We had a pretty good run of activity here a bit ago when some people asked for advice, so let's see if we can keep it going. I'll open up by confessing to my current bugaboo...focusing during performance. As I move to using ambient light more, I can't use my AF as much because the light is so dim there isn't enough contrast for the AF to work. However, I can't tell from looking through the eyepiece if I have the subject in focus when I'm trying to do it manually. With the aperture wide open in a dark environment, I have such a narrow depth of field that being just a hair off can put the whole subject out of focus. This is particularly noticeable when your subjects are moving dancers.
So what's the rest of the gang out there usually do? Do you continue to struggle with AF in low light? Do you have some secret for identifying when you are in focus manually that you're willing to share? Do you just surrender and use flash? I've contemplated rigging up some sort of blinder to cover my flash, so I can use the infrared AF assist without the flash actually being visible. That's about the only trick I can come up with on my own, and I don't know how well it would work.
So what's the rest of the gang out there usually do? Do you continue to struggle with AF in low light? Do you have some secret for identifying when you are in focus manually that you're willing to share? Do you just surrender and use flash? I've contemplated rigging up some sort of blinder to cover my flash, so I can use the infrared AF assist without the flash actually being visible. That's about the only trick I can come up with on my own, and I don't know how well it would work.
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Re: So how do you focus?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:44 PMFirst off, flash is the devil's tool and therefore not an option. With the rare exception of artsy-fartsy uses (such as the kinda gimmicky example at tribes.tribe.net/performan...3f50bc1407 ), flash destroys the ambience of a performance, both in the pictures and at the show itself. To me, the craft of shooting a show is capturing the best of the audience's actual experience and unless they're shooting gigawatts of light out of their eyes, flash is verbotten.
As for manual focus, I say if you can do it... do it! I could barely manual with any reliability using the little split-screen pentaprism in my old film body. Without that, I'd have no hope of a remotely sharp shot using todays digital bodies. IMHO, auto-focus is the only viable option (your mileage may vary).
Lord knows I've missed the focus on my fair share of shots (cue gratuitious use of Unsharp filter) but I think it starts with a fast lens that allows the maximum light into the thingymajigger that controls the autofocus. Slow lens (let's say anything above 2.8) are murder on focus in dark venues.
So I s'pose it comes down to technique. Some folks swear by the tracking functions of their autofocus. Never worked for me (maybe I just don't believe in the magic enough). I've tried some various approaches with mixed results. Out of the box with my first dSLR (which was my first auto-focus body), I went with the program-picks-the-focus-point tack. It works pretty good, since it seems to scout out the brightest thing with the most contrast and that's frequently what I'm shooting. It also kept my mind off the technical stuff and allowed me to concentrate on capturing the right moments. Heck, working the zoom while trying to get the "moment" confuses me. But then I got frustrated by dancers (especially of the gothy flava) that like to dangle their hands in front of their faces. In my book, eyes should be sharp, not rings on fingers. I tried spot focusing on a particular area, but that stymied the composition and elusive moment too much. These days I've been using the little pick-a-focus-point-manually joystick on the back of the camera to swap between three specific spots (which I park on the performers' face as I jigger and re-jigger the composition based on what's happening on stage). I work the twitchy trigger finger to half-press the focus everytime the performer moves closer or further (so I do that insanely too much, as you might imagine).
There's probably smarter ways (known by smarter photographers) to do this... That's just the way I'm currently attacking the dragon. -
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Re: So how do you focus?
Fri, May 2, 2008 - 12:29 AM
Low light focus is tough .
My focus assist generally isn't visible on the performers from the distance I'm at, but it's enough to get the AF to work.
Most cameras have a flash assist build in. The 5D doesn't, so I can use the flash for focus assist and turn the flash firing off in the camera's custom menu. There is usually a way to turn off the flash and still get the flash assist. I do that sometimes when I have a flash mounted. I use a ST-E2 on my canon. It's super pricey for just a focus assist, but since I have one I use it.
I've been very tempted to use a laser pointer - I had fantasies about mounting the laser pointer on my flash shoe to get a $5 focus assist instead of a $200, but the flash focus seems to me a "bunch of bits", ie not just circuit switch so no way to have it turn on when focusing. I still have plans to try and have a button like on the grip to turn the laser pointer on and have the pointer mounted somehow so that it's alerady aimed correctly. I tried hand holding a laser pointer in one hand and shooting with the other - better than nothing but pretty clumsy. Now a laser pointer can seem like it might be annoying but two things top keep in mind - in a dance club it's usually not noticed by anyone, and for stage performances you can get a pointer with the masks like a star or some patter which are hardly visible over 20 feet or so, but in that case the laser better be mounted in stable fashion pointing in the right direction or it won't help the focus. -
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Re: So how do you focus?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 11:16 AM
I only use one shot focus and mainly center focus. I hate the multi focus and getting surprised at what it chooses to focus on.
