US House rejects Goldstone report

topic posted Thu, November 5, 2009 - 7:46 PM by  Nolen
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This ought to make the apologists happy. What I'm waiting for is Lieberman to trade his filibuster vote in the health care debate for an equally abhorrent resolution in the Senate.
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US House rejects Goldstone report
November 04, 2009
Aljazeera

english.aljazeera.net/news/am...455.html

The US House of Representatives has rejected as "irredeemably biased" the findings of a UN-sponsored report which says Israel committed war crimes during its military assault on the Gaza Strip.

The house on Tuesday voted 344 to 36 in favour of a non-binding resolution calling on Barack Obama, the US president, to maintain his opposition to the report, which was written by a panel led by Richard Goldstone, a South African judge.

The report accused Israel and the Palestinian Hamas group, which has de facto control of Gaza, of war crimes during the 22-day conflict in December and January.

But most of its criticism was directed towards Israel's conduct during the offensive, in which human rights organisations say about 1,400 Palestinians - many of them women and children - were killed.

Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians, were also killed over the course of the war, Israel has said.

Steny Hoyer, the Democrat House majority leader, said it was important to adopt an official resolution against the Goldstone report as it "paints a distorted picture".

It "epitomizes the practice of singling Israel out from all other nations for condemnation," he said on Tuesday.

UN assembly pressure

The US house vote came a day before the United Nations General Assembly is expected to debate its own resolution endorsing the findings of the Goldstone report.

"Remember - the key recommendation of Goldstone is to get a credible investigation into the alleged war crimes that the Goldstone commission found evidence of in Gaza, and the UN Security Council is the only body that can move forward and demand an investigation," she said.

"The general assembly just does not have that power. Of course, on the security council, the United States is a veto-wielding member and, as the congressional vote underscores, the US is not going to be interested in moving forward in the security council to call for an investigation by the International Criminal Court (ICC), or anyone else for that matter."

Riyad Mansour, the Palestinian representative to the UN, criticised the Security Council for so far failing to act "in triggering the mechanism that Goldstone wanted, the investigation, the monitoring and then reporting after six months before considering moving into the ICC".

"The General Assembly, in a responsible way in the draft we have submitted by the Arab group, which hopefully in the next two days will receive large support, has taken some of the responsibility from the security council ... and asked for the investigation to begin," he told Al Jazeera.

The United Nations Human Rights Council, which sponsored the Goldstone commission, has already voted to endorse the report.

Bias claims

Steven Rothman, a Democratic congressman from New Jersey, told Al Jazeera that the report was biased against Israel, even after the Goldstone commission's mandate was expanded so that it could investigate war crimes alleged to have been committed by Hamas.

"The report was not written to talk about 12,000 rockets intentionally sent by Hamas to slaughter Israeli men, women and children, versus the Israelis trying in many respects to minimise the damage to Palestinian civilians," he told Al Jazeera.
"So there have been completely different standards applied."
But when asked if he had read the Goldstone report in full, Rothman said he had read only the report's executive summary.

"I did not read the 400 or 500 pages, but I read the executive summary designed for members of congress and other world leaders to read, and I found it terribly, terribly biased and one-sided," he said.

But Brian Baird, a Democrat congressman for Washington state, said that the resolution failed to "accurately characterise" the Goldstone report and made no attempt to reflect the situation on the ground in Gaza.

"My belief is that it is incumbent on all of us who care about justice and peace in the region to look equally, with an equally critical eye, and all sides of this argument," he told Al Jazeera.

"One of the important elements of working towards peace and justice is that if someone of the calibre of Justice Goldstone, with the deligence and thoroughness of his investigation, ... reports on the kind of events that occured that merits further consideration.

"The resolution before us in the House would block that."

Goldstone clarifications

The result of Tuesday's vote had been widely anticipated.

