Cop Kills Young Handcuffed Black Man - see the video, come protest, wed. 1/7, 3-8pm Fruitvale BART

topic posted Wed, January 7, 2009 - 12:25 AM by 
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this is utterly outrageous! there was NO REASON for that cop to take his gun out! If you have any doubts about being outraged at this incident, watch the video again. this is RIDICULOUS!!!!

come join forces with the diversity that is oakland and protest this blatantly heartless murder.
for more info:
www.facebook.com/l.php
or www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8558825.php
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  • Ahhhh Oakland.

    Where were the riots when some little kid got shot taking a piano lesson? How about throwing
    some stones through some storefronts because we can't walk around town after dark and feel
    even remotely safe or get off the MacArthur BART after dusk without taking our lives into
    our hands? How about some people in East Oakland get their moxie up and set fire to some
    car that thumps by at two AM at 96dB?

    How many innocent people in this city get killed by some asshole with a gun and nobody notices?
    The cop shouldn't have pulled his gun, but you can't blame him if he feared that somebody in that
    group had one. He'll go to jail and he should, but this was pretty clearly a mistake that happened
    in a panic: the gun wasn't even pointed at the guy, from what I've read--it deflected off the pavement.

    The assholes that rolled me a few years ago holding a weapon to my throat? No mistake or panic
    there. They just felt entitled to do so, probably by being told they were victims of generations of
    "racial injustice" (you could tell by their $200 sneakers), just like these assholes that rioted a couple
    of nights ago. They're entitled to lawlessness, right? After all, they're the victims of injustice.
    • The rioters had no care for the reason of the protest. It was just another excuse to go out and raise hell. They acted like a bunch of animals and I really wish the cops would treat them appropriately.
      • You'll love this. Some little 'anarchist' shit stains vandalised the METER MAID station (bwahahaha!) in my South Berkeley neighborhood and were stupid enough to post about it on Indy Bay. I love the last set of comments: www.indybay.org/newsitems/...8560079.php
        • HA! Too funny! Someone had posted that they live in the 'hood and got them on videotape before they put their bandanas on and turned the footage over to the Berkeley police and they DELETED that post. Wow! Kinda like something The Man would do...censor free speech. God, what losers. I so hope they get caught.
          • you people are wretched. you're more worried about the destruction of private property than you are about the fact that black people in this country have to fear for their lives at the sight of a brown or blue suit - the same suit they are supposed to seek out to help them when they are in trouble. how the hell you gonna claim oakland when you don't even know what is going on in your own city? go on, gentrify the place! man i hate how white tribe is. fuck.
            • Amen, arize.

              Not a mention of the other 90% of the demonstration which was totally productive, inspiring and helping to push the issues to the front and forward.
              How many of you were there Wednesday? for whatever portion of the evening? I was there. As was Arize. And neither of us are down for folks' private property getting trashed, FYI.

              All this name-calling and cocksure, vitriolic, bullshit characterization at a distance makes me sick: smug little quotation marks around any term you don't like but can't actually critique, the lame broad brush of "Way to go protesters" ( who just wanna get on the news apparently), "lame-o", "shit stains", "animals", "assholes" ...

              Way to watch the yellow news on your asses and proclaim yourselves experts.

              Next time (and there is plenty coming up) come on out... wherever, however, ...pitch in maybe or just check it out.
              Just cut the crap.
              • Arize

                Why don't you read the FBI crime statistics and get back to us. Screaming racism just proves to everyone you're a simpleton.

                Same for you Groucho......

                pull out all the little code words, racist, gentrify etc........and you think you're automatically winning the debate.

                You're not even clever enough to join the conversation.
                • arize STARTED this conversation, glen. it was a call to protest a seriously suspicious killing of a citizen by a cop...not a call to riot.

                  sure, the splinter group of rioters acted atrociously and unfortunately drew attention away from the actual issue. but the same thing happened in this thread when the original topic was disregarded to focus on the rioting, not the protesting. groucho pointed out the difference between the protest and the riots, but his point obviously went way over your head.

                  what debate are YOU trying to win glen? because hurling insults just makes you seem like evolution left you behind.
            • "man i hate how white tribe is. fuck. "
              A) Don't be so racist.
              B) You're an idiot.
              C) You left no knowledge, facts or evidence to support any of you generalized claims.

              Black people in this country have to "fear" brown or blue suites? Did you like survey them? More generalized racism. You know a large number of OPD is black?
              Does this mean white people should fear them too?

              I think the only people that should fear them are the ones committing crimes, hanging out in grimy crime ridden alleys corners harassing people, ridding with guns on them, selling drugs on the corner and so on.
              If that happens to be a high percentage of blacks here in Oakland then yes, they better fucking fear the Police because my tax dollars go towards that fear. I support it.

              If I ever decide to bring kids into this fucked up world I would hope Oakland is a better place then it is today.

              However if you are doing nothing wrong, have a clean record, are cooperative and polite.... you have nothing to fear. Asshat. I hate your racism towards whites.

              p.s.
              you look pretty damn white yourself. Stop over compensating and trying so damn hard for whatever deep secrets you have.

              p.s.s.
              Do you hate how "white" Flickr is as well?
              flickr.com/photos/brook...612265375541/
              I don't think anyone is racist for rational thoughts you tool.

              p.s.s.s.
              Wash your hair you dirty hippy.
            • "you people are wretched. you're more worried about the destruction of private property than you are about the fact that black people"

              Why can't it be both? The Bart cop was irresponsible at best and should be punished.

              Nothing excuses the riotous behavior endangering innocent lives and destruction of property. To defend this at any level is just whack. Protest, but peacefully. The innocent people got up in that thing should not have to pay out of their pocketbooks or with their well being. To think otherwise is only seeing what you want to see.
          • as for that anarchist group.... I bet it's the gov.
            They want us to act up. They have been doing everything they can in our face. From suspended rights, spying, illegal wars and more more more.
            They are sitting back like what in the fuck. They don't try and stop us... How can we instill Martial Law if they don't uprise?

            So they start riots, and have radical groups to lead us.
            • Who are these fucked up white people that always descend on places like Oakland...?

              fucked up white people who come to Oakland from somewhere, and excuse the most abhorrent behavior possible. Gangbangin, sellin drugs, pimpin, murder..........awwww it ain't their fault..........they aren't white ..........they can't be expected to live like normal peoples.....

              I saw so many of these ignorant white people growin up in NOLA that I can spot them from a mile

              Who is the racist here..............?

              Gerry, as usual you make your point with an eloquence I don't have


              and yeah,

              Wash your hair dirty hippie..........
              • This thread is fantastic! I've never seen a better, more succint example of dehumanization and bigotry online anywhere. I'm going to use it as a case study.

                1. Original post topic: Call to protest the apparent execution-style killing of a young black man.
                2. Complaint about protesters damaging property.
                3. Agreement about wrongdoing by both cops and protesters.
                4. Projection with bigotry: "lame-o 'anarchist' who would probably have no problem benefiting from gov't aid" and assertion of hypocrisy.
                4. Dehumanizing namecalling: "dumbass."
                5. Projection with bigotry: "the victims mother begging for calm was a little much..............just be calm so I can git my 25 million dollars."
                5. Projection with bigotry (they "deserved" it): "I think the victims mother was probably absent much of the young victims life [...] mama........shut the fuck up" Also, startling lack of compassion here.
                6. Complaint that other similar incidents did not spur similar riots. Possible assertion of hypocrisy.
                6. Dehumanizing namecalling: "assholes."
                6. Accusation of racial entitlement: "assholes that rioted a couple of nights ago. They're entitled to lawlessness, right? After all, they're the victims of injustice."
                7. Dehumanizing namecalling: "bunch of animals."
                8. Dehumanizing namecalling: "shit stains."
                9. Ridicule.
                10. Objection by Original Poster.
                11. Support for objection by Original Poster.
                12. Random demonstration of lack of critical thinking skills plus a couple insults.
                13. Objection to post 12.
                14. Agreement with post 11.
                15. Various insults to Original Poster.
                15. Dehumanzing namecalling at Original Poster: "idiot" "asshat" "tool"
                15. Use of lack of personal cleanliness as a dehumanizing technique: "dirty hippy"
                16. Second use of lack of personal cleanliness as a dehumanizing technique: "dirty hippy"

                Check your heads.
                • BINGO!!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Tana and Druss.....

                    like I was sayin
                    • Come on glennzzz, you can do better. Godwin it. You know you want to.
                      • "Godwin it. You know you want to."
                        Nazis don't come up much in the Oaktown tribe political arguments. Our equivalent is "Walnut Creek" ("move to it, you pathetic liberal asswipe/ fascist prick"). Or sometimes, "Geese".
                        • To be fair Chris,

                          On another tribe we had discussed that the Godwin equivalent on Tribe was to immediately shut down any argument or discussion with the word racism. Hence the tribe equivalent of Nazi was Racism.

                          you see it in the Oaktown tribe and the Political tribe every day.

                          This string is a perfect example.........nearly every thread we have some white person proclaim that someone of color is a "victim or racism" or that this person of color should not be held responsible for their actions because of "racism", or that someone's views are reprehensible because they are "racist". No context needed, just throw it out there and the opposing party will immediately capitulate so as to avoid being labeled................."racist"
                          • "nearly every thread we have some white person proclaim that someone of color is a "victim or racism""

                            In this thread we have the Original Poster proclaiming that Oscar Grant was a victim of abuse of force, which resulted in several respondents making dehumanizing and racially stereotyping comments.

