On the quantum theology tribe I belong to, we have been talking about infinity. Since, I would love to see more action on this tribe... I put out this open discussion for all to enjoy. What is infinity? How can humans relate to it? How can you measure time in the infinite? These questions fill my brain with wonder. I could go on and on about it, but I would love to just get the ball rolling right now. What do you think?
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Seattle
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Re: Infinity?
Sat, April 22, 2006 - 11:50 AMAh! One of my favorite topics to debate.
I, personally, see no reason (outside of mathematical application) to believe in or utilize the concept of infinity. Nobody can EVER find or encounter it.
The multiverse view of quantum physics is perfectly content with using the number 10 to the 500th power to talk about the number of possiblities available for particles who are in superposition for themselves to manifest in. VERY LARGE, but not infintie. Perhaps someone here can inform me of any useful aspect of infinity. So far, nobody else has been able to convince me reasonably.
Looking forward to more input... -
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Re: Infinity?
Wed, April 26, 2006 - 9:42 PMYeah I agree, Kevin. My own view and experience of infinity is that it's always self-referential. Numbers only go up to infinity, by relying on incrementing the numbers that came before. Mirrors reflect "infinitely" by reflecting their own reflection. There are infinitely many "minds" since they all can simply think about the mind thinking about the previous level. I haven't found a definition of an infinite system, that doesn't seem to rely on including parts of itself in it's own definition. I can't say that I've actually researched it well enough, to say that this includes All infinite systems, though.
Still, if it relies on itself to define itself, that doesn't seem quite right for something substantial. -
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Re: Infinity?
Mon, June 12, 2006 - 1:50 PMGood point Rob, I always knew that our species didn't quite classify as "substantial" :-)
So without dragging this conversatrion into a debate about what is substantial and what is minutia, I would say that reliance upon self for definition IS the definition of infinity, and any object that uses such definition, (art, consciousness, etc...) can be said to be infinite.
in lak'ech,
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Re: Infinity?
Mon, June 12, 2006 - 11:31 PMThat sounds great. Infinite is just a word anyway, it cant encompass everything it means with letters/symbols and a sound. You know... its all such a wonderful gift, this thing we call infinity/god/endless names and ideas...
Happy day to all.
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Re: Infinity?
Mon, May 21, 2007 - 4:58 AMhi, i just joined, and couldn't resist to reply to this one :)
these words of william blake have been keeping me busy lately, thought they'd be appropriate:
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.
i think that "eternity" has been keeping many minds busy throughout history. hopefully quantum phyiscs can open the doors for a better perception of this issue. otherwise, as some of you said, it seems impossible for a finite mind to perceive infinity. -
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Re: Infinity?
Wed, May 23, 2007 - 9:35 AMHopefully some of the stubborn energy that lingers among objective scientist will soften up a bit. What I mean by this, is that theories in QP are woven into a landscape of ancient mystisism, shamanism, and spirituality. These things are connected, and it would be nice to see more people in science open up to these ideas.
I know that science is objective at its core, but everything changes. Now with the knowledge that physical matter only makes up a small portion of our universe... you would think more people would wan't to dive into the quantum mysteries, or at least be more open to it. I don't know where I'm going with this. I'm lost in the infinite mysteries too... hehehe -
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Re: Infinity?
Wed, May 30, 2007 - 1:49 PMi dont not claim to know anything about this matter...
here is just a thought..
could infinity be that matter cannot be destroyed...that is changes form...isn't that an infinite thing? -
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Re: Infinity?
Wed, May 30, 2007 - 1:50 PMby matter i mean energy...forgive the typo -
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Re: Infinity?
Wed, May 30, 2007 - 7:12 PMit's possible, but then what is the practical ramification or application of that, would be my question...
Thanks for the input, though. This tribe needs it. -
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Re: Infinity?
Thu, May 31, 2007 - 12:30 PMThe practical application is a realization that time and space are effected by perception.
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Re: Infinity?
Thu, May 31, 2007 - 12:29 PMI think our little primate brains can not fully Grok infinity, at least not at this stage of evolution. Time and space are related, as show by Einstein, and are factors of one another. Perception has allot to do with how we measure things. Different cultures have different measurements of time, for instant, the Mayan Calendar. But for our own local universe, I think we do in part measure things by changes of state from one to another, or from static to kinetic. -
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Re: Infinity?
Sun, June 3, 2007 - 8:01 PMwhy does there have to be a practical ramification or application. Perhaps it just IS. AND I agree that we cannot fully grasp the concept of infinitity...although we are trying. Hvae any of you watched the movie "The Fountain"??? It speaks to this topic in a beautifully understandable way... -
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Re: Infinity?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 8:43 AMAgreed, there does not HAVE to be a practical application. I only find that a knowledge and awareness of ones personal models of time and space can put thing in perspective, and help you to see the big picture, which many miss. There have been moments when I have felt as if I have touched the face of the infinite, and I often contemplate the vastness of the universe when I look up at the sky. Can one count to infinity? Would you want to? Ends and beginnings are marking points of refference, like navigation beacons. They help us measure things. When you get near the speed of light/energy, thats when things get interesting.
Been wanting to see the fountain since it came out. Its on DVD now with lots of extras I am told. -
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Re: Infinity?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 1:30 PMObviously there is no CORRECT answer; it's just my opinion. I personally find that if there is no practical use on any level for an idea, then to some (large) degree it is (as the description implies) useless. So far, the only practical use for infinities are in mathematics (and there they are indeed useful, but that is abstract; it is not "real"). If you can assert that there is a practical function of considering infinity, even if it is just as far as perspective, then I am all ears, and am more than happy to oblige and engage. However, after MUCH and LONG consideration about the matter over several years (I still have much more thinking to do), I currently don't see how the concept of infinity covers any interesting ground that a REALLY, REALLY large amount doesn't also cover. And, to me this matches up better with our (my) understanding of the universe. (Though, I will admit, as was pointed out earlier in the thread), the possibility, that given that our universe is thought to be a zero-energy system, it is possible that it will continue for an infinite amount of time. But, then I ask, again, what is the significance of this, to us? How does this affect how we look at and relate to the universe? This is what is important to me. How ideas affect how we look at things. We won't be able to exist within the universe for infinity, unless we become light beings, and then if we did become light beings, infinity would still be meaningless, because there would be no such thing as time anymore. -
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Re: Infinity?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 6:04 AMI think you may have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. In one sense, to apprehend or understand infinity is to experience the cessation of the perception of time and space as we currently experience. Imaginary numbers in Mathematics are thouhgt to be infinite strings, but that is only because we currently lack the ability to compute them out to the nth point. For our practical purposes, they can in one sense be though of as infinite because of our inability to know them fully.
Contemplating the infinite?....well thats for us poets and "spiritual" types.
Knowing the infinite or even getting close, may be what some call "Enlightenment". If not its part of the pie.
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Re: Infinity?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 1:09 PMexcept for the "inadvertently" part? ;-)
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