Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

topic posted Mon, July 30, 2007 - 6:46 PM by  Unsubscribed
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(Article from "The Wild Hunt" a Pagan blog by Jason Pitzl-Waters - www.wildhunt.org)


It is time to have a frank discussion about polyamory within modern Paganism. It is time because the issue of multiple spouses has hit the mainstream, thanks to the new HBO series "Big Love". "Big Love" is about a fictional Mormon family who has broken away from a corrupt polygamist compound and their attempts to live in "normal" society while hiding their lifestyle.

The sexual and moral ethics of the cultures presented in the show have little to do with the free-spirited and often gynecentric culture of polyamory. While both polygamy and polyamory deal with multiple romantic and sexual partners, the gulf between the often abusive and patriarchal values of traditional polygamy and the careful, often queer-friendly atmosphere of typical polyamory is wide. It is thanks to this gulf that few reporters have made the connection. But as conservative religious reporters seek to make the issue of multi-spouse families into a "liberal" one, you can bet that stories tying the two lifestyles together are right around the corner.

Modern Paganism should be concerned about polyamory being plunged into the sexual morality culture wars, since a great number of our leaders, authors, and activists are openly polyamorous. This includes Oberon and Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart, Isaac Bonewits, Raven Kaldera (author of "Pagan Polyamory"), Joi Wolfwomyn, and Elizabeth Barrette (Managing Editor of PanGaia), amongst many others.

Modern Paganism is one of the only faith groupings that have given a full welcome to polyamorous families and individuals. Not even the ultra-inclusive (and ultra-liberal) Unitarian Universalists have welcomed poly families in any official sense. Yet for years now, Wiccan, Pagan, and Heathen groups have been officiating and giving blessings to poly marriages and their rites of passage. Freed from the notion that any sexual impulse outside those approved of by the dominant monotheisms is sinful or harmful, Pagans have generally been free to decide on a small-scale and individual basis what lifestyles are the "correct" ones for ourselves. This has been to our great credit. But now we need to prepare ourselves for a possible savaging from a media interested only in scandal and spectacle.

I predict that newsmedia are going to start looking for their own local "Big Love" stories. The chance of a Pagan poly family getting interviewed is going to be high. Those who would like nothing more than to discredit our faiths will hold us up as examples of the "slippery slope" that occurs when you allow LBGT folks equal human rights.

Some Pagans may be tempted to write off, or at least closet, our poly folks, in order to continue to obtain the incremental mainstream acceptance we have gained. We musn't give in to this urge. If anything, our national and regional groups need to be ready with accurate, compassionate language that accepts polyamory as one acceptable choice among many choices open to those who worship in a Pagan faith. We must stand our ground and differentiate how a Pagan approach to a multiple-partner relationship is radically different from the more paternalistic strains found amongst some Mormons and other religious fundamentalists.

There are times to go back into the "broom closet", and of course we want to pick our battles wisely. But I think that the stakes will soon become too high to not speak truth to power on this issue.
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  • j
    j
    offline 15

    Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

    Thu, August 2, 2007 - 8:41 PM
    media.mnginteractive.com/media...ly.jpg

    sorry, had to do it... :-D
    • j
      j
      offline 15

      Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

      Fri, August 3, 2007 - 4:24 PM
      i guess the real laugh is that the brewery's in utah (park city)

      yes, :-D
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

        Sun, August 5, 2007 - 4:45 PM
        I have found many friends both within and without the Polyamorous Community, being a Workshop Leader in the Bi Community and having also lead workshops surrounding Polyamory, etc. I feel motivated to write a reply w/regards to the Connection that seems to be aligning itself w/Mormonism based on "Big Love." Mormonism lifestyles are totally different and apart from Polyamory, if anything we need to make this more clear than anything. While I'm not of the Mormon religion (more of an Old Time Religion (the oldest) type gal here that's probably obvious.

        I'm not sure how many of you know of "Loving More," the Polyamorous magazine out in print and/or of the two annual, one east, one west coast Poly conferences each year however I thought I woudl point folks in that direction as in a great way to learn more what the reference to Polyamorous is all about and in reality it's many things to many people but i would ask that folks please not align it with any form or fashion of a Religious or Spiritual Nature, I know Christians who are Poly and Pagans who are Poly and I know Poly's who are Quakers and Poly's woh are Pagans but I don't believe I've ever met a Polyamorous Mormon (just a thought really) but I'm sure if I did we could share on some level at any rate. I do Comparative Theology but I've never dived into the Mormon aspects and/or the Christian Scientist as of yet but def hope to one day after ones more along the interest of my PaganPathways have been complete. Anyway, just a lil thought. Now off to get a lil food to eat. Bright Blessings / Happy Thoughts / And a Blessed Mid-Summer To All, Blessed Be, Skyspirit.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

          Thu, August 9, 2007 - 1:18 AM
          I suppose I am technically a poly Mormon... But then I view Mormons as many view Jews... as more a culture and ethnicity than a faith... but I won't go into that now. I was raised mormon and am now a druid and in my studies over the last ten+ years I have found that if forced to be christian that would be the one for me... But Poly can go with any faith just like vegan, or anyother lifestyle choice.