                            This, in turn, resulted in both agreement and objections, including mine that your remark "but the victims mother begging for calm was a little much..............just be calm so I can git my 25 million dollars" and "ummmm mama........shut the fuck up..." were devoid of compassion.

                            For the record, I don't want anyone to shut down the discussion or capitulate here. I think this thread works very well just as it is.
                            • have you guys read this garbage?
                              flickr.com/photos/brook...612265375541/
                              • I stayed outta this one.

                                when oakland burns to the ground, give me a ring.
                                • Drusilla,

                                  I believe that Arize and Groucho started us down the Godwin path........predictably.....

                                  If you didn't like my mama comment so be it..........but having lived in Oakland for quite sometime I have witnessed personally mothers wailing for their dead sons. Nearly always the dead sons..........and Nearly always dead sons who spent their days hanging out on their corner selling drugs, running the streets till 3 or 4 in the morning......because they didn't attend school.........until the streets.....again predictably.......claim their lives.

                                  And then the mother wails.......and blames the streets, the other thugs........or rarely the cops...........

                                  So who failed this child.........


                                  • The question of who failed "this child" seems apparent to me in the videos of the last few minutes of his life. But let me ask you a couple questions:

                                    Question 1: Oscar Grant was a working man - a butcher's apprentice, not a drug dealer. Do you see how, unless you have personal knowledge of Oscar Grant's life, your statements about someone "hanging out on a street corner selling drugs", "running the streets", "because they didn't attend school" have nothing to do with him and are solely your own projections and assumptions?

                                    When we strip away the made-up story your brain is telling you about Oscar Grant, and look only at the evidence and data at hand, we see a working member of society and father who appears to have been shot execution-style while handcuffed and face-down on the ground because he was involved in a fight on a Bart train on New Year's Eve.

                                    Question 2: Based on that information *alone*, do you think the it was appropriate for the officer to draw his gun at that moment in the arrest?

                                    Question 3: And, do you think the use of lethal force was called for at the point at which the weapon was fired?
                                    • Ok, I wasn't going to talk about him, himself at all. Because obviously it would get ugly.
                                      I was only going to talk about the idiots rioting and the fact that mistakes happen and the police protect us from idiots like Oscar Grant fighting ON A BART TRAIN with a crowd.

                                      But how about this for you well defined established family man.
                                      "KPIX-TV reported Grant had a criminal record and served time at state prison in 2007 and 2008 and was involved in twelve cases between April 2004 and May 2008.[17] Grant, who had also been convicted of drug dealing, had been sentenced to 16 months in state prison in 2007 after he fled from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol.[13] Grant was most recently released from prison September 23, corrections officials said. Any other convictions (before 2004) are not public record since Grant was a minor at that time."

                                      My guess is drug selling is the least of our concerns with this guy.

                                      Dude woulda probably robbed you if you were alone in a dark alley and he knew he was gonna get away with it. Or maybe he would have just tried to fight you on BART on front of everyone knowing he wouldn't get away with it. Some people make bad choices, He was one of them.
                                      Not missed.

                                      People are dieing daily, innocent and shot in backs. But for the most part they bring it upon themselves in their lifestyle choices.

                                      Let's talk about.... sayyyy.... the War in Iraq.... what about all those innocents... I think we have more control over that and should be more outraged. You tools. Don't be so scared of being labeled a racist. It is not racist to not give a fuck about some dude who got shot during a scuffle that was the aftermath of a brawl on a train. I wouldn't care if he was white, mexican or black. You're all making me sick. Why do you try so hard for this guy and not do anything about other issues?

                                      And what about this guy and his family?
                                      "Mehserle and his family received a number of death threats after videos of the shooting appeared, and he has been moved at least twice; his parents have also had to leave their Napa home because of death threats to the family."

                                      I actually hope nothing happens to him. He was doing his job and made a mistake. Could have been the taser confusion. He had no prior record or complaints, did look like a mistake. Also smart enough not to execute a random stranger in front of hundreds. It wasn't murder, he didn't know the guy, had no motive or reason.

                                      As of reading this post and all you fools. I am going pro BART Police guy whatever his name is. I have logic. You don't. You just fear being called a racist and are over compensating for your true feelings towards thugs and ghettos that happen to be black.
                                      • What say you Drusilla.........

                                        why did you feel the need to deify this guy..?

                                        He died tragically but he was in fact a thug............and it's a bit of a miracle the street's hadn't killed him before.

                                        It does not change the fact that this was a tragedy.........but it is insightful how much of the public races incite, when there is no shortage of mayhem, murder, addiction, incarceration and misery to choose from in Oakland.................

                                        anyway..........well said Gerry
                                        • His previous scuffles with the Law- which he served time for and has been 'rehabilitated'- should have nothing to do with him getting shot in the back facedown on the pavement. He paid his debt to society once already. And it sounds like he had been trying to come to terms with his past and move beyond it. Maybe that time in prison deeply affected him, and compelled him to make some positive changes.
                                          No-one will know.
                                          Maybe he was trying to break up a fight. Maybe he was backing down.
                                          No-one will know
                                          His voice has been needlessly silenced by an undertrained and inexperienced BART cop. A mix up with the tazer? Sorry, that's a lame excuse.
                                        • KPIX-TV reported Grant had a criminal record and served time at state prison in 2007 and 2008 and was involved in twelve cases between April 2004 and May 2008.[17] Grant, who had also been convicted of drug dealing, had been sentenced to 16 months in state prison in 2007 after he fled from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol.[13] Grant was most recently released from prison September 23, corrections officials said. Any other convictions (before 2004) are not public record since Grant was a minor at that time."

                                          Thanks for passing this along. Good facts. But surely you're not saying that we need to have two different sets of rules for law enforcement officers: one for the citizens that you or the police feel deserve preferential treatment, and another for those who are less deserving? Who would own the sorting hat for that?

                                          "Dude woulda probably robbed you...."

                                          Sorry, but anything with the word "probably" is pure conjecture and not germane.

                                          "Let's talk about.... sayyyy.... the War in Iraq.... what about all those innocents... I think we have more control over that and should be more outraged. You tools. Don't be so scared of being labeled a racist. It is not racist to not give a fuck about some dude who got shot during a scuffle that was the aftermath of a brawl on a train. I wouldn't care if he was white, mexican or black. You're all making me sick. Why do you try so hard for this guy and not do anything about other issues?"

                                          What makes you think I'm not actively working on other issues, such as trying to end the war? Do you see the difference between discussing the facts about what happened to Oscar Grant and making up a story about me in your own head?

                                          Do you really believe that the people evaluating whether what happened to Oscar Grant was a crime will bring the Iraq war into the discussion? As in, "Your honor, I move we dismiss all charges against Mehserle because we should all be putting our efforts towards ending the war instead!" There's a term for what you're doing here: it's called an ad hominem argument. Again, not germane.

                                          "I actually hope nothing happens to him. He was doing his job and made a mistake. Could have been the taser confusion."

                                          This may be true, and I sure hope you're right, because then we have a tragedy and miscarriage of justice, not abuse of force and a violation of human rights. But the whole point of the investigation is to determine this. From facts. You don't get to vote on it.

                                          "As of reading this post and all you fools. I am going pro BART Police guy whatever his name is. I have logic. You don't. You just fear being called a racist and are over compensating for your true feelings towards thugs and ghettos that happen to be black."

                                          You're mistaken. What I care about is equal justice, and that means for everybody, not just a sub-group that you or I or a law enforcement officer decides deserve it.

                                          Last, calling people 'tools' and 'fools' does not improve your position.
                                        • Help me out here glenzzz: where do you see me deifying him? What does deifying mean to you?
                                          • Deifying means you take a thug who was killed and you portray him as a hard-working pillar of the community..........which is what you did earlier.

                                            I won't say you have consistently lied here........but you consistently stretch things.........

                                            I'm glad you acknowledge that this might have been an act of idiocy, as opposed to an execution.............because that's probably what it was...........

                                            You think this police officer who by all accounts had lived a clean life, and was a quiet, steadfast individual, suddenly in plain view of hundreds decided to execute a man....?

                                            Get a grip.

                                            I think what Gerry and I are trying to say is that you and others who are so quick to jump on this particular bandwagon are really just looking for a bandwagon...........because if you were worried about Social Justice you would be walking the streets of Oakland every other day because we have a black on black killing about every other day here. But no..........the party doesn't start with you hippies until a white person kills a black person which happens what...........every 5 years..?

                                            Soooo, give us please more of your tortuous logic for this..??
                                            • "I think what Gerry and I are trying to say is that you and others who are so quick to jump on this particular bandwagon are really just looking for a bandwagon... [...] You think this police officer who by all accounts had lived a clean life, and was a quiet, steadfast individual, suddenly in plain view of hundreds decided to execute a man....? "

                                              I don't know. But here's the thing, glennzzz: I would get out there and protest even if it was you who they'd shot and killed, because in my world, nobody deserves to be shot in the back like the videos show Oscar Grant was.

