The last Sunday I went to the fire jam I was shocked and amazed at the amount of cones, streamers, signs and banners with chalk directing people..... My Idea of fire jam consists of having safety information and equipment readily available and people responsible for that, possibly just making sure the fuel station was clearly marked, and having people just be there earlier to hang out, be polite and try to "Steer" the crowd rather than a dictatorship that controls it. I will not participate in the current safety standards or support them and probably will not be coming down to play until the place chills out some. It does not feel very comfortable anymore, seems like an all out war zone! I really appreciate what you guys are trying to accomplish and all the hard work you all have put into it, however I think is overkill.
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:01 PMit doesn't matter how much safety we had or how we did it... the Parks Dept. will be enforcing the now 2 year old 'no open flame' ordinance.
By what others have said it was just a matter of time before this happened.
I'm happy to say I helped enforced safety and got to enjoy the event for the last 4 weeks.... I am extremely upset with the Parks Dept. end say, but I am also hopeful of a new tomorrow and continued open communication with both the Parks Dept. and the Fire Dept.. I still think this is something the fire community needs to come together on and I welcome all view points... so far not many have stepped up to help shape and form this. -
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:13 PMWho is enforcing this? Who would they contact to shut the thing down? there is no leader...... I think if anyone planned on shutting the thing down it would have happened last year when someone was murdered there. The police come down regularly watch and enjoy, we have never had a problem with them..... Who are the parks and rec people complaining to??????? or is it going down because some upset people came to them with complaints and advice????? -
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:21 PMAll I know is what I'm passing on. I messaged you personally with information as I had it. I got no response.
I don't know who complained or why they are doing this now versus any other time. You can contact them directly if you have questions. That information was added to the flyers that were being passed out at the Jams as well as the C7.
Mark Warrington at the Portland Parks Dept. mwarrington@ci.portland.or.us
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 10:16 PM"I still think this is something the fire community needs to come together on and I welcome all view points"
that came out kinda weird.
I personally think more voices need to be heard on this, I personally would LOVE to see the fire community come together to get the PDX Fire Jam back... with more voices and more help.
Do I dare ask for another meeting?
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:24 PMCyndrr - I appreciate your perception of the set up that the volunteers established to support the fire safety regulations. During this short month, the volunteers made several modifications to the setup. Unfortunately you only saw one. Know that a lot of hours went into analyzing the situation and considering ways to approach this fairly. We remained focused on our purpose and our capabilities.
It's again unfortunate that you made a determination not to support the current safety standards as this is exactly what one of the concerns was. An attitude of us vs them is what was avoided by the larger population of fire performers at the jams these past weeks. If you had spent any time with the group of volunteers and the fire performers who have understood our goal and welcomed our efforts your vision would be more expansive.
Having been involved in this community for a very long time, I'm proud of the intense dedication that this small group of volunteers exhibited these past weeks. Our efforts were not in vein. Though the jam is being shut down by the parks and rec, we have established a foundation to begin a new conversation. They are open to this discussion. -
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 1:14 AMEnforce? With what? How?
We aren't the cops or even safety nazis. We had no power or authority other than our wish that the safety procedures we modeled would be picked up by other spinners, and become normal behavior.
We came on heavy with the signs and flags and cones so that they would be noticed. The intent was eventually to ease up on all that, keeping only the minimal signage and safety junk needed to keep people mindful of the basics.
It was beginning to happen.
Another six weeks and it might have developed into a self-regulating community. But that would have meant putting in 6 hours or more every Sunday for ten weeks, from each of the five or six of us who were willing to try. Don't know if we could have kept it up.
There were three or four people interested enough to tentatively join us. The rest, like you, couldn't find or make the time. Too bad. Not surprising, but too bad.
You work for what you love or you lose it. Sometimes you lose it anyway, but without trying you always lose it.
We're not entirely sure what Parks or the Fire Dept will do next. They may block off the area. They may cite people for open beer cans. They may enforce the No Open Flame rules that have been in effect for the last two years. They may demand the drummers get a noise permit, pay an event fee, and get insurance for every evening they're there. They may do something entirely different. What we do know is that the safety crew, us, won't be setting up shop there forthe foreseeable future.
The community had a choice between what we offered, and what Parks and Fire will offer. I don't know if they'll have that choice again.
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 11:49 AMNo, the community did NOT have a choice between 'us or parks'.
As was pointed out to me several times at the meeting, the Parks department, once put on notice by the Fire Department, Police Department, and their own ground crews (who MUCH thanked us for the sudden reduction in trash and debris), could not turn a blind eye.
Two years ago, the parks department would have come in and cleared out the drinking, and could (and WOULD) have issued us written permission to use the property. This could have been shown to the Fire Department, getting us a pinkie permit. Anyone spinning fire without a pinkie permit, or violating a pinkie permit by not respecting boundaries or spinning with gasoline, could have been issued a citation by PFD.
Visible drinking would stop, unsafe fire performance would stop. Which was all we wanted.