In January, as Israel bombarded the Palestinian territory, the House had overwhelmingly backed a resolution "recognising Israel's right to defend itself against attacks from Israel".

The influential American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) had lobbied strongly for the latest resolution and said it "strongly applauded" the House's action on Tuesday.

Goldstone last week sent a letter to the US House of Representatives saying that the text of the US resolution had "factual inaccuracies and instances where information and statements are taken grossly out of context".

He offered several rejections and clarifications of the ideas expressed in the resolution.

In response to Goldstone's criticism, three parts of the resolution were amended on Tuesday to clarify that Goldstone had sought an expansion to the commission's mandate so that his team could investigate claims that Hamas had violated international law during the Gaza war.

The Goldstone report, which accused Israel of using "disproportionate force" and of deliberately targeting civilians, called for independent investigations to be held into Israel's and Hamas's conduct during the war.

The report called for the cases to be referred to the ICC in The Hague if Israel and Hamas do not investigate the war crimes allegations against them within six months.

Hamas has agreed to hold such an investigation, but Israel has not.
posted by:
Nolen
Los Angeles
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  • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

    Thu, November 5, 2009 - 9:32 PM
    <This ought to make the apologists happy.>

    This ought to make the agendists unhappy.

    <Hamas has agreed to hold such an investigation, but Israel has not.>

    Even Nolen must find this line humorous. I mean, Hamas - hold an investigation that will without question put their entire leadership in prison? Yeah. Right. Israeli "war crimes" are gray areas, where Hamas & Co.'s are UNQUESTIONABLE.

    Not that you'll ever see these guys talking about the Hamas war crimes...
    • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

      Fri, November 6, 2009 - 12:13 PM
      I'm with andrew on this one, HAMAS investigating itself is as ludicrous as the IDF doing so.


      The House rejection is no surprise. I think the number of Arabs or Middle Easterners who are hanging on to any of the faint hope Obama's, now distant seeming speech in Cairo brought is in the single digits.
      • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

        Fri, November 6, 2009 - 12:22 PM
        <<HAMAS investigating itself is as ludicrous as the IDF doing so. >>

        Certainly but that's hardly the point. When the congress of the United States condemns a report which condemns war crimes it leaves the impression that the congress of the United Stated condones war crimes. In my mind, the whole lot of them should join Karadzic at the ICC. They deserve each other.
        • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

          Fri, November 6, 2009 - 12:27 PM
          <<<When the congress of the United States condemns a report which condemns war crimes it leaves the impression that the congress of the United Stated condones war crimes.>>>

          Was there ever the time that people thought they DIDN'T condone Israel war crimes??
          • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

            Fri, November 6, 2009 - 12:42 PM
            <<Was there ever the time that people thought they DIDN'T condone Israel war crimes?? >>

            I think you'd find that most Americans didn't think so. Even as recent of as the '06 war on Lebanon you'd be hard pressed to find as stark a condemnation as with Cast Lead. There has always been a reservoir of sympathy for Israel and we Americans tend not to look to closely at the details of this seemingly intractable conflict. However, Cast Lead and the blockade go way beyond these prior conflicts. 100-1 casualty ratios, blatant destruction of civilian infrastructure and basic food sources. It's impossible to justify on any level. That a renown human rights judge with close ties to Israel would spend months detailing violations of international law and the congress would dismiss it out of hand is shameful. I expect this level of inhumanity from the apologists but hardly from elected representative of the world's leading democracy.
            • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

              Fri, November 6, 2009 - 8:29 PM
              <100-1 casualty ratios>

              So what? What does that have to do with war crimes? That Israel is better at it does not mean that they committed war crimes.

              <blatant destruction of civilian infrastructure and basic food sources.>

              That's the closest that you can get to a war crime. Even that could be explained depending if Hamas & Co. used these buildings to house weapons or combatants. We KNOW that they put weapons in government buildings and private homes - so why not these other buildings, too? We KNOW that Hamas & Co. committed their war crimes from within or near civilian and public buildings and we KNOW that Hamas & Co. used human shields and booby-trapped Pal homes, many of which surely killed their 'own' people.

