I have heard the moderator of this tribe speak often of the largest organ of the body - our skin; our shell (hopefully, I'm quoting her correctly).
That being true - the sensations that we feel from being touched; kissed; canned; bite - those things that get us high - run endorphins off the charts - push our limits - make us beg for more, please more.....
When does this chemical change cross the line - can we get addicted (as suggested in another tribe)?
What are your feelings about addiction? Is this "high" that we feel because of the sensations on our skin a good addiction? Does it differ between Tops and bottoms? What about submission? What if we want it more and more? Can it be unhealthy?
Thoughts?
That being true - the sensations that we feel from being touched; kissed; canned; bite - those things that get us high - run endorphins off the charts - push our limits - make us beg for more, please more.....
When does this chemical change cross the line - can we get addicted (as suggested in another tribe)?
What are your feelings about addiction? Is this "high" that we feel because of the sensations on our skin a good addiction? Does it differ between Tops and bottoms? What about submission? What if we want it more and more? Can it be unhealthy?
Thoughts?
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Re: Addiction
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 11:18 PMSeems to me that people can get "addicted" to anything in at least a psychological sense. Physcial addiction doesn't typically happen except for chemical ingestions.
The only way I could see it being a problem is if "addiction" to BDSM or anything else for that matter leads to signficiant personal distress and/or conflicts with financial/work/interpersonal/etc duties. Or leads one to take unreasonable risks. The definition of "reasonable risks," beyond which someone is taking it too far for health and safety, will of course vary from person to person.
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 4:00 AMI agree with Alan. It's kind of like people who have OCD. I'd venture to say that a majority of people display some potential sign of OCD (ritualistic repetition of certain actions for example), but it's not until it prevents someone from living their everyday life that it becomes an issue.
I guess potential addiction to BDSM is the same way. -
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 8:21 AMI seem to always have one area of my life , generally socially /artistically based, that becomes an addiction. Or maybe it it just the thing that my life is focussed on, which feels like an addiction because my entire being is focussed on the next time that particular event happens, and each time I have moved on toward another focus, or suddenly lose the ability or priveledge or momentum or inspiration, I have to go through a kind of withdrawal process.
When I gave up the Grateful Dead I started referring to myself as a "recovering Deadhead" and peple would say "oh, you're a Wharf Rat." I'd have to explain that no I wasn't a Deadhead recovering from substance abuse but actually from Grateful Dead abuse, because after several years it became a habit I had to feed to the expense of anything else, like holding down a job, and I wasn't getting the endorphin high I used to get for various reasons. Its like getting addicted to a person, suddenly the addiction becomes more important than the relationship itself.
Just seems like anything that makes us feel good is open to abuse. When it changes from "because I enjoy it" to "because I need it" then its time to take a good hard Look at it. Which in my case, generally takes about two years to go from starting to feel that "this really isn't fun anymore" to actually walking away from it. And then I usually have to make it into some kind of messy breakup to actually be able to take that walk.
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 12:42 PMFrom what I have read about neurochemistry and brain structure I believe it is possible to become physically addicted to the rush of chemicals that are experienced by a bottom engaged in pain play. True, your body is producing the chemicals which is likely a much more healthy alternative than anything you would ingest, it's all about what receptor sites you are activating in your brain.
There is a term called neuroplasticity which simply put is that even the adult brain can learn new connections and pathways. Someone who is blinded later in life and learns braille for example actually grows new nerve connections in the parts of the brain that control the fingers they "read" with.
If you read some of the journal articles about endorphins and pain in sites that specialize in talking about people with chronic pain you will discover lots of interesting material. There isn't just one endorphin, but many that are similar chemically that affect the brain in slightly different ways. Nicotine releases one particular combinations in the brain, cocaine something similar but slightly different, heroin also causes the release of certain chemicals in the brain. All of them have similar actions on the brain and all of them over time make the receptor sites they impact more tolerant of interaction. Over time you require stronger dosage to get the same impact.
While I am no neurochemist or medical professional for that matter, what I have read about the endorphins released from the bodies response to pain are some of the same ones that your body releases when you smoke, snort cocaine, etc. To be fair, people who exercise habitually and receive a "runners high" are experiencing some of the same thing. How addictive something is to a particular person and how harmful it is really depends on the person and the chemical. Medical grade nicotine for example is rather harmless if you don't have a heart condition, but the tar in cigarettes is terribly hard on the human body. You also don't hear about marathon runners going into therapy for being addicted to exercise but watch what happens to them if you don't let them exercise for a week.
