Unsu...You are a resident of GB and therefore cannot be expected to know anything about American History. America is a Christain nation and this fact has been demonstrated times without number. No doubt, you will reject this evidence just as you do the overwhelming evidence for the historicity of Jesus, because you want to.....
You have books from the founders stating that this isn't a "christian nation"?:-) Perhaps you may want to offer them in defense of your thesis!??
The following quotes are all confirmed and documented, something my opponents rarely do. My prediction is that Entropy et. el. will offer the obscure "Treaty of Tripoli" and a few quotes from Jefferson as their "overwhelming evidence" that the United States is not a Christian nation. Note I have offered the view of court cases and the commentary of supreme court Justices, including the very first justice. Those ignorant of American History (just about everyone who went to a public school. Heck, one school text on Washington edited out his remarks on "religion" from his farewell address, so you cannot hardly blame the lefties for being so ignorant of the facts).
Readers need to take note that calling the United States a Christain Nation is not the same as calling it a theocracy. Our founders hated theocracies, Christian or otherwise and some quotes offered by the detractors are referring not to a generic Christian nation with liberty for all, but a theocracy, which all people should abhor! Secondly, understand that there are no quotes by any founder that I am aware of that state that America was founded as a "secular nation" as ignorant lefties love to claim. If I am wrong, lets see those quotes and the references for them.
George Washington appointed John Jay as the first supreme court justice of the United States. John Jay has this to say"
"Almost all nations have peace or war at the will and pleasure of rulers whom they do not elect, and who are not always wise or virtuous. Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, editor (New York: G. P. Punam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, pp. 391-393, 403-419, letters to John Murray, October 12, 1816 and April 15, 1818.
In 1892 the US Supreme Court made this ruling in a case. (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States.) "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."
Supreme court Justice Joseph Story on the first amendment to the constitution:
""We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence, than the framers of the Constitution) . . . Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the first amendment to it . . . . the general if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation . . . The real object of the amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity [secularism], by prostrating Christianity; but exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government." Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story on the First Amendment" excerpts from Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States by Supreme Court justice Joseph Story, published in 1833
Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. Richmond v. Moore, Illinois Supreme Court, 1883
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens" George Washington's farewell address.
Why is it that, next to the birth day of the Saviour of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [July 4th]? . . . Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birth-day of the Saviour? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity. . ? John Quincy Adams, An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport, at Their Request, on the Sixty-first Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1837 (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), p. 5.
Dan's Comment: Here John Quincy Adams acknowledged the connection of Jesus' birth to the birth of our nation and the foundation of our country, "that it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity". It is hard to get more clear that this!
"Almost all the civil liberty now enjoyed in the world owes its origin to the principles of the Christian religion.
. . . . . . . . . .
[T]he religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles.
. . . . . . . . . .
This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."
Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), p. 300, Sec. 578.
My opponents love to quote the "deist" Thomas Jefferson. He is their man "they think". However, you can find quotes of Jefferson which appear to say conflicting things and Jefferson was no liberal! Note:
"The only foundation for useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion."
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." Thomas Jefferson, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (Washington: Government Printing Office, 1904), House of Representatives, Document No. 755, 58th Congress, 2d Session.
Much has been made of the fact that Jefferson edited the bible removing all of the miracles of Jesus from it. But Jefferson stated that his intentions were not to create a new bible, but rather to introduce the Indians to the moral teachings of Jesus, which is why he titled it "the life and morals of Jesus of Nazareth.
"I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest system of morality that has ever been taught but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invented..."
Letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816
What about that other deist, Ben Franklin? Did he argue that this was a "secular nation" founded upon secularism? Heavens no! Franklin knew quite well the value of Christianity to society. In the context of teaching history to the youth of Philadelphia, he said:
"History will also afford the frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, &c. and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin, Proposals Relating to the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, 1749), p. 22.
Ben Franklin was not a Christian. He rejected the divinity of Christ, as did Jefferson. But they bear no resemblence to todays Christ haters. Note this quote:
"Go constantly to church, whoever preaches. The act of devotion in the Common Prayer Book is your principal business there, and if properly attended to, will do more towards amending the heart than sermons generally can do. For they were composed by men of much greater piety and wisdom, than our common composers of sermons can pretend to be; and therefore I wish you would never miss the prayer days; yet I do not mean you should despise sermons, even of the preachers you dislike, for the discourse is often much better than the man, as sweet and clear waters come through very dirty earth. I am the more particular on this head, as you seemed to express a little before I came away some inclination to leave our church, which I would not have you do." Benjamin Franklin, The Works of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, ed. (Boston: Tappan, Whittmore, and Mason, 1838), Vol. VII, pp. 269-271, letter to his daughter, Sarah, on November 8, 1764.