              <It's impossible to justify on any level.>

              So you say.
          • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

            Fri, November 6, 2009 - 3:38 PM
            John: "Was there ever the time that people thought they DIDN'T condone Israel war crimes??"

            Most of the world, like 90+ percent (conservative estimate), has never condoned Israeli war crimes.
        • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

          Fri, November 6, 2009 - 8:23 PM
          <When the congress of the United States condemns a report which condemns war crimes it leaves the impression that the congress of the United Stated condones war crimes.>

          Depends on why they rejected the report. If they rejected it because it was "irredeemably biased", that means nothing to any " impression that the congress of the United Stated condones war crimes." unless you WANT it to mean that. I also found it "irredeemably biased". It somehow spent about 90% of the report talking about Israeli POSSIBLE war crimes, but pretty much ignored the ABSOLUTE and UNQUESTIONABLE Pal war crimes. You're creating a story here, not relaying one in this opinion.
          • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

            Fri, November 6, 2009 - 8:58 PM
            "It somehow spent about 90% of the report talking about Israeli POSSIBLE war crimes, but pretty much ignored the ABSOLUTE and UNQUESTIONABLE Pal war crimes."

            Uhm, isn't that the logical outcome of the Israeli boycott of the investigation?
            • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

              Sat, November 7, 2009 - 2:57 AM
              <Uhm, isn't that the logical outcome of the Israeli boycott of the investigation?>

              Well, depends on who is forming the report. One the one side, there's the Hamas 'cooperation', where they fed the investigators with what I am sure was only the most truthful info...

              On the other hand, there was Israel who did not feel that the UN would be able to be balanced and honest with their review of the situation.

              But, even beyond that, let me ask you this: While what you say has some validity, for sure - how would Israel's boycott not allow the UN investigators to spend more time on the Hamas actions? What - did they want Israel to give them all the information that they'd need? They have all that they'd need - all the numbers for how many rockets and mortars are all over the web, so surely the UN investigators would be able to google it...

              If they wanted to ask Hamas & Co. about their war crimes that STARTED this mess, they could have. I wonder why they did not do more?

              That their whole issue seemed to be that they felt that there was a disproportionate amount of force - that seemed to be their issue. Balance was not seemingly their issue.
              • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                Sat, November 7, 2009 - 4:50 AM
                "But, even beyond that, let me ask you this: While what you say has some validity, for sure - how would Israel's boycott not allow the UN investigators to spend more time on the Hamas actions? What - did they want Israel to give them all the information that they'd need? They have all that they'd need - all the numbers for how many rockets and mortars are all over the web, so surely the UN investigators would be able to google it... "

                Andrew, I would question anyones intelligence who issued a UN report based on "googling" for information. "Googling" is what most people do on tribe, and it continually reveals a lack of data and understanding

                • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                  Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:54 PM
                  <Andrew, I would question anyones intelligence who issued a UN report based on "googling" for information. "Googling" is what most people do on tribe, and it continually reveals a lack of data and understanding>

                  I was being glib. My point was that for the UN Inspectors to do their own due-dilligence on Hamas' UNQUESTIONABLE war crimes, they'd not need Israel for that. You complain that Isreal didn't help - Israel didn't help DEFEND themselves, but that says NOTHING about Goldstone & Co. doing more of a job investigating HAMAS. They don't need Israel in order to investigate Hamas & Co.'s actions, do they?

