March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

topic posted Mon, March 31, 2008 - 2:19 PM by 
So last night, the biggest issues were a) the cross traffic behind and through b wanting to make more room for audience and c) performers who aren't actively performing walking around, visiting their friends, etc.


For cross traffic, we discussed having many, many, many more cones. I'm going to consistently vote against connecting stanchions with caution tape cause I don't like the idea of something in my way if I try to move backwards fast. I'm willing to be outvoted.

Over at the east side where the fire extinguisher was, over to the port-o-potties, and I want exactly that kind of barrier - stanchions/caution tape line. I DO NOT want any more random traffic behind.

Second, let's pull back a little from the painted area and give some more area over to audience, but still stop them at the same post. I really don't want the walking traffic over on the dirt in the north - they WILL spill out into fire safeties trying to watch performers.

Third, let's chalk on the ground a shaded 'entrance/exit' channel' to the fuel dump, encourage an on-deck location, and stop the snooty-snooty snarf snarfs from trying to show how cool they are by walking into 'backstage' to show that they are IN crowd. EVERYBODY walks around the Porto-potties, even ourselves.

I'm thinking that the north side is incoming fire performers (on deck 1, on deck 2, etc) and the south y the porto-potties is exiting back to the fuel dump for people coming off, and anyone who wants to talk to their friends can either go around to the first post (that was caution taped off yesterday) to talk to their buddies on deck, or walk around to the fuel dump.


;-b
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  • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

    Mon, March 31, 2008 - 7:45 PM
    since the homeless have vacated the area how bout moving the fuel depot back to the north side and then have the performs enter the from the north and exit on the south side and giving the restrooms and the single garbage can back to the spectators. One problem I keep seeing was the spectators having the go into the backstage area to place their garbage in to the garbage cans.

    Steve
  • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

    Mon, March 31, 2008 - 8:04 PM
    I know I am new, but I am not seeing how is it an issue to have people visiting their friends between their "performances"?
    The whole point of a fire jam in my opinion is to burn, and have fun, to some socializing is fun.
    I think last night actually went really well, the primary issues I saw were:
    a.) people entering the fire area. (I had to stop breathing briefly because a drummer entered my 'danger area' when I was actively breathing.)
    b.) as the evening got later, the use of safeties seriously declined.

    As far as people "backstage" I was not actively looking for that, but I did not personally see a lot of people around the fuel dump that were not fueling or in between "sets".
    I am all for giving the audience a bit more room from the west side so they can come further under the bridge, there was a lot of unused "backstage" room, I think the flame marking the beginning of the "stage" could easily and safely be moved east about 10ft or so.
    I'd honestly have to see it again to give any true distance suggestions, but I really do think it can afford to be moved.
    If this is done, the port-o-potties nearly become a part of the stage perimeter and there would definitely be less room for people to wander through.
    Place a safety station there (same area as towards the end of last night) and it's automatically covered.

    As for chalking of more zones, while I am not entirely against that, one thing I believe worth remembering is the more areas that are marked off limits, means more enforcement required. The more these areas are enforced, the likelihood of people wondering exactly what right we have to tell them where they can and can't go. Which in itself can cause some issues since push come to shove, as far as I know(I don't think the area is rented from the city is it?), we have no authority to really be enforcing off-limits areas beyond a verbal request in the name of safety. The more this is challenged, the more people may realize this, and the harder it can get to enforce anything.
    Of course this is me going off on my usual worse case scenarios.

    I think that if the same standard that was there last night was kept up, the ideas and zones that were already marked were actually continued to be enforced, then people would start coming around to the idea that, "This is how it is."

    No, I have no idea where I was going with this, just a bunch of random thoughts being thrown out, so a grain of salt is expected.

    However, I do think we may be able to use the audience to enforce the red distance line that we want to have them stay behind.
    This idea would require the co-operation of all performers.
    In short: Have a code word or phrase that a safety calls to the performers if the line is crossed. At which point, all performers stop performing until the person goes back to the proper side of the line.
    After this happens several times, there is a possibility that the audience will not only realize that crossing the line is a poor idea, but may actively attempt to prevent others from doing it so the show does not get stopped.
    • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

      Mon, March 31, 2008 - 9:20 PM
      Thank you all so much for your efforts! The 3/30/08 jam was much more organized and safe!

      Some comments as a photographer:

      I love the chalk designs on the concrete! So much more interesting than bare concrete. I need to try to work that into the photos more.