                                              Soooo, give us please more of your tortuous logic for this..?? "

                                              I'm sorry you find this torturous, but I'm willing to try again. What you said up there about walking the streets of Oakland is another good example of an ad hominem argument. Like the Iraq war, it has nothing to do with Oscar Grant. You could even be right in saying it and it would still have nothing to do with Oscar Grant. There are people out there who agree with you about the need for daily protests against social injustice in Oakland, but disagree with your "bandwagon" conclusion. Instead, they're saying, "Thank goodness something happened to catalyze and motivate people to push for change." Where you see hypocrisy; others see cause for optimism, for opportunity.

                                              And, I'd like to say that I'm sorry that you don't like the amount of attention this case is getting relative to other social issues, but that's another place where you need to check your head. It's getting attention because the evidence is horrifying.
                                              • I really wish I had more time to care about this..... but I do not.

                                                So do you actively "protest" for this cause?
                                                What other protest do you take place in? Or is it just this one?

                                                And as for the video evidence in this is horrifying.... Still looks like a mistake to me. I have seen much more horrifying in person. Attacks carried out deliberately, on purpose with thought and planning. Attacks that have gone on for up to 10 minutes. In almost every single case(except 2) it has been a young African American male with my guess is an extensive criminal record such as that of Grants. And these attacks have been directed at Asians and Whites here in my neighborhood. Innocent people and yes, with their back turned in a few cases. And mind you many attacks have been directed at me over the years. All by blacks. No one else. I think there is a much bigger issue there. one death? Or thousands of attacks a year with many deaths? Focus your energy elsewhere.
                                                Maybe I should outrage and start "protesting" and go burn down some Vietnamese establishments. That'll show those young black bastards we will get justice.

                                                You guys are really being idiots. Will you be happy if the cop gets shot? Or do you want him locked up in jail where some Black guy will kill him because he is "the cop who planned, shot and murdered a black youth out of racism". And by the way, 22 is not "youth" the guy should have known right from wrong by then. Fighting on BART is wrong.

                                                And in my world no one deserves to get shot in the back either. However in my world I am surrounded by Oakland where they shoot each other int he back. So in my world I can allow for a single honest in the moment mistake by a police officer that has been protecting me. One that was called out because someone was hurting others on public transportation. In my world no one should be able to fight on BART. In my world if you have an extensive criminal record and have been in and out of jail the probability of you doing wrong in the future is high.

                                                What would make you happy? The cop dead? Him to say it was racism? Him to be locked up and killed behind bars? BART Police to pay the mother money for a wasted youth? What the hell is it you seek?
                                                Cause I sure as hell don't think 25 Million should come out of my tax dollars and BART fares for some gangsters mom.
                                                I sure as hell do not think that an honest hard working officer putting his life on the line should be locked up. What about his family? He actually has accomplished something, has nice things and lives a nice life. he didn't commit a fucking murder.

                                                LoL @ a butcher apprenticeship? Come on my good friend was a lead butcher at a massive chain back in high school. What is an apprentice at a tiny little market? The guy who cleans scraps? he did not have some career and great life going. He was an active in and out the system criminal. it had only been 3 months and he already got caught fighting on BART. Idiot.

                                                And as for "murder"? Was not.
                                                "Murder as defined in Common Law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide."

                                                And Homicide.... not always an illegal act. In this case I think I would agree.
                                                "Homicide (Latin homicidium, homo human being + caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of killing another human being.[1] It can also describe a person who has committed such an act, though this use is rare in modern English. Homicide is not always an illegal act."


                                                • <Or do you want him locked up in jail where some Black guy will kill him >

                                                  Gee Gerry, so you think white people who shoot black people shouldn't be sent to jail, hm?

                                                  <What would make you happy? The cop dead? Him to say it was racism? Him to be locked up and killed behind bars? BART Police to pay the mother money for a wasted youth? What the hell is it you seek? ... I sure as hell do not think that an honest hard working officer putting his life on the line should be locked up. What about his family? He actually has accomplished something, has nice things and lives a nice life. he didn't commit a fucking murder. >

                                                  Well, that about sums it all up, doesn't it? Young black guy with a troubled past gets executed, and he's just a worthless thug no matter whether he's trying to improve his life, has a real job, a four year old daughter, none of that matters to Gerry because he's classified him in his little mental finiling system as a bad guy. No matter that witnesses say that Grant was trying to get his friends to calm down and cooperate with the cops before being singled out by the police, ol Gerry KNOWS he was just a gangsta.

                                                  But it would be just a shame to destroy the life of his executor, cause he's a nice white guy with a family. His life is clearly worth far more than Grant's.

                                                  Of course, we're talking about a cop who, in the scenario that is the absolute most sympathetic to him and his case, INTENDED TO TASER A HELPLESS, HANDCUFFED MAN WHO WAS LYING ON THE GROUND and was too clueless to nitce he'd pulled out his gun unstead. Yeah, I'm sure that's just the kind of guy Gerry thinks should be out there keeping folks in line.

                                                  What would make people happy? How about the arrest and fair trial of a killer? How the guy could possibly be guilty of anything less than manslaughter, I don't know how anyone could imagine.
                                                  • Nice way to twist everything.
                                                    White people who shoot any people should be sent to jail.
                                                    I don't care what color he or Grant is. Pretend they're both fucking mexican. Situation is the same but no one is protesting now.

                                                    However it is a cops job to carry a gun and mistakes will happen. We kinda give them that power without hanging a we will execute you clause over their head for making an honest mistake, which it seems this was.
                                                    We have police officers, whether good or bad we give them the job of policing and making judgment. He made a mistake. So he dies because of his job to protect?

                                                    So what would make you happy? Him jailed 25 to life? What about his family? What about his kid?
                                                    You guys really think this is how it should go down? A tragedy / mistake happens so we should make it a double tragedy and affect even more innocent lives?

                                                    Kind of hypocritical I say.

                                                    • Adding to what Gerry said

                                                      Suppose you're a cop.........you get the thug who is brawling off the train.......who is likely intoxicated...........and you're surrounded by a hundred screaming idiots at the BART station at 2am.

                                                      You call in the guys name on the walkie talkie..........and they call you back and tell you this guy has been arrested dozens of times for robbery, assault, and has in the past fled from police and been armed.............

                                                      No wonder the cop was twitchy..............

                                                      What happened to the guy sucks.......but at the end of the day the guy put himself in that situation. He was engaged in a violent act whilst intoxicated at 2am in the morning and he had an extensive record which involved evading the police and being armed with a gun. He put himself in that situation.

                                                      And that Kelly is why you don't prosecute a cop like you do a thug who shoots someone with Malice.

                                                      The characterization of this act as an execution is in a word.......silly.
                                                      • HAHA! Glennzzz This is a pretty hilarious scenario. What police officer calls in for someone's rap sheet before they have everyone cuffed and the situation under control?

                                                        These are the lengths you're going to in order to justify your position? Dude, it's not that hard. You could just say you thought it was an accident and that the situation was tense. Making up some story about calling in his name on the walkie talkie when he's not fully cuffed and taken care of..... far-fetched.

                                                        From my obviously ill-informed vantage point and the judges seat I occupy (my couch) I want to say it looks like the officer was enraged momentarily and fired a shot into this guy's back without much fore-thought. Crime of passion. Still a crime, but I can see that sort of thing happening in a tense situation.

                                                        Called in his name....... hahahaha
                                                    • <White people who shoot any people should be sent to jail.
                                                      I don't care what color he or Grant is. >

                                                      Gee Gerry, that's exactly the opposite of what you said in your previous post.

                                                      <Pretend they're both fucking mexican. Situation is the same but no one is protesting now.>

                                                      Bull fucking shit, boy. I gauruntee you that if a young man who was helpless, on the ground, and handcuffed was shot in the back in fron of tons of witnesses and the video spread for all to see, there would be huge prtoests regardless of anyone's race. But yeah, yet another black man being killed by a white cop who walk free adds an extra layer of fuckedupness to the whole situation.

                                                      <However it is a cops job to carry a gun and mistakes will happen. We kinda give them that power without hanging a we will execute you clause over their head for making an honest mistake, which it seems this was. >

                                                      Oh, you mean the part about he might have only wanted to tazer the helpless handcuffed guy on the ground, so that's OK? Man, you are totally fucked up if you think that's no problem, which you clearly seem to. Bet you're another one of those guys who thought the Riders were unfairly persecuted.

                                                      <So what would make you happy?>

                                                      I'm sorry, Gerry, is reading comprehension that difficult a subject for you? Here, I'll try again - read slowly if it's hard for you. HE SHOULD BE ARRESTED AND GIVEN A FAIR TRIAL.

                                                      <What about his family? What about his kid? >

                                                      Wow, your concern is so touching. They can visit him in jail. Oscar Grant's daughter doesn't have that option, does she? Oh, but you've decided her dad was a wothless gangsta thug, so who cares?

                                                      <Kind of hypocritical I say>

                                                      You're the incarnation of it, I'd say.
                                                      • What's with you calling everyone "boy"?

                                                        Simply did not look like murder. He was not bracing himself for a gun shot, did not have both hands on weapon, was bent legged and armed, was extremely surprised, it was all a mistake.
                                                        Sure try him for it. But he will get off because he did not commit murder. He made a mistake during his duties as an officer to protect people from ghettos.

                                                        The guy was struggling, kicking, not participating, resisting arrest. He had a good tase coming for him. But shit happens and he got shot instead. Maybe they need better regulations on tasing people then? Because right now they are pretty lose. people die from taser shock all the time in this nation. Go protest that.

