with a childish tantrum>

                                  There we go again with the "tantrum" parrotspeak. Fuck it. I'm done with you.
                                  • "If you say that no one should have been able to purchase land... Who ruled the land before the Ottomans, Dustin? And before the them, who then colonized it? There was ALWAYS someone colonizing this land, from...well...for the last 1K years? So, you're saying that NO ONE should have been able to sell or purchase land? So, when Israel purchased land from people LIVING THERE, that was ALSO not legal in your mind?"

                                    Look, Andrew, if you lack the capacity to understand how colonialism was unjust, and how selling off a peoples homeland, without their consent, is wrong, then there is really nothing I can explain to you


                                    "You're kidding, right? "

                                    No, and since I never claimed to have encyclopedic knowledge of the ME, I am unsure how this would surprise you


                                    "There we go again with the "tantrum" parrotspeak. Fuck it. I'm done with you. "

                                    See, another tantrum.
            • .
              .
              offline 39
              Adam, you're wrong - for the hundredth time - IT WAS HAPPENING.

              The indigenous Jews who got caught up in the middle were innocent victims, sure, no doubt, but your application of modern day sensibilities to the past is ridiculous. People were not as nuanced and sensitive then as they are now. If you were like the people who were vocally trying to run you off your land, and you lived with them, and you didnt make it a point to distance yourself from them, you got caught up.

              I provided you with a number of quotes proving the intent of early Zionists to engage in a clandestine operation to replace the indigneous Arab with Jews.

              You seem to think this is ok. You also dont seem to realize that violence to protect land is a time honored and accepted human right - a Natural RIght in fact, according to Locke.
              • .
                > your application of modern day sensibilities to the past is ridiculous.

                Ironically, you seem to wish to grant immense allowances regarding Muslim behavior by saying that we can't use "modern day sensibilities".

                But then, why don't we just excuse all Jewish mistakes crimes for the same reason?

                > The indigenous Jews who got caught up in the middle were innocent victims, sure, no doubt

                Well, unquestionably so.

                But the corollary of that, is that the Muslims, those who murdered these totally innocent Jews, were xenophobic murdering criminals. No doubt of that either.
                • .
                  .
                  offline 39
                  <why don't we just excuse all Jewish mistakes crimes for the same reason? >

                  Where have you ever seen me attacking Zionists for their pre WWI actions? Or even up until the 1940s?

                  <But the corollary of that, is that the Muslims, those who murdered these totally innocent Jews, were xenophobic murdering criminals. No doubt of that either.>

                  No, that's not the corollary actually, at all. This has nothing to do with Xenophobia, but, as numerous scholars far more qualified than you have said, but territorial displacement. You really dont seem to get that.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    .
                    > No, that's not the corollary actually, at all. This has nothing to do with Xenophobia...

                    Bullshit.

                    When a group of murdering people who are different from them because of a fear that these people might take their land, or their jobs, of whatnot, it's clearly xenophobic.

                    If white Texans started murdering Hispanic Americans for fear that Mexicans would take their jobs, would you claim that's not xenophobia either?

                    Of course it is.

                    Xenophobic Muslims murdered and ethnically cleansed native Jews and Jewish immigrants. That's just a fact.
                    • "When a group of murdering people who are different from them because of a fear that these people might take their land, or their jobs, of whatnot, it's clearly xenophobic. "

                      Actually it would involve unwarranted fears. The fears of the Palestinians though were clearly warranted and based on what was openly promoted by many Zionists, even Israels first prime minister
                      • Dustin:

                        However you wish to define it, it is simply inexcusable.

                        These hateful, terrible, Islamic murders set out killing and ethnically cleansing Jews (not only immigrants).

                        There is no excuse.
                        • "These hateful, terrible, Islamic murders set out killing and ethnically cleansing Jews (not only immigrants). "

                          I'm sure some feel the same way about adopting colonialist attitudes and openly working to drive the natives from their land.
                          • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                            Sun, November 8, 2009 - 10:41 AM
                            Dustin:
                            >> "These hateful, terrible, Islamic murders set out killing and ethnically cleansing Jews (not only immigrants). "
                            > I'm sure some feel the same way about adopting colonialist attitudes and openly working to drive the natives from their land.

                            Muslims murder and ethnically cleanse people; their actions are defended.

                            Jews work hard to purchase land and they're attacked and demonized.

                            That's about right, isn't it?
                            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                              Sun, November 8, 2009 - 10:43 AM
                              "Muslims murder and ethnically cleanse people; their actions are defended. "

                              People are explaining how your view is narrow minded and self serving.


