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Hey guys, tonight I happened by the Half Price Bookstore and, as often occures, I found a book that I've been wanting to add to my personal Library for a while, now: TGE Powell's "The Celts"! Anyway, he said exactly what other Celktic scholars have said: that the Celts had a type of inter-tribal religion whereby the singular male god of each tribe (personified by the chiftain, pressumibly) was mated to the tribal land-goddess, rather than having a polytheistic religion as so many Pagans often imagine. Hey, a later scholar (Barry Cunliffe) even used the exact same illustrative examples as he: Th Daghdha and The Morrighan. Moreover, based upon the evidence found in material culture, iconography, and medieval textual sources most (if not all) of the deities we have on record are merely different manifestations of epithets for each other. In other words (which is also based upon my research) The Morrighan is an identity (rather than merely associated with) Anu, as well as Challeach, Eire, Samain, and other named goddesses from the Continent who I can't think of right now.
So, I was wondering, is anyone present, aware of any theologically-based terms or denotations that can describe such a religious belief [examples of the sort of therms I'm after are: henotheism, polytheism, monotheism, et al.] ? I ask, of course, because if I describe it in these terms, and even seem to hint at (despite the evidence of my argument) a schema whereby "all gods are one god, and all goddesses are one goddess" I'd be pilloried as not only a "history revisionist", but a "Fluff Bunny" of the highest degree, because everyone has been told that such a schema is an invented fiction with no bases in ancient history that was advanced by we "Wiccans" (though I do not call myself by that title, because of it's "Fluffy" connotations, these days).
By the way, in re-reading many of my books by noted Celtic scholars (specialists in the field), I see that all of them are firm in their belief that the Insular lit. [the great Irish epics] represent and reflect the ancient Irish paganism to one extent or another, and are filled with evidence of gods and goddesses. But, when one reads Hutton's "The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles" he says with authoritarian zeal that these texts represent no pagan evidence nor present deities of any kind! How can he make these claims when they are no only so extremist, but atypical, and contrary to what actual specialists in the field of Celtic Studies are saying? Personally, I was also skeptical about his claim that he had Miranda Green read his sections on Celtic history when they were so far divorced from his actual views! One wonders what sections of his book she *actually* read? But, sadly, far too many Pagans uncritically cite Hutton, as though he is representative of all of academia (his authoritative voice is obviously detrimental in this regard; would it kill him to admit when he's speculating and use blatant qualifiers when a topic is still opoen to conjecture like European scholars are so fond of doing?!), when he's not--and they just don't understand that, I'm afraid. And, this is most worrisome of all!
Another thing that really bothers me about Pagans, as a whole, is their seemingly desperate NEED to pidgeon-hole certain so-called "Dark"-Goddesses, such as the Kali Ma and the Morrighan! As a result, if one doesn't define them as essentiually blood-thirsty, despite actual evidence to the contrary, they are labled with the upmost scorn! Kali is a primary example of this and contemporary Pagan ignorance to how She is factually worshipped! Unless one views Her as dangerous and threatening (even Deborah Lipp someone castigated me--as she is a Kali worshipper--for suggesting anything to the contrary, despite actual Hindu worship) in spite of the fact that Kali is generally not offered blood sacrifices (unless, of course, by the seeming fringe element) and in a great many districts (even in the US) she is viewed (even physically when Her statues are hewn) as compassionate and loving! But, we Pagans tend to remain ignorant of this evidence, and should we happen to hear it, we disregard it with blatant cavalear! But, my own goddess--The Morrighan--is another story.
In the following article: wicca.timerift.net/gods/morrigan.html The author sites one "historian" named TW Rolleston and goes on to claim that "historiants" (plural!) are against identifying the mother-goddess, Anu, with the Morrighan. But, how CAN they be when it's actually in the Irish epics where The Morrighan is listed as another identity OF (rather than a mere alternate "aspect" or association with) Anu! So, what "historians" is she talking about; and how can this Rolleston fellow be against this comperison when it's in black and white? I flipped through the book in question at the Half Price Bookstore, and Rolleston doesn't say; he just claims that another scholar identifies the two deities (as if they are seperate and entirely distinct personas), but he disagrees with such a position. Ugh... Crap like that makes me want to bash my red head in! LOL!