In conclusion. The constitution, although it does not explicity mention the Christian faith, is a Christian document nevertheless in that it is based upon the principles of Christianity in every respect. It's separation of powers, the right to bear arms etc are all based upon the doctrine of the sinfulness of man, the plurality of elders in the church etc. (suggested Reading, The Christian History of the Constitution by Rosalie Slater 2 volume set). The very existance of the document is no accident. As the worlds first written consistitution, it is based upon the contracts which God had with mankind in the Old and New testament (contract). The peoples, including the founders, were primarily Christian. Even the deists were more Christian than most of their modern fans. The government was founded not on secularism, the Quran or the Hindoo religion, as anyone who has every read history or read the inscriptions on the walls throughout DC (and had a remedial education in the bible) would know. We had Christian founders, Christian documents (Declaration and Constitution), and a Christian people. We even had established Church states at the time it was ratified!
And yet I appear to know more about your history than you. It was specifically not created as a Christian nation and most of its key figures were not Christians but rather deists and atheists - secularists all.
One must also consider the treaties involving the barbary pirates, treaties being binding under and as part of the US constitution which baldly states that the US is not founded on Christianity and the personal writings of those involved.
The US has Christians in it, but like revolutionary France, founded on many of the same principles, it's a secular state.
Unsu..."And yet I appear to know more about your history than you. It was specifically not created as a Christian nation and most of its key figures were not Christians but rather deists and atheists - secularists all."
Have you no shame at all Grim? You attack my well documented source quotes with your "official opinion" on the matter? Of the signers to the constitution, name those who were atheist
Of those who were deists, describe the form of deism they espoused
1) Ben Frankly
2) Thomas Jefferson
Name any who used the term "secularist" in reference to themselves or our country
"One must also consider the treaties involving the barbary pirates, treaties being binding under and as part of the US constitution which baldly states that the US is not founded on Christianity and the personal writings of those involved."
This treaty, with article 11 was nonbinding, as it was not in the arabic version and was not referring to "Christian nation" in the sense to which so many have refered to our Country but rather a "theocracy". It was written to placate muslim terrorists and did not work. Many mysteries surround this document and Barlow, who the diplomat in charge of taking it to the Arabs, but it does not in any way comprise a defense against the overwelming evidence I have provided below, which is only a drop in the bucket of what is out there.
"The US has Christians in it, but like revolutionary France, founded on many of the same principles, it's a secular state."
Again, no evidence provided. It is safe to say that you are off your rocker. No founder ever stated anywhere that this is a secular state, this includes Jefferson and Franklin. We are a generic Christian Nation. Our constitution is based upon the biblical view of man as a fallen sinful creature which its separation of powers. Our declaration of Independence openly demonstrates that Christian view of the rights of man as "unalienable". Not only were the vast majority of our peoples were and are Christian, but so were the vast majority of the signers and revolutionaries. Even our laws are based in Christianity. One has only to read our founders favorite christain philospher, John Locke, to know this. Or the writings of Montigue.
All were secularists since they believed in the separation of church and state.
You've pointed out two of the deists yourself. Of those Ben Franklin was an Atheist in all but name.
Jefferson, Washington and Paine were all atheists towards your religion and were deists in general.
Allen, Madison and Monroe were also Deists.
Your constitution affirms the secularism of the state specifically through the establishment clause. The non-religious nature of the state is confirmed in the personal writings of your founders and through the text of the treaty, binding or not.
Your laws do not derive from Christianity, whose core code derives from the Code of Hammurabi in any case. The European legal codes from which the American legal codes derive themselves derive from the legal process and laws of Ancient Rome.
Unsu..."All were secularists since they believed in the separation of church and state."
this is not a definition of "secularist". There are many, but the one you are trying to use would be defined like this: "an advocate of secularism; someone who believes that religion should be excluded from government and education".
Our founders didn't believe this. How do we know?
1) In 1777, Congress, facing a National shortage of `Bibles for our schools, and families, and for the public worship of God in our churches,' announced that they `desired to have a Bible printed under their care & by their encouragement' and therefore ordered 20,000 copies of the Bible to be imported `into the different ports of the States of the Union'."
Not exactly a "secularist" thing for congress to do now is it?
2) Becasue the first act of America's first Congress in 1774 was to ask a minister to open with prayer and to lead Congress in the reading of 4 chapters of the Bible!
3) Throughout the American Founding, Congress frequently appropriated money for missionaries and for religious instruction, a practice that Congress repeated for decades after the passage of the Constitution and the First Amendment!
4) In 1782, Congress pursued a plan to print a Bible that would be `a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools' and therefore approved the production of the first English language Bible printed in America that contained the congressional endorsement that `the United States in Congress assembled ... recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States'
5) In 1782, Congress adopted (and has reaffirmed on numerous subsequent occasions) the National Seal with its Latin motto `Annuit Coeptis,' meaning `God has favored our undertakings,' along with the eye of Providence in a triangle over a pyramid, the eye and the motto `allude to the many signal interpositions of Providence in favor of the American cause'.
6) the 1783 Treaty of Paris that officially ended the Revolution and established America as an independent begins with the appellation `In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity'.
7) In 1787 at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin declared, `God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? ... Without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel'
Not bad for a deist huh!!!