                              "Jews work hard to purchase land and they're attacked and demonized. "

                              Don't forget drive the natives from their land


                              "That's about right, isn't it? "

                              Nope
                              • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                Sun, November 8, 2009 - 11:33 AM
                                Dustin:
                                >> "Muslims murder and ethnically cleanse people; their actions are defended. "
                                > People are explaining how your view is narrow minded and self serving.

                                I'll have to remember that line.

                                The next time someone condemns the "Nakba", I'll just tell them that their view is "narrow minded and self serving."

                                But my point remains the same.

                                Muslims murder and ethnically cleanse people; their actions are defended.

                                Have you spoken out against these murders? Do you think it's okay for Muslims to murder and ethnically cleanse Jews based on a _fear_ of what other groups of Jews might do?
                                • "I'll have to remember that line.

                                  The next time someone condemns the "Nakba", I'll just tell them that their view is "narrow minded and self serving."

                                  Adam, you're the one who continuously tries to characterize events as muslims trying to kill jews, simply to kill jews


                                  "Muslims murder and ethnically cleanse people; their actions are defended. "

                                  Again, no one is defending them. People are only offering you the rational that surrounded these events. If anyone is trying to defend or vilify anything, it is you.


                                  "Have you spoken out against these murders? Do you think it's okay for Muslims to murder and ethnically cleanse Jews based on a _fear_ of what other groups of Jews might do?"

                                  Oh please, you are the one who constantly tries to dismiss and ignore the fact that the Zionist were actively trying to drive these people off their land. So again, if anyone is trying to excuse anything, it is you
                        • .
                          .
                          offline 39
                          It has nothing to do with how anyone wishes to define it.

                          You are falsely applying causality.

                          It is not hateful or terrible to defend your homeland. Its is a natural right, and one that western ethics, law, and philosophy are founded upon. Your bias is just unfathomable.
                    • <<<If white Texans started murdering Hispanic Americans for fear that Mexicans would take their jobs, would you claim that's not xenophobia either? >>>

                      If the Zionist goal was simply to secure jobs and live as a small minority in an Arab republic, this would be a useful analogy.

                      Otherwise, not so much.
                      • John:

                        It's nice that you ignore the question completely, yet again.

                        Why is it that you spew hate towards Israel almost non-stop but are unable to actually answer any questions?

                        The Hispanics aren't a "small" minority. There are 47 millions of them in American, and I'm not sure if that includes the illegal immigrants.

                        So, try to answer this question. It's a simple yes or no question.

                        If white Texans started murdering Hispanic Americans for fear that Mexicans would take their jobs, would you claim that's not xenophobia either?
                        • .
                          .
                          offline 39
                          ADAM. ITS NOT A FEAR OF TAKING JOBS.

                          GET THIS THROUGH YOUR SKULL.

                          You either need to spend a few days learning about analogical reasoning, or stop using these utterly flawed analogies. You are NOT being rational, reasonable, or analogical in any sense of those words.

                          Texans are not living under a colonial occupation. Texas' government is LEGITIMATE. If the people of Texas decided that ILLEGAL immigrants posed a serious threat to their land and livelihood, under CURRENT statues, they would be 100% ethically and legally justified in rounding up and using lethal force when deemed necessary (or the illegals were on their vast swaths of border ranch land). And it would have NOTHING to do with Xenophobia.

                          If actual Mexican Americans who were totally innocent and just guilty of being brown and living in the same neighborhoods got mixed up in all of this, then that would be criminal, sure, BUT IT WOULD NOT BE XENOPHOBIA.
                          • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                            Mon, November 9, 2009 - 10:34 AM
                            .
                            > If the people of Texas decided that ILLEGAL immigrants posed a serious threat to their land and livelihood, under CURRENT statues, they would be 100% ethically and legally justified in rounding up and using lethal force when deemed necessary (or the illegals were on their vast swaths of border ranch land). And it would have NOTHING to do with Xenophobia.

                            Yes. But the problem in Palestine is that the Muslims did _not_ solely started killing and ethnically cleansing immigrants. They set out attacking whatever Jews they could find.

                            So, tell me. If the people of Texas decided that ILLEGAL immigrants posed a serious threat and then started murdering hispanic-americans who are not-immigrants would you still claim that these attacks are not xenophobic??