Okay, enough ranting from me, guys. ;o)
So, I was wondering, is anyone present, aware of any theologically-based terms or denotations that can describe such a religious belief [examples of the sort of therms I'm after are: henotheism, polytheism, monotheism, et al.] ? I ask, of course, because if I describe it in these terms, and even seem to hint at (despite the evidence of my argument) a schema whereby "all gods are one god, and all goddesses are one goddess" I'd be pilloried as not only a "history revisionist", but a "Fluff Bunny" of the highest degree, because everyone has been told that such a schema is an invented fiction with no bases in ancient history that was advanced by we "Wiccans" (though I do not call myself by that title, because of it's "Fluffy" connotations, these days).
By the way, in re-reading many of my books by noted Celtic scholars (specialists in the field), I see that all of them are firm in their belief that the Insular lit. [the great Irish epics] represent and reflect the ancient Irish paganism to one extent or another, and are filled with evidence of gods and goddesses. But, when one reads Hutton's "The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles" he says with authoritarian zeal that these texts represent no pagan evidence nor present deities of any kind! How can he make these claims when they are no only so extremist, but atypical, and contrary to what actual specialists in the field of Celtic Studies are saying? Personally, I was also skeptical about his claim that he had Miranda Green read his sections on Celtic history when they were so far divorced from his actual views! One wonders what sections of his book she *actually* read? But, sadly, far too many Pagans uncritically cite Hutton, as though he is representative of all of academia (his authoritative voice is obviously detrimental in this regard; would it kill him to admit when he's speculating and use blatant qualifiers when a topic is still opoen to conjecture like European scholars are so fond of doing?!), when he's not--and they just don't understand that, I'm afraid. And, this is most worrisome of all!
Another thing that really bothers me about Pagans, as a whole, is their seemingly desperate NEED to pidgeon-hole certain so-called "Dark"-Goddesses, such as the Kali Ma and the Morrighan! As a result, if one doesn't define them as essentiually blood-thirsty, despite actual evidence to the contrary, they are labled with the upmost scorn! Kali is a primary example of this and contemporary Pagan ignorance to how She is factually worshipped! Unless one views Her as dangerous and threatening (even Deborah Lipp someone castigated me--as she is a Kali worshipper--for suggesting anything to the contrary, despite actual Hindu worship) in spite of the fact that Kali is generally not offered blood sacrifices (unless, of course, by the seeming fringe element) and in a great many districts (even in the US) she is viewed (even physically when Her statues are hewn) as compassionate and loving! But, we Pagans tend to remain ignorant of this evidence, and should we happen to hear it, we disregard it with blatant cavalear! But, my own goddess--The Morrighan--is another story.
In the following article: wicca.timerift.net/gods/morrigan.html The author sites one "historian" named TW Rolleston and goes on to claim that "historiants" (plural!) are against identifying the mother-goddess, Anu, with the Morrighan. But, how CAN they be when it's actually in the Irish epics where The Morrighan is listed as another identity OF (rather than a mere alternate "aspect" or association with) Anu! So, what "historians" is she talking about; and how can this Rolleston fellow be against this comperison when it's in black and white? I flipped through the book in question at the Half Price Bookstore, and Rolleston doesn't say; he just claims that another scholar identifies the two deities (as if they are seperate and entirely distinct personas), but he disagrees with such a position. Ugh... Crap like that makes me want to bash my red head in! LOL!
Okay, enough ranting from me, guys. ;o)
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Sat, February 16, 2008 - 6:20 PMOn theological terms: polytheism and monism need not be mutually exclusive - while monotheism and monism should be very carefully distinguished from each other. I don't think the term monotheism makes any sense unless it is used to refer to people who explicitly reject any God other than their own "one God". People who might talk about "one God" but who do so in a "universalist" sense - that is they accept other Gods (as just other manifestations of the one God) - are not really monotheists. They are just monistic pantheists and/or henotheists who are being careless with their words.