8) the delegates to the Constitutional Convention concluded their work by in effect placing a religious punctuation mark at the end of the Constitution in the Attestation Clause, noting not only that they had completed the work with `the unanimous consent of the States present' but they had done so `in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven'
9) James Madison declared that he saw the finished Constitution as a product of `the finger of that Almighty Hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the Revolution,' and George Washington viewed it as `little short of a miracle,' and Benjamin Franklin believed that its writing had been `influenced, guided, and governed by that omnipotent, omnipresent, and beneficent Ruler, in Whom all inferior spirits live, and move, and have their being'
10) from 1787 to 1788, State conventions to ratify the United States Constitution not only began with prayer but even met in church buildings
11) in 1795 during construction of the Capitol, a practice was instituted whereby `public worship is now regularly administered at the Capitol, every Sunday morning, at 11 o'clock'.
12) in 1789, the first Federal Congress, the Congress that framed the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment, appropriated Federal funds to pay chaplains to pray at the opening of all sessions, a practice that has continued to this day, with Congress not only funding its congressional chaplains but also the salaries and operations of more than 4,500 military chaplains.
13) in 1789, Congress, in the midst of framing the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment, passed the first Federal law touching education, declaring that `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged'
14) in 1789, on the same day that Congress finished drafting the First Amendment, it requested President Washington to declare a National day of prayer and thanksgiving, resulting in the first Federal official Thanksgiving proclamation that declared `it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor'
Let me know if you need any more proof that the wall of separation did not forbid the government of the U.S. from encouraging and supporting Christianity!
"You've pointed out two of the deists yourself. Of those Ben Franklin was an Atheist in all but name."
Neither were atheists. Jefferson when pressed, identified himself as a Christian. As noted above, Benjamen Franklin promoted prayer in the most non deist way during the constitutional convention:
" `God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? ... Without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel'
what kind of deist would say that God is active in the affairs of men? What kind of deist would encourage his nephew to attend church every time the door opens! Not any kind of deist you could call "one of us", that is for sure!
"Jefferson, Washington and Paine were all atheists towards your religion and were deists in general."
This is all an undocumented, unsubstantiated lie from an atheist with no backbone no conscience when it comes to truth. You have no case, you never have, you are a wimpy coward bedridden fool!
Unsu...you have no authority, provide nothing in debate except for a few comments such as "your wrong" and nothing else. The reader can determine for themselves, but after years of doing battle with you I can see that there is no point. Honest debate will never be possible with you.
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.You're answering the wrong question. You're answering 'Were some of the founding fathers religious and were they influenced by their religion?' You're not answering 'Did they found a Christian nation?' to which the answer is a resounding no, the central founding father figures being deists and proto-atheists, the establishment clause, personal commentary and comments and treaties all in support of this.
If a Christian builds a chair, is it a Christian chair?
GRIM is right, and the fact that the first congress started the first session by reading the bible only shows that they were too stupid to follow our constitution. An error that should not be repeated. No United States governmental meetings should acknowledge any religion.
>>> 13) in 1789, Congress, in the midst of framing the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment, passed the first Federal law touching education, declaring that `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged' <<<
It was wrong for them to have stated that in the law. Yet it only recognizes religion as one of three things they felt were necessary to "good government." It is a poor statement of values that blurs the separation of Church and State. Many Federal laws have been flawed in many ways. Thanks for the example. Keep them comming, but they don't mean the country ever was or ever should be a "christian nation."
Unsu..."GRIM is right, and the fact that the first congress started the first session by reading the bible only shows that they were too stupid to follow our constitution. An error that should not be repeated. No United States governmental meetings should acknowledge any religion."
We did not ask you for your opinion. We are looking for your rebuttal to the clear testimony of founders judges, supreme court justices and an abundance of evidence including our founding documents, the founders themelves etc.. Contravening the evidence, you offer your silly opinions on the matter, as usual.
>>> 13) in 1789, Congress, in the midst of framing the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment, passed the first Federal law touching education, declaring that `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged' <<<
"It was wrong for them to have stated that in the law."
more worthless opinions. The founders wrote the bill of writes and were signatores to the constitution. It is safe to say they understood the intent better than two irrational atheist believers (one from England) here in the 20th Century.
"Yet it only recognizes religion as one of three things they felt were necessary to "good government." It is a poor statement of values that blurs the separation of Church and State."
It does nothing of the sort. What it does is help us in the 20th Century understand the establishment clause better and to fight off those such as yourself, who are attempting to rewrite history to suit your own prejudices. This amendment was written to prevent an established theocracy similar to those in Europe and to prevent the government from meddling in the affairs of the Church. It did not prevent our government from encouraging, supporting and favoring, Christianity, above all other philosophies as the character of our state. This is history, this is fact, your opinions aside.
"Many Federal laws have been flawed in many ways. Thanks for the example. Keep them comming, but they don't mean the country ever was or ever should be a "christian nation." "
The country is and was a Christian nation. It can be no other and still remain "land of the free and home of the brave". To freedom requires a Christian understanding of man and government. Our founders knew this, you unfortunately, do not.
Your opinions are just as worthless, and who the hell is "we?" I explained why your "evidence" is not relevant. There are many stupid things people have done in this country. Using the same logic as put forth as "evidence" that this is a christian nation one could argue it is a racist nation. Everyone should reject both. We aren't tied by errors of the past, and nothing of those past errors can revoke the principle of separation of church and state. It was the intent of the founding fathers, many of whom were deists, some atheists; to keep religion and government separate. It was to avoid having either an official religion or undue influence by undemocratically organized religious institutions.