Until we start seeing functional MRI's and blood workups on people in the act of BDSM play we will never really know exactly what is happening or how addictive these activities are or if there are any long term effects.
On a personal note I believe finding myself involved in these types of activities by no accident. Since I was a teenager-preteen I have always been into adventure sports and anything that would cause a large release of endorphins. I still jump out of planes, fly hang gliders, drive too fast, etc. I didn't end up here because I have a closet full of black clothes, go to Burning Man every year or listen to goth-metal music. As a matter of fact I have more suits in my closet than I will ever have "play" clothes.
On a very personal note, what made me dig for all this information was because a very close friend confronted me after I was spending a very large portion of my time in these kinds of activities and she thought I was getting out of control. After stepping back and getting some perspective I dug into this topic as far as my 1 college chemistry class background would allow. I still love to play, and I still engage in adventure sports. What has changed is I developed an appreciation of the power of what we do, and a healthy respect for how it can influence my behavior. I choose to play because it is so enjoyable, and it seems like a much better and ultimately safer activity than buying a motorcycle to race around Skyline.
A great place to start reading:
Owners manual for the brain - Howard
Evolve your brain - Dispenza
Train your mind, Change your brain - Begley
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 1:24 PM"Until we start seeing functional MRI's and blood workups on people in the act of BDSM play''
To some people this would Be and act of BDSM play!
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Addiction vs Balance
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 2:41 PMBlueEyzz-very impressive.
Interesting - I have some of the same background in "risk" activities tho can't say I would EVER jump out of a perfectly good plane. I can take enough flying lessons riding that horse!
That said, I appreciate your information. You said "How addictive something is to a particular person and how harmful it is really depends on the person and the chemical. "
I have noticed that people give up one "addiction" for another (sometimes more acceptable) addiction. Like giving up alcohol for the Topping high or cocaine for a shopping high. Like you said, I guess it depends on the person and the chemical.
The challenge seems to be balance - creating balance while enjoying the endorphin blast! -
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Unsu...
Re: Addiction vs Balance
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 4:04 PMBlue Eyes has an interesting perspective indeed! How are ya?
As for me, I do not play for the rush. I do not play with the hope that I will go into a top space. As a Top, I play for the interaction with the person I am playing with and the pure enjoyment of being intimately involved with another for the time we are interacting. When I actually DO bottom, it is a very personal thing and whether or not I am bound to get a rush out of it not paramount to me playing...again...it is the always the interaction that whets my whistle.
Addiction?
Desire?
Want?
Preference?
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Re: Addiction vs Balance
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 9:37 PMI believe you are correct in the idea that people trade one stimulation - addiction - pursuit for another. In my own case being able to reconnect through flying fast or other activities where my brain perceives danger actually reduces my craving to engage in other activities. While not the same, for me it helps keep me "connected" and my head clear.
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 4:31 PMInteresting and well thought out post from Blue Eyes. It does bring up an important thought; what we call psychological addiction is in truth a neurochemical process so it does have a physical component.
There is however a distinction in medical circles between psychological addiction (compulsive drug/experience seeking behavior which is of course driven by the physical process of neurotransmitter modulation) and physiologic dependence (physical signs and symptoms that occur when the drug/experience is suddenly withdrawn). When long time users or alcohol or some sedatives stop they may experience very severe physical side effects including headache, nausea, irritability, hallucinations, and potentially life-threatening seizures. While a BDSM or exercise "addict" mght keenly feel the lack of their favored activity they are unlikely to develop physical signs of withdrawal that constitute physiologic dependence.
I'll also add that beyond its' effects in the brain, nicotine is a stimulant that tends to raise blood pressure and can cause cardiovascular damage and may be lethal in big big doses. The tar is no picnic either but nicotine is a bad actor too. -
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 8:20 PMInteresting post regarding the addictive nature of our specific type of play. As one with an addictive personality I have a fair amount of experience, primarily with substance abuse. Having recovered from alcohol abuse some 21 years ago I know all too well the physical and psychological effects an addiction carries with it. Add cigarettes to the mix and you have a whole host of additional issues, not to mention just how important a part nicotine plays in a smoker's life. We seem to live in an addicted world...food, chemicals, sex, computer games, the list can go on and on and is seemingly endless. How do we know what’s addictive and what’s not. For me I have to take a look at the impact it has on my life and if certain behaviors are destructive and thus cause my life to become unmanageable.