          However, the LDS church, I can most certainly attest, would not condone said lifestyle, as they would indeed lump it in with Polygamy. Which is no longer a church practice, though there are loopholes but I am in no mood to spout off deep church doctorine here and now.

          any way I think I started this post with a point and lost it somewhere in my babble!

          NT
          Saja lynn
          • dj
            dj
            offline 0

            Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

            Wed, April 9, 2008 - 11:29 PM
            Hi, I am new so pls forgive my reply to an old thread. I joined so I could add something.

            I too was a Mormon. I was not born into it but I converted with my moms consent when I was 15 years old. I am now 45. I spent alot of time studying. I am suprised that no other Mormons have mentioned something else about the polygamus lifestyle from the day.

            If you read (I cant recall exactly where it is in the D and C) you will discover that during the early 1840's when Joseph SMith was being persecuted for his new religion, he and his followers ferried from state to state to escape from it. They were more or less pioneers. Many women were left as widows with children and no one to support them, for one reason or another. Some men were lynched or shot or hung. Some were just killed by mysterious circumstances.

            Now this was the day when women were not like they are now. They couldnt just pickup and go get a job. They were also expected to rear their children and keep the family going. This really bothered Mr. Smith. He wanted to keep everyone together and he didnt know what to do about it and so he prayed for the answers on what he should do. After a few unsuccessful prayers (I dont know what else you want to call them) it was finally revealed to him from the "lord god" that he should marry some of these women and encourage the other elders to do so as well. Not only was it the right thing to do in the eyes of the lord, he was also told that it was a blessing to have more than one wife. They couldnt legally marry in the eyes of the law and so it was a spiritual marriage because after all their spirtuality had much more meaning to them than the laws of men.

            In his time, there were many who didnt agree with polygamy but did say that it was honorable that he had left no women behind with their kids to fend for themselves. What kind of a man would he be if he left them to fend for themselves? Many people could interpret just what kind of a blessing multiple wives were. But I think that even though having extra mouths to feed and support, extra children to clothe and feed and love AND to also tithe to the church....that would not be easy and so they looked upon it as god would bless them in greater ways to make their hardships seem small.

            I think that many people along the way mostly from FLDS have interpreted that into how polygamy is today within their sect, where lots of wives gets you a higher place in heaven. And I am not sure how they came up with "keep sweet" or how they justified a wife at age 14 or 15 but that practice was not common even in the 1953 raid. (teen wives)

            I dont mean to stir anything up and it is with respect that I post.

            By history we see a pattern where a lot can be disorted or interpreted to a mans thinking or liking. Some say this is true of Joseph Smith, some say the same for Osama bin Laden and his jihad. The Koran does not teach their faithful to go out and kill infidels on an hourly basis (I read it thru and many muslims will tell you the same) yet that is how those radicals perceive it to be. In the early beginnings of the LDS, the doctrine did not say to go out and get as many pubescent girls as wives and force them to have sex and treat them badly, yet that is how most FLDS view plural marriages today.

            "Oh, you're a polygamist or polyamourist...you live on a compound and marry teen girls and have 20 kids!"

            I dont have to repeat what others have already said but I will agree with the comment that was made about Mormonism being more of a culture or ethnicity just like Jews and when I say Mormonism I do not mean off shoots.

            I am polyamorous and I believe polygamy can work. It needs a framework of honesty and trust and commitment and is not for the faint of heart. Hows this for a mix.....I am an initiated Gardnerian that is now practicing more ecletic. I am also native american (Metis-Ojibwe). I have 4 kids. I am married to my husband for 2 years but we have been together for 20. We have a blended family, my kids, his kids and our kid. We said that when we could be legally wed in our religious beliefs that we would do it and we did. We had a native/Wiccan ceremony/hand fasting done by a minister. This is our 3rd marriage each. I am lucky that my mate has the same beliefs as I AND that he holds some that I do not. (As above so below). Maybe thats what makes it work. I am also hard of hearing and I am soon to be deaf. We have had alot of trials and ordeals that would have made others give it up (we lost a son) but we made it work. They key was communication, after all its just as hard to argue in sign language than it is by voice! LOL We have always agreed that another wife would be a good thing for us and that when it was right it would happen. Until then only the god/dess can tell.

