was there ever a time when there was no Paganism?

topic posted Tue, November 13, 2007 - 1:59 PM by  offlineCornel
It has come to my attention that many people believe that modern day Paganism cannot possibly be linked to any pre-Christian religious traditions, because those traditions were all wiped out without a trace. According to this theory there must be a "no Paganism gap" in European history during which time the psyche of Europe was spiritually sterilized of all Pagan influences.

The problem with this is that it is a "testable hypothesis". That is, it would be, IF anyone were to ever actually commit to when exactly this "no Paganism gap" occurred. So here's your chance, people! When did "the gap" take place? All entries must include both a starting and ending time - but these can be approximate (to within 100 years).

Extra credit will be given for any explanation of how you determined the proposed dates.

I realize that this post has the look and feel of a "challenge", but I will refrain from critiquing any proposed candidates for "the gap" unless I am specifically asked for my opinion.
posted by:
Cornel
  • RS
    RS
    online 3
    >It has come to my attention that many people believe that modern day Paganism cannot possibly be linked to any pre-Christian religious traditions, because those traditions were all wiped out without a trace.>

    Who are the people who believe this?

    >The problem with this is that it is a "testable hypothesis". >

    Actually, that would be a null hypothesis. It would have to be falsified by showing that there *is* a demonstrable historical connection between modern paganism and some pre-Christian tradition. Easily done in the case of Norse heathenism and Classical traditions, impossible with Wicca, and probably worth testing with certain other forms of modern pagan belief.

    Best,
    R.S.
    • >> Actually, that would be a null hypothesis. It would have to be falsified by showing that there *is* a demonstrable historical connection between modern paganism and some pre-Christian tradition. <<

      Sometimes a diagram helps - consider the following simple "time line":

      HISTORICALLY ATTESTED PAGANISM ------->X NO PAGANISM -------->Y MODERN PAGANISM

      Unless one can, at least approximately, specify times "X" and "Y", then modern Paganism becomes literally continuous with historically attested Paganism.
  • Well.....you might find it interesting to note that Donald Frew found,m wile working closely with a majour University, unequivocal evidence for pagan religious survivalism into the modern era throughout some European territory. But, it's in danger of being razed due to "progress". I could find this source for you, if you wish--it's on-line and was publiushed in an article through The Pomegranate, I believe.

    So, with the theses advocated by nearly EVERY SINGLE specialist historian/scholar writing and teaching throughout conbtinental Europe, India and Asia (sometimes with DOZENS of advanced degrees in the subject, as Gabor Klaniczy; or teaching at formiddible institutions, as Claude Lecauteus, who teaches at The Sorbonne), as well as the somewhat "circumstantian evidence" (because detractors allege that it's open to interpretation) of the Calusari and Bendanti, it seems that those scholars who claim it "completely died" (as Hutton alleges, despite citing scholars who completely disagree with this point!) is relatively untenible!
    • >> Well.....you might find it interesting to note that Donald Frew found ... <<

      I'm always interested in what Frew is up to. At one point I heard he was working on a Pagan response to the writings of the New Atheists - which I think is a wonderful idea! If you have any specific information about the work you mentioned I would appreciate more details - if you have them handy.

      That being said, I don't think the idea of Pagan continuity lives or dies on the basis of one particular "pathway" for that continuity. In my opinion there are many different such pathways. This is, of course, the normal case for any religion. There is not one path by which all Christians trace their religion back to Jesus - there are many different narratives of the history of Christianity, many of them mutually exclusive of each other! The same is true of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Hutton's hypothesis, on the other hand, does inescapably make the claim that there was some well-defined period of time in which there was no Paganism in Europe.

      The claim that there is no Pagan continuity does, in fact, live or die on the basis of showing that some DISCONTINUITY exists. Hutton gets away, somehow, with vaguely impying that there must be such a discontinuity - but neither he, nor anyone else who agrees with him, is willing to put their money where their mouth is.
      • >>>I'm always interested in what Frew is up to. At one point I heard he was working on a Pagan response to the writings of the New Atheists - which I think is a wonderful idea! If you have any specific information about the work you mentioned I would appreciate more details - if you have them handy.<<<

        Hey, Curt! The article from The Pomegranate is called "Harran: Last Refuge of Classical Paganism".