The idea that individual Gods are "real" does not automatically exclude the possibility of also viewing all Gods as, looked at from a different perspective, "all one". A monistic view sees EVERYTHING as "one". But that doesn't prevent us from seeing that there are individual human beings in a very real, tangible sense. So why not individual, separate, "real" Gods? This an important issue for contemporary Hindus. Hinduism is very often described as "monotheistic" - very often by Hindus themselves. But nobody has more Gods than the Hindus!! If both Calvinism and Hinduism are both monotheistic then the word doesn't mean anything at all.
But if you have to pick one term, henotheism is the most accurate, in my opinion. But I still prefer plain old polytheism. If you have many Gods then you have polytheism. Nice and simple. Even if, in some sense, "they are all one" - well, in another sense they are also quite "real". -
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Sun, February 17, 2008 - 6:41 PM>>>But if you have to pick one term, henotheism is the most accurate, in my opinion. But I still prefer plain old polytheism. If you have many Gods then you have polytheism. Nice and simple. Even if, in some sense, "they are all one" - well, in another sense they are also quite "real".<<<
Oh, I used "henotheism", etc. as REALLY rough examples of what I was getting at. I was just wondering if there were any "-theism" root denotations that might express what the evidence I have found and what scholars seem to be saying...
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Mon, July 27, 2009 - 8:06 AMThis is an old thread, but there are some points here worth discussing I think. Regarding the issue of scholarship, I've always thought that Hutton stands out as one of the very few, if not the only professional scholar who is a self-admitted pagan. Whether or not you agree with his ideas, his work is at least informed by a non-Christian perspective, and because of this I think he is rightly critical of the medieval tales precisely because they were written from firmly within the Christian tradition. He goes further than I would, however. I agree with McCone's perspective (Pagan Past and Christian Present in Early Irish Literature) that the medieval Irish Christian tradition was far more open to pre-Christian ideas and cultural elements than other traditions of Europe. This does not change the fact that all the material was altered to some degree in order to agree with the new Christian teaching, but that's a topic for elsewhere.
As for Celtic 'deism' (perhaps 'divinity' would be a better choice?), the question of 'true' polytheism vs. a more Hindu-esque perspective, where there is a divine pluralism within what is essentially a monotheistic religion, is a good one needing at least to be addressed. I would like to see here a discussion informed by personal experience, i.e. people bringing in anecdotes of personal encounters with respective deities / entities and then giving their account of how these experiences indicate some aspect/s of our larger reality. -
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Thu, July 30, 2009 - 3:15 PMThis is an old thread, but there are some points here worth discussing I think. Regarding the issue of scholarship, I've always thought that >>>Hutton stands out as one of the very few, if not the only professional scholar who is a self-admitted pagan. Whether or not you agree with his ideas, his work is at least informed by a non-Christian perspective...<<<
I, personally, would argue that it's BECAUSE Hutton is Pagan that he reached the extremist conclusions he did! And, why no one publicly censured him for misrepresenting his sources and the work of scholars who do not actually present evidence that agrees with his conclusions is beyond me. Of course, he also has a few other habits that seriously must be broken: he can no longer put forth his personal opinion as though it is established fact; he cannot take a source or two and them declare that it is representative of an academic consensus as he has done; he cannot keep using Logical Fallacies; and I could go on and on...at least it seems like he's stopped employing academic intimidation tactics!
>>>...and because of this I think he is rightly critical of the medieval tales precisely because they were written from firmly within the Christian tradition. He goes further than I would, however. I agree with McCone's perspective (Pagan Past and Christian Present in Early Irish Literature) that the medieval Irish Christian tradition was far more open to pre-Christian ideas and cultural elements than other traditions of Europe. This does not change the fact that all the material was altered to some degree in order to agree with the new Christian teaching, but that's a topic for elsewhere.<<<
But, here, Hutton entirely dismisses with a swipe of his hand the greater, and far more academically sound Indo-European sub-strate! And, this is a dearly unfortunate theme throughout his biased polemical rants. Hell, even the Archaeology from Britain and Gaul bears out an incontrovertible mythic Irsh-Celtic testament preserved in the medieval texts; even an Indo-European...even Eurasian theme, when the hearth-goddess motif and Brighid is discussed (I've written a paper all about the Eureasian hearth-goddess cult)
However, at least Hutton has started to come around to his sense: I have it on VERY good authority that he now agrees with, and accepts, the European academic consensus in that medieval witchcraft- and peasant-beliefs represent a thriving Indo-European shamanic pagan survival! He only, now, differs upon the method of diffusion. He printed this in an article he contributed to a book on the Scottish witchcraft trials. However, it was a damned shame he did not include it, or even discuss his new-found conclusions in his latest, "Witches, Druids and King Arthur" where his words would have had far greater impact amid his Pagan accolites.
Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan
PS: There are several other Pagan scholars, such as Tanya Lurhman, Shelly Rabinovitch, and Susan Green (I think that's her name...without looking), and don't forget Chas Clifton. And, I may be as well, if I can ever to first afford to get my Masters in history! -
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Thu, July 30, 2009 - 9:04 PM"Biased polemical rant" is a marvelously intense phrase and would be positively delicious if it were'nt so tropic. To be perfectly honest, I have neither the inclination nor a sufficient store of examples taken from his work to completely refute what you say. I will say, however, that his uncompromising still almost almost reconciliatory tone in his April 2000 article in Folklore ('Paganism and Polemic: The Debate over the Origins of Modern Pagan Witchcraft') was very refreshing and I found very few of his points problematic from a scholarly perspective. It's true that I have not read everything he's written and little more of the debates in which he works, but I've not seen any glaring errors yet.
Now, I am a little confused as to what is less academically sound than the Indo-European substrate. The linguistic data that have given rise to the current consensus (and it's barely worthy of the word) is so vast on the one hand, involving such a large number of language families, and so limited on the other, targeting a narrow lexical cross-section common to all, produces a result enormously susceptible to imaginative tweaking. That's where the fun comes in, I think! It's barely falsifiable and, when the material culture is brought to bear on it, capable of producing the most shockingly circular arguments. The relationship between Christian and pre-Christian Celtic culture during the first four centuries of its historical period is sure footing by comparison.
I'm not saying that I dispute Indo-European theory, or even that survivals of European pre-Christian belief do not show some kind of survival of Indo-European cultural facets. I'm only saying that I would never vociferously censure anyone who expresses a deep and critical doubt regarding it. I have always read Hutton as expressing such, but I may have been giving him quite possibly too much benefit of doubt. Harriet Lutzky's article in the 1993 Journal of IE Studies ('On a Concept Underlying Indo-European Terms for the Sacred') is a marvelous work of scholarship, but I think its implications are that cultural elements possibly seen as IE survivals are more than likely newly formed along lines determined by cultural memory ... if that makes any sense. This is of course makes a huge difference in issues of authenticity.
Anyway, thanks for the other names. I'm not familiar with their work and will start looking them up ASAP. -
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Thu, July 30, 2009 - 11:37 PM>>>"Biased polemical rant" is a marvelously intense phrase and would be positively delicious if it were'nt so tropic. To be perfectly honest, I have neither the inclination nor a sufficient store of examples taken from his work to completely refute what you say. <<<
What follows are some grave examples, taken from Hutton, of his rather inexcusable behavior (others have also reviewed his work and found it wanting on these very serious grounds: www.suppressedhistories.net/arti...html) He also exemplifies his stance and attitude as a polemicist quite admirably in a discourse with freelance journalist, Janine Farrel-Robert, after it was made blatantly clear to him that the late Prof. Norman Cohn, in his obsolete vitriol (and also a polemical work!) "Europe's Inner Demons", demonstrably lied about Margaret Murray, and forever ruined her credibility as a direct result. This article has, since, led many Pagans to compare Murray's writings with Cohn's allegations, and sure enough they've been finding the same thing as Janine. Cohn's argument, in a nutshell, was that Murray purposefully omitted any fantastic details from the accounts she was quoting from in order to give her readers a misleading impression that they wouldn't otherwise have been fooled into by her if she had only included them. After Cohn's book was published, historians praised it, and most Witchcraft scholars use it to such an extent that it seems to have absolved them from actually having to read Murray's works themselves. However, the fact of the matter remains, in all but one instance did Murray omit what Cohn claims she did--in fact, she considered the counter-evidence VERY carefully. And, that single instance of omission would not have rendered her thesis inept, either. I might charge that Cohn commits the exact historical crimes for which he has charged Murray: demonstrable misquotation in an effort to misdirect his readership. He faults Murray for using ellipses, when he does so to the extent that it leaves his readers incorrectly believing that Murray had omitted whole swaths of data, when she didn't. Despite Janine's testimony, it didn't really seem to matter to Hutton, who continued to tender is unyielding support to Cohn long after in his more recent book, "Witches, Druids and King Arthur".