                  So, what you have is IF Israel had worked with the investigators, MAYBE some of the blame put on Israel would have not worked out like that? Is that what you're saying? And, to again move forward from that...how did the Israeli boycott from talking to the investigators stop the investigators from investigating Hamas & Co.?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                    Sat, November 7, 2009 - 4:01 PM
                    "I was being glib. My point was that for the UN Inspectors to do their own due-dilligence on Hamas' UNQUESTIONABLE war crimes, they'd not need Israel for that. You complain that Isreal didn't help - Israel didn't help DEFEND themselves, but that says NOTHING about Goldstone & Co. doing more of a job investigating HAMAS. They don't need Israel in order to investigate Hamas & Co.'s actions, do they? "

                    Sure they don't. But the logical outcome is a one sided report


                    "So, what you have is IF Israel had worked with the investigators, MAYBE some of the blame put on Israel would have not worked out like that? Is that what you're saying? And, to again move forward from that...how did the Israeli boycott from talking to the investigators stop the investigators from investigating Hamas & Co.?"

                    Andrew, are you being intentionally obtuse? Why would the IDF or Hamas be upfront and honest about their own actions?
                    • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                      Sun, November 8, 2009 - 2:30 AM
                      <Sure they don't. But the logical outcome is a one sided report>

                      I still don't understand. They had all the time in the world and ACCESS to Hamas & Co. to get the information on the attacks on Israel that CAUSED this mess...yet, we see VERY LITTLE discussion about this in the report. I just find this odd. You find it reasonable. Viva la differance.

                      <Andrew, are you being intentionally obtuse? Why would the IDF or Hamas be upfront and honest about their own actions?>

                      Dustin, are you being intentionally obtuse? Why would the IDF have information on the over 8K rockets that's not already widely known?

                      Here's what we KNOW:

                      1) Hamas & Co. UNQUESTIONABLY are war criminals. Their actions from the mortars and rockets, to their putting their weapons in civilian areas to shooting from civilian areas to using human shields? UNQUESTIONABLE war crimes. No one can argue this.
                      2) Israel had PERHAPS committed war crimes in only two cases - the use of force and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. The first one? Nonsense, because they did more than any other military to anyone's knowledge to try to NOT kill innocents. The latter? That's questionable, obviously. Hitting the civilian infrastructure is questionable ONLY if those buildings were NOT used for hiding weapons or militants or if Hamas & Co. were not attacking FROM these areas.

                      So, we know that one party are absolutely war criminals. The other are MAYBE war criminals, but of a far, far more meager type. One intentionally attacked innocents and caused this whole mess and the other may have bombed civilian infrastructure.

                      I'd rather have ten times the civilian infrastructure destroyed rather than intentional attacks on innocents, but that's just me, I guess.
                      • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                        Sun, November 8, 2009 - 3:06 PM
                        "I still don't understand. "

                        This doesn't surprise anyone


                        "They had all the time in the world and ***ACCESS to Hamas & Co***. to get the information on the attacks on Israel that CAUSED this mess...yet, we see VERY LITTLE discussion about this in the report. I just find this odd. You find it reasonable. Viva la differance. "

                        No, Andrew, I'm just looking at things realistically: that no one with functioning gray matter would expect Hams or the IDF to be upfront and honest about their own actions


                        "Dustin, are you being intentionally obtuse? Why would the IDF have information on the over 8K rockets that's not already widely known? "

                        Again, review my point about googling



                        "So, we know that one party are absolutely war criminals. The other are MAYBE war criminals, but of a far, far more meager type. One intentionally attacked innocents and caused this whole mess and the other may have bombed civilian infrastructure."

                        Actually Israel has been in violation of the 4th Geneva convention for decades


                        "I'd rather have ten times the civilian infrastructure destroyed rather than intentional attacks on innocents, but that's just me, I guess. "

                        Yes, because removing peoples access to clean water and electricity has no reciprocal effects on entire populations
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                    Sun, November 8, 2009 - 12:36 AM
                    <<<<<Andrew, I would question anyones intelligence who issued a UN report based on "googling" for information. "Googling" is what most people do on tribe, and it continually reveals a lack of data and understanding>

                    <<<I was being glib>>>>>>


                    andrew it seems as though whenever you are confronted on a wrong statement of yours, you excuse is 'I was being glib' or 'That was hyperbole' or 'that was assholeness', or 'I was being jerky'...etc.