>> more worthless opinions. <<
A worthless opinion of yours.
>> This is history, this is fact, your opinions aside. <<
No that is not fact it is your interpretation of facts, your opinion.
>> The country is and was a Christian nation. <<
Nope, sorry. Not true, and citing lots of fools who have said so or acted as if that is true does not make it so.
Unsu...the basis of a rational discussion is the ability to use sound logic. You fail at every attempt to demonstrate that you understand logic, on any level. I watched with curiousity your discussion with others of your atheist persuasion on "fun with fundies", and even your comrades recognize this obvious fact.
Unsu...it is rather simple. I have provided more than ample evidence that the U.S. is a generic Christian nation in the sense that our peoples, our institutions and our values are distinctly christian. Our institutions are based upon the biblical view of man as opposed to the pagan view of man for example. I did not say we are or ever were a theocracy. In support of my contention I have provided the testimonies of at least 2 supreme court justices, one appointed by our first president and both lived within the lifetime of the founders themselves. Court cases were offered as well as the testimony of the founders themselves. I have demonstrated this also by the actions of our founders themselves in showing favortism toward the Christian religion. I have shown that most of the founders were Christians and none were atheists (note: GW whom Grim calls an atheist, chose to be sworn in on the bible and kissed it after his swearing in!). I have shown that even those who are called deists were in fact more closely associated to Christian views and values than any atheist I am aware of today.
In rebuttal, my opponents have cried "foul", citing no evidence for the position that this is a secular nation. No evidence was cited demonstrating that this is a "secular nation" as not one founder ever claimed such a thing. The only contrary evidence against the sweeping tide of proof that this is a Christian nation was offered by Grim in regards to the treaty of tripoli. He did not bother to continue the defense of this when I countered that article 11 was not in the arabic version, therefore invalid. Nor did he counter the obvious reason for this treaty, an attempt to pacate the muslims by offering the fact that we were not a christian nation in the sense of a theocracy. And they had no reason to fear any that we would be going on any crusades.
You have offered absolutely nothing at all to this discussion. My guess is that it is because you are really in over your head here. You know little or nothing about American history, the mayflower compact, the writings of John Locke or our founders. You simply have chosen to believe a certain way in spite of all evidence to the contrary. This does not surprise me, you are an atheist after all. Why would anyone expect you to be reasonable or rational. Rather than admit to the facts of history, you simply ignore them. You claim that all evidence offered must be fallacious because "you know" that it cannot be true. This is not a form of debate or rational argumentation. It is no argument at all.
Grim is a liar and a despicable person because he knows that what he is saying is not true, yet he says it anyway. You on the other hand, probably believe that you are right, yet are logically flawed and incapable of sound reasoning skills.
Unsu...I fully understand the question and have answered it with supporting documentation including the views of a supreme court justice, court cases, etc.. You have offered nothing other than your opinion to the contrary. Don't try to play cat and mouse with me. You have no argument, and you know it.
Unsu...***********You are a resident of GB and therefore cannot be expected to know anything about American History. ************
What the hell does that mean?
He is a citizen of country X so he can't be expected to have knowledge and information about Country Y??
Are you out of your fucking mind?
It it really your contention that unless some one lives in the USA they are absolutely unable to have any knowledge about it~!~~?
What the bloody fucking Christ does living here have to do with it?
I know plenty of people who live here and fat too many of them are as ignorant about their own nation as frogs in a pond.
Unsu...Cookies are not allowed in my nutritional program currently so, no thanks. What I want, is something other than your ignorant opinions. I have offered the testimony of founders, supreme court justices and the documents of our founding. I have offered the actions of the founders, which includes the authorization of the printing and decimination of bibles, the authorization of a chaplain, the placing of biblical verses all over town, including the 10 commandments hung over the supreme court (have you ever been to DC?). Nothing in the establishment clause refutes my position and even Jefferson himself, who did not write it, agrees with me; nor does the obscure treaty of tripoli outweigh the overwhelming evidence I have provided.
None of the founders you mentioned were atheists. Other than Paine, there are no founders that would not find your views as resprehensible as do I, and this would include those "deists" mentioned. Jefferson was a regular church attender as was Franklin. To all that I have offered, here is more:
Constitutional law professor Edward Mansfield (1801-1880) :
In every country, the morals of a people – whatever they may be – take their form
and spirit from their religion. For example, the marriage of brothers and sisters
was permitted among the Egyptians because such had been the precedent set by
their gods, Isis and Osiris. So, too, the classic nations celebrated the drunken rites
of Bacchus. Thus, too, the Turk has become lazy and inert because dependent
upon Fate, as taught by the Koran. And when in recent times there arose a nation
[i.e., France] whose philosophers [e.g. Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot, Helvetius,
etc.] discovered there was no God and no religion, the nation was thrown into that
dismal case in which there was no law and no morals. . . . In the United States,
Christianity is the original, spontaneous, and national religion.
Edward Mansfield, American Education, Its Principle and Elements (New York: A. S. Barnes & Co.,
1851), p. 43.