      I think that the current setup means no more images of fire artists at the jam with the city lights in the background. If it has to be this way for safety, then so be it. I needed a change of perspective anyway. However, that view across to the city is probably the most favorable. If you could keep it safe and allow the red tape to be an arc of 270 degrees, then there could be some shots from the east side of the performance area out to the city lights in the west.

      I realize the lines of sight are probably not a priority at this point.

      Thanks again for everything!

      - Steve Fritz
    • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

      Mon, March 31, 2008 - 9:34 PM
      A. It would be best to have a wall for the back of the performing area so that it faced south, but that doesn't seem possible with the portapots in the center of the south side. Also better to have the ground slope away from the audience, but . . .

      Things we CAN do:

      B. Moving the stage back toward the east end is good (the cement isn't painted there, and is less slippery), and putting the fuel dump by the north-side pillars at the east end is good so long as that isn't a walk-through area. It used to be that the north-east end was, from west to east: spin off, fuel dump, and backstage. That could still work well, and except for the audience location, it seems a natural arrangement.

      C. Then, if you put an "On Deck 1 & 2" area between the spin-off and the fuel dump areas, it keeps the ready-performers from being bothered by the socializing-performers who tend to spill out into the end of Salmon St. anyway..

      D. If all of the performance-related areas are more or less contiguous, keeping those areas secure is easier.

      E. If the drummers were kept to the south-west end, they'd be less likely to walk through the performing area. They usually want front row seats, even though there's no reason they have to be that near the performers.

      F. I'll bring more red duct tape next Sunday, and more safety and area poster ideas from other tribes. Suggestions for sign changing and editing are very welcome.

      G. I have the traffic easel that was at the shed and will leave it at the shed next Sunday unless someone needs it before then.

      H. Think about the possibility of sections of drywall or some lighter equivalent being used to wall off the fuel dump. At the peak of summer we're going to have an awful lot of fuel in one place.
    • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

      Mon, March 31, 2008 - 9:59 PM
      Jodans, I think my major worry was when people walked between the fire performers and the clear line to the fuel dump. Even one person back there made it MUCH different, visually, for the person messing around with fire (and therefore has fire in the eyes). I want there to be no walking around back there, same with the fuel dump. If they ain't actively fueling, clear out for people who are.

      I agree the audience can have more room. So let's pull the fuel dump back under the pylons, and I also want to chalk about TWICE as much no-man's land, since the drummers were coming right up to the red. So more shaded area for the no-man's land, less area taken by us over all.

      I do like the west edge of the porto-potties being our first line, and then perhaps from the porto-potties EAST edge to a pylon being caution tape.

      As for cameras getting city shots, I'd rather see a camera (no tripod) in the performing area than open it up 'in general'.

      And I really love the idea of more later safety (I can stay later next week), and the safeties calling out.

      I also want to adjust how signup was done to make it clearer. Not sure how.

      ;-b
      • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

        Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:22 PM
        I'm still just not understanding why someone actively performing would want a clear line to the fuel.
        Personally when I'm lit up, the only clear line I care about is to my safety.
        Maybe it is just something I don't have the experience to understand yet, which is a real possibility.
        As far as a larger no-mans land, I think that would be great. A drummer merely crossing the red line put them right into my zone.
        I like that they have front row seats, it brings the drums closer, less interference from the non-drumming crowd as far as the sound goes.
        Yesterday was my first time burning to drummers and I must say so far it has been my favorite experience. Well, when they could keep a unified beat anyway.

        All in all the jam was a great experience, I am glad I finally came out.
        • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

          Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:31 PM
          Another small issue I have is with one of the performers style of performance.
          Please forgive any bad form this may be, I am just honestly not sure how to appropriately address this.
          I noticed one of the guys that was breathing never wiped during his breathing set.
          I understand and appreciate that it is his prerogative, but I am seriously concerned about this happening to him: www.youtube.com/watch
          I know I am probably a little obsessive about how much I wipe myself, but coming out with a face saturated in fuel is an accident waiting to happen.
          Yes, I am one of those, "I don't want to hurt your feelings or get you upset with me" kind of guys.
          So I really don't know if I should just ignore or say something, or if saying something, how to broach or word the subject.
          • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

            Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:12 AM
            I actually did talk to him about wiping his face and was pretty much shrugged off. It was his third time breathing. Maybe it would come better from someone else who is brave/stupid enough to breathe, instead of just sounding like some wussy shit from a staffer who doesn't even do hand transfers.
            • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

