Obviously, we all want to be prolific with our genius, but pragmatically we all decide whether to focus our limited energy on quantity or quality. So the question is: Is it better to err on the side of completely documenting the performance and delivering more choices; or should we edit mercilessly and strive for that single image that summarizes the entire performance? Sure, most shotters end up producing something in the middle, but which direction do you strive for?
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 9:13 PMI used to try and please all the dancers by posting shots of everyone. Now I'm trying more to take care of the artist in myself and posting more of my best and striving more for my finest. Would a fine artist give you a bad painting? Most dancers are not interested in buying the photography we do of them anyway. We might as well photograph for our own taste and standard. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 9:22 PMI've posted an image of the quality I'm working to achieve in the photos for this tribe.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 9:50 PMI've only recently started getting serious about looking at these questions in my photography, mainly because I've spent the last several years learning the art it by trial and error. Now that I'm getting to where I know what I want as I take the shot, I find that I'm definitely trending towards minimizing the shots I publicize. I personally will quickly lose interest wading through 300 pictures from a 1 hour show that someone put online regardless of basics like focus or composition. I generally filter a 1 hour show down to 30 or so that I might do a little cropping of, but which don't need anything else.
Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to post individual pictures on Tribe, so end up just posting links in the relevant tribes whenever a gallery is complete. Consequently, I don't actually have any posted here :) -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 8:03 AMI'm shooting less. Trying to spend more time focusing, studying, framing, and understanding what story there is to be told in any given performance.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 8:43 AM"I personally will quickly lose interest wading through 300 pictures from a 1 hour show that someone put online regardless of basics like focus or composition."
Absolutely! I attend a lot of anime and gaming conventions and wading through the pictures people post afterwards is often an exercise in frustration and pain.
At the moment, I try to get at least one shot of each performance, but if the pic isn't up to my quality standards, it doesn't get posted. Quality is definitely more important. How else can we build our reputations and get people to buy shoots from us? ^_^ And, yes, we are artists and should strive for quality in our work -- hand-crafted over cheap mass-production.
I do make a slight exception if a dancer or troupe asks me before hand if I can get a shot of a certain pose or moment in their dance piece. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 8:47 AMOh, and I'd like to add that from my experience, people are happier if you whittle out all the mediocre shots. Show them 5 amazing shots from a shoot and they are ecstatic, show them those same five shots mixed in with 50 mediocre shots and they aren't quite as happy with you.
People also seem to have trouble lots of the time if you give them too many choices with photos. They can't tell if they like pic "A" with head angled slightly to the left or pic "B" with head angled slightly to the right better. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 1:32 PMI agree totally! I get a lot more interest from the dancers when I post only the stuff I'm proud of, but a "data dump" doesn't get much response. It took a few years for me to realize the reason I wasn't happy with my work was that it was too much like vacation snapshots. Performances are all about motion, sound, etc to convey emotion. I don't think you can really document that just by taking stills. You have to convey the emotion by finding little frozen bits of the performance, and use light and composition and depth of field (i.e. our art) to redraw the emotion in a new media.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 3:55 PM
totally - seems every one agrees - post quality over quanity. Filtering the results is doing everyone a favor.
The question that has been on my mind is shooting - quality over quanity? Last summer I probably shot 20,000 photos thinking if I get a lot of great shots shooting a 100 shots then I'll get even more shooting 1000. Didn't work out that way. Not sure why. I thought, I'd hate to miss any good shots so I'm just going to shoot like crazy. I actually think the results were worse. I'm getting to the point where I think it's better to miss some great shots and concentrate on making the good shots really good. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 5:14 PMdefinitely, the more I shoot, the higher the ratio of out-takes.
I was at a costume party last weekend for less than 2 hours, shot 52 pictures, liked at least 40 of them. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 8:25 AMI think this effect is because when we take less shots, we really think about each shot but if we're just clicking away, we subconsciously (or consciously) hope quantity will take care of everything for us and don't really work on composition and lighting and such. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 6:29 PMI think this partially depends upon the situation. The professional photographers I work with from other genres take OMG TONS of shots. Even before digital they did this. Digital makes it limitless. I'm talking fashion and personality photography, but many successful ones frame up a shot, and then take TONS of shots. The expression might be slightly different, the angle might be a fraction of an inch different, but it still might be better.
In some ways this is very different from shooting dance. We don't stay still too much. Sorry 'bout that. ;)
I think if you are out there shooting for your own interest, by all means, take your time, set up each shot slowly and then edit to the few you feel best about.
If you are in a "for hire" situation, then I suggest providing all the shots- if not for "public consumption" then at least to the person who paid you money. In those situations the subject might have something in particular they are looking for, maybe a portion of a picture they can use. In a for hire scenario it's not the photographer's job to censor. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 6:45 PMA good point Samira, it's why I cull crowd shots very carefully.
But at some point, when I'm pushing the button to fast, I notice battery heat/weakness resulting in shutter lag. Am I just carrying less power than everyone else, or what? -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 7:51 PMI know mine has a limit on how many I can take in a specific period before it needs to take a brief pause. It was in my manual, but I don't feel like digging it out to look up the specifics at the moment. :) Something like 10 shots in a certain amount of seconds and then it does something internally before I can take more.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 11:50 AM"If you are in a "for hire" situation, then I suggest providing all the shots- if not for "public consumption" then at least to the person who paid you money. In those situations the subject might have something in particular they are looking for, maybe a portion of a picture they can use. In a for hire scenario it's not the photographer's job to censor."