I recall one instance quite well of Hutton leveling intimidation towards historians reading his material that might, otherwise, endorse the Green Man figures as remnants of Pagan gods in any way, shape or form when, in his Pagan Religions, he declared that "no one with a real knowledge of the Middle Ages" would uphold such a thesis! But, quite the contrary, a specialist scholar, the author of the monograph, "St. George" (her name escapes me, now...as the books down stairs) provides a wealth of evidence for the foliate images being directly traceable to pre-Christian cults and worship. His books are also generally full of ad hominem rants that really have no place in the work of any historian, unless they are intended to color one's readers against a certain scholar or authority, as he does to Carlo Ginzburg's material. Hell, Hutton mitigates the importance of Ginzburg's material to such extremes that it's not even funny! There are many authors whom Hutton assures of agree with his position and conclusions, but...uif you were to actually read their material, you would find quite the opposite, such as the work of Kieth Thomas who discusses many examples of medieval Pagan survivals, and Prof. Monter who regards many medieval testimony pertaining to "green devils" as local pagan Witchcraft fertility cults! Hutton does a great disservice to these authorities by misrepresenting their works as he has done. Although, for all I know, Hutton might not have even read some of these books, like Monter, because he confided to Donald Frew, once, that he frequently pronounces judgment upon a thesis or book before he's ever actually read the material! Now, as for Special Pleading (this is the ONE Logical Fallacies that tends to piss me off above most others), he exemplifies this brilliantly when he draws a conclusion based only upon the similarities of certain evidence (in his Pagan Religions it's when he's dismissing the Rune Poem as absolutely non-Pagan Christian beliefs!), despite the fact that the dissimilarities carry far greater weight than the similarities...but, he refuses to acknowledge them. Anyway, elsewhere in this book, he chastises another scholars (I can't remember whom, right now) for drawing conclusions based solely on the similarities, when those differences were inconsequentially weak by comparison!
>>>I will say, however, that his uncompromising still almost almost reconciliatory tone in his April 2000 article in Folklore ('Paganism and Polemic: The Debate over the Origins of Modern Pagan Witchcraft') was very refreshing and I found very few of his points problematic from a scholarly perspective. It's true that I have not read everything he's written and little more of the debates in which he works, but I've not seen any glaring errors yet.<<<
Oh, that article really should not be read without reading the article to which Hutton is responding! I have read Frew's original article, and they are hardly arguing on the same grounds. In fact, Hutton's appraisal of Frew's article seriously didn't reflect the actuality of the data and academic genius that Frew had published! Frew supplies ample evidence, none of which Hutton seemed to desire to explain or counter directly. I also found it rather low that he tried to re-write Ginzburg's "Night Battles" by attempting to redefine what is and is not a "trance"! Hutton concluded that the Benandanti were not in a trance, but just having unusually vivid dreams! WTF? The medieval clerics recording these events new that they were not merely dreaming, because when the Benandanti went lethargic, they could not rouse them, despite their best efforts! But, what Hutton WILL accept as "a trance", he doesn't say; he just declares that this cannot be (and is NOT) a trance! But, then, what is? That's a perfectly valid question. Oh, and I could go on, and on, with the habitually problematic nature of Hutton's material, if I were to re-read them all over again.