                                                        and I didn't decide shit about her dad. I read that he is indeed a criminal. A product of the system, in and out. Is what it is. Don't blame me for it.
                                                        • Jerry- I disagree. A Tazer, like any fire arm, you use both hands for control. Shooting a gun bolt upright, without knees or elbows bent does not sound like a correct firing posture. Maybe Mehserle was going for the ghetto gangster style posture of execution?

                                                          If the cop was going to taze him, he would have ended up tazering his fellow officers, as they were sitting on top of Oscar Grant. That would mean 3 people down, including the 2 officers called in to control the situation. THEN the shiznit would hit the fan: one completely confused officer wondering what happened, 2 other officers 'subdued', poor black guy 'subdued', and a BART platform full of people watching it all. The People probably would not be sympathetic to the rookie cop who just accidentally tazered his backups. Maybe rookie cop would have some time to radio MORE backup, but it's doubtful.

                                                          The arrested cop knew what he was doing. He killed a physically restrained man point blank, face down. The cops ears probably got a good ringing when the shot went off.
                                                          Maybe Mehserle had an emotional break, but cops are usually trained to avoid such situations. But BART cops are woefully undertrained, esp compared to Oakland cops.

                                                          It would be really interesting to see when (or more probable, if....) which BART officer called in an ID check. Was it before they put him face down on the ground or after? if it was before, then Jerrys speculation may be correct of their justified fear, needing 3 burly dudes with guns to restrain one unarmed person. If they did it after, then there is less justification for their actions. Not sure what the procedure is for BART cops. Maybe there wasn't time for it and Oscar paid for it with his life.
                                                          • Ok Tomcat, you pretend to be smart and all... but really?
                                                            If he was tazed it would not effect the cops restraining him. Not all of them would heave to the ground lol.
                                                            It is standard proceedure to taze someone when 3 people are involved in restraining them. He was resisting. I see his legs kicking and he is trying to get up.

                                                            They are trained to shoot the taser with one hand, gun with two. They are trained to shoot the taser into the torso, not the spine. Which he did. I have a friend who went through 2 years of police training and other courses. What happened there was standard procedure for prior felons currently resisting arrest. The only difference is he grabbed his tazer instead of gun. I guess BART just got these new tasers?

                                                            And I'm pretty sure at this time they ran his ID. Hence the wanting to search and restrain of the prior convicted. Do you think all of the cops just decided to single out one guy? Procedure man. This wasn't bored cops looking for someone to kill.
                                                            • Here's some more info...lifted from a friend's blog....posting here to share so that others who are interested can participate if they wish.

                                                              There's a Facebook group (CAPE):
                                                              www.facebook.com/group.php

                                                              1. Contact the DA of Alameda County. As of January 14, 2009, The District Attorney FINALLY PRESSED CHARGES against the police officer who shot and killed Oscar Grant about TWO WEEKS AGO. Now that he is arrested, we must demand that Johannes Mehserle be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and that the prosecution do their job to ensure the charges are not dropped.

                                                              ALAMEDA COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY
                                                              (510) 272-6222 phone
                                                              (510) 271-5157 fax
                                                              1225 Fallon Street # 900
                                                              Oakland, CA 94612

                                                              2. Hold the media accountable. When the news reported that the protests on Wednesday, January 7, 2009 “turned violent”, they got it wrong! The protesters at the Fruitvale BART Station (organized by a grassroots organization called CAPE - Coalition Against Police Executions) were peaceful. The vandalism that occurred in downtown Oakland was a different group. They were two separate news stories, but the news collapsed them into one or completely ignored the peaceful protest.

                                                              LET THE MEDIA KNOW THAT YOU WILL NOT STAND FOR SHODDY NEWS REPORTING. Tell them that you are aware of and outraged by their mistake. And that you expect a superior standard of reporting from them at the next rally (4pm, Wednesday, January 14, Oakland City Hall).

                                                              CBS 5 / KPIX TV
                                                              415-765-8717
                                                              cbs5.com/contact

                                                              KRON 4
                                                              4listens@kron4.com
                                                              (415) 561-8186

                                                              ABC 7
                                                              abclocal.go.com/kgo/feature
                                                              abc7listens@kgo-tv.com
                                                              (877) 222-7777.

                                                              3. Attend the next protest: Wed, Jan 14, 4pm at Oakland City Hall

                                                              Protest the Murder of Oscar Grant III
                                                              & All Victims of Police Brutality (inlcuding the shooting of Robbie Tolan)
                                                              Wednesday, Jan 14, 4pm
                                                              Gather at Frank Ogawa Plaza in front of City Hall
                                                              A peaceful march will follow the rally

                                                              4. Attend the next organizing & mobilizing meeting. Come and find out what ways you can support the movement. Take action. Speak out. Raise money. Build coalitions.

                                                              Organize! Mobilize!
                                                              An action planning meeting
                                                              Hosted by The Black Clergy & CAPE
                                                              Saturday, January 17, 2009, 4:00 PM
                                                              Olivet Missionary Baptist Church
                                                              807 27th Street @ San Pablo, Oakland

                                                              5. Stay tuned for other actions, protests, etc., especially if you are in the Bay. One way to keep up with what is happening is to join CAPE on facebook.com.

                                                              CAPE - Coalition Against Police Executions
                                                              CAPE is a coalition to insure that Oscar Grant is the last citizen executed by police in this country."

                                                              6. Organize to support Robbie Tolan. He is still in the hospital after being shot in the liver by police while in front of his own Texas home simply because he was driving a vehicle the police deemed to nice a vehicle for him to own. Therfore, the police believed the vehicle to be stolen and necessary to brutalize his mother and shoot him in the chest with intent to kill.
                                                            • "And I'm pretty sure at this time they ran his ID. "
                                                              'pretty sure' doesn't cut it here- someone died. Lets find out what the radio log says- it's public record and will be released soon enough.

                                                              Hence the wanting to search and restrain of the prior convicted.


                                                              "Do you think all of the cops just decided to single out one guy?"
                                                              They did in fact single out one guy. That's why there's one dead 22 year old father/

                                                              "This wasn't bored cops looking for someone to kill."

                                                              Of course not. The cops are not pure predators. But there was a breakdown in procedure, from an undertrained police force.
                                                              We will find out- and only because of public outrage. The burden of proof is heaped upon the city of oakland, who haven't been too successful in clearing murder cases, or being particularly strong in prosecuting cases. Chauncey Baily comes to mind, as does all the lawsuits they just rolled over on.

                                                              What do you mean by 'pretend to be smart' ? I disagreed with you, backed up my claims with facts and observation, and now I'm stupid? Have I personally attacked you??

                                                              whatthefuckeverdude.

                                                              I even avoided taking a potshot at Glen and some others. This is the thanks I get?


                                                            • no
                                                              this was cops with knowledge of 20 years without a police officer being prosecuted.
                                                              they had no fear. no discretion. i can pull a gun out and hold it over someone without firing it. 100 times out of 100.
                                                              • In addition to the public videos, BART says they have camera footage that has not been seen by the public. Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff described it as "very valuable." And Orloff said that Mehserle had been charged with murder because the evidence showed that Grant was the victim of an unlawful, intentional killing.

                                                                I was really hoping the other evidence such as the non-public video and the statements from the cops in the proximity of the event would point to it being an accident or Mehserle having had a psychotic break or something like that.

                                                                I'm not an attorney. I'd be interested to get a read from someone with expertise in this area re: whether this is any indication on whether they believe they have a really solid case, or whether this is just a typical starting point for the charges from which they expect to negotiate downwards, or something else.
                                                                • He was charged with Murder because the DA wanted to placate the Mob.

                                                                  Drusilla is part of a mob..........

                                                                  Get the party started.....

                                                                  Oakland is definitely a Mob in need of a white guy to blame for somethin........this is almost too good to be true.........
                                                                  • "Drusilla is part of a mob.......... "

                                                                    Yes.


                                                                    Yes, I am.


                                                                    Be vewy vewy afwaid.
                                                                    • This is symbolic of what..?

                                                                      A dumb guy making a mistake......

                                                                      It is not in any way symbolic of the misery and the mire that is Oakland............

                                                                      Think about that.......

                                                                      Hundreds of murders a year take place in Oakland, a child sitting at a piano, a hard working immigrant in his restaurant, the drug dealers killing each other

                                                                      But what excites Drusilla, what excites the Mob.

                                                                      A chance to take what is almost certainly a tragic mistake, and make it symbolic of a Racism that doesn't exist.

                                                                      Oakland's misery has nothing to do with what happened at that moment between that cop and that kid on the ground. Oakland's misery has everything to do with how that kid, who had no education, a rap sheet as long as my arm, and plenty of experience with weapons...............came to be brawling on a train at 2am, destined for another encounter with the Police.

                                                                      Because that my friend is Oakland. Uneducated, Unparented, Addicted, sociopathic youth..........brawling on a train, murdering each other nearly one every other day, dead end lives certain to end in incarceration or death. A local government so pathetic that I don't dare go into it here..........

                                                                      The truth is everywhere............but it wasn't on that train platform at that moment...........that was just a tragedy.

                                                                      So march you bastards.......we're still laughing at ya........
                                                                      • If Highland Hospital did not have such an amazing Trauma center, the murder rate would be triple of what it is.