                            I guess not. So the Muslims were just hateful, criminal, and anti-semitic.
                            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                              Mon, November 9, 2009 - 12:11 PM
                              Yehoshua Porath suggests that the "major factor nourishing" Arab anti-Semitism "was not hatred for the Jews as such but opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine." He goes on to argue that, although Arabs initially differentiated between Jews and Zionists, it was "inevitable" that opposition to Zionist settlement would turn into a loathing of all Jews: "As immigration increased, so did the Jewish community's identification with the Zionist movement…. The non-Zionist and anti-Zionist factors became an insignificant minority, and a large measure of sophistication was required to make the older distinction. It was unreasonable to hope that the wider Arab population, and the riotous mob which was part of it, would maintain this distinction." (8)

                              8. Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 37. Porath, Emergence, pp. 59, 62.
                              • John:
                                > it was "inevitable" that opposition to Zionist settlement would turn into a loathing of all Jews:

                                That's right.

                                Arabs didn't mind Jews much, while they were an oppressed, subjugated group.

                                But the Palestinian nationalistic movement turned to a "loathing of all Jews" and xenophobic murder.

                                It's been that way ever since.

                                And, by your own admission, Israel is the shining light of freedom and democracy in the region today.
                                • .
                                  .
                                  offline 39
                                  Palestinian Jews were no more oppressed or segregated than Palestinian Christians, who all participated very willingly in violence against Zionists.
                                  • .
                                    > Palestinian Jews were no more oppressed or segregated than Palestinian Christians, who all participated very willingly in violence against Zionists.

                                    Yeah, uhm, want to give me a timeline here? When did that happen?

                                    Because the conflict clearly started when a group of Muslims set out murdering innocent Jews.
                                    • .
                                      .
                                      offline 39

                                      Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                      Mon, November 9, 2009 - 10:33 PM
                                      Are you questioning my use of the word all? Of course I didnt mean every single Palestinian Christian.

                                      The conflict started very clearly when a bunch of European Zionists set out to take land away from indigenous Arabs, regardless of their religion.
                                      • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                        Mon, November 9, 2009 - 10:56 PM
                                        .
                                        >The conflict started very clearly when a bunch of European Zionists set out to take land away from indigenous Arabs, regardless of their religion.

                                        _A minority_ of Zionists did plan that. But Zionists were simply moving peacefully into the region.

                                        As for the Christians, I'm wondering exactly when they got involved.

                                        Because the violence in Palestine began with Muslims shouting "Muhammed's religion was born of the sword", before murdering Jews.

                                        So when _exactly_ did Christians start getting involved in this violence?
                                        • .
                                          .
                                          offline 39

                                          Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                          Mon, November 9, 2009 - 11:09 PM
                                          Off the top of my head I can pull down the 1946 "Survey of Palestine for the Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry. Vol. 2." that specifically identifies Muslim and Christian Arabs involved in violence during the al Jaffa riots in 1921. Feel free to find it somewhere and check page 18 and 19.

                                          I am definitely aware of Christians being involved prior to this as well, but I don't have the time or inclination to research this for you.

                                          "_A minority_ of Zionists did plan that. But Zionists were simply moving peacefully into the region. "

                                          Oh yes, a minority of Americans planned on taking land from the Amerindian, most of the settlers were just moving in peacefully with their families.
                                          • .
                                            .
                                            offline 39

                                            Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                            Tue, November 10, 2009 - 7:36 AM
                                            of course adam runs away from this bit of evidence.

                                            Its also funny how he finally conceded it wasnt xenophobia, but didnt really apologize for being obstinately wrong for so god damned long.
                                            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                              Tue, November 10, 2009 - 9:24 AM
                                              <<<Its also funny how he finally conceded it wasnt xenophobia, but didnt really apologize for being obstinately wrong for so god damned long.>>>

                                              Figures, he dedicated a whole thread to implying that I said all Zionists were evil. When he was corrected on that fact he never would explain why he made the accusation in the first place, despite being questioned about it by myself and others. Some people have little backbone.
                                            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                              Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:50 AM
                                              .
                                              > Its also funny how he finally conceded it wasnt xenophobia

                                              Nothing of the sort. I just don't think it's worth arguing over the use of one term.

                                              You don't like the term. I'll pick something else.

                                              In 1920, a group of intolerant, hateful, criminal, and anti-semitic Muslims began murdering and ethnically cleansing Jews. They attacked not only immigrants, but also communities of Jews who had lived in the region for centuries.
                                              • .
                                                .
                                                offline 39

                                                Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                Tue, November 10, 2009 - 4:57 PM
                                                <Nothing of the sort. I just don't think it's worth arguing over the use of one term.>

                                                Really?


                                                <If the people of Texas decided that ILLEGAL immigrants posed a serious threat and then started murdering hispanic-americans who are not-immigrants would you still claim that these attacks are not xenophobic??