              Tue, April 1, 2008 - 2:39 PM
              I guess I'll man up a bit and suggest it to him next time I see it happen.
              It isn't much of a concern at the moment since the flame isn't getting close to his mouth yet.
              But once he figures out how to sustain, it's going to start blowing back.
              I don't know about anyone else, but when I was first getting sustained flames, I got kissed repeatedly by the fire.
              When learning turns, I got kissed on the cheek, still do once in a while.
              I just hope for his sake, and the reputation of breathers, that he can be talking into wiping at least every few breaths.
              Good to know the subject has already been brought up with him though, will make it a little easier for me.
              Kudos on being straight up about it.
              • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

                Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:44 PM
                SLOPPY BLOWERS: If nothing else (or worse), the rash will get him to wipe.

                Still, an element of some newbie's performance is showing how much you can disregard your own safety, or how much you hate to say "Oh gosh! I had no idea I was being that stupid."


                SIGHT LINES: To establish clear lanes & lines of sight between spotters and performers, perhaps some ground-signs might help:

                SPOTTER LANE

                and

                BURNER LANE
                (on deck and exit only).

                A sign at every access and exit point to that lane, or maybe just every five feet along the lane.

                (I know the feeling here. Some activities make you grow eyes in the back of your head, and if you're good at it you get very nervous when anything blocks your view of the action, especially behind you.)


                PAINT: Alan suggested that once we get the chalk & tape lines to where we and the burners are happy, we can paint them in, in the same colors as the tape they replace, and with some grit in the paint so it isn't slippery.

                Does anyone have access to a large-format stencil cutter or a big jigsaw?
        • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

          Tue, April 1, 2008 - 2:05 AM
          Not to the fuel, per se, as much as from where they are to 'away', back, etc. And mostly that's not even for the active performer as much as for fire safety, as a troupe, to be able to monitor all areas from where they were. Every time I couldn't have a direct line of site to the fuel dumps, that person was cut off, etc.

          Unless we want to have two huge groups of fire safety people, i would much prefer to see an open channel down and back - said channel can be more limited now that we see what we need. I'd like to know there is open access into the performance area from the fuel area, and open access back to the east side, WITHOUT ANY RANDOMS standing around who are talking about other things, backing into hot (but not on fire) fire toys, or doing all the off-topic things that makes them a hazard.
          • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

            Tue, April 1, 2008 - 3:49 AM
            Ahhh ok that makes much more sense and is perfectly agreeable.
            Thanks for the patience to explain that one out for me.
            Personally in addition to that, I was kinda tripping out on the bags/gear whenever someone that didn't appear to be a performer went back there.
  • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

    Wed, April 2, 2008 - 12:57 PM
    I think a lot has been brought up in this thread... and will be addressed in the next set up.
    what hasn't yet been confirmed is if we have more cones? or anything else as a visual barrier without roping anything off?
    signs the same? how about something different for 'performer' line-up... what about chalk on one of the columns instead of the ground?
    I think that with this being the 1st Sunday... and the weather getting better... that we should expect more people than last weekend. I know I'll be staying later this time... and bringing more layers!
    • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

      Wed, April 2, 2008 - 2:20 PM
      Yes... I was hoping to touch base with a few people at bbq night, however they probably went up to Sewallcrest Park...


      How about this configuration:

      East - caution tape from across the east side, more or less
      1st pillar - Performer signup
      NOT TOO TUCKED AWAY - fuel dump - I want it open and visible and easy to navigate
      2nd pillar - spin out area
      3rd pillar - on deck
      4th pillar - beginning of fire safety line

      On the south side, the fire safety line goes all the way around, through the painted area this time, and over to the Port-O-Potties. Heavy caution tape/no passage from the last fire safety spot (where the fire extinguisher was) over to the porto-potties.

      On the east side of the PoPs, the caution tape goes sort of like it did last week.

      Needs:
      Caution Tape
      More Orange Cones

      New signs:
      PUBLIC FUEL DUMP
      PRIVATE FUEL (separate signs)
      SIGNUP
      WHO'S YER SPOTTER? (to go next to signups)
      PLEASE WALK AROUND (many of these, with arrows pointing to the right)


      and yes, let's have some easy signal for pausing performers when randoms walk into the no-man's land

      No-Man's-Land to be wider, while overall taking up less space.
  • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

    Wed, April 2, 2008 - 11:24 PM
    I too agree there should be more cones. I'll see if I can pick some up for this Sunday.