Founding Father and U. S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall
[W]ith us, Christianity and religion are identified. It would be strange,
indeed, if with such a people our institutions did not presuppose
Christianity and did not often refer to it and exhibit relations with it.
John Marshall, The Papers of John Marshall, Charles Hobson, editor (Chapel Hill: University of
North Carolina Press, 2006), Vol. XII, p. 278, to Rev. Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833.
Of course, none of these founders no as much as a jackass atheist brit with his atheist sidekick, but we will keep trying. Here are some of the Presidents who have acknowledged our Christian nation:
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the
general principles of Christianity. JOHN ADAMS
The teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic
and social life that it would be literally….impossible for us to figure to ourselves
what that life would be if these teaching were removed. TEDDY ROOSEVELT
America was born a Christian nation – America was born to exemplify that
devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations
of Holy Scripture. WOODROW WILSON
American life is builded, and can alone survive, upon . . . [the] fundamental
philosophy announced by the Savior nineteen centuries ago. 16 HERBERT HOOVER
This is a Christian Nation. HARRY TRUMAN
Let us remember that as a Christian nation . . . we have a charge and a destiny.
To deny we are a Christian nation is to be A) willfully ignorant B) decietful. You have conspicuously avoided defining what you mean by Christian nation when you state we are not one, while I have been very direct and clear regarding it. As I said before, you have always taken the stance of "I don't believe it" regardless of the evidence before you. You don't give a rats behind about the truth and never have. You are a sniveling cowardly atheist fool, and as far as I can tell, that is what you will always be. At least on this stupid tribe, you can get some respect, as fools like you abound.
Unsu...no, this is not my logic, but more of your illogic. By my logic, if muslims build a hospital, staff it with muslims, declare it to be a muslim hospital but still accept patients from other ethnic groups, it is still a muslim hospital, just as Jewish Hospitals and Baptist Hospitals do today.....
It wouldn't be a Muslim hospital, it would just be a hospital. That a person builds or makes something, even a nation, doesn't mean that thing is whatever they are and as we've covered, many were what would be atheists today or were deists then, though they were products of their times nonetheless.
Unsu..."It wouldn't be a Muslim hospital, it would just be a hospital."
arguing which is black still eh? Do they not have Jewish, Baptist or Catholic hospitals in the UK?
"That a person builds or makes something, even a nation, doesn't mean that thing is whatever they are and as we've covered, many were what would be atheists today or were deists then, though they were products of their times nonetheless."
Yet many learned people who have more knowledge of the issue that either you or I, who are closer in proximity to these events, state exactly has I have, that this is a Christian nation. I think it is time you lay your sword down on this issue and start investigating what this means, rather than trying to refute the irrefutable. Perhaps we may find some common ground there.....
No, we have a national health service, regardless, if a Jewish team of builders built a catholic hospital building, by your logic it would have to be a synagogue.
Nobody with any sense claims this to be a Christian nation, its secular nature is well established in law, history and the personal outlooks of its founders as well as legal precedent set since.
It is a nation with Christians in it. Not a Christian nation.
Unsu...that is not my argument. If a jewish team built a hospital which included a synogogue and put verses on the walls regarding jewish law and advanced principles of medical treatment which are uniquely Jewish then it can be rightly called a Jewish Hospital (by way of example). America is a Christian nation not just because it was founded by Christians, but because it was founded on Christian principles including the Christian belief of the equality of the individual, the Christian view of property, the Christian view of liberty etc. etc etc.. You need to listen more carefully to the argument being advanced.
We are not a Christian nation in the sense that we are an established Church state! No, No, No. This seems to be how you are defining "Christian nation", although you steadfastly refuse to define your terms.
"Nobody with any sense claims this to be a Christian nation"
this is a fallacy. Many people with great sense, with greater positions of influence and with closer proximity to the events in question have in fact stated this very thing.
"its secular nature is well established in law, history and the personal outlooks of its founders as well as legal precedent set since."
No founder anywhere ever made or implied the claim that this is a secular nation, no one. As for American history, we are a product of dissenting Christians who escaped religious persecution in Great Britian. Pilgrims and Puritans. Read the mayflower compact and early colonial history as you have no idea what you are talking about. Your learning consists of a few bullet points for "nobeliefs.com" or some such web site, not history. As to the outlooks of the founders, they speak quite eloquently, and I have quoted many of them. You were wrong by calling them deists and atheists, you were wrong for calling them secularists, and I have documented all of this. I have offered legal precendent which confirms our Christian nation. So by what logic can you now deny this precedent?
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.>>"America is a Christian nation not just because it was founded by Christians, but because it was founded on Christian principles including the Christian belief of the equality of the individual, the Christian view of property, the Christian view of liberty etc. etc etc.."<<
It sounds to me as if you take any idea that you happen to like and arbitrarily define it as "Christian". All being Christian really means is that you believe God lived as a man, was hung on a cross, and thereby magically "saved" us from something or other. Christ simply did not teach the Western principles you admire about liberty, equality etc. These were ideas that developed in formerly Christian nations after they rebelled against the Christianity of their forefathers; that of the Catholic Church, which should be considered "true" Christianity, as it dominated the Western world for over a thousand years. If we followed the words of the pope, I believe we could be considered a "Christian Nation". Is that what you want, Dan?