                                                I guess not. So the Muslims were just hateful, criminal, and anti-semitic. >


                                                I wonder what 'I guess not means then'

                                                Its not xenophobia. Its phobia of dispossession. BIG FREAKING DIFFERENCE
                                              • .
                                                .
                                                offline 39

                                                Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                Tue, November 10, 2009 - 5:02 PM
                                                <In 1920, a group of intolerant, hateful, criminal, and anti-semitic Muslims began murdering and ethnically cleansing Jews. They attacked not only immigrants, but also communities of Jews who had lived in the region for centuries.>

                                                I just proved to you that these early anti Semitic attacks included xtians, and you once again ignore the information.

                                                Why, Adam? You used to be fairly rational.
                                                • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                  Tue, November 10, 2009 - 6:36 PM
                                                  .
                                                  > Its not xenophobia. Its phobia of dispossession. BIG FREAKING DIFFERENCE

                                                  Yeah, well. They crossed a line by also murdering Jews who were not immigrants.

                                                  And their fear wasn't simply one of dispossession. It was a fear of dispossession by a people who were "different".

                                                  > I just proved to you that these early anti Semitic attacks included xtians, and you once again ignore the information.

                                                  Well. Actually you said that Christians were involved in the pogroms a year later. How about this then?

                                                  In 1920s, a group of intolerant, hateful, criminal, and anti-semitic Muslims and Christians began murdering and ethnically cleansing Jews.

                                                  They attacked not only immigrants, but also communities of Jews who had lived in the region for centuries
                                                  • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                    Tue, November 10, 2009 - 7:01 PM
                                                    "The editors of the papers most emphatically opposed to Zionism were Greek Orthodox. the papers were al- Karmil, created in 1908, and, signifacantly, Filastine, founded in 1911...

                                                    The fact that most Palestinian Muslims remained loyal to Ottoman authority did not prevent them from agreeing with those Palestinian Christians who lead the public opposition to Zionist immigration..."

                                                    Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict page 45


                                                    "And their fear wasn't simply one of dispossession. It was a fear of dispossession by a people who were "different"."

                                                    this doesn't even make sense. The only reason the Zionists wanted to disposes these people of their livelihood was because they were different
                                                    • .
                                                      .
                                                      offline 39

                                                      Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                      Tue, November 10, 2009 - 9:53 PM
                                                      Yes, and howabout we discuss the fact that the most virulent anti-semitism is all of history has always been that perpetrated by Christians?


                                                      Adam, what you dont seem to understand is that one cannot simply be xenophobic against a particular creed. Xenophobia is fear of the foreigner, the other, not one specific type of person.
                                                      • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                        Tue, November 10, 2009 - 10:34 PM
                                                        .
                                                        . Yes, and howabout we discuss the fact that the most virulent anti-semitism is all of history has always been that perpetrated by Christians?

                                                        "has always been"? That's a bit of an exaggeration. There have been moments in Islamic history where they were every bit as wretched to Jews as Christians ever were.

                                                        But the big difference is that the Christian world has mostly moved beyond that, while the Muslim world still wallows in it.

                                                        Groups like Hamas are still preaching the same anti-semitic hate that Muslims were preaching 80 years ago. Jews (and other minorities) are still suffering under horrible Islamic discrimination and oppression throughout the entire Islamic world today, with a few exceptions.
                                                        • .
                                                          .
                                                          offline 39

                                                          Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                          Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:54 AM
                                                          <There have been moments in Islamic history where they were every bit as wretched to Jews as Christians ever were. >

                                                          No. Wrong. Absolutely false.

                                                          The freaking holocaust was perpetrated by a christian. You're beyond the pale here, Adam. You're clearly anti-Islamic and borderline racist with your ongoing demonization of Islam and Arabs.

                                                          "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - Adolf Hitler
                                                          • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                            Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:25 AM
                                                            .
                                                            > You're beyond the pale here, Adam. You're clearly anti-Islamic and borderline racist with your ongoing demonization of Islam and Arabs

                                                            You're calling me an Islamophobe for saying at times the Muslims were as bad as the Christians? Come on. Be serious.

                                                            > The freaking holocaust was perpetrated by a christian.

                                                            "An account by Solomon Cohen dated January 1148 AD describes the Almohad conquests:

                                                            "Abd al-Mumin ... the leader of the Almohads after the death of Muhammad Ibn Tumart the Mahdi ... captured Tlemcen [in the Maghreb] and killed all those who were in it, including the Jews, except those who embraced Islam. ... [In Sijilmasa] One hundred and fifty persons were killed for clinging to their [Jewish] faith. ... One hundred thousand persons were killed in Fez on that occasion, and 120,000 in Marrakesh. The Jews in all [Maghreb] localities [conquered] ... groaned under the heavy yoke of the Almohads; many had been killed, many others converted; none were able to appear in public as Jews."