    Fire safety should be moved north near fence/behind column especially if the homeless are not settling in for the night.
    Perhaps the police's early arrival stopped them from camping out for the night.

    If there were more performers, most likely they might have been standing in the large spin area waiting and visiting. I'm curious to know if the waiting list worked or was even necessary.

    While standing with Alan by the fuel, I attempted to stop two people who walked under the tape from the far east side. One was a homeless man who said nothing but just eyed me as if I thought him stupid and kept walking through until he exited the area by the portos.

    It was great to see your tremendous efforts and I'm glad that many of the performers were receptive.
    • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

      Thu, April 3, 2008 - 12:34 AM
      I'll bring signs as suggested. Also red duct tape. I have a roll of non-stick caution tape somewhere, also several strings of triangular flags, like in a car sales lot.

      THOUGHT: Large, empty, unused areas that are taped/roped off WILL be used by pedestrians because there's no obvious reason not to walk there.

      For a general warning when someone's crossed the line, how about "Blind Man Walking!"

      • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

        Thu, April 3, 2008 - 12:31 PM
        WHISTLES!!!WHISTLES!!!WHISTLES!!!

        The people who ignore the safety lines are going to continue doing what they do, even if there was a ten foot fence and a moat full of crocodiles. None of the wonderful people involved in the safety group seems the least bit confrontational, and I'm just this side of Gandhi when it comes to getting in someone's face...ESPECIALLY when that face is fueled by alcohol, drugs, Republicans, etc.

        My suggestion is to bring whistles to alert the performers and other safety peeps when someone is doing something like entering the performance area. This would be heard over the drumming and would give the performer(s) at least a head's up. In addition, whistles could be jarring enough to make the drummers stop and notice the moron. Most morons have at least a tiny bit of shame, and maybe the very-loud calling out could be enough to make idiots stay clear (until the drugs kick in again).

        In addition to whistles, I'm bringing four new cones and a 1000' roll of CAUTION tape that I picked up at Home Depot.

        Let's have a great jam...
        • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

          Thu, April 3, 2008 - 6:14 PM
          Well then, I WON'T bring caution tape. But I'm still good for signs and red duct tape. Oh, and C7s.

          Whistles? I dunno. Unless all the whistles sound the same, each time, each Sunday . . . There's no inherent meaning in a whistle. Perhaps it's a samba parade. Perhaps it's a rape in progress. Perhaps it's a British Bobby slightly off his home turf. Perhaps it's an air-raid warning. Perhaps its a lost hiker. You'd have to follow it up with "Get the fnuk out of the Burn Zone," or people would ignore it as just another part of the fun. And if the explanation isn't immediately apposite or useful, what's the point of the whistle?

          But when someone yells "Blind man walking!" everyone looks around for the 'blind man', and people ask what it means, and it becomes obvious that some blind fool has walked into the danger zone and the entertainment has stopped, and the walker gets the idea and sees what he's done and grins and gets out the zone, and soon everybody knows what it means and only the truly blind and unconscious will then walk into the burn area.

          Of course this depends on having crystal clear NO-GO zones and the experience of seeing the burners call somebody else a "Blind Man," and so on. If it turns into a chant, the drummers will follow the rhythm.


          [[ - This is an ADA approved metaphorical use of a term referring to a member of the visually handicapped community and in no way should be taken as a derogation or denigration of their person or status - ]]
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

          Sat, April 5, 2008 - 9:59 AM
          Sorry I missed the last Jam, I SHOULD be there the 6th (busy life). Lots of ideas here and sounds good, but attempting too much control will inevitably burn people out, meaning more safety than necessary in the beginning and none later on (this is what all ready happened and why we are where we are now). I've seen it before in many ventures, trust me. Start slowly and work into what you're looking for. It will be easier for the audience to adapt and you (and I) will have a lot more fun. PLEASE GOD NO WHISTLES! They make my skin crawl. We're not coaches, we're avoiding flaming corpses. I do intend, however, to enjoy myself when I go. At all cost (except flaming corpses).
  • Re: March 30th debrief - April 6th next!

    Fri, April 4, 2008 - 8:14 AM
    We are meeting at the Watershed before heading down again, right? I'll be bringing coffee at 5:30/5:45, so you can bring your thermos or cup! and we can head down to the bridge together. I know this is a little bit earlier than we talked about last week, but since we are changing the set up/lay out we should plan on meeting the same time we did last Sunday. If anyone needs a ride this would be a good time/place to grab one.

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