>>>Now, I am a little confused as to what is less academically sound than the Indo-European substrate. The linguistic data that have given rise to the current consensus (and it's barely worthy of the word) is so vast on the one hand, involving such a large number of language families, and so limited on the other, targeting a narrow lexical cross-section common to all, produces a result enormously susceptible to imaginative tweaking. That's where the fun comes in, I think! It's barely falsifiable and, when the material culture is brought to bear on it, capable of producing the most shockingly circular arguments. The relationship between Christian and pre-Christian Celtic culture during the first four centuries of its historical period is sure footing by comparison.<<<
To shore yourself up on the latest in IE studies, I would highly recommend anything you can get your hands on by ML West [Indo-European Poetry and Myth is brilliant]; JP Mallory, and David W. Anthony's extremely erudite text, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language".
>>>I'm not saying that I dispute Indo-European theory, or even that survivals of European pre-Christian belief do not show some kind of survival of Indo-European cultural facets. I'm only saying that I would never vociferously censure anyone who expresses a deep and critical doubt regarding it. I have always read Hutton as expressing such, but I may have been giving him quite possibly too much benefit of doubt. Harriet Lutzky's article in the 1993 Journal of IE Studies ('On a Concept Underlying Indo-European Terms for the Sacred') is a marvelous work of scholarship, but I think its implications are that cultural elements possibly seen as IE survivals are more than likely newly formed along lines determined by cultural memory ... if that makes any sense. This is of course makes a huge difference in issues of authenticity.<<<
Hutton may not accept IE Studies, but that gives him no justifiable right to ignore it as a science when it can provide some insights into the field he is studying, qualifications aside. Indeed, there are so many Eurasian elements disclosed in the various hearth-goddesses, that Hutton would be hard-pressed to dismiss Brighid as a goddess, as he has so thoroughly in the past. Recently I was able to trace the hearth-goddess cult back to it's most likely mean origins in the shamanic cultures of Siberia and Mongolia, which is roughly where Gimbutas and other subsequent archaeologists have placed the "kurgan" invaders (though more recent archaeologists have adopted a term less emotionally charged).
>>>Anyway, thanks for the other names. I'm not familiar with their work and will start looking them up ASAP. <<<
Oh, far from those, I seriously believe that you should read the work of European witchcraft scholars, as their supporters, such as Eva Pocs, Carlo Ginzburg, Emma Wilby, Prof. David Lederer, Katherine A. Edwards, Anne Llewellyn Barstow, Prof. Phillipe Walter, Prof. Claude Lecauteux, and German anthropologists/ historians, Christian Ratsch and Wolf Dieter-Storl, amid dozens of others whom I just can't think of at this late hour. They have proven that medieval witchcraft-beliefs preserved and sustained local shamanic Indo-European fertility cult! -
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Fri, July 31, 2009 - 8:21 AMFair enough. You've certainly sparked a resolve to test Hutton's work further. As for the other scholars you mention, which - oh, say five or so - would you suggest beginning with? -
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Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?
Fri, July 31, 2009 - 10:37 AMWell, their work is all equally valid, and very frequently proves one of the others' arguments, chiefly by showing how geographically persistent a belief happens to be, as Prof. David Lederer does when you compare his article in "Werewolves, Witches and Wondering Spirits" with the work of Eva Pocs ["Between the Living and the Dead"]. When you read Pocs' work, however, as with most European scholars, they generally have not taken into account the uber-skeptical back-lash from British academia, so you need to draw your own substantive parallels, and fill in the "blanks" that way. For example, she argues that the medieval Hungarian St. Lucy Stool is an Indo-European shamanic phenomenon; and it absolutely is when you recall the tripod (as with the St. Lucy Stool) of the Prophetess at Delphi; the stool on which a Germanic seeress would also sit to prophecy; and (so I have heard...I'd love to verify this) there's also the Irish "thinking stool" on which a girl would be placed to clairvoyantly locate a lost item. Though, I would personally start with Ginzburg's "Deciphering the Witches Sabbath"--sadly, a lot of Gardnerians, in particular, who have fawned over Hutton, pull no punches when they equally mitigate the importance of his work, because it absolutely can be said to verify some of Murray's positions. Also, another scholar of great importance is the work of Carmen Blacker in "The Witch Figure" (a collection of academic articles). There's also Gabor Klaniczey. But, after Ginzburg, I think that Emma Wilby's book on the Cunning Folk might be a good next move.
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