        Hmmmm....apparently, the Virtual Pomegranate site is no longer up, where this article was housed! Q'uelle strange...! But, someone was kind enough to e-mail many of the details about this article to me, which is how I had first heard of it:

        Harran: Last Refuge of Classical Paganism, by Donald H. Frew

        "I now believe that a direct line of transmission can be traced from the Hermetic and Neoplatonic theurgy of late antiquity to the beginnings of the modern Craft movement."
        "In response [to the closing of the Academy at Athens in 529ce], many Neoplatonists ... fled "to the East", specifically, to Harran. There, they founded a Neoplatonic academy that survived ... up into the 12th century."

        "... in the 11th century ... Michael Psellus ... received an annotated copy of the Hermetica from a scholar from Harran. It is quite possible that these were sacred texts that had escaped the decline and ultimate destruction of the temples."

        >>>Hutton gets away, somehow, with vaguely impying that there must be such a discontinuity - but neither he, nor anyone else who agrees with him, is willing to put their money where their mouth is.<<<

        Is it just me, or does Hutton and his ilk often get away with merely taking it at face value that Paganism completely died, without actually *proving* it; rather, all they claim is that the evidence we have for it's survival is simply "not evidence" enough! However, it should be blatantly remembered that Hutton has blatantly misrepresented many of the scholars he cites as being in agreement with him--many *actually* claim that yes, there *was* Pagan beliefs, practices and worship going on through the early-modern period. So, one wonders how he as been able to get away with this! After all, *I* would be terrified of being exposed--wouldn't you? Moreover, one must wonder what lead him to do this, to begin with? What convinced him that this was even a good idea, or in any way appropriate!
        • Re: was there ever a time when there was no Paganism?

          Thu, November 15, 2007 - 12:31 PM
          >> Is it just me, or does Hutton and his ilk often get away with merely taking it at face value that Paganism completely died, without actually *proving* it; rather, all they claim is that the evidence we have for it's survival is simply "not evidence" enough! However, it should be blatantly remembered that Hutton has blatantly misrepresented many of the scholars he cites as being in agreement with him--many *actually* claim that yes, there *was* Pagan beliefs, practices and worship going on through the early-modern period. So, one wonders how he as been able to get away with this! After all, *I* would be terrified of being exposed--wouldn't you? Moreover, one must wonder what lead him to do this, to begin with? What convinced him that this was even a good idea, or in any way appropriate! <<

          Those who insist on the "death" of Paganism do so because that is what they wish to believe. If this were not so, then someone, somewhere would be able to answer the question of when and where and how it was that Paganism "died". Since its proponents cannot articulate any such clear objective basis for their position, it follows that the belief that Paganism is "dead" is just something that people choose to believe in. Which is fine - it's a free country. People should be free to believe whatever they want.

          So the real debate is essentially ideological. But what is the basis for this "ideological dispute"? Hutton and his fans are uncomfortable with any kind of "radical" Paganism - a Paganism that sees itself in conflict with anglo-american white middle-class "modern" "western" values. The bourgeois, white-bread culture that Hutton wants to accomodate is, however, a thoroughly Christian culture, and therefore Christianity must be exonerated of any wrongdoing in its 1700 year campaign to extirpate Paganism (even to the extent of expressing gratitude for the "moderating role" of the Holy Office of the Inquisition as Hutton does in Triumph of the Moon). So Hutton promotes a kinder, gentler view of Christianization - according to which the "old" Paganism just died peacefully in it's sleep. It was all over very quickly and even "tidily". Nothing to get worked up over.

          This is also precisely the view of Christianization promoted by those short-sighted scholars who have jumped onto the "Pagan monotheism" bandwagon. The "theory" that "Pagan monotheism" served as the missing link in a peaceful, gradual evolutionary change from Paganism to Christianity (a change that was so peaceful and gradual that it was hardly even noticed at the time!) has been uncritically and enthusiastically embraced by Hutton (in Witches Druids and King Arthur).