                                                            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist...in_Morocco

                                                            And, unlike Nazi Germany's failed attempt, Saudi Arabia is disgustingly 100% Judenrein.
                                                    • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                      Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:35 PM
                                                      <<<"And their fear wasn't simply one of dispossession. It was a fear of dispossession by a people who were "different"."

                                                      this doesn't even make sense. The only reason the Zionists wanted to disposes these people of their livelihood was because they were different>>>

                                                      Oh the irony.

                                                      While it's plain that the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession motivated the Arabs (and it would have been the same if Arabs from another country came to dispossess them, so drop the laughable 'because they were different' canard Adam) one DOES however wonder how much racism was the Zionists motivation as they sought to create a Jewish majority state at the expense of the indigenous Arab population.
                                                      • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                        Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:47 PM
                                                        John:
                                                        > While it's plain that the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession motivated the Arabs...

                                                        Obvious?

                                                        And when they're shouting "Islam was born of the sword" or writing that "the Prophet said to kill the Jews" then that's _obviously_ a fear of territorial displacement, eh?

                                                        Why do you ignore all of the facts?

                                                        I think that you actually have it completely backwards. For 1400 years, it has been the Muslims who have been perpetrating oppression and territorial displacement. That's still ongoing btw. And their fear was really, that they would no longer be able to freely abuse and harass minorities.

                                                        Tell me. Did the Muslims _ever_ offer to settle this by offering to treat the Jews as full and total equals? Or did they simply decide to start murdering Jews?
                                                        • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                          Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:50 PM
                                                          "And when they're shouting "Islam was born of the sword" or writing that "the Prophet said to kill the Jews" then that's _obviously_ a fear of territorial displacement, eh? "

                                                          Did you even read my post?


                                                          "I think that you actually have it completely backwards. For 1400 years, it has been the Muslims who have been perpetrating oppression and territorial displacement. That's still ongoing btw. And their fear was really, that they would no longer be able to freely abuse and harass minorities."

                                                          And the cycle begins anew....
                                                        • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                          Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:26 AM
                                                          <Tell me. Did the Muslims _ever_ offer to settle this by offering to treat the Jews as full and total equals? Or did they simply decide to start murdering Jews?>

                                                          Moreso - why did they fight off the Jews but not the Ottomans or whomever was before the Ottomans? Why did they start that THIS point? What was it about THIS group of mostly Europeans that made them finally get off their asses?

                                                          <the goal of the European Jews to dispossess them and move them from their territory to create a Jewish majority state.>

                                                          A) One cannot truly suggest that they reacted in the early 1900's to a fear of dispossession. There was no dispossession at that point. The Jews were LEGALLY purchasing land, not tossing anyone out of their land.
                                                          B) While the aim of these relatively SMALL amount of Jews was to create what would later become Israel, there was really no hope at that point that this would happen. There were a few hundred thousand Jews at this point there AT MOST. This was not any kind of real or reasonable fear at that point for sure. I mean, IF the Ottomans took over and pushed people around (as they did), then why did the Pals not get up in literal arms at that point? Why do it against those Jews who were LEGALLY purchasing land?

                                                          <While the goal of the Ottomans was to install a governor and incorporate them into the Ottoman empire, but dispossessing no one.>

                                                          What a bunch of bullshit. They took all the land, all the GOOD land and made the 'owners' sharecroppers. What are you talking about!? At the point of the first massacres, the Jews were BUYING land, NOT just taking it as the Ottomans did.

                                                          <Hence the differing reaction by the indigenous Arabs.>

                                                          Hence the rationalization by those that want to always create the worst possible image of Jews.

                                                          The Jews of the early 1900's were not a fear at that point, and without WWII, there'd never have been an Israel. They had no real fear at that point. They reacted to the EUROPEANS, not just someone else dispossessing them of their property.

                                                          That's xenophobia.

                                                          • .
                                                            .
                                                            offline 39

                                                            Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                            Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:58 AM
                                                            <Moreso - why did they fight off the Jews but not the Ottomans or whomever was before the Ottomans? Why did they start that THIS point? What was it about THIS group of mostly Europeans that made them finally get off their asses? >

                                                            Once again Andrew completely exposes his utter ignorance of history.

                                                            Yes Andrew, the Arabs just rolled over and let the Romans and the Ottomans take over their lands, they never resisted, nope, never.