The United States was founded as a nation where people of a multitude of beliefs and faiths, including those with no beliefs could live freely and in peace. Certainly most of the founders were Christians, but they chose to not impose their beliefs upon the new nation. I can see that your sorely regret that, Dan, but those who truly love freedom have no regrets about that. If you can find the words Jesus Christ in our constitution, you might have a case. I can assure you that "Muslim nations" mention Muhammad and Allah over and over in the documents they abide by to rule their countries. Do you really want America to be a "Christian Nation" like Iran is a "Muslim nation"?
Let us give our thanks that we are not a "Christian Nation", but a free country where people of any faith, or non-faith can prosper.
Unsu...>>"America is a Christian nation not just because it was founded by Christians, but because it was founded on Christian principles including the Christian belief of the equality of the individual, the Christian view of property, the Christian view of liberty etc. etc etc.."<<
Rene: It sounds to me as if you take any idea that you happen to like and arbitrarily define it as "Christian". All being Christian really means is that you believe God lived as a man, was hung on a cross, and thereby magically "saved" us from something or other.
and you, an apostate catholic and atheist would naturally be an expert on all things related to Christianity.
"Christ simply did not teach the Western principles you admire about liberty, equality etc."
These were ideas that developed in formerly Christian nations after they rebelled against the Christianity of their forefathers; that of the Catholic Church"
Actually no, historically, you see the outworking of biblical principles in the pre catholic Church who were persecuted by the Romans. This is acknowledged even by this atheist:
And by this Christian:
""Liberty has not subsisted outside of Christianity." Lord Acton
The most liberating political force in the history of mankind has been Christianity (Jn. 8:36). Christianity branched from the trunk of godly Old Testament Hebrew religion, and the ancient Hebrew commonwealth (before the era of the kings [1 Sam. 8]) was arguably the most libertarian society in the history of mankind. Christianity inherited from Old Testament faith the bedrock belief in the sovereign, transcendent God Who stands above and judges all humanity, including its systems of civil government. The political order is never ultimate.
The Ancient World
Christianity shattered the unity of the ancient, pagan world. The source of that unity was the state, usually identified with society itself, at the head of which was a great political ruler, a king or emperor, thought to be a god or god-like. The unity of the ancient, pagan world consisted of the divinization of the temporal order in the form of the state.
Christianity recognized "another king" (Ac. 17:7). While by no means anarchists, the early Christians recognized that no earthly authority, especially political authority, could be ultimate. God¹s authority is ultimate. (note: Not even atheist world leaders such as Stalin and Mao)
In clarifying orthodox Christology (the doctrine of Jesus Christ), the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451) laid the foundation of Western liberty. Jesus Christ alone is both divine and human, fully God and fully Man, the unique link between heaven and earth. He is the only divine-human Mediator. This decision dramatically repudiated every divinization of the temporal order. No state, no church, no family, no man could be God or God-like. (Note: not even an individual atheist who thinks he is a "god" unto himself)
This recognition set patristic Christianity on a collision course with classical politics. Early Christians were savagely persecuted not because they worshipped Jesus Christ, but because they refused to worship the Roman emperor. Polytheistic societies encourage the worship of deities. What they resist is the exclusion of all deities, particularly the state, except the true Deity, the God of the Bible."
"which should be considered "true" Christianity, as it dominated the Western world for over a thousand years. If we followed the words of the pope, I believe we could be considered a "Christian Nation". Is that what you want, Dan?"
This statement is illogical. What if scientology comes to dominate the world for a millenium and one year and calls it self "christianity"? By your reasoning they are now "the true christianity". Sorry, this is more of your laughable logic. True Christianity must subscribe to the teachings of Jesus and the new testament Church. Where in the new testament do you read anything about Popes, cardinals, nuns, friars, Jesuits, sinless perfection of Mary, infant baptist for original sin, transubstantiation, indulgances, purgatory, papal infallability and a large number of other catholic inventions? No where! So no, catholocism has some things in common with Christianity but in its core believes it is at odds with the essential teaching of the Christian faith.
If we followed the words of the Popes of the past, we would be an established catholic theocracy. I have never argued anywhere for such an animal as you are well aware if you have been reading along.
"The United States was founded as a nation where people of a multitude of beliefs and faiths, including those with no beliefs could live freely and in peace."
True, but in no way does this statement refute the fact that the U.S. is a Christian nation unless you can prove that it is impossible to be a Christian nation and still allow religious freedom. Can you Rene?
"Certainly most of the founders were Christians, but they chose to not impose their beliefs upon the new nation."
If by "not imposed" you mean that no one was required to subscribe to the christian faith, true, but that is not what is meant by "Christian nation" so again, irrelevent to this discussion.
"I can see that your sorely regret that, Dan"
You can see no such thing. I fully endorse it as I don't want any theocracy in any form! I am fully content living in a Christian nation where religious freedom is granted to all and no Church state will ever be allowed.
"but those who truly love freedom have no regrets about that. If you can find the words Jesus Christ in our constitution, you might have a case."