          But if ancient Paganism is viewed in any kind of genuinely positive, sympathetic light - then one immediately assumes that there would be people who would resist Christianization - which obviously there were. A comparative approach - looking at other cases of religious persecution (such as that of Judaism in late 15th century Spain, or that of Christianity in 16th century Japan) - would also immediately lead one to realize that religions can and do survive under precisely the kinds of conditions that Paganism began to face in the 4th century. Unless one takes such cases into serious consideration one is treating the suppression of Paganism in Europe starting in the 4th century as an ahistorical, "exceptional" event - which is exactly how Hutton treats it. But as soon as one takes a genuinely historical and comparative approach, one starts to actively look for evidence of Pagan survival, and, voila, it is everywhere.

          Only if one starts out by blindly accepting the self-serving triumphalist propaganda that Christians have been peddling since the 4th century, does one BEGIN with the assumption that Christianization quickly and easily led everywhere to complete extirpation of Paganism. Once one starts from there, and then demands "proof" of Pagan surivival, what inevitably follows is a set of "arguments" to dismiss the mountains of evidence for Pagan survival. All of these well-rehearsed "arguments" turn out to have their origins among Christian "scholars" and "historians" going back to Eusebius, Augustine and Orosius 1600 years ago (including especially the "Pagan monotheism" meme).
          • Well said, Curt! And, while I have long-since held that Hutton is an extremist zealout (which seems to get forgotten by not only Pagans, and scholars, but also scholas who are Pagans!), no one has yet told me how Hutton was actually able to misrepresent hius sources (including Ginzburg, whom he treats rather ruthlessly, claiming that his material is not evidence of any kind, becauyse he and British oxbridge have not first pre-approved it!). How was he, academically-speaking, able to say that "Paganism didn't survive", and then proceed to cite various scholars "in agreement with him", yet...if one actually reads those books, they find *exactly* the opposite! This, I must maintain, is a serious and mendacious offence for which there is simply no excuse! How can even his academic peers allow it to go on unnoticed?

            That being said, Curt, you mentioned that '[b]ut as soon as one takes a genuinely historical and comparative approach, one starts to actively look for evidence of Pagan survival, and, voila, it is everywhere." Well, it is worth noting (obviously) that Hutton has long-since regected any comperative approach in any way, shape, or form; regardless of the fact that he sometimes employs it, but only when it hypocritically suits his own ends! Another concern I've long since had of Hutton is how he can claim that the differences are FAR more imporant than any similarities, when the differences may be simply irrelivent due to how slight in comperison it is; all the while, he has often based his own "arguments" on soley the similarities, which he has claimed to reject. WTF?!?! *shrugs*

            Rock on, Curt!
            Wade

            PS--He *really* thanked the Inquisition for it's "moderating" approach in "Triumph"?! DAYUM! On what page did he write THIS! That's like someone thanking the Nazis of Hitler for being so "nice" during WWII, or disregarding the torture that Gays underwent under that regime (and even rejecting that we were targeted!). Though, one wonders where he pulled his number asbout 40,00 victums from re: the Inquisition in his "Pagan Religions", 'cause he doesn't say or make *ANY* sort of argument for it--he just states it matter-of-factly, as though he shouldn't have to prove or quantify it!
            • >> He *really* thanked the Inquisition for it's "moderating" approach in "Triumph"?! DAYUM! On what page did he write THIS! <<

              Sadly - this is the party line for the revisionist Burning Times Debunking Brigade - headed up by people like Norman Cohn, Bengt Ankarloo and and Wolfgang Behringer - and of which Ronald Hutton and Jenny Gibson are junior members. I'll see if I can find a good quote from Hutton - it's possible that I conflated him with other people who have actually done research on the the witch trials (which Hutton has not - he just repeats what other people have said).
              • >>>...people who have actually done research on the the witch trials (which Hutton has not - he just repeats what other people have said).<<<

                Y'know, he DOES do this! I wonder why this hasnb't occured to anyone reading and citing his books? Howver, he doesn't always accurately represent what these men and women he's citing are saying, we must remember. he actually makes it look like they are making statements that they *never* did in a highly revisionist obscurantist "polemic".
                • Re: was there ever a time when there was no Paganism?