            Thankyou for allowing me to share and to be here and ad my little blurb,

            DJ
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

              Sun, April 27, 2008 - 10:20 PM
              thank you DJ for your insights and experiences. I must agree that a wife will come when it is right!

              also thanks for explaining why polygamy made sence in the time of Joseph Smith. I would have done so but at the time when I posted it just seemed like too much to put down in the time I had.

              Blessings to you and your family!

              NT
              Saja lynn
        • j
          j
          offline 15

          Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

          Fri, August 10, 2007 - 3:43 PM
          "Mormonism lifestyles are totally different and apart from Polyamory, if anything we need to make this more clear than anything."

          I agree...but, fact is is that Joseph Smith was supposedly told by the hebrew god (or some entity, or he made it up) that polygamy is the way to go....it WAS apart of the mormon lifestyle until 1904 when it was banned due to pressure from the US government

          "i would ask that folks please not align it with any form or fashion of a Religious or Spiritual Nature, I know Christians who are Poly and Pagans who are Poly and I know Poly's who are Quakers and Poly's woh are Pagans but I don't believe I've ever met a Polyamorous Mormon (just a thought really)"

          i agree with you here as well....but seeing Mormonism with a history of polyamorism is not aligning polyamorism to the religion in the sense that one is equal to the other

          i see your overall point, in that it's not wise to define polyamorism in regards to anything but polyamorism (unless, of course, the topic was specifically polyamorism within the context of a religion), and i appreciate you bringing that to people's attention

          "Words are power"...."Sticks and stones may brake my bones, but words will never hurt me"

          I agree with both of these....i think stereotypes are great for wholesome humour, but not great for bigot humour

  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

    Wed, August 15, 2007 - 10:49 AM
    i don't really see the connection. polyamory is freedom. polygamy is a form of slavery. polyamory is the freedom to worship the goddess ("all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals"). polygamy is slavery to one man and one god.
    • j
      j
      offline 15

      Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

      Wed, August 15, 2007 - 6:34 PM
      polygamy, by the way, is not one man and multiple females...that's called polygyny, which is a type of polygamy....polyandry would be one female multiple males....and all of these are forms of polyamory anyhow...so what exact type of polyamory and what exact type of polygamy are you even discussing?

      polygamy may be slavery...may not....i think that a viewpoint that will only see it one way is bound to view another as slavery...splitting things into "this ones the good one, and that one's the bad one"..."my way or the highway"....no offense, but i feel it's too easy to pass things off that we don't agree with as something that must involve some moral wrong...and, IMO, all types of polyamory can be slavish as well, no doubt!....depends on the individuals, depends on whether the partnerships are consensual (whether emotionally, physically, etc.) or not...(though of course consent is a modern connote of western, poly lifestyle, doesn't mean that it always is involved)
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

        Thu, August 16, 2007 - 9:10 AM
        Good points. Monogamy can be a form of slavery too. As soon as you get into traditional romantic ideas about owning another person just because you are married to them, you have slavery. To own another person is to own a slave. Jealousy is all about ownership, "he(she) can't have him(her)! They belong to me!" Jealousy is a learned behavior. We begin teaching this early -- all those little valentine heart candies with the little sayings on them, like "Be Mine" etc.

        But I've jumped the track here.

        When I think of polyamory I am thinking of multiple husbands and wives in an egalitarian relationship. This is probably better defined by the term "polyfidelity" though.

        When I think of polygamy, I am thinking of the Mormon family with x number of wives and on all controlling patriarch, or the Muslim sheik with his harem (which goes back to the ownership thing, as they frequently purchase these women).

    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

      Thu, August 16, 2007 - 11:33 PM
      Okay I must get this out there as I find myself not able to allow bashing of any sort for any faith as I do not like bashing on mine so be it for all.

      Polygamy is no longer a Mormon (LDS) practice, it is not condoned in any way and when a person chooses it as a lifestyle choice they are quickly excommunicated! There are small groups of Fundamentalist Mormons (FLDS) which are largely located throughout southern Utah and Northern Arizona as well as western Colorado that do follow the principle of polygamy.

      There are many happy loving homes throughout the US that have one husband to 2+ wives and are associated in some manner to the FLDS. And there are also people within abusive oppressive homes associated with the FLDS.

      I understand that the media has ran with the idea that people who practice Polygamy are evil pedophiles that sell their daughters to old men to be raped and forced into having 20 children, however, as all Catholic Priests are not child molesters so are not every FLDS (or other offshoot Mormon church) member the same.

      Ignorance breeds ignorance people the Iraq war is good. GEE WHIZ!