After reading your alls posts about the 20D, I just checked out the the Canon 5D and it has a function menu to set the "AF point selection method" to "Multi-controller direct" - the little jog button above the fly wheel. This should help out nicely in shifting the focus from center to various locations quickly and easily. Cool
The lawer ponters are probably only going to be of use for center focus. I don't think I explain the filters well. The filters which make patterns like stars, or a smiley face etc, aren't hardly visible over 20 feet but should be enough to help the AF work,. Sure they are visible in the house on a white wall but add in moving people, stage lights and a lot of darkenss and they mix in to be hardly visible. SInce they aren't very visible, it's impossible to aim the laser pointer by hand. The pointer has to be mounted and pointed in the right direction ahead of time. Of course with the default pointers with the bright little dot of light, it's easily visible but probably not what one would want during a dance show.
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Re: So how do you focus?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 12:55 PM
geez - I wish they allowed editing *after* hitting the "submit" botton :(
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Re: So how do you focus?
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:55 AMChris,
In my experience, AF actually DOES work in low-light, and it's also faster and more accurate than manual focus, when properly applied.
The thing you might want to try if you have a Canon EOS camera is selective autofocus (SA). SA is where you "tell" the camera where to "look," in order to focus. Rather than having the camera analyze the scene, to produce the focus, instead you direct the focus point. On something like a Canon EOS 5D, or the newest 1D series, you can drive this process directly using the multicontroller knob.
It becomes very natural to control the autofocus point with your thumb on the multicontroller. You just select an important area in the scene, which is indicated by a red rectangle within the viewfinder. Manually directing the camera's focus point totally prevents focus lock on the background, or on the wrong object or person. Also, it allows you rather than the camera alone to take the best compromise on the very narrow hyperfocal plane that results in wide-aperture situations. This kind of situation can be ambiguous, and you resolve the ambiguity to your liking. An example is you have a tribal dance group that is spread out over a stage, so you have to pick one dancer to focus lock on ... so you pick a dancer most forward, or most in the back, depending on what is most interesting at that moment. Taking this selection is much better than forcing the camera to examine the whole scene, and autofocus works significantly faster having a dedicated region to "look" at which you have determined is most of interest. Other kinds of compromises can emerge with careful selection. After a while, you learn how to do it quickly, and it becomes almost unconscious.
You can alternatively use the quick control dial and main dial to control SA as well.
Blessings and Less,
Michael -
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Re: So how do you focus?
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 7:47 PMThanks for the tips, guys! Being an engineer, that laser pointer idea sounds like a fun challenge. I'm glad to see that I don't have to feel like a rank amateur for still using AF...just for sometimes using flash :)
Michael, I do use SA, though I only have a 20D, consequently only have 9 focus points. I just recently started using the knob instead of the wheel (I had forgotten that's what the knob is for!) The camera just can't seem to get that one point to focus. I can hear the motor running it both directions, and it ends up stopping at infinity. Like Brad mentioned, I'm often setting the focus point, then refocusing like a madman every few seconds as the dancer moves, while waiting for her to be turned just right. I don't know how many shots I've missed because the AF won't focus. And don't even get me started on trying to get groups, since almost all the dancers I photograph these days are tribal :)
Still, it gives me hope that you guys also go AF, and still come up with such awesome pics. -
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Re: So how do you focus?
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:27 PMChris is your AF setting to One Shot,AI Focus or AI Servo? you need to try the different settings and give what Micheal suggested, a chance. -
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Re: So how do you focus?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:09 AMIt's supposed to be set at One Shot. Servo goes wonky on me even when I have good lighting. Maybe I better check to make sure it didn't get switched off once upon a time. I'll sometimes hit the wrong button in the heat of the action, after all...
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Re: So how do you focus?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 10:42 AMChris,
I loved my 20Ds, both of them, but I absolutely had to upgrade to pro bodies because of this issue, among others. It was a problem esp. for the troupe situations you mentioned, like Tribal. There are like separate whole Grand Canyon's between the focus points on that 9 point diamond. Totally feel your pain! What I learned to do with the 20D was to recompose and refocus, ... constantly. But the thumb-controller was very useful in that regard. I had a similar experience with this control as you did ... I actually thought it was a fastener for the camera for the longest time, so I never touched it, doh! Then magically, one day, I'm looking at zoomed LCD preview, and I accidentally bumped it ... whoa!
What lens are you using? The lens churning or slewing behavior militating against focus lock that you describe sounds more like insufficient light for the 20D AF system to work ... a very fast lens is your best help here. Are you using something like (quoting Brad) the "Nifty Fifty?" Either the 50mm f/1.8, or the 50mm f/1.4? The fastest possible lens (when used at wide aperture) provides more light to the AF system.