                    Wouldn't a better level of discourse be achieved by simply speaking the truth in a mature manner?
                    • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                      Sun, November 8, 2009 - 2:33 AM
                      <andrew it seems as though whenever you are confronted on a wrong statement of yours, you excuse is 'I was being glib'>

                      Another of your laughable assertions. You say that I am wrong ALL THE TIME, and I don't remember the last time that I said such a thing as "being glib" before that. Now you're just making shit up. Keep throwing shit at the wall - some of your rhetorical shit will stick to be sure. We'll call it the "Salil Method". Dumb people will fall for it, so keep it up.

                      <Wouldn't a better level of discourse be achieved by simply speaking the truth in a mature manner?>

                      Um, I tried that. I offered that. No one here but Adam supported that call. You made your bed... Or, maybe YOU should start a thread like I did and call for that? Maybe YOU should speak up when someone from YOUR side behaves in a manner far worse with what you're confronting me?

                      <But does it say ANYTHING we didn't already know?>

                      See? You don't want reasonable discourse. Stop your histrionics.
                      • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                        Sun, November 8, 2009 - 1:41 PM
                        <<<Maybe YOU should speak up when someone from YOUR side behaves in a manner far worse with what you're confronting me? >>>

                        Did we pick teams? I may have been sick that day.
                        • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                          Sun, November 8, 2009 - 4:42 PM
                          <Did we pick teams? I may have been sick that day.>

                          Great way to dodge the point, John.

                          <<"I still don't understand. ">>

                          <This doesn't surprise anyone>

                          See, what I DO understand is how you rush to the insults since you can't support your point.

                          <No, Andrew, I'm just looking at things realistically: that no one with functioning gray matter would expect Hams or the IDF to be upfront and honest about their own actions>

                          More insults. You're saying that there's NOTHING that this investigatory group could have done to research the attacks FROM Gaza into Israel? Got it. Yeah. Oooooooooooooooooooook.

                          <Actually Israel has been in violation of the 4th Geneva convention for decades>

                          We're talking about the attack on Gaza. Catch up.

                          <Yes, because removing peoples access to clean water and electricity has no reciprocal effects on entire populations>

                          Way to deflect the point.
                          • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                            Sun, November 8, 2009 - 4:47 PM
                            "See, what I DO understand is how you rush to the insults since you can't support your point. "

                            Actually I do support my point. I just figured I would throw the insult in there for good measure


                            "You're saying that there's NOTHING that this investigatory group could have done to research the attacks FROM Gaza into Israel? Got it. Yeah. Oooooooooooooooooooook."

                            No, Andrew, I keep pointing out that by boycotting the investigation, Israel limited the investigative body's access to a huge amount of information. So of course the report is going to be one sided.

                            I honestly don't understand how this is so difficult for you to comprehend



                            "Way to deflect the point. "

                            Deflect? No, I spoke directly to your point
      • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

        Fri, November 6, 2009 - 8:13 PM
        <I'm with andrew on this one, HAMAS investigating itself is as ludicrous as the IDF doing so.>

        Yep. The only difference is that Israel HAS sentenced their own soldiers to prison for their actions.

        Soldier gets two weeks in prison for shooting a resisting civilian: www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/795069.html
        Soldier gets 7.5 months for looting: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite
        Soldier gets ~20 years in prison for killing British citizen: www.wsws.org/articles/20...ra-j09.shtml
        Soldier found guilty of beating death: www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1192788.html

        Should I keep going? I could find dozens.

        The point is that Israel is lax on their soldiers, to be sure - but they sure are better in this context than Hamas.
        • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

          Fri, November 6, 2009 - 9:05 PM
          "Soldier gets two weeks in prison for shooting a resisting civilian"


          <<<According to a senior military source, the trial of the soldier by a disciplinary court would prevent bringing him before a court martial.