                  Sun, November 18, 2007 - 12:41 PM
                  Salem witch trials
                  Tituba was the first person accused of being a witch in Salem Village which eventually led to several other men and women in Salem and the surrounding areas to be accused of witchcraft[4].

                  Tituba was first accused by 9-year-old Betty Parris, minister Samuel Parris’s daughter, and her 11-year-old cousin Abigail Williams, who also lived in the Parris home. The two girls claimed to be bitten and pinched while they slept. The girls also began having fits, seizures, and comatose trances, which were eventually blamed on Tituba after Dr. Griggs diagnosed an "evil hand" upon the girls. The girls' claims included accusations that they felt Tituba in their dreams pinching and biting them, then whispering in their ears to cause their fits[5].

                  Tituba was believed to practice folk magic, and indeed led a group of village girls in specific divinatory practices from time to time. It is known that the Parris’s neighbor, Mary Sibley, asked Tituba to bake a witchcake, a cake made from rye and the urine of the afflicted girls, which they then fed to a dog. When the dog fell into fits as well, the girls grew dramatically worse.

                  Tituba was formally accused of bewitching the two girls on March 1, 1692, and brought forth in a hearing with two other women of the village, Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne.

                  Tituba at first denied that she cast a spell on any of the afflicted girls, now numbering at least a half-dozen, but when pushed confessed to witchcraft and implicated the other two women accused, as well as mentioning that there were other witches in the village as well. The ensuing search for witches led to more than 170, and perhaps as many as 300, people being arrested for witchcraft, with twenty executed for the crime.

                  Tituba remained in custody for the duration of the Salem witch trials. Parris refused to pay her jail fees after she was cleared; instead, an unknown person from Virginia paid her fees in the amount of seven pounds. Tituba's ultimate fate is unknown.


                  ....................

                  From History Channel shows I have seen Tituba was said to have separated eggs for
                  seering, as well as other practices like summoning spirits by candle light,
                  whether these things took place or not is totally irrelavant, but what is relevent is that
                  the practices were know of by the girls or by those that accused them. Such being so,
                  the practices must have been in effect somewhere.
                  tasseomancy, examining animal sacrifice entrails, or lithomancy is common today or
                  among the ancient mariners known as pirates. No time has been without supertitions
                  and supertintions are the fossils of magical practices.

                  Applician mountain folk magic is quite well shown and matches those practices by
                  Voodoun, Cuban Santeria, Yoruba, Romanian folk magic, As well as the
                  supertitions of The Orthodox Romanian Church, the Egyptians, Shinto, Tibetian healing,
                  and Native American traditions.
                  These practices can be found categorized in P.E. I. Bonewits "Real Magic" and the
                  superstitions of all regions can be found to be employing these priciples in one
                  form or another.


                  Randy
                  ******
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Globally--Paganism present throughout history
                    Continentally--Paganism present throughout history
                    Regionally--Paganism present, but with some possible gaps
                    Locally--Paganism present, but with some possible gaps

                    One way of looking at this involves lines of transmission/succession.
                    Rarely in a generally European context could we expect to find *unbroken*
                    lines of transmission/succession. (As we do with, say, the Catholic Church.)

                    But we might expect to find regional or local expansions of something
                    Pagan in flavor over a similar time frame. Something Pagan with
                    a range of flavors as influences surge and ebb in strength and as
                    different cultures come into and pass out of contact.

                    Paganism in a European context seems to have changed as traces of
                    earlier Paganism have been resurrected and as European cultures have
                    come into contact with non-European Pagan cultures, which have
                    often invigorated Pagan movements and interests.
                    • Just a brief note for now in response to Pitch's post:

                      Ancient Paganism on the European continent was in intimate contact with non-European Paganisms - and also there have always been a significant presence of non-Indo-Europeans in Europe as well - especially (but not just) the Etruscans.