                                                                        Please use this factoid to further derail the conversation.
                                                                        • We have to cut glennzzz some slack. Obviously his mother was one of those closet white-collar meth addicts who was abducted and impregnated by aliens. See, babies whose mothers use methamphetamine during pregnancy experience learning disabilities, developmental delays, altered behavior patterns commonly called "irritable baby syndrome", and unprovoked fits of anger. Plus, aliens have Space Herpes, which, when passed on to the child, creates chancres in the brain, making basic logic appear torturous. We must ask ourselves: who failed this child? We did: in our failure to get the Strategic Defense Initiative, aka Star Wars, passed in a bond measure.

                                                                          It's also obvious from his clothing choices that he's a member of the John Birch Society, the KKK, and the Mormon Tabernacle Dancers. Based on the fabric pattern on his tie alone, I can tell that he's personally responsible for 87.4% of all racial oppression in the greater San Francisco Bay area (imagine what I would know if I could see his socks). Gangbangin, sellin drugs, pimpin, murder... all from that simulated silk paisley tie from WalMart and dirty dancing to Jesus Walked This Lonesome Valley.

                                                                          But given that he is white, male, and knows how to wear a suit, the bigger crime against society is that glenzzz isn't in the White House. There, glenzzz would be most effective at centralizing all Social Justice efforts across this great land of ours. He will be able to decide which causes deserve attention and which have too high a hypocrisy factor to be worth our while. He will build more Free Speech Zones under freeway overpasses, thereby stimulating the economy. And he will be able to fix, once and for all, the newspapers, TV, textbooks, and other media that are brainwashing people into believing in a Racism that obviously no longer exists.

                                                                          Also, he is using a hair styling product that, when washed down the drain, kills baby salmon, cleansing our rivers and seas of these oceangoing pests, which are interfering with the growth of the melamine industry.

                                                                          This all became clear to me while I was rioting with The Mob last night. Window breaking always clears my head.
  • 1. A fight was reported on BART, but there were no descriptions of the individuals involved.
    2. BART police detain a group of people on the BART platform, sitting them on the ground.
    3. None of the individuals resist the officers and none of them are handcuffed.
    4. One of the individuals was heard by witnesses telling the rest of the group to calm down and do what the police say.
    5. That particular individual was removed from the rest of the group and placed lying face down on the BART platform with 3 officers surrounding him - still not handcuffed.
    6. He was heard by witnesses asking the police not to hurt him, not to tase him, and that he had a 4 year old daughter.
    7. One officer who was standing above this detained individual removed his handgun, aimed at the individuals back, and fired.
    These are the facts.
    Notice I did not use racially identifiying words because it doesn't matter what race the people involved were.
    What does matter is that an unarmed unhandcuffed indivudual who was not resisting (they would have already had handcuffs on him if he was) was shot in the back point blank by a BART police officer for no apparent reason, and that is wrong - and illegal.
    Personally, I don't really care who Oscar Grant was, what his background was, who is family is, where he came from, how old he is, or what is race is.
    What I do care about is that in this country where supposedly every individual is "innocent until proven guilty," this is rarely the case.
    And, when a presumably "innocent" man is killed for no apparent reason by some stupid police officer who can't tell his gun from his taser, or who doesn't have the psychological training or state of mind to handle any sort of escalated situation - he should be punished accordingly.
    And, people should be pissed.
    • where the hell did you get all those "facts" because they go against everything out there.
      I saw with my own eyes, him resiting and kicking.
      The guy next to him was much cooperative and sounds like who you meant to explain.

      Also innocent until proven guilty does not apply to proven track record and resisting arrest.
      If I am a cop, I find out from my dispatch you have been armed and dangerous, resisted arrest and maybe even up for strike number 3. you are a major threat and be prepared to be tased the second you resist.

      True that.
      bitches.
      • Innocent until proven guilty is supposed to apply to EVERYONE!
        Thats what America is supposed to be all about... freedom and equality and all that bullshit...but obviously that isn't the case.
        So let me ask you this: If you were a cop and were dealing with a criminal with a track record that was lying face down in front of you with three cops already detaining him, would you shoot to kill?
        He didn't tase him, he shot him, and thats a fact.
        • LOL really?

          innocent until proven guilty does not mean you are unarrestable. The guy was under arrest. Do not forget.
          When under arrest you do not fight back.
          Innocent until proven guilty means you better be on your best fucking behavior cause you do have a trial coming that will prove you guilty based upon your actions during the arrest.

          And no, no one should shoot to kill. You sure as hell should shoot to tase though.
          And that's what I see there with the obvious mistake.

          Shooting to kill is a whole nother action with different body language, leading too and coming out of. That looked nothing like it. Looked like a fucked up mistake that was caused by a hoodlum resisting arrest.
          He had a good tasing coming to him. Don't you know how it works? You comply. You do not comply be ready for consequences.

          I was running from the cops one time and near a fence ready to hop it, but damn there was another five-o on the other side so I break left. Me and my homie. Well by the time we realize we're about to make a long dash through a field cause they had us cornered I hear FREEZE MOTHERFUCKER and what did I do.... FROZE.
          This was a loud yelling angry cop that had already been chasing us. I am not gonna risk him shooting me. He does not know if I am armed and I do not know if he is gonna tase me or what. I complied. He roughed me up when cuffed. Damn near broke my arm.
          But I was a punk ass teenager breaking the law, evading the police and resisting arrest. He was doing his job and got riled up in the moment. the best of us would.
        • Innocent until proven guilty ? Are you holding that same standard to the officer ? Sounds to me like you already have him convicted
          • "Innocent until proven guilty ? Are you holding that same standard to the officer ? Sounds to me like you already have him convicted"

            owned.
            • yep,

              owned

              and the greater question becomes...............

              why is this the murder that brings all the people out of the woodwork......? Because it's the .05% (or less) of murders in Oakland where a white person kills a person of color...........?

              Or is it just some junior high anarchy thing where you get to bitch about cops..?
              • <“innocent until proven guilty does not mean you are unarrestable. The guy was under arrest.”>

                Yes, we can clearly see that in the video. He was under arrest, and then he was shot and killed before he had the chance to prove his innocence.
                Did you know that it was never determined if Oscar was even involved in the fight on BART? Look it up, because you won't find anything.

                <"Innocent until proven guilty ? Are you holding that same standard to the officer ? Sounds to me like you already have him convicted">

                I don’t have to hold that standard because the law already has. That officer has been treated as if he was innocent for long enough, and he has FINALLY been arrested on murder charges. The officer is allowed a fair trial, which is more than we can say for Oscar Grant who had that right taken away from him when that one particular officer took it amongst himself to be both the judge and the jury and decide his fate for him.

                <“why is this the murder that brings all the people out of the woodwork......? Because it's the .05% (or less) of murders in Oakland where a white person kills a person of color...........?”>

                This murder brought people out because it was a blatant display of how fucked up and corrupt our system is. This murder brought people out because there were many witnesses who had the courage to speak out against the wrong doings of the BART police, and because those witnesses caught the crime on camera. This murder brought people out because the murderer was not immediately arrested, questioned and brought to justice, as any other criminal would have been had it not been a cop.
                We can only wish that more murders were under these same circumstances, because then we could bring justice to more of these victims, but that is usually not the case.
                When there is a murder in the middle of a plaza, or in the ghetto, or on the streets there are no cameras, no witnesses, or the witnesses are too scared to come forward for fear of the murderer or the cops. There is no evidence to prove or disprove what happened, and we are all left to wonder whether there will be justice… this time we don’t have to wonder.
                • Hey Vaud

                  Nice try.

                  You don't address any of our questions as to why this shooting is any more important than the 120 others we will have in Oakland this year.

                  You mouth the liberal platitudes though................fucked up system, corrupt system, Justice, justice, justice........o

                  Time to march lad!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Hi Glen. Read the post again. I answered your question.
                    It may not have been the answer you wanted, but it was answered none the less.
                    Thanks for the comment about all that liberal jibberish, but just to inform you: I AM NOT A LIBERAL. In fact, I hate politics. Mainly because of people like you.
                    And Raider, we obviously have very different opinions about the outcome of this case.
                    The officer already pleaded “Not Guilty” as everyone expected he would.
                    Just because he “didn’t mean to” doesn’t mean he’s innocent.
                    But hey, we’ll see what happens when the time comes.
                    All I know is that if he isn’t convicted, we’re going to see a lot more of the “kicking out windows, trashing cars, and throwing bottles at cops” that you speak of… and you’re right; They will all be laughing and having a great time! :)
                    I hope you’re not parked anywhere in Oakland when your dream of an "innocent" murderer cop comes true.
                    And yes, it will be TIME TO MARCH!
                • Wait until the trial comes around. I dont think the officer is going to say he decided to kill oscar grant. I think he is going to say he meant to do something else. And, if he did mean to do something else it is not going to result in a murder conviction. No matter how much you may hate cops and want to see one go to prison. I guess justice is subjective.

                  I think the officer really made a big mistake and killed grant. But, I dont think it was murder. If you knew the procedures of the DA's office and the police department's you would have probably understood what is going on. You say more people do not come forward to witness regular murders because they are afraid of the murderers or of the police. I dont think so. The vibe I get from everyone is that is just life in the ghetto. That is the way life is out here. I did not see too many people at that downtown riot who seemed to care too much about grant. I saw people kicking out windows, trashing cars, and throwing bottles at cops all the while laughing and having a great time.