When I entered the scene I came in as a bottom and took to it like a junkie to a bag of dope. It brought my senses to life, made me feel good. The headspace I went into was unlike anything I had experience before. A high of highs and the landing was a smooth one. There were no hangovers, no regrets, I didn’t avoid my daily responsibilities, hide from bill collectors, and had comfort in the knowledge that what I was doing was not illegal, immoral or unethical AND it felt good. In other words, my life did not become unmanageable.
Since entering the scene I have shifted to the top end and the headspace is different but nonetheless exciting for me. I craved then and still crave to play. I look forward to each and every encounter with a nervous anticipation and excitement.
The other night I attended Sedusa’s Garden and since I’m a man, was considered submissive. Needless to say to those who know me, I was a bit of a brat but I did experience some of the sensations that I used to find so alluring and arousing. I was drawn back in. The sensations were like returning to familiar territory, a reunion of sorts and they have me wanting more. It had been awhile and after all…I am a switch.
So, am I addicted to the endorphins, to the excitement, to the thrill? Who knows and truth be told I really don’t care. My life is perfectly manageable; I am not causing harm to anyone including myself. It feels really good to top and to bottom and I am providing pleasure and satisfaction to my play partners, all without harming anyone.
So why not use our bodies as they were intended? We were given nerve receptors, emotions, the ability to produce endorphins, and creative minds. There are far worse things we could be doing.
Okay, who wants to top me?
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:26 PMWell frankly, in order to top you, you would HAVE to be gagged first! You were a total brat, but I'd be happy to beat the crap out of you and cure you of that ;-)
Oh damn it, now I have to hit the "submit" button. -
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Especially for Michelle
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 2:17 PMI dusted off my brat face and wore it especially for you. What better way to bring out the evil sadist we all know resides in you. BTW, my nipples still ache…for you! -
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Re: Especially for Michelle
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 7:19 PMYou got away EASY mister! Just wait till I get my hands on those nipples again while your hands are tied behind your back ;-) -
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Re: Especially for Michelle
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 8:53 PMJust as I always suspected. Under that soft and beautiful exterior beats the heart of a very mean and sadistic woman.
And after how gentle I've always been with you.
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After some thought
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 2:17 PMThanks again for posting everyone. I reread your post BlueEyzz - and ordered the books from the library - more research. I have been marinating on most of what has been said (leaving out the gaggy parts).
Some say too much play could be addictive, some say it's all good. One post read:
"My life is perfectly manageable; I am not causing harm to anyone including myself. It feels really good "
I was thinking about the guy who comes home every night, has a couple of cocktails, but gets up to work every morning, supporting his family - just isn't weak enough to crash and burn. Problem? That's alcohol - what about sex? What about the woman who sleeps with most guys? Even her good girlfriends new lover? Problem?
Isn't addiction about numbing out - stuffing something down - like in overeaters? Noone's getting hurt by an overeater? But isn't it a problem?
More thoughts? (I'm still working thru the feelings I have about all this and would appreciate your input)
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Re: Addiction
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:31 PMI'm not a doctor, but my understanding is that technically, no. Addition is not possible.
Dependency might be possible, but it would be psychological dependency. -
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Re: Addiction
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 8:11 AM<<<I'm not a doctor, but my understanding is that technically, no. Addition is not possible>>>
Sure it is! 2+2=4 -
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Re: Addiction
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 8:48 AMSomebody's _fingers_ need to be gagged!
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Re: Addiction
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 8:31 PMFirst off GREAT topic! I read all the responses and I have to say that there are some very interesting points made. Very insightful comments. Addiction and it's definition is becoming more skewed. Largely due to drug and alcohol abuse and their treatment. There are now different types of addiction. Mainly a physical type of addiction which may result in death if the dependent substance is suddenly removed and a psychological addiction where removal of a substance may result in depression or other mood swings.
In this question you asked, many people have tied in endorphins to the answer. This may be a source of some people's addiction. But endorphins can be obtained through several means as many people here have already mentioned. The question you asked was specific to BDSM. Even saying that BDSM can be psychologically addicting is a very general answer. Essentially, saying that simply means that the mind desires it and isn't happy without it. So by newer definitions of the word addiction; yes, it can be addicting and a person can become addicted to it. Whether or not a chemical dependency can be developed that may result in death if not satisfied remains to be seen other than through cause and effect. Lack of BDSM leads to depression, depression leads to suicide.
Interestingly enough, the definition given on dictionary.com is:
–noun
the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma.
State of being enslaved... Looks like it was written with BDSM in mind lol