                      My point being (briefly) that there has never ever been any such creature as "European Paganism". Nor has there ever been any variety of Paganism that is distinctly "European". No matter how conservative and close-minded the average Pagan may (or may not) have ever been - there has always been at least a minority of Pagans who were highly interested in what "everyone else" is doing. And from that group have come a great many of our Poets, Prophets, Priests, Healers, etc - all throughout our history. Just one example: wandering priests of Dionysos spread "the good news" all across Europe, the Middle East and North Africa even in the archaic (pre-classical) period.
                      • RS
                        RS
                        online 3
                        >My point being (briefly) that there has never ever been any such creature as "European Paganism". Nor has there ever been any variety of Paganism that is distinctly "European".>

                        What do you consider to be the non-European elements of pre-Christian Norse heathenism? Please be specific, including (1) the culture of origin of each such non-European element, and (2) the time and place at which such non-European elements were practiced by the pre-Christian Norse.

                        Thanks,
                        R.S.
                        • >> What do you consider to be the non-European elements of pre-Christian Norse heathenism? Please be specific ... <<

                          The religions of Germanic peoples was obviously influenced by Hellenism - as were the religions of all peoples who had any contact with Rome. Surely you are aware of that. And "Hellenism" was as much Asiatic and Egyptian as it was European - if not more so. Of course the influence, as always, went both ways.

                          For that matter Germanic peoples were also influenced by the Celts - who were not distinctly European at all - one of their major branches was in Asia. And Celts were also influenced by Hellenism - the author of "On the Gods and the Universe" ( www.goddess-athena.org/Encycl...dex.htm ) was a Gaul (Saturninus Secundus Salutius).

                          As for anything of greater specificity - that would be helped a great deal if those pre-Christian Norse heathens had thought to learn how to read and write - but as it is the only thing we might have from them in writing would be in Greek or Latin - and that would obviously show Hellenistic influences. Except, of course, for "Runic" inscriptions - and where do you think those "Runes" came from? Probably from Etruscan, Greek or Latin.
                          • RS
                            RS
                            online 3

                            Re: was there ever a time when there was no Paganism?

                            Tue, November 20, 2007 - 10:31 AM
                            >>>My point being (briefly) that there has never ever been any such creature as "European Paganism". Nor has there ever been any variety of Paganism that is distinctly "European".>>>
                            >>
                            >>What do you consider to be the non-European elements of pre-Christian Norse heathenism? Please be specific, including (1) the culture of origin of each such non-European element, and (2) the time and place at which such non-European elements were practiced by the pre-Christian Norse. >>
                            >
                            >The religions of Germanic peoples was obviously influenced by Hellenism - as were the religions of all peoples who had any contact with Rome. Surely you are aware of that. >

                            The question is not what I am aware of, but what you are aware of. So far, all you have offered in support of your claim of "no European paganism" is a vague assertion of Hellenistic influence. My question was, what specific elements of pre-Christian Norse heathenism do you consider to have originated in a non-European culture?

                            >For that matter Germanic peoples were also influenced by the Celts - who were not distinctly European at all - one of their major branches was in Asia. And Celts were also influenced by Hellenism - the author of "On the Gods and the Universe" ( www.goddess-athena.org/Encycl...dex.htm ) was a Gaul (Saturninus Secundus Salutius). >

                            Fine. My question was, what specific elements of pre-Christian Norse heathenism do you consider to have originated in a non-European culture?

                            >As for anything of greater specificity - that would be helped a great deal if those pre-Christian Norse heathens had thought to learn how to read and write - but as it is the only thing we might have from them in writing would be in Greek or Latin - and that would obviously show Hellenistic influences. Except, of course, for "Runic" inscriptions - and where do you think those "Runes" came from? Probably from Etruscan, Greek or Latin.

                            As I'm sure you know, there is a rich and varied corpus of documentation on pre-Christian Norse heathenism, of which the runic record comprises a small but important part. Obviously, the origin of the runes has no bearing whatever on the question at hand, which is non-European elements in pre-Christian Norse heathenism. Feel free to draw on accounts in runes, Latin, Greek, or Russian, as well as Old Norse in giving your examples.

                            Thanks,
                            R.S.
                            • Re: was there ever a time when there was no Paganism?