                  One thing you are right about is that this time justice will be done. It may not be in your perspective but it will be done.
                • "This murder brought people out because it was a blatant display of how fucked up and corrupt our system is."

                  A cops mistake is not our "system". That was very lame of you.
                  Our system is so damn corrupt because they are able to trick half a nation into thinking they won and election and now have hope and change. Our system is corrupt because of manipulation, media control, mind altering subliminal messages, non critical thinking creation of drones via the Department of Education.

                  I don't expect you to understand though.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    A cop's mistake is NOT our "system," but trying to cover up a cop's mistake and not allowing the community access to what is goin on IS.
                    All of the other things you stated are great explanations of why our system is corrupt... I actually agree with you on that. But, those are not the ONLY explanations.
                    • Tell me what exactly they did to try to cover up the shooting of grant ? I dont know what they have done. I dont think they have done anything. They may not have been as upfront with information as you may have liked them to be but I dont see anything that they have done to try and cover anything up.

                      Some people think everything is a cover up. Hey, Tu Pac is still alive and working for the government.
                      • Hey Vaud

                        I think Raider addressed your ridiculous premise that there is somehow a coverup here..........

                        And if you want to march........by all means march........

                        but if you knock out my windown............

                        you may discover that it isn't only criminals in Oaktown who have guns..........

                        Anyway, this is small time shit.

                        Oaktown has a Bernie Goetz in its future............the thugs have been knockin the working people around for far too long. And the mentally ill whites have been excusing their behavior...................and the black leadership has been of the race huckster, Dellums variety.

                        Then we will see a few interesting marches...........
                        • "but if you knock out my windown............

                          you may discover that it isn't only criminals in Oaktown who have guns.........."

                          In a bizarre twist on the Oscar Grant tragedy, an Oakland resident shot and killed a protester for breaking a window in his home last night. Glenn Zzz, at 224 West Philistia Street, was charged with first degree murder. In a statement at the arraignment hearing, at which Mr. Zzz pleaded no contest, Mr. Zzz justified his actions by saying, "I have no idea why you're arresting me for killing this dirty hippie when we are at war with Iraq. The problem with Oakland is that we don't have the death penalty for destruction of property."
                        • I really like having glenzzz in here. Not only is it good to know your enemy, it's good to know your enemy is dumber than a bag of bricks.
                          • Ignoring Mammut completely I'll take Drusilla's bait.

                            How about marching to protest some of the true killings of innocents in Oakland. Oscar Grant like the majority of those killed in Oakland had a long history of criminal/anti-social behavior.

                            So as the gangs and thugs continue to kill each other unabated their violence spills out into the streets and kills the innocent.

                            The pregnant mother killed when a bullet comes thru the wall, the young child sitting at a Piano when another Oscar Grant decides to run from the Police, the immigrant Restaurant Owner working 90 hrs a week who is robbed and gunned down in his place of business.............................I could probably find another 50 of these if I tried hard enough.

                            Yet none of you marched, and there Drusilla, is the irony that has been referred to consistently in this thread.
                            • It was a multi-part question. Please also:

                              - State why you think those are more worthy causes.

                              - State what you have personally done in the past 12 months in support of any one of those causes you believe to be more important.
                              • That they are more worthy causes is self evident................

                                What have I done.............

                                The biggest thing I have done is refuse to excuse poor behavior because of skin color..........which seems to be your MO.

                                No march will stop the violence in Oakland. No mentally ill white person voting for a socialist will stop the violence in Oakland. No burnout hippie singalong will stop the violence in Oakland.

                                What will stop the violence is a zero tolerance for petty criminal behavior. What will stop the violence is a government that legalizes drugs, allows addicts to get inexpensive drugs taking petty crime out of the addict behavior, and then a government that gets all China on those who would choose to sell drugs under these circumstances.

                                So March Drusilla March...................just don't break my window............make me late for an appointment.......or get in my fucking way.........................
                                • Very typical...
                                  People tell you not to protest because they think your cause is not valid.
                                  Then, they tell you about other causes to protest that are more valid.
                                  Then, they tell you still not to protest because you'll be causing such an inconvenience in their lives that they might be late to an appointment.
                                  "Oh my, I would never want you to be late for your precious appointment... especially not when an innocent people all over our city are being murdered..."
                                  Supposedly there are so many ways to "stop the violence," but ofcourse you will never do anything to try. You can talk out of your ass as long as you want about what should be done, but the reality is that these people are taking initiative to make changes in their community... changes that they think really matter.
                                  And, everyone in a community should want changes for the better.
                                  So, you don't need to necesarilly respect the reason of protest, but you should respect that people are trying to make a difference and that they are not only fighting for their rights, but EVERYONE's rights (thats right, including yours).
                                  And when there is something wrong in a community, we should expect that we will see SUPPORT from all individuals within that community, no matter who you are.

                                  "Agitators are a set of interfering, meddling people, who come down to some perfectly contented class of the community and sow the seeds of discontent amongst them. That is the reason why agitators are so absolutely necessary. Without them, in our incomplete state, there would be no advance towards civilization."
                                  -Oscar Wilde
                                  • "Our tradition is one of protest and revolt,
                                    and it is stultifying to celebrate the rebels of the past
                                    while we silence the rebels of the present."
                                    -Henry Steele Commager
                                    • "Very typical... "

                                      Indeed, Vaudie.

                                      glennzzz, I hereby cast two spells upon you.

                                      The first is a Wake-up Spell. From now on, every time you use the phrase "he probably"or "she probably" when discussing people of color, large, black bats, teeth dripping with rabid saliva, will flit around the edges of your vision, reminding you that your mind is making dark, diseased shit up.

                                      The second is a Walk The Talk Spell. Every time you open your mouth to complain about protesters as you sit in your chair, gun or penis in-hand, your mouth will be filled with the taste of the corpses of the dead who, in life, complained about how bad things were without ever doing a thing about it.

                                      You can undo these spells by taking any action - any whatsoever - for any cause that you believe would make the world a better place. Anything at all - letter to your representative, cans of food to the food bank, whatever floats your boat. As a bonus, because you were such a good sport (thanks for playing), if you do it and tell me about it, I will personally send you a reward. I promise you that it will be something you'll like.
                                      • Drusilla, I do not agree with Glenzzz about much of anything, but I actually do think that he does his best to walk the talk. He is here, discussing things, and voicing his opinion (maybe just to piss us all off, but I can hope). For public safety in Oakland to get better, we need better trust among fractured elements of the community. We need more trust of police, and we need more trust of parts of the community that often get lumped with criminals. I believe that can start to happen when people approach each other with respect, listen for the important message, and are tough enough to ignore the BS. I do not ever expect to agree with Glenzzz, but I do hope that I can learn how to hear the message behind his comments. Maybe it is just that there are a lot of people in Oakland who are concerned about their personal safety, and as disgusted as those people may be by what happened to Oscar Grant, they are also disgusted by every other murder in this town. If you do not have that sort of concern, why not?
                                        • "If you do not have that sort of concern, why not?"

                                          I do. I just don't consider it to be an Exclusive Or. Do you?
                                          • "I just don't consider it to be an Exclusive Or. Do you?"
                                            No. I think it makes sense to protest this killing, if that's what you mean, and I think you're right to encourage people to get involved & actively try to fix things.
                                            • No-one has been off the mark here. Everyone has brought up valid points:

                                              - There is the corrosive effect of a family unit that does not include 2 parental types (or more) to give kids boundaries. Yes, there are plenty of abusive households with mom and dad (or mom and grandma, or dad and and uncle), but more often than not, these types of arrangements are better long term for raising kids. It takes a village.
                                              - Poverty sucks the life out of many trapped in it, more than those of wealth. Less opportunity, less role models, less capital to do things like go to school- and get a good quality experience.
                                              - Oscar may not have been the most law abiding person and was caught up in the prison industrial complex.
                                              - A BART cop shot an unarmed guy in the back face down with dozens of witnesses and 2 cops piled on top of him!
                                              - Poor white folks have the same experience that many poor black folks do. The difference though, is the institutionalized racism in our culture that subjects non whites of other class levels with the same treatment. There are a lot of black and latino congressmen that have to show ID every day to pass through the Capitol building, but their white counterparts just get waved through with a 'goodmorningsenator'.
                                              - It was a mistake. Justice still needs to be researched and served. If we don't do at least that, that is a much larger mistake.
                                              - Cars and business windows were needlessly smashed in downtown Oakland, subverting the story of a senseless killing

                                              But, yeah, walk the walk. Some have. Some have legally and rightfully protested, shown up at vigils; others have only talked from their chairs of privilege. Some threw rocks; others took pictures. And Drusilla has made a donation on behalf of Glenn to his favorite charity. Aside from me, who needs to step up and take action?

                                              • Ok, here is something I have done. There was an Oakland police officer killed several years ago. I donated money to his cause to help his family get by. There was a walk last year in North Oakland that was lead by various local leaders and priests that I attended, I donated t-shirts to a local politician to help him run his campaign, I have donated money to several local crime victims that have struck me as particularly upsetting.

                                                I have not done much compared to some but I have done something. The insinuation that I dont do anything is completely wrong.