                                                            <One cannot truly suggest that they reacted in the early 1900's to a fear of dispossession. There was no dispossession at that point. The Jews were LEGALLY purchasing land, not tossing anyone out of their land. >

                                                            Except that time and time again we have shown that renowned Zionist historians suggest, nay, DECLARE that in fact this was the case. This constant reference to LEGALLY purchasing land has been shown to be utterly without merit. Not only were Jewes bypassing Ottoman law in their settlement schemes, COLONIAL LAWS ARE NOT LEGITIMATE.
                                                            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                              Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:33 AM
                                                              "Yes Andrew, the Arabs just rolled over and let the Romans and the Ottomans take over their lands, they never resisted, nope, never. "

                                                              Correct me if I am wrong Salil, but didn't things eventually normalize? Something that isn't possible when you are being uprooted as a people
                                                              • .
                                                                .
                                                                offline 39

                                                                Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                                Wed, November 11, 2009 - 2:56 AM
                                                                One could argue that under the Ottomans things 'normalized' over the course of 300 years, sure. But that included several conflicts, and plenty of Palestinian resistance to Ottoman abuses and attempts to reform OE systems. The key here was that the Ottomans incorporated Arabs into their government, absorbing Arab elites into the ruling structure.


                                                          • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                            Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:35 AM
                                                            "The Jews of the early 1900's were not a fear at that point, and without WWII, there'd never have been an Israel. They had no real fear at that point. They reacted to the EUROPEANS, not just someone else dispossessing them of their property. "

                                                            From my understanding, the idea of establishing a Jewish state has been advocated since the 1850's, and that resistance to the idea didn't become violent until the arrival of the labor zionists who tended to be a group of radical revolutionaries and extremely opposed to the idea of using Arab labor
                                                            • .
                                                              .
                                                              offline 39

                                                              Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                              Wed, November 11, 2009 - 2:58 AM
                                                              <resistance to the idea didn't become violent until the arrival of the labor zionists who tended to be a group of radical revolutionaries and extremely opposed to the idea of using Arab labor>

                                                              This is absolutely correct. yup. It wasnt until the second aliyah that we see organized Palestinian violence, to which Jews *did* respond (although they like to pretend they didnt respond until the 30's and 40's)
                                                            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                              Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:17 AM
                                                              Dustin:
                                                              > From my understanding, the idea of establishing a Jewish state has been advocated since the 1850's, and that resistance to the idea didn't become violent until the arrival of the labor zionists who tended to be a group of radical revolutionaries and extremely opposed to the idea of using Arab labor

                                                              It really depends on how you define "radical revolutionary". That's an extremely loaded term.

                                                              They could also be described as socialist, agrarians.

                                                              They were setting up successful Kibbutzim. living in peace, and Muslims (and perhaps some Christians too) began murdering Jews.
                                                              • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                                Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:01 PM
                                                                "It really depends on how you define "radical revolutionary". That's an extremely loaded term.

                                                                They could also be described as socialist, agrarians.

                                                                They were setting up successful Kibbutzim. living in peace, and Muslims (and perhaps some Christians too) began murdering Jews. "

                                                                Adam, I'm sorry the facts hurt your feelings, but this tribe wasn't developed to coddle your feelings
                                                              • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                                Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:38 PM
                                                                <They were setting up successful Kibbutzim. living in peace, and Muslims (and perhaps some Christians too) began murdering Jews.>

                                                                That's the part that they do not 'get'. Yes, SOME Jews at that time may have been espousing this issue with creating Israel, but I still do not see this as a reason, ANY kind of understandable reason to start killing innocent people. Some find that 'understandable', while I do not. Never will.

                                                                <If a group of American Muslims advocate setting up a Shariah state within the USA, and Christians start murdering Muslims across America I'm going to use the term 'Xenophobia'.>

                                                                When you look up the word, across the board it states that this would be classified as 'xenophobia'. It's quite clear, one can be xenophobic against a specific group:

                                                                ::an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.
                                                                dictionary.reference.com/brows...phobia

                                                                ::a fear of foreigners or strangers
                                                                wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

                                                                ::a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself.
                                                                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

                                                                Nowhere have I seen any definition stating anything otherwise.

                                                                What happened there was xenophobia. If anyone can find a cite that PROVES that this is not right, then please cite it. Copy/pasts it. Link it. So far, no one has done that.

                                                                <You're calling me an Islamophobe for saying at times the Muslims were as bad as the Christians? Come on. Be serious.>

                                                                They're just poisoning the well. Don't let it bug you.

                                                                <And, unlike Nazi Germany's failed attempt, Saudi Arabia is disgustingly 100% Judenrein.>

                                                                There are 30 Jews left in Yemen...

                                                                <Or do they speak of a desire to maintain Islamic supremacy?>

                                                                I personally do not buy that point for the mass-murder back in the early 1900's. I do not think that this was their issue there - I believe that the issue was European Jews, and it's not like these people particularly liked Jews, and someone riled them up and their xenophobia made it really easy to get them going. This has happened all over the world, why not there, too?