If by "words of Jesus" we understand the principles of his teachings then they are everywhere appearant in our founding documents. This has been demonstrated by me and countless others time and again.
"Let us look forward to the time when we can take the flag of our country and nail it below the Cross, and there let it wave as it waved in the olden times, and let us gather around it an inscribed for our motto: "Liberty and Union, one and inseparable, now and forever," and exclaim, Christ first, our country next!" -- Andrew Johnson
" I can assure you that "Muslim nations" mention Muhammad and Allah over and over in the documents they abide by to rule their countries. Do you really want America to be a "Christian Nation" like Iran is a "Muslim nation"? "
No I do not. This is the problem with all of our discussions Rene. You refuse to acknowledge my clear statements but rather offer only distortions of them time and again. This has led me to believe that you are fundamentally a dishonest man.
"Let us give our thanks that we are not a "Christian Nation", but a free country where people of any faith, or non-faith can prosper."
Who does an atheist give thanks to? Thank Heaven? Thank God? Thank the founders? If you thank the founders you will then have to accept the founders conclusions which are that we are a Christian nation and not a pagan nation (atheist or false deity worshiper). Lets give thanks that we are and have always been a Christian Nation, as is so easily proven and can only be denied by twisting and distorting both history and jurisprudence.
Unsu...to conclude this thread, what you see here is the challenge of debating an issue when the parties involved will not agree to the definitions. My opponents here have been arguing primarily that we are not a "theocracy" and I have been arguing that we are a Christian nation. How are we to define Christian Nation? By Christian Nation are we arguing, as Grim states, that our nation as an entity has been baptised and assented to the Gospel Of Jesus? (This is how Grim dancings around the issue.). I have stated that by "Christian nation" we mean the following:
1) It was and is a nation predominately made up of Christians
2) It's institutions and founding documents are Christian in character and philosophy
3) It's founders were overwhelmingly Christian
I like to use the phrase "generic Christian nation" to distinguish our union form an established theocracy of some particular denomination such as catholic, presbyterian, methodist or baptist. I have, I feel, properly and adequately defended my definition of the term Christian Nation. While my opponents have chosen the route of denying my definition, going with another, and thus refuting a straw man. Why? Because it is much easier than refuting the truth that we are a Christian Nation; a fact attested to by numerous lines of evidence and refuted (poorly and inadequately), by only one, the Treaty of Tripoli.
Unsu...*************to conclude this thread***************
The only thing you are capable of concluding by fiat is your participation.
***********what you see here is the challenge of debating an issue when the parties involved will not agree to the definitions.*********
Your definitions have struck me as unrealistically dogmatic.
************My opponents here have been arguing primarily that we are not a "theocracy" and I have been arguing that we are a Christian nation.***********
What do you mean by "Christian"?
Who the fuck is "we"?
What you might possibly be able to say with some confidence and authority is that you and the majority of people whom you know tend to think a certain way. Your ability to be an authoritative source on anything beyond that is - non existent .
Unsu..."What you might possibly be able to say with some confidence and authority is that you and the majority of people whom you know tend to think a certain way. Your ability to be an authoritative source on anything beyond that is - non existent . "
You are a piece of work Mr. Conservative atheist. Go back and read my posts and you will soon discover that I did not make my arguments on my own authority but on the testimony of expert witnesses.
>>"I have stated that by "Christian nation" we mean the following:
1) It was and is a nation predominately made up of Christians
2) It's institutions and founding documents are Christian in character and philosophy
3) It's founders were overwhelmingly Christian"<<
I think everyone basically agrees with part one and three of your definition, although certainly many of the most prominent founders where "deists".
If you want to call the United states a "Christian Nation' based on this, there is really no real argument, but what is generally the motive for labeling the USA a "Christian Nation"? What I have observed is that people who say this want to push their particular view of Christianity into our laws and use the "Christian Nation" gambit as a way of establishing precedent. Pushing religious views into our laws is clearly contrary to our "institutions and founding documents" and this has been established over and over in our courts. The reason our courts have and continue to disallow this is because the second part of your definition is not correct and we are not a Christian nation; the founding documents are not Christian in character or philosophy, as far as I can tell (although I am not even sure what this is supposed to mean). Rather the founding documents simply describe a state that will not be ruled by a king or emperor and will impose no religion on the people, allowing completely free choice in this regard.
If our nation is in fact a "Christian Nation" every school child should be required to learn the bible, to better understand the basis for our laws. The opposite is in fact true, as the bible cannot be taught in public schools. The simple fact is that there is nothing in our laws that relates to the bible in any way. After the fall of Rome, most European nations were "Christian Nations" with Christian churches intimately intertwined with the government and laws of these countries. The American and French revolutions began the change away from this type of nation. It is truly sad that there are some Americans that don't understand what we have managed to escape from, longing for a return the marriage of religion and government like we see in the Islamic countries. If they have their way, freedom as we know it will certainly end.