                                                I can tell you something I havent done, I have never made one person become a victim because of another persons actions.
                                                • I think part of the complaint about the protesters is this. Yes, I believe you can support multiple causes at the same time. But, the people at that protest did not. There support relied solely on causing havoc and throwing bottles at the police. They could have cared less about what the cause was, they just wanted to raise hell and everyone who defends them is pushing a bad position.

                                                  Here is a cause. The 16 year old who was just killed in Hunters Point who is from Oakland. Hey, lets march on that. There is some senseless violence. Why does that not deserve some attention ? Is he less important than oscar grant ? Why do you cry for grant and not the 16 year old ?
                                                  • "Yes, I believe you can support multiple causes at the same time. But, the people at that protest did not."

                                                    I was at the protest. I support multiple causes. I did not destroy anyone's property or hurt anybody.

                                                    How far are you going to take this to try to make yourself "right"? Can't we just agree that we have more in common than we thought? We don't need to have everything in common to stop attacking each other.
                                                    • Well, I do not agree with you in that we have all that in common. But I do agree that we are not going to agree on this issue. Me, I saw that crowd throwing bottles, yelling at cops and being all around hostile. And let me be clear about this, amost everyone at 14th and Broadway on Jan 7th was acting this way. If you did not partake then you are in the minority. Anyways, in my eyes, if you stood in that crowd and allowed people to destroy property then you are also to blame. If someone threw a bottle at a cop, started a car on fire or smashed a window and then went back into the crowd for refuge from arrest and you are part of that crowd giving arrest then you are also to blame.

                                                      It sounds reasonable to me. But, again, I agree that we disagree. I understand that you think I am wrong and I think you are wrong. I understand that it doesn't matter how many people yell on what side because it does not matter. But, how I feel just seems to make common sense to me. I dont think in conspiracy theories and such.
                                                      • Did you not see the hundreds of protesters at the Fruitvale BART station that didn't go into downtown? Did you not see the anti-violence and countless other speakers at that protest encouraging people to be peaceful? Obviously not.
                                                        Again, you are making assumptions based on the very little "evidence" that you have seen.
                                                        Go back onto YouTube and watch the actual protest.
                                                        The aftermath of that was just a bunch of kids taking an opportunity to turn a peaceful protest into something twisted. So actually, THEY were the minority.
                                                        The peaceful protesters were definately the majority.
                                                        But, on a side note: I do not feel that every person involved in the "riot" were acting out of turn. I can see how certain parts of the riot were validated from the rioters point of view. I definately do not condone breaking out the windows of "mom and pop" shops or people's cars... that was ridiculous. But, I do believe that sometimes a little bit of "violence" can show people that you are serious. I also want to point out that there were no fights, no murders, and no confrontations (besides with the police) in Oakland that night.
                                                        Again, I'm not condoning their actions... just respecting their right to express themselves in protest.
                                                      • raider: I did not say we have all of that in common.

                                                        Another thing we don't have in common - I can comprehend what I read. You can not. I can comprehend what is fact and what is speculation. You can not.

                                                        I'm done with this circle jerk. Peace.
                                                        • I thought I read speculum.

                                                          then I re-read.

                                                          speculation!

                                                          thanks for the reading lesson.
                                                          • Republican Attitudes

                                                            Wed, January 28, 2009 - 9:55 PM
                                                            You don't want to take responsibility for the system being wrong, you just want to blame individuals.

                                                            Rioters do things that are wrong. Granted. But you focus on that instead of the system coming to its own self rescue. And don't focus on it as the problem.

                                                            You're newbie white folk in Oakland, claiming some kind of deep history here, and trump up a law-and-order attitude, as if it's going to make any difference.

                                                            And Burningman is more important to you.

                                                            Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.

                                                            And very Republican.

                                                            And for some of you, it's amazing you haven't figured out that Oakland isn't Walnut Creek. It's never going to be, never has been, and no way it's going to move in that direction.

                                                            Bitch, whine, complain, and good luck thinking that Oakland will be anything other than what it is.

                                                            Love it or leave it!

                                                            If you decide to stay, get off your barstool in here (and take the bottle out of Glenzzzz clan-boy's hands), and get real.

                                                            Get real.
                                                            • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                              Thu, January 29, 2009 - 12:52 AM
                                                              Wow, you really claim to know a lot about me. To let ya know I am a lifelong resident of Oakland. My family goes back 3 generationsin Oakland. I have never been to burning man and I think if you do follow the rules that things can come around to change. I dont justify senseless violence.

                                                              I dont know how anyone can say that there were just a few kids who caused violence, look at the tapes on you tube. I dont have to, I was there, I saw it. I saw a lot of people. I saw hundreds of people at 14th and Broadway and those who did cause problems ran back into that crowd for security from the police. I saw the OPD taking a lot of harassment from people when they didnt have anything to do with the oscar grant situation in the first place. And, 105 people were arrested that night. That is not a few kids. That is a lot of people.

                                                              I never tried to justify what the Bart officer did, but you are trying to say that I am because I do not condone the senseless violence of the rioters that night. I did offer some mitigating circumstances as to what may have occurred. If you want something to get real about, try vandalizing something I own. Reality will hit you in the face.
                                                            • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                              Thu, January 29, 2009 - 12:52 AM
                                                              Dan,

                                                              I'm Oakland enough that you wouldn't talk that way to me in person pardner.

                                                              I'm also Oakland enough to think that everyone bears responsibility for their actions. White guys like you......and surprisingly even Tomcat in this very thread consistently reach back hundreds of years to either explain, or excuse behavior that is in many cases MONSTROUS.

                                                              This thread started because some of us found irony in marches surrounding the accidental killing of a typical Oakland Felon.......when all around us we have murders of men of similar ilk. In addition we are surrounded with the murders of those who are truly innocent..........or those who are making a living and are horribly unlucky. The only reason people march in this instance is the old Oakland canard..........race.........

                                                              so out come the hippies to explain to us how once again white police, white power, white privilege are the explanation for this killing, this rage, and the all encompassing violence.

                                                              Oakland will be better than it is today when these sick white attitudes dissapear, when the Black leadership of Oakland is elected because of achievement and qualification, and when the parents and schools of Oakland bring a whiff of accountability into the way they go about c their daily tasks.
                                                              • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                Thu, January 29, 2009 - 8:23 AM
                                                                "Oakland will be better than it is today when...."

                                                                ....you take action instead of whining from the bleachers.
                                                                • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                  Thu, January 29, 2009 - 8:26 AM
                                                                  Chris,

                                                                  Good catch on the WC reference..........I was holding my breath hoping no one would go there..........

                                                                  Drusilla, what exactly have you done besides march with a mob.?
                                                                  • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                    Thu, January 29, 2009 - 8:37 AM
                                                                    "Drusilla, what exactly have you done besides march with a mob.?"

                                                                    Cat-like typing detected.
                                                                    • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                      Thu, January 29, 2009 - 9:19 AM
                                                                      That actually wasn't meant sarcastically.........

                                                                      What actions do you take, or would you have us take that you feel would improve things in Oakland............?
                                                                      • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                        Thu, January 29, 2009 - 10:49 AM
                                                                        I got a bad burger at Burger King that made me feel sick. I am going to burn down a McDonalds and throw stuff at all their employees. Their whole corporate structure is corrupt, racist and takes advantage of the economically disadvantaged. Everyone join me, because we are angry it will justify it in our own minds.
                                                                      • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                        Thu, January 29, 2009 - 11:13 AM
                                                                        "What actions do you take"

                                                                        Question back atcha. Again.

                                                                        Waiting.
                                                                        • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                          Thu, January 29, 2009 - 3:32 PM
                                                                          I employ a a number of people in the bay area..........my company has sent 23 children of employee's thru college to date........out of 38 who started the program. (shitty rate I know)

                                                                          I vote for fiscally conservative candidates (fat chance they have)

                                                                          I avoid paying california taxes whenever I am able.

                                                                          I call on a regular basis all my local legislators to encourage them to take pro-business, job creating positions (they never do)

                                                                          Our block is clean as a whistle and is free of garbage, drug dealers, thieves, and ho's.

                                                                          I never excuse boorish, or criminal behavior because of skin tone.................
                                                                • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                  Thu, January 29, 2009 - 6:56 PM
                                                                  "....you take action instead of whining from the bleachers."

                                                                  Didn't you know that they're in competition in here to win Tribe's infamous "biggest whiner" award?

                                                                  They wake up in the morning and fantasize about living in Walnut Creek. They're wannabes, really, and yet they're not willing to work hard enough to make the dough to live in Walnut Creek, so they moved here and set up a special bar where they can drink and complain and make racist comments and scream and shout and go into temper tantrums when they look out the window.

                                                                  One of their mantras is: "I worked for what I have, God dammit!"
                                                                  • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                    Thu, January 29, 2009 - 7:10 PM
                                                                    Dan

                                                                    go back to your collective home or whatever the fuck it is and make some hoppin john............

                                                                    Your constant references to Walnut Creek show you have run out of ideas
                                                              • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                Thu, January 29, 2009 - 6:49 PM
                                                                ..."when the Black leadership of Oakland is elected because of achievement and qualification...."