Another possible issue I can foresee that you might be dealing with for Tribal is costumes which generally have dark color. If you have Tribal girls dancing on a black background stage, with poor stage lighting, you are facing the lighting-problem I call black-on-black-on-black ... and some of them may have dark hair or hair falls .... ouch, it's just really, really hard to deal with that kind of extreme low-contrast situation. With a sufficiency of stage light, it works somewhat better, and several of us have worked with promoters to help them grok this issue ... but that's another thread.
Blessings and Light,
M -
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Re: So how do you focus?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:13 PMSounds like you really do know the pain, Michael ;) I generally use the 50 / 1.8, as I have a very small area that I've been working in lately. My 85 / 1.8 seems to be a little better, but I can't get far enough back to get more than a few nose hairs at the small places I'm at. When I can afford more gear, I plan to find a fast wide-angle.
Ultimately, the main problem is probably close to the black-on-black-on-black that you mention last. Houston does not have any large, staged bellydance productions. All the tribal performances are either one-offs at special events that have little to do with BD, or else are the weekly haflas held in the tiny upstairs venue of a local art bar. The lighting in that venue consists of about 10 separate 10-watt bulbs (about the size of tea lights) strung over a cleared section of floor that is at most 20' x 20'. We won't even mention the gawd-awful yellow paint that makes everything look yellow even when I have the white balance set for tungsten bulbs.
I did another shoot there last night, and found myself waiting for the dancers to move to the back of the "stage" where there was a little more light. I haven't gotten around to downloading the pics yet to see how they turned out. But that which does not kill our love of photography just makes it stronger, no? -
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Re: So how do you focus?
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 5:13 PMChris,
Oh! I can help you with the "Yellow Light of Jaundice" problem, esp. with a 20D!
Use the White Balance Shift option, where you can shift the color AWAY from certain colors, for whatever K value you have programmed into the camera (say K=2800 or K=3200). This can obtain significantly better color balance. I'm actually glad my 1D Mark III has K=2500 as an option for these low-light clubs you describe, and I'm hoping they'll eventually bring one with K=1800, some day.
Here's an example (and one of my favorites from that night) of JPEGs that corrected for this:
mvgals.net/gallery/gina...1142007/a54_1
And more in that gallery:
mvgals.net/gallery/gina...xter_01142007
For this Ansuya show in San Francisco, EVERYTHING on stage was absolutely coated in yellow light! With color shift, despite some residual yellowishness on our lovely star, things are now distinct, instead of being all-yellow as the eye saw it. Ansuya told me later that she expected the photos would be crap because of the lighting, but was quite surprised at how well they turned out. OMG, the White Balance Shift option dealt with this problem!
One can certainly deal with this by using camera raw, but this creates a bottle-neck in post-production, esp. for a large belly dance show. In addition, some stage lighting inherently does not have white balance at all: a stage lighted brightly in both blue and yellow is an example, there's no "there" there. So, in this instance, it's more effective to intentionally CHOOSE where you want the color tonality to go, and the White Balance shift feature (which uses the multi-controller to push color in two-different axes from default center) is a god-send.
Yes, that which does not kill our photography DOES make it stronger!
Wish you well.
Blessings and Light,
M
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Re: So how do you focus?
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 5:29 PMYikes, I remembered one one other trick for low-light/bad-color. Your 20D camera (and others in the Canon EOS DSLR system) can render JPEGs in monochrome directly in-camera. This is very useful for eliminating chrominance information that ultimately cannot work in a color photo, due to light-levels and/or color clashes between skin/stage, hair/stage, lights/skin, lights/costume, stage/costume, etc. A wicked little trick to overlay on top of this is to use the built-in digital color filter option to emphasize skin tones, costumes, which-ever color needs to be brought out more ... just like you would do if shooting black-and-white film. The nice thing is, for the DSLR system, there is zero optical loss, e.g. no filter-factor, unlike for a film camera.
So, this trick works by eliminating "bad" raw data, in-camera, starting directly with the CMOS data which comes from the Bayer pattern mosaic. This is unlike camera raw! When you read camera raw into (say) ACR, that program does the de-mosaicing for you. You cannot take out something in this non-linear mixing of three sets of tri-stimulus gray values, R, G, and B. But working with the data BEFORE this happens, the camera actually can. Unlike camera raw, for JPEGs rendered in monochrome with these tricks, you can actually cause chrominance data harmful to your (ultimately monochrome) shot to be eliminated/reduced BEFORE the demosaicing algorithm runs to produce your JPEG photo. A classic example with my 20D was eliminating green while doing astrophotography in monochrome, because in the Bayer pattern sensor, there are many more green photo sites, and these tended to be noisier. Taking out green made much cleaner astrophotos as JPEGs, by removing a "noisy channel" from the signal processing. This same technique (via colors appropriate to the situation at hand) can be used for low-light belly dance clubs and for truly terrible lighting/color combinations ...
Blessings and Light,
M
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Re: So how do you focus?
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 10:44 AMsorry, that's supposed to be "Blessings and Light," in my sign-off there, meant no ill will, that's a stupid typo, argh...
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