                                                  • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                    Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:44 PM
                                                    <<> Its not xenophobia. Its phobia of dispossession. BIG FREAKING DIFFERENCE>>

                                                    <Yeah, well. They crossed a line by also murdering Jews who were not immigrants.>

                                                    The point that I do not understand for those that refuse to admit that there was some xenophobia going on is that it's not like there was a love-fest going on before these mass-murders. And, to suggest that it was just this "phobia of dispossession"? That's creating a reality instead of looking into the real reasoning. I don't buy that this mythical fear of being dispossessed drove them instead of a fear of the JEWS moving in. If it was someone else instead of Jews, that'd be the same thing - it's xenophobia that caused them to act out, this xenophobia based on ONE GROUP, "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange." I mean, how is this not BOTH, they had this "phobia of dispossession" and it was based upon xenophobia? I don't get how someone can insist that there was no xenophobia going on. I mean, by the very DEFINITION, it's xenophobia: "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

                                                    <And their fear wasn't simply one of dispossession. It was a fear of dispossession by a people who were "different".>

                                                    Exactly. The Ottomans took over. What was their response? Who was before the Ottomans? Who was before those that were before the Ottomans and before them, then? They reacted differently to the European Jews than they did to the Turks. That's xenophobia, not just a fear of dispossession.

                                                    • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                      Tue, November 10, 2009 - 11:58 PM
                                                      "I don't get how someone can insist that there was no xenophobia going on. I mean, by the very DEFINITION, it's xenophobia: "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

                                                      Because it's totally reasonable to fear a group of people openly advocating driving you off your land. Seriously, what part of this are you finding difficult?


                                                      "Exactly. The Ottomans took over. What was their response? Who was before the Ottomans? Who was before those that were before the Ottomans and before them, then? They reacted differently to the European Jews than they did to the Turks"

                                                      Did any of these people attempt to drive off the locals?
                                                      • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                        Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:19 AM
                                                        Dustin:
                                                        > Because it's totally reasonable to fear a group of people openly advocating driving you off your land. Seriously, what part of this are you finding difficult?

                                                        If a group of American Muslims advocate setting up a Shariah state within the USA, and Christians start murdering Muslims across America I'm going to use the term 'Xenophobia'.

                                                        Once you start killing all of a minority group because of the actions of a few, you're crossed a line.

                                                        It's pretty hard to argue that their fear is "rational" if they're murdering anyone who even vaguely looks like the people who they think might be a threat.

                                                        Do you understand that?
                                                    • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                      Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:11 AM
                                                      <<<The point that I do not understand>>>

                                                      OK good start andrew

                                                      <<<to suggest that it was just this "phobia of dispossession"? That's creating a reality instead of looking into the real reasoning. I don't buy that this mythical fear of being dispossessed drove them instead of a fear of the JEWS moving in. >>>>

                                                      Whether you 'buy it' or not that is what is revealed by the historical record and modern Israeli scholars who have unprecedented access to documentation from the period. It is a strange reality indeed to think you know so much more than those Israeli professionals who have dedicated their lives to this and are ardent Zionists as well.

                                                      Now to the bigger errors...

                                                      A)<<<If it was someone else instead of Jews, that'd be the same thing - it's xenophobia that caused them to act out, this xenophobia based on ONE GROUP, "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.">>>

                                                      B)<<<And their fear wasn't simply one of dispossession. It was a fear of dispossession by a people who were "different".>
                                                      Exactly. The Ottomans took over. What was their response? Who was before the Ottomans? Who was before those that were before the Ottomans and before them, then? They reacted differently to the European Jews than they did to the Turks. That's xenophobia, not just a fear of dispossession.>>>

                                                      You are claiming two OPPOSITE things in A and B. Would it be 'the same thing' to every group? or 'different'??

                                                      The aims of the groups you mentioned were indeed different, the goal of the European Jews to dispossess them and move them from their territory to create a Jewish majority state. While the goal of the Ottomans was to install a governor and incorporate them into the Ottoman empire, but dispossessing no one.

                                                      Hence the differing reaction by the indigenous Arabs.

                                                      Thanks for your examples andrew, they served very useful in illustrating the issues involved.
                                                      • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                        Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:22 AM
                                                        John:
                                                        > Whether you 'buy it' or not that is what is revealed by the historical record...

                                                        You've quoted your own personal interpretation of a couple of historians. That hardly makes "fact".

                                                        And there still is a HUGE hole in your argument.