I should specify the type of situation I weed out a lot of photos. When I am shooting at an event such as a hafla or performance and a dancer has not specifically hired me to photograph them (but the event has asked me to be there) and I'm posting pics to a website where dancers can choose to buy photos of themselves or not, then I do a lot of weeding. I only want to put the best stuff up there because I don't want to have too much for everyone to wade through to get to their own pics and it also serves as advertising for me, so hopefully, some of them will hire me for photo shoots or events.
When it is a photo shoot someone has hired me for, I do less weeding but I still do some. I do keep in mind that they want options to choose from and could be looking for specific things but if a picture makes them look particularly unattractive or is fundamentally flawed in some way (such as too blurry), I delete it. This could be a holdover from my wedding photography days when the photographer I worked for said, "If the bride looks bad in any pic, delete it. It doesn't matter if everyone else looks fabulous. It's all about the bride." ^_^ My comment in an earlier post about "give them 5 great photos instead of 5 great within 50 mediocre" doesn't apply to hour photo shoots, I do give them a lot more than 5 photos to choose from. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 11:58 AMFor a couple of my clients and collaborators, when I give them a disc, it will contain a separate folder labeled 'outtakes' in case they are looking for faces, evidence in the background ;-), etc. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 12:25 PMJennifer- that is exactly how it's done in my experience as well. I felt the need to say something though because of a recent unfortunate experience that left some dancers unhappy. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:02 PMSorry to hear you had an unfortunate experience. <_> Thanks for the commenting. ^^ I am still pretty new at this so advice is appreciated. I've only done two events and around 10 individual person photo shoots on my own so far -- before, I was an assistant to a wedding photographer.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 12:54 PMI've been so sorely tempted to add little caption bubbles on some photos I've taken. ^_^
The "Outtakes" folder is a good idea. I'll have to keep that in mind for certain circumstances. ^^ -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:03 PMI once took several photos of a dance performance, culled the set for the head teacher. Months later, she called asking for specific shots of 3 girls together. I had culled them, not burned on her disc, but backed up. She ended up using one, albeit PS's a bit, for flyer art.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 2:40 PMSamira sez: "In a for hire scenario it's not the photographer's job to censor."
That may or not be true contractually, depending on any prior agreement between the client and the photographer. But I like to think that a good photographer brings a level of objective discernment to the decision process. Just as a talented artist may understand a slew of subliminal design devices that the layperson may be totally unawares of (yet nonetheless dramatically impact the effectiveness of the work), a qualified photographer can look beyond self-conscious quirks of taste that the subject may have (so many subjects bring unrelated personal luggage into the edit process) and guide towards the best product. Providing the option of "outtakes" opens up the very real possibility of less-than-quality work being used. Granted, not all shutter pushers are up to the task of picture editing (as evidenced by the sloppy galleries so many photogs opt to share with the world) but hopefully that's the exception and not the rule.
Perhaps an apt comparison might be the idea: "In a for hire scenario it's not the dancer's job to censor." I doubt many performer's would allow the client to make their creative choices. While they may hire a performer for a certain style of dance, would a professional dancer allow the client to go in and change chunks of the choreography? Instead, I imagine, most good dancers would politely suggest that the client liked their work enough to hire the dancer; now respect the dancer's choices. -
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:27 PMOh, here ya go bein' all logical again.
I understand and see your point, but feel that it can be taken too far and it's the too far that I'm addressing.
From a dance perspective:
Dancer: A show of 20-25 minutes is $250.
Client asks: How much for an hour?
Dancer replies: We keep it in the 20-25 minute range because that is usually what parties like yours are happiest with. Besides- dancing is hard work and it's difficult to maintain the glamorous image while working that hard for an hour
That's a reasonable recommendation to get a full content show with nice variety
OR
Dancer: A show of 20-25 minutes is $250.
Client asks: How much for an hour?
-She could get to said venue and decide to only show her best and feel she's strongest at floowork and taqsim, so in reality
Even though the client is expecting 20-25 minutes for $250, deliver "only her strongest" 7 minutes.
I think that is a different scenario than what you are talking about though.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:40 PMFigured out how to word it better:
I think there is a balance between the "artiste" and the client- professional relationship and it's on a delicate scale that can be set off balance easily.
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Re: Quantity or Quality
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:01 PMI think a mark of a good photographer is a smaller number of better photos. Conversely, the mark of a beginner is a memory stick dump. Most have short attention spans anyway and the good shots get lost among the bogus ones.
Deciding how exactly to pare them down depends on the situation. For example, on our personal websites or portfolios, we'll only want to use the very best. But for a paying client, including a folder of 'B' shots gives them choices. I've had a relative few situations where they really liked some shots I thought were not up to par.
On that note, I often explain that when it comes to camera work of any kind, video or still, you're often lucky to get a 4:1 ratio. Some don't understand this and are under the impression you're firing blindly and just get lucky a few times. I sometimes reference a documentary about the making of 'Friends', where they routinely shoot over 100 hours of film (not video) to yield one 22 minute production. Or show them a book of Ansel Adams 'other works', with many blurry and wrongly exposed shots.
I also think it's pretty cool how we're all sharing our M.O. here. :)