Unfortunately, as the parks pointed out repeatedly, they cannot come down on the one violation (drinking in public) without comind down on the other regulation (open flames).
So even though we LEAPT into action to handle the fire safety issue immediately, the parks department acted to shut the event down as fast as they heard about it - six weeks. We were merely a stopgap measure to keep anyone from getting hurt while the parks and fire got into motion.
Eric, I also thought about berating those who 'didn't help'. On the other hand, I think they made A right choice by refusing to participate in something they didn't believe in. It may or may not affect all Parks Department enforcement of "Open Flames" in the parks. It certainly is going to affect permitting/licensing in the next year. More threads on that soon. -
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 6:11 PMFirst off I would like to say that with a full time restaurant manager job of a business that is new and needs alot of work, and participating in 2 dance troupes one that meets 2 times a week, swapping room mates, then getting a 30 day notice on my house and trying to figure out where I am going to live. My schedule has unexpectedly become completely full until mid may.
Don't take it personally that I am not wanting to participate or play, it has nothing to do with anyone individually. I am not putting the blame on anyone. Yeah I think the way safety was handled was ridiculous and overly aggressive. I have been to many many professional performances in bigger and rowdier crowds and have never seen anything this far over the top. It adds aggression to the place and then begins the people fighting for turf... there are tons of street kids down there, they are already pissed off. It has been more productive in my personal experiences to be their friend and not yet another person enforcing rules, boundaries and regulations..
From what I have been told we have had the possibility of law enforcement shutting it down for years now.... and my opinion on that is well... it IS illegal! It was bound to happen and no amount of banners flags and signs is going to change that its still against the law. And there is nothing that we can do unless anyone can afford a permit.
I love the way everyone came together on this and I am glad that there are people that deeply care about the fire jam.... Thank you for all you have done in attempts to save the jam!
Tony
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 6:26 PMWell, at most events there is a much, much different attitude between performers and audience. The audience is 'the audience' and the performers are strangers. There's a sense of 'now'-ness to the show that allows for a large amount of effort to be expended because at some point it is 'over'.
For example, the first week we were there, the flags were laid on the ground as a boundary, with chalked marks to designate space. We spent a lot of time blocking with our bodies the a) intensely mentally ill person who walked right into Ari while he (an 8 year old) performed, b) the confused/drunk people who simply couldn't see it in the darkness, and the cross-traffic who got bumped around the line and found themselves walking right through.
Having the flags or caution tape even 2' off the ground entirely resolved that issue. It was really a little tense for fire safeties to take their eyes off of performers to perform traffic control. We simply didn't have enough people to do traffic AND do basic safety. So the flags, our most controversial insertion, entirely did the job for us.
And was getting easier and easier, as people got used to their presence.
and for the record, the number of people lighting themselves on fire at SpinJam is WAY higher than at any other event I have ever seen. -
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 6:44 PMWe had talked about slowly taking off the flags to the rope as a way of backing off the strong presence. I thought things were getting much better... with the audience, drummers, and spinners... and I've verbally told several people since, that Drayden, a staff spinner who was initially one person that scared the shit out of me... with dripping (flowing) fuel coming out the ends of his staff. I've seen so much change and a way safer spinner... I'm glad to have gotten to know him. I'd love to keep those connections in coming up with something everyone, including city, wants.
What would a dream Firepark look like?
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 6:46 PMPropane cannons! -
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Sat, April 26, 2008 - 5:13 PMi second that!! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: I hate to say it but.........
Sat, April 26, 2008 - 5:33 PMand all the lighting would be by gas flames
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 4:55 PMI have been drumming at these firejams for over a year now, and I want the spinners (and
everyone) back as soon as possible. I have to comment about "security" and the age-old
question: Who regulates the regulators?
A few weeks ago, when the fire area was first cordoned off, I, during the firejam, in a happy
(non-drunk) mood, unwittingly wandered into Fire Spinners Turf, whereupon an unknown
woman, apparently a self-appointed firecop, came up and pushed me. Keep your hand to yourself, and no thank you for the bad karma. I can't help it if you don't know how to speak,
or if you are jealous. I love the fire spinners; they add so much, and they draw people.
We neep people. We don't need totalitarians and bad vibes.
I'm still showing up. and I love you, rude woman, even when you don't smile.
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 7:13 PMNow I am just kind of interjecting something that I really don't know - may be hearsay or whatever, but could it just be something that umm, perhaps *cough*Potter*cough* is doing as another part of running the homeless out of Portland? As an itinerant person myself, I have noticed that there are a LOT of places that have "all of a sudden" caught the attention of certain public safety officials. All of this seems to be happening at all the same time. For instance, Burnside Bridge is now off-limits (on the west bank) as of the last month or so and more and more places everyday are seeming to come up with some sort of non-compliance issues.
Just my two cents, for whatever they are worth. I just find this interesting that throughout the entire city, stuff like this is happening to bar people from congregating. -
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Re: I hate to say it but.........
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 10:48 PMNo, in this case the parks department was alerted as a result of a fire department call that came from absolutely inappropriate fire performance behavior.
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