                                                                You just can't rub your nose in it enough, can you Genzzzz!
                                                                • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                  Thu, January 29, 2009 - 8:06 PM
                                                                  Dan, you assume a bunch of things about other people so I am going to assume this about you. Next time before you write something try to do it while sober. You write some weird ass shit. Go back Berkeley, hang out in your ashram, get high, sit around in a circle with other losers and talk about how all we need is love.
                                                                  • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                    Thu, January 29, 2009 - 8:34 PM
                                                                    Come and join us raider. We have dirty-blonde dread wigs complete with lice that you can wear. You'll fit right in. And if your energy is pure, we'll let you meet the guru, and maybe even the goddess. First you meet the guru, then you get high, and then we give you a lesson in raw foods. (And you're gonna LOVE raw foods!)

                                                                    Then to the circle. We'll all stare at you and invite you to speak, and smoke, and smoke some more.

                                                                    You'll have all the hugs you need. Heck, you'll be so full of love that you'll go back to Oakland and hug Glenzzz, right here on Tribe. It will be delightful and you'll love it and Glenzz will melt in your hands. And the two of you will show what the guru can do.

                                                                    If, at that point, you're worth, the Goddess will summon you. To Berkeley. She'll probably send Glenzz to Walnut Creek, but for you most likely to Berkeley. And the rest is up to the Goddess. Can't tell you what will happen next, but She will.

                                                                    It's gonna be great!
                                                                    • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                      Thu, January 29, 2009 - 9:26 PM
                                                                      Dan was clearly beating off when he wrote this..........

                                                                      Now, as was stated for another hippie .....go wash your hair, and for gods sakes......your hands boy
                                                                      • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                        Fri, January 30, 2009 - 4:13 AM
                                                                        Hi everyone!

                                                                        I just wanted to say do to Tribes lame thread organization and the fact that I am too busy with my new job... I have stopped reading this.

                                                                        ok, off to work.
                                                                        • Re: Republican Attitudes

                                                                          Fri, January 30, 2009 - 7:52 AM
                                                                          Yes, this has reached it's logical conclusion

                                                                          till there is another incident with a white person killing a black person here in beautiful Oaktown.

                                                                          all other murders, please proceed at your former pace.........we promise not to notice or comment
  • tribes » Cities & Neighborhoods » Oaktown » topics »
    Misconduct by Jerry Brown, Ron Dellums, all the way down to Barack Obama led to the deaths of Oscar Grant, III, and WHO KNOWS WHO ELSE DIED?topic posted Today, 11:05 AM by Bob delete entire topic

    I am Bob, 57, into Burning Man events and any several cultural media, including sports and music. Feed birds and find out WHY you want to include me in events, as a friend, or not, since I am hard bird-team.

    Dire times are here, again! You may want media and a playa, who is tough enough to bear upon or who will bear down on a target, both. Be a friend, check out the vibes, since some of you all call yourselves what I may have been or am about to be, for an instant, only, got CHESTER F. AWALT H.S.? Now called Mtn.View H.S., this used to be Che High, in Disturbia, would you believe, class of 1969, me!

    Burning Man busted its best artist, in 2008, when one of them pyro'd the wood, too early, to foreshadow what will happen to bail-sail-fail superstar, Barack (Black Hole Sun) Obama, see also ARNOLD J. RIMMER, with an 'H' on his forehead to remind him what an insane Hussein he is, for causing the Barack H. Obama-memorial radiation leak, on board the RED DWARF mining spacecraft, deja vu, see also Chris Barrie, lately Angela Jolie's butler in LAURA CROFT, Tomb-Raider.

    Get it on, since the man is on fire, already. CAN YOU AFFORD NEVADA ASS-HATS? I CANNOT AFFORD NEVADA ASS-HATS! So what do you need burned, already?

    GET REAL, persons who are not from California and who need to notice CPC 404 and subsections, which you violate with aggravated Mann Act infractions, evaded in re US Code, particularly Title 18 and US Constitution, but also all laws and codes, applicable, are evaded.

    Obama affected OG III Fruitvale BART shooting, 1/1/2009
    Check out my political writings, such as this 360.yahoo/bobgnote blog entry regarding the Oscar Grant III homicide, about to get green briefed by my habeas petition, at least:

    On January 1, 2009, BART police beat then shot Oscar Grant, III. This was not the only killing, incited by President-elect BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, since his October 15, 2008 Debate III debacle, when he let McCain blow by how the power deals are 'robbing us of our wealth,' with media blockbuster JOE THE PLUMBER, so YouTube needs to know:

    Obama won't admit Jews are from Ethiopia yet, so we could get nuked up the Zuke over Is it real. But in the meantime, he let the Republicans cook the election, he chased Blago, Palis shot rockets, Illinois disputed Burris, and so cops shot OG III and at least several other young black men, about 22 or 23 years old, NOT JUST OSCAR.

    So when I told John Burris about my need for joinder in re C07 01399 SBA, he had his secretary blow me off. Obama is OFF. Let me tell you why stuff catches on fire!

    Obama also incited his Grandmother Madeleine Dunham to call him to her Hawaiian deathbed, to hear how he was actually born in Kenya, a reference to his apparent corruption, on TV.

    The $100,000 toolbag floated away from the Shuttle, and Blago referred to this, in his call to Rahm Emanuel, who reacted like the usual Obama gangsters do it, with a dirty trick and a purge, for King Dick the 7th. The billion dollar campaign got to Blago, or he wouldn't be lying down, for the trials.

    Gangster Obama sold hundreds of offices and measures to the Republicans, let Joe Wurzelbacher blow past Joe Biden, and the world explodes! GET A CLUE, this isn't over, yet.

    Look, TUBERS! Read this, get the bigger picture, take some action:

    Obama fronted deregulated energy until Debate 3, 10/15/2008. He said they were 'robbing us of our wealth,' but he let McCain and Joe W. claim offices and measures!

    A $100K toolbag floated, Granny Maddie died and said B.O. is Kenyan, and after the election, Blago complained and got chased.

    Mumbai rocked, Palis rocketed, COPS STARTED SHOOTING YOUNG BLACK MEN, 22 years old, worse than their usual, seasonal abuse, during oppression, for tyrants, inc. John Burris blew me off, and murderer Johan Mehserle walks, WITH THE SEVERAL OTHER OBAMA-RELATED COPS WHO KILLED AT THE END OF 2008 AND INTO 2009, as if Johnny Burris has ALL the police happily shagging Wanda and blasting other young black guys, without some sort of properly notified court!

    JOHN AND ROLAND BURRIS and all the other dangerous dicks or nixers or whatever need to smarten up and retire, from hazard and from incitement of riot, by aggravated Mann Act infractions, to incite riot, in the several states, as seditious conspiracy, see 18 U.S.C. and CPC 404, with Prop.64-affected CBPC 17206 neglected, for class recovery of unfair business infractions, illegally confiscated by Governor Schwarzenegger and all who illegally submitted Prop.64 and all other bills of attainder, for relief and rehabilitation, OR PURGE.

    See 360.yahoo/bobgnote.

    WHY DOES OBAMA FEAR TRUTH?

    Because James Brown found out B.O. was selling out to energy and media and cops, James Brown died, mysteriously. And then Obama's private school and corporate geeks kept me and my energy information out of his campaign.

    James Brown found out, Obama would support W.E.S. exemptions, for ripoff, inc., like WB and ATT and FOX and MSN, so corporations could put up fakers, like Eagles and Earth, Wind, and Fire, AC-ZZ, frauds, all, in competition with James Brown and the Band of Renown. HOW GROSS WILL THIS OBAMA-OAKLAND MESS GET?

    CAL was the place many of the Nixon-Carter-Reagan surveillance acts duped. Jerry Brown doinked Linda R. in Africa, Redford made it with Geffen-bird Barbra, in the movies, to lampoon Brown's everlasting corruption, as bad as any movie companies, which inhale spin leverage and churn cases, to ensure perverse features, would you believe?!

    But worse, JB found out Obama was cooking with Betty Nguyen of CNN, at the end of 2006, and he died, beaten from knowing he used to fine his dancers and backup singers $25, bindle money for any coke-head like Barack Obama or James Brown, but Obama was selling out the world, fronting for Republican positions, burning the world, while spanking it for Hillary, whose hubby Bill signed NAFTA and deregulation of energy, Bush hid the inflation, and now, Obama is fronting for bail and sail economics.

    Any fool or Michelle Obama should be able to see, you re-regulate BEFORE you bail or stimulate the illegal interests, with more illegal funding or cost-passing opportunities. BUT NOBODY REACTS, among millions of bureaucrats and media, charged with representation.

    At inauguration, FOX fronted for the burning of James Brown, with Cleveland Browns step-child Jim Brown, who needs to go see Eddie Griffin get past Jim's and everybody's other brother, Richard Pryor. It's a DICKY-DICK WORLD, Jim. Take a knee:

    Obama fronted deregulated energy until Debate 3, 10/15/2008. He said they were 'robbing us of our wealth,' but he let McCain and Joe W. claim offices and measures! A $100K toolbag floated, Granny Maddie died and said B.O. is Kenyan, and after the election, Blago complained and got chased. Mumbai rocked, Palis rocketed, COPS STARTED SHOOTING YOUNG BLACK MEN, 22 years old, worse than the usual, seasonal abuse.

    Gaza and Oaktown BURNED, only partly, for Dellumses and Reagans and any seven KING DICKS, evading review, with Jimmy-jim Brown waving at the smear he helped make.

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