      All of what I say is due to many moons of study into my personal family history as well as the culture that I was raised in and among! And were I have never been a member of or associated with a Polygamy family situation, I can see where it could and does work in a lot of the same ways that Polyamoury does! Mind you that all lifestyle choices have roses and thorns. Be you monogamist, polygamist, polyamourist, polyfidelitous, pansexual, homosexual, heterosexual, transgender, transsexual, etc. there are no lifestyles that are all peaches and cream people.

      And to pass judgment on one through ignorance is to allow ignorant judgment to be passed onto yours!

      As I have said before I am Druid and Poly. But Mormonism is the culture that raised my person no matter how open minded and free spirited my mother was and taught me to be! So where I do not practice Mormonism nor any of its off shoots I cannot say anything of it that is at all negative without proof, much like I would not say anything negative without proof of any other faith.

      But now again I babble!

      Many Blessings

      Saja lynn
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

        Sat, August 18, 2007 - 1:27 PM
        I didn't really mean to trample on the Mormons that way. In the past I have enjoyed neighbors who were Mormon -- really nice families who would do anything for you and didn't try to convert me. I also interacted with them at Scouting events (I was a BSA leader when my sons were growing up) and found many to be rabid environmentalists. I find their history fascinating (I grew up not far from Nauvoo IL (sp?)), and suspect that those early Mormons got a bum rap from historians. And, they have a kind of slant on "Thou art God" that is worth a look at. Lastly, if you are interested in your own family history, Mormon genealogy sources are the only game in town.

        As far as your point, <<There are many happy loving homes throughout the US that have one husband to 2+>>. The statistics show that the majority of Polyamorous groups (even the Pagan ones) are triads with one male and two females, so yeah, maybe we have little to carp about. :)
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

          Sun, August 19, 2007 - 1:05 AM
          Honestly El I did not feel that you trampled on Mormons. perhaps step on the toes :D

          And yes, they do have a facinating approach to "thou art God/ess" Honestly I find more Former mormon pagans than any other faith and not only in Utah but WA, ID, NV, CO, really just about anywhere I have travelled in the US. It, imho, is more pagan than even Catholicism!
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

    Wed, September 5, 2007 - 9:17 AM
    Polyamory has taken a lot of hits from TV. Dr. Phil had a guy on last winter who claimed to be poly, but his wife was not, and she wanted nothing to do with it at all. It was my impression that the guy was more a swinger than poly anyway, and Dr. Phil saw right through him. Unfortunately, it was Phil's first exposure to the word, so now he probably thinks all Polys are like this guy.

    A much better exposure happened in the early '80s on the old Phil Donahue Show when members of the Kerista Commune were on his show. I thought that was very positive, but nothing like that has been seen since.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

      Wed, September 5, 2007 - 2:39 PM
      we could go on Dr phil! lol it would be interesting...and luckily noone in either of my Boyfriends family would ever watch Dr. Phil (as my mother is the only one that approves of such things)
  • Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

    Mon, February 8, 2010 - 10:38 PM
    I notice a lot of people on here saying not to list polyamory or polygamy as a religious tenant. Polyandry (or one woman having multiple husbands) however is a religious tenant of many "old school" Pagans based on the clause of "Thigh Friendship". Thigh friendship is the belief that a womans body is not only sacred but her own and is at her discretion on who may find pleasure in it. Though men had poly-amorous rights, they had to get approval of EVERY wife they may have had before taking on another partner whereas women were not required to even inform her husband or husbands of the same choice. This all stems from a Goddess based culture society that is Thousands of years older than the Christianized faiths that bastardized everything they believe from other cultures. It is also an understandable practice as women often need more love and affection than one man can provide whereas men normally do not have this need. Also take into account that men can fertilize many women at the same time, whereas a woman can only become pregnant once at a time. It is time for the real Pagans to step up and own their faiths rather than letting the Christianized form of paganism (Wicca) to speak for us. Too many misconceptions were out there in the world to begin with and the Wicca culture speaking for all Pagan sects rather than their own alone has worsened it. Goddess Bless you all
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

      Tue, May 18, 2010 - 12:37 AM
      I am quite curious about what you speak to in this posting, your words show a firey passion... please do share.

      blessings :)
      • Re: Paganism, Polyamory, Polygamy

        Tue, May 18, 2010 - 9:53 AM
        "It is time for the real Pagans to step up and own their faiths rather than letting the Christianized form of paganism (Wicca) to speak for us."

        Excuse me, Karianna, your hatred and prejudice is showing.

        I too would be curious as to where you found your information. But without the religious intolerance, please.

        Thanks,
        Thuri

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