                                                        How do you explain these sort of quotes:

                                                        "Islam was born of the sword"

                                                        "The prophet ... said ... Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

                                                        "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives"

                                                        Look through the quotes of Muslims at the time, and groups like Hamas today. Do they speak of a fear of displacement? Or do they speak of a desire to maintain Islamic supremacy?
                                                        • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                          Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:43 AM
                                                          <<<You've quoted your own personal interpretation of a couple of historians. That hardly makes "fact". >>>

                                                          I QUOTED verbatim the historians, bloody f'n hell. What have you been smoking????
                                                          Are you and andrew engaged in some sort of secret lunacy contest you are keeping us in the dark about?
                                                          Honestly I'm not sure which of you I think is winning.
                                                          • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                            Wed, November 11, 2009 - 11:53 AM
                                                            John:
                                                            > I QUOTED verbatim the historians, bloody f'n hell. What have you been smoking????

                                                            Yes, you QUOTED them verbatim, and then added your own interpretation claiming that it wasn't "Xenophobia". Why don't you email the authors and ask them if they feel that Xenophobia was a factor in the Muslim pogroms against Jews?

                                                            I eagerly await an response to those emails.

                                                            Meanwhile there is a HUGE hole in your argument.

                                                            How do you explain these sort of quotes:

                                                            "Islam was born of the sword"

                                                            "The prophet ... said ... Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

                                                            "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. ... This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest..."

                                                            "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives"

                                                            Look through the quotes of Muslims at the time, and groups like Hamas today. Do they speak of a fear of displacement? Or do they speak of a desire to maintain Islamic supremacy?
                                                            • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                              Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:09 PM
                                                              <<<Yes, you QUOTED them verbatim, and then added your own interpretation claiming that it wasn't "Xenophobia". Why don't you email the authors and ask them if they feel that Xenophobia was a factor in the Muslim pogroms against Jews?

                                                              I eagerly await an response to those emails. >>>

                                                              If you don't have the intellectual resources to process their quotes along with the meaning of xenophobia, no amount of e-mails or enemas will help you.
                                                              • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                                Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:14 PM
                                                                John:

                                                                In preaching constant hate against Israel, you can't manage to answer simple questions, can you?

                                                                Your theory has one big hole. How do you explain these sort of quotes:

                                                                "Islam was born of the sword"

                                                                "The prophet ... said ... Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

                                                                "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. ... This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest..."

                                                                "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives"

                                                                Look through the quotes of Muslims at the time, and groups like Hamas today. Do they speak of a fear of displacement?

                                                                Or do they speak of a desire to maintain Islamic supremacy?
                                                                • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                                  Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:22 PM
                                                                  <<<In preaching constant hate against Israel, you can't manage to answer simple questions, can you? >>>

                                                                  When you start a post with utter tripe like this do you really expect a conversation in return?

                                                                  You aren't even man enough to admit you were out of line in implying I ever said all Zionists were evil.

                                                                  You playing a clown here Adam, if that's what you want go for it.
                                                                  • Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                                    Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:50 PM
                                                                    John:

                                                                    You accuse me of lunacy and being a clown, but can't handle a bit of the same being thrown in the opposite direction? Grow up.

                                                                    So, once again.

                                                                    In preaching constant hate against Israel, you can't manage to answer simple questions, can you?

                                                                    Your theory has one big hole. How do you explain these sort of quotes:

                                                                    "Islam was born of the sword"

                                                                    "The prophet ... said ... Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

                                                                    "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. ... This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest..."

                                                                    "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives"

                                                                    Look through the quotes of Muslims at the time, and groups like Hamas today.

                                                                    What do they speak of more? A fear of displacement? Or a desire to maintain Islamic supremacy?

                                                                    Can one simultaneously be a "Supremacist" and be excused of xenophobia because they're afraid?
                                                    • .
                                                      .
                                                      offline 39

                                                      Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                      Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:00 AM
                                                      <I don't get how someone can insist that there was no xenophobia going on. I mean, by the very DEFINITION, it's xenophobia: "an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange." >

                                                      No, its NOT the definition of xenophobia. Learn to READ, Andrew. Xenophobes must hate ALL FOREIGNERS. Its like trying to teach a third grader.
                                                    • .
                                                      .
                                                      offline 39

                                                      Re: An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

                                                      Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:01 AM
                                                      <Exactly. The Ottomans took over. What was their response? Who was before the Ottomans? Who was before those that were before the Ottomans and before them, then? They reacted differently to the European Jews than they did to the Turks. That's xenophobia, not just a fear of dispossession.>

                                                      What idiocy.

                                                      The Turks were foreigners too. And you OBVIOUSLY have NO IDEA regarding Palestinian history pre 19th c.

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