                              Tue, November 20, 2007 - 10:37 AM
                              >> As I'm sure you know, there is a rich and varied corpus of documentation on pre-Christian Norse heathenism <<

                              It is often helpful to give at least one example. Are you talking about actual primary sources - in which Norse Heathens explain their own religious traditions in their own words?
                          • >>>...the Celts - who were not distinctly European at all - one of their major branches was in Asia. <<<

                            Really?! Wow, can ya' cite some academic sources, please? I am in the process of researching the Sabbats, and I have founbd that the Celtic "seasonal portals" are also extent in China! So, I wonder where it's origins may lie, whether IE, or other; after all, February as the portal for Spring, as well as being a month at which Gabija (a hearth-goddess) is worshipped is extent in Lithuania! So, this is still a primary concern of mine! Got any advice?

                            Take Care,
                            Wade
                      • My sense of the original question was that it had to do with the
                        historical relationship between today's European-focused Paganism
                        and whatever varieties of Paganism existed in the European area
                        in the past.

                        I wasn't thinking about sorting out those historical cultures along
                        any sort of classification beyond their geographical location. So,
                        for example, if a Pagan historical culture occupied territory on
                        the Italian Peninsula, that would be sufficient to establish the
                        presence of Paganism.

                        What I had in mind when I mentioned contact between cultures
                        promoting Paganism in European contexts was more or less
                        recent contacts, such as that between South and East Asian cultures
                        and European ones that gave rise to movements like Theosophy
                        and such. Not contact during much earlier times (although I don't
                        doubt that such contact took place).

                        Myself, I do think that various cultures in Europe gave rise to distinct
                        Pagan pantheons, etc., that are different from those of, say, cultures
                        of ingigenous North Americans. Taken in aggregate, I'd describe
                        those pantheons, etc., as *European.* It's both convenient and
                        reasonably accurate for general discussion.

                        Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment, but it seems to imply
                        a sort of *all-Paganism-is-one,* rather than the notion that various
                        cultures in different times and locales gave rise to Paganism that
                        we can recognize according to things like continental geography.
                        *European,* for instance, as contrasted with *North American.*


                        • Re: was there ever a time when there was no Paganism?

                          Tue, November 20, 2007 - 11:04 AM
                          The Germanic peoples also adopted the seven day week - naming the days after Deities corresponding to the Helleno-Roman Deities. This ordering has always been associated with astrology and has obvious religious implications. Also, the Cathedral in Colonge (like most churches in Europe) is built on top of what used to be a Pagan Temple. One of the things left over from the old Temple is a very beautiful mosaic prominently featuring Dionysos (I was lucky enough to see this once in person while waiting to catch a train). Dionysos is likely an Asiatic Deity originally.

                          In fact, the onus is clearly on anyone who would argue that Germans were somehow never influenced by the religious traditions of their neighbors - which would make them freakishly unlike any other group of people who have ever walked the face of the earth (except, according to Herodotus, the Caunians).

                          it is of course of great interest to trace such influences in detail - but, again, this would be much easier had those Germans chosen to write about their own religious traditions prior to Christianization. I'm sure there is quite a bit of material in Latin and/or Greek, though. Wolfram specifically mentions, in his book on "The Roman Empire and its Germanic People", that "Neoplatonism" became very influential among German "elites" (as he calls them).
                          • RS
                            RS
                            online 3
                            >>>My point being (briefly) that there has never ever been any such creature as "European Paganism". Nor has there ever been any variety of Paganism that is distinctly "European".>>>
                            >>
                            >>What do you consider to be the non-European elements of pre-Christian Norse heathenism? Please be specific, including (1) the culture of origin of each such non-European element, and (2) the time and place at which such non-European elements were practiced by the pre-Christian Norse. >>
                            >
                            >In fact, the onus is clearly on anyone who would argue that Germans were somehow never influenced by the religious traditions of their neighbors - which would make them freakishly unlike any other group of people who have ever walked the face of the earth (except, according to Herodotus, the Caunians). >

                            Feel free to keep changing the subject as often as you like, but I will remind you once again of my question. There is no disgrace in admitting you cannot answer it, but please don't argue that the burden is on anyone but you to provide support for your original point. Germans are nice, Celts are fine, but what I've asked is whether you can identify any specific element of pre-Christian *Norse* heathenism that can be shown to have originated in a non-European culture.