Unsu..."I think everyone basically agrees with part one and three of your definition, although certainly many of the most prominent founders where "deists". "
Actually, this is false. A great many were theists and those few who were deists where nothing similar to the way many atheists like to characterize them. For example, Ben Franklin was a deist, yet he called for prayer in the chambers of the constitutional convention based upon a God who notices when a sparrow falls to the earth. This doesn't sound like a first cause impersonal God but rather the God of scripture! Thomas Jefferson, a champion of many Christ haters, stated that he was "a Christian" in plain terms in terms of the moral precepts and superior philosophy offered in the bible alone. What is conspicuously absent in among our founders were atheists. Of course, had America consisted of a bunch of atheists back then we would not have been founded at all as a free country based upon principles of equality, freedom, and individual rights. These principles are derived directly from the bible and are at odds with paganism, from whence atheism arose.
"If you want to call the United states a "Christian Nation' based on this, there is really no real argument,"
There really is no argument Rene, but a lot of folks seem to feel there is.
"but what is generally the motive for labeling the USA a "Christian Nation"? What I have observed is that people who say this want to push their particular view of Christianity into our laws and use the "Christian Nation" gambit as a way of establishing precedent. Pushing religious views into our laws is clearly contrary to our "institutions and founding documents" and this has been established over and over in our courts."
I think you have this backwards. Christianity is not trying to push a new agenda Rene, they are trying to preserve the historic agenda. Prayer was not removed from our public schools by our founders, it was removed by atheists. Nor was the public expression of religion frowned upon by our founders, this is a new secular agenda of the left. Tolerance towards those we disagree with is a Christian concept, not a concept of secularism or atheism. Our founders did not want a theocracy, nor did they ever envision a secular humanist state. Our laws are based in principle on Christianity, but not directly upon the Laws of Moses specifically. This has been a great country for all people to live in freedom, atheist, pagan, christian, jew and muslim, BECAUSE of the fact it is a christian nation. We want to keep it that way. However if we continue the march toward secularism, we will loose everything our founders and soldeirs have fought and died for.
"The reason our courts have and continue to disallow this is because the second part of your definition is not correct and we are not a Christian nation; the founding documents are not Christian in character or philosophy, as far as I can tell (although I am not even sure what this is supposed to mean)."
You are incorrect here and in need of a history lesson. If your parochial school education was as deficient as my public one, I can understand why you don't get it. But our founding documents do exhibit in every way our Christian character. The declaration of independence is crystal clear that our individual unalienable rights are based upon the fact that we were "Created equal" in worth before God. This is again, a western Christian concept. The bill of rights which is attached to the constitution also is based squarely upon christian belief's in regards to religion, self defense etc.. These truths have been recognized many times by scholars. You scoffed when I mentioned this before, but the very fact that American has the first written constitution in the history of the world demonstrates its Christian nature in that God formed contracts with man (old and new testaments) and now we formed our first written constitution between government and man in like manner.
The separation of powers perscribed by our constitution comes from the founders Christian faith in the sinfulness of man. This led to a dual government (state and federal) as well.
"If our nation is in fact a "Christian Nation" every school child should be required to learn the bible, to better understand the basis for our laws."
every school child should learn the bible as it is unquestionably the most important work of human history. All school children were once required to learn the bible. So how do you feel that Christians are trying to make American into something other than what it has always been? Learning about the bible is not forcing one to accepts its religion. A person who doesn't understand the bible is ignorant and uneducated, at least this is what our founders believed.
"The opposite is in fact true, as the bible cannot be taught in public schools. The simple fact is that there is nothing in our laws that relates to the bible in any way. After the fall of Rome, most European nations were "Christian Nations" with Christian churches intimately intertwined with the government and laws of these countries."
"I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."
- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
"So great is my veneration for the Bible, that the earlier my children begin to read it the more confident will be my hopes that they will prove useful citizens to their country and respectable members of society."
- John Quincy Adams (1767-1848), 6th President of the United States.
"The general diffusion of the Bible is the most effectual way to civilize and humanize mankind ; to purify and exalt the general system of public morals ; to give efficacy to the just precepts of international and municipal law ; to enforce the observance of prudence, temperance, justice and fortitude ; and to improve all the relations of social and domestic life."
- James Kent (1763-1847), American legal scholar.
"Hold fast to the Bible as the sheet-anchor of your liberties ; write its precepts in your hearts, and practice them in your lives. To the influence of this book we are indebted for all the progress made in true civilization, and to this we must look as our guide in the future."
- Ulysses S. Grant (1822-1885), 18th President of the United States.
"That Book, sir, is the rock on which our republic rests."
- Andrew Jackson (1767-1845), 7th President of the United States.
They were Christian states, there is a difference. And yes, the bible can be taught in school. And a study of law would quickly demonstrate that you are wrong about the influence of our laws with the bible.
"The American and French revolutions began the change away from this type of nation."
The american and french revolutions were completely different animals Rene. The French went your way, the Americans mine and you and I have been greatly blessed to have been born in America.
"It is truly sad that there are some Americans that don't understand what we have managed to escape from, longing for a return the marriage of religion and government like we see in the Islamic countries. If they have their way, freedom as we know it will certainly end."
I know of only one group who "longs for this", and that is the muslims. Perhaps the Catholics, but no protestant wants any such thing! You are confusing theocracy with Christian nation. And there is a world of difference between the two.