          The details of the incident collected by B'Tselem suggest that the soldier pushed Yasin in response to his comment, and Yasin pushed the soldier back. The soldier then hit Yasin, and two other soldiers joined the fracas, trying to grab Yasin, and hit him, while Yasin tried resisting. At some point the soldiers fired in the air and on the ground. Even after Yasin fell to the ground, they grabbed and threw him against the cement blocks used to make a roadblock. He was cuffed and the soldiers continued to hit and kick him.>>>


          I can't believe you seriously offered this as evidence of the IDF seeking justice



          "The point is that Israel is lax on their soldiers, to be sure - but they sure are better in this context than Hamas. "

          That's damning with faint praise
          • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

            Sat, November 7, 2009 - 2:59 AM
            <I can't believe you seriously offered this as evidence of the IDF seeking justice>

            Of course I did. The guy starts to fight a soldier, the soldier (reportedly) fires NOT at the guy, but the guy gets hit anyway. If this happened in one of our cities where at a traffic stop some guy who is fighting with multiple cops gets shot with a ricochet - you really think that the prosecutor would spend much time going after the cop?

            No. Unless there was some PROOF that the soldier INTENTIONALLY shot the guy... They could have just ignored it, could they not have?

            <That's damning with faint praise>

            Still factually relevant.
            • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

              Sat, November 7, 2009 - 4:46 AM
              "Of course I did. The guy starts to fight a soldier, the soldier (reportedly) fires NOT at the guy, but the guy gets hit anyway. If this happened in one of our cities where at a traffic stop some guy who is fighting with multiple cops gets shot with a ricochet - you really think that the prosecutor would spend much time going after the cop? "

              Did you even read the report? The soldier initiated contact.

              If this happened in the US, under similar circumstances, it would be considered a total miscarriage of justice
              • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:51 PM
                <Did you even read the report? The soldier initiated contact.>

                Yes, the soldier PUSHED the guy. Let me ask YOU something, Dustin: If you were at a routine traffic stop and a cop pushed you and you initiated contact back to him, and then three other cops came over and you started to resist them, how much time would a cop get if you were shot by a ricochet? Maybe a few weeks off-time for inappropriately initiating contact? (Assuming that the Israeli soldier was innapropriate in pushing the guy - you don't know what happened and I do not either. If a soldier was to push a guy at a checkpoint that was being aggressive, why is that so bad? I have no problem with it, actually.)

                <If this happened in the US, under similar circumstances, it would be considered a total miscarriage of justice>

                Depends on the situation altogether, does it not? If at a demonstration a cop pushed an aggressive demonstrator and then that demonstrator started fighting with the cop? You REALLY think that if the situation expanded to the guy getting shot with a ricochet, "it would be considered a total miscarriage of justice"? Nope. One does not fight against cops. That's not smart and that's not how it works. You don't do that in your day to day life - but you think that it's appropriate in the West Bank? Really?
                • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                  Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:59 PM
                  "Yes, the soldier PUSHED the guy. Let me ask YOU something, Dustin: If you were at a routine traffic stop and a cop pushed you and you initiated contact back to him, and then three other cops came over and you started to resist them, how much time would a cop get if you were shot by a ricochet? Maybe a few weeks off-time for inappropriately initiating contact? (Assuming that the Israeli soldier was innapropriate in pushing the guy - you don't know what happened and I do not either. If a soldier was to push a guy at a checkpoint that was being aggressive, why is that so bad? I have no problem with it, actually.) "

                  Again, read the report andrew: It says the israeli soldier pushed the guy due to his statements.


                  "I have no problem with it, actually"

                  Of course you don't.