                            Thanks,
                            R.S.
                            • >> Feel free to keep changing the subject as often as you like ... <<

                              In fact, the subject is the following question: "was there ever a time when there was no Paganism?". That is the topic of this thread.

                              >> I've asked is whether you can identify any specific element of pre-Christian *Norse* heathenism that can be shown to have originated in a non-European culture. <<

                              That is not a question. It is an assertion with a question mark on the end of it. If you wish to assert that "pre-Christian Norse heathens" had a racially pure "European" culture, then it is up to you to demonstrate that.
                              • RS
                                RS
                                online 3
                                So we finally agree, then, that when you asserted that "there has never ever been any such creature as 'European Paganism'. Nor has there ever been any variety of Paganism that is distinctly 'European,'" you were just blowing smoke, based on your unfamiliarity with the specifics of actual, historical heathenism?

                                Thought so.

                                Best,
                                R.S.
                                • >>> R.S.: So we finally agree, then .... <<

                                  Do you have anything to add to the
                                  actual subject of this thread? To refresh your memory, I posted a question in the form of a challenge - specifically asking if anyone was willing to propose a specific time in European history when there was no Paganism.

                                  In the course of discussing that question, another poster stated:

                                  >> Pitch: Paganism in a European context seems to have changed as traces of
                                  earlier Paganism have been resurrected and as European cultures have
                                  come into contact with non-European Pagan cultures, which have
                                  often invigorated Pagan movements and interests. <<

                                  To which I replied that:

                                  >> Cornelius: Ancient Paganism on the European continent was in intimate contact with non-European Paganisms - and also there have always been a significant presence of non-Indo-Europeans in Europe as well - especially (but not just) the Etruscans. <<

                                  I did not make a specific claim about any specific Paganism - but I did make a sweeping generalization about "Ancient Paganism on the European continent". If you wish to claim that there is a specific exception to this generalization with respect to "Norse heathenism" - then by all means state your case.

                                  In fact, however, all Nordic people have, of course, been in direct contact with the non-Indo-European Saami people as well as the non-Indo-European Finns since well before Christianity came along. Although they are not "Indo-European", the Saami and the Finns are obviously "Europeans" in other senses.

                                  Which brings us to the problem of defining what a "European" is. Europe is famously "underdefined by geography" - and I would challenge anyone to propose a coherent definition of what "Europe" is.

                                  But as far as any "pre-Christian Norse heathens" go - they certainly had no conception of "Europe" - and so to speak of them as having a "European identity" of any kind is quaintly anachronistic.
  • Jon
    Jon
    offline 3
    How can one say there was a time of no paganism in the Western tradition? All one has to do is to check the origins of Catholic practices. The Catholic church incorporated so many Pagan practices into its services so as to make it palatable to the newly converted. (see Return of the Vikings. Why now? on runewebvitki) Perhaps there wasn't a conscious manifestation, but it continued in folk practice.
    Jon
    • In addition to all the Pagan stuff that became "assimilated" (as in "resistance is futile") into Catholicism, there were other things, like Alchemy and Astrology, that were (out of sheer necessity) of course given a Christianizing veneer, but which maintained much more of a separate existence.

      And, in addition to the question of whether or not "there was any Paganism" - there is the question of whether or not "there were any Pagans". If "Paganism" during the Middle Ages is limited to just stuff that got assimilated into Catholicism - then there aren't necessarily any "Pagans" involved in that. So the existence of Paganism (at least in this minimal form) does not automatically imply the existence of Pagans - BUT the existence of PAGANS certainly does prove the existence of Paganism, no?

      Not only that, but the existence of Pagans gives us reason to re-evaluate "assimilated" aspects of Paganism within Catholicism. If there were, in fact, actual Pagans, conscious of their own Paganism, then they would also be conscious of the assimilated aspects of their religion within Catholicism. It must also be allowed that "conscious" Pagans during these times could (quite easily) also consider themselves to be Christian in some sense (albeit perhaps not in a sense that would be approved by, say, the Dominican Order).

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