                  "Depends on the situation altogether, does it not? If at a demonstration a cop pushed an aggressive demonstrator and then that demonstrator started fighting with the cop? You REALLY think that if the situation expanded to the guy getting shot with a ricochet, "it would be considered a total miscarriage of justice"? Nope. One does not fight against cops. That's not smart and that's not how it works. You don't do that in your day to day life - but you think that it's appropriate in the West Bank? Really? "

                  Andrew, the soldier initiated contact, discharged his weapon in a totally inappropriate circumstance, while a group of them were beating up the guy.

                  The fact that you don't see anything wrong with this says more about you than any statement I could make
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                    Sun, November 8, 2009 - 12:39 AM
                    <<<The fact that you don't see anything wrong with this says more about you than any statement I could make >>

                    But does it say ANYTHING we didn't already know?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                    Sun, November 8, 2009 - 2:21 AM
                    <Again, read the report andrew: It says the israeli soldier pushed the guy due to his statements.>

                    Um? And...yeah? So what? The soldier PUSHED him!? Oh may GOD! The guy was PUSHED!!! PUSHED!!! Call the UN, it's another War Crime! There - another War Criminal!!!

                    <Of course you don't.>

                    And nor should you. The guy was acting agitated and the soldier pushed him away? Big fucking deal. One gets shot if one resists cops or soldiers in this context. What did he expect to happen?

                    What should I say? That I am upset that this guy was shot? Of course I am no happy that this happened, but I am not going to support every guy at every checkpoint resisting the demands of the soldiers, because then people will start dying FOR NOTHING.

                    <Andrew, the soldier initiated contact, discharged his weapon in a totally inappropriate circumstance, while a group of them were beating up the guy.>

                    Yes, we know that the guy in question was yelling at the soldier about an issue, and probably was being more aggressive than was appropriate for the situation and the soldier PUSHED him. In other situations, the guy would get his ass beat and he'd be arrested OR WORSE, but this guy only got PUSHED!!! Would it not be GREAT if ONLY these people were pushed instead of beaten and shot? Or, would it be better that every guy at a checkpoint who is angry at something started being aggressive with soldiers...? No, the soldier did the right thing. He pushed the guy away, and the guy then resisted, just like in YOUR town, if you were being aggressive with a cop and he pushed you away and you came at him, you'd be arrested WITHOUT QUESTION. But, it's OK for this guy to do that?

                    OR, would you be fine if he was just arrested? I doubt it.

                    <The fact that you don't see anything wrong with this says more about you than any statement I could make>

                    It's too bad that the guy was shot - but I don't know all the facts and neither do you. THAT is why I have no problem. With the facts as we all now know them, I have no problem with him being harmed by a ricocheted warning shot. It sucks, but that's what happens when one does not conform to the demands in this case. Do I like it? No - but it's a fact. One conforms or this shit happens.
                    • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

                      Sun, November 8, 2009 - 2:27 AM
                      "And nor should you. The guy was acting agitated and the soldier pushed him away? Big fucking deal. One gets shot if one resists cops or soldiers in this context. What did he expect to happen?"

                      He got shot while three of them were beating him, and they continued the beating after he was shot. And as much as this might surprise you, the Palestinians have basic human rights. Soldiers are not allowed to just assault them on a whim, and then shoot an individual for merely defending himself from a group of attackers
  • Re: US House rejects Goldstone report

    Wed, November 11, 2009 - 7:59 PM
    Me thinks Andy's got a little Jewish-pride chip on his shoulder.

    Andy, the Holocaust does not grant Jews immunity from crimes against humanity.

    Andy, Israel is a stink hole... a mecca of injustice.


    Palestinian child talks of "abuse" in Israeli prison
    www.youtube.com/watch

    So this kid was arrested and subsequently beaten and tortured (both physically and mentally) simply for throwing a rock at the hideous and highly illegal separation wall which cuts through his land. For throwing a rock at a cement wall on his own turf... Motherfuckers. Israel is VOID of morals. Deal with it, bigot.

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