well, i sure damn know who rudolph the red nosed steinhole is.

It often seems that people don't care about what is happening around them. At least until life knocks them on their butts. Years ago when I read Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" I was amazed and saddened by a society self destructing. A while back I ran into another quote that brought it more into focus today:

"...nuclear warfare is not necessary to cause a breakdown of our
society. You take a large city like Los Angeles, New York,
Chicago--their water supply comes from hundreds of miles away and any
interruption of that, or food, or power for any period of time you're
going to have riots in the streets. Our society is so fragile, so
dependent on the interworking of things to provide us with goods and
services, that you don't need nuclear warfare to fragment us anymore
than the Romans needed it to cause their eventual downfall."

- Gene Roddenberry

The amazing thing was that even as Rome crumbled around their ears, Romans were still clamoring for their 'entitlements'. At the height of Rome's power there were around 5000 centurions in the Roman military. When the end came there were around 500. At a time when the majority of the populous was illiterate, centurions were required to be able to read and write, use all infantry weapons, and train other soldiers from scratch. It turns out Roman population wasn't the issue (in fact citizenship requirements were loosened up during the later republic and during the emperial centuries leading to the expansion of the franchise), but the people themselves changed to where they could not find enough Romans with the commitment to be willing to make the sacrifices needed to become centurions. Most Romans gave up freedoms for perceived security and ended up losing both freedom and security.

And yes, I see paralelles today in such silly ideas as price controls and other things (which I read about recently in DeLorenzo's book, "Four Thousand Years of Price Controls"). Ag policies under the Roman Emporer Diocletian bear a remarkable resemblence to many things being floated today. Result was driving small farmers out of business, and even in many cases into 'barbarian' lands. A review of DiLorenzo's book can be found here:

www.mises.org/story/1962

To put things in perspective though is a Bill Molison interview years ago vailable on the Seeds of Change website. Mollison is just one man, but think of everyone he has trained. And all the people they are training. It is kind of like science, it matters not what a consensus says is true if a single man does an experiment that proves the consensus wrong. A single ugly little lab result has been the ruin of many a beautiful theory or hypothesis. Mollison's interview can be read here:

www.seedsofchange.com/cutting...iew.aspx

At some time in the future, a ' food bubble' will burst. All we can do is work to either avert food production and supply problems, or reduce their impacts if failure in distribution occurs. Things aren't totally hopeless, but like the Roman centurions of old, dedication and commitment are required. Yes we do need to be concerned and know where to put our efforts, but we should also be optimistic as well. Don't wait for someone to save you, do it yourself one day at a time. Keep faith and perspective where they belong. As the former Secretary of Agriculture during the Eisenhower administration once said:

"There is more salvation and security in wheat than in all the political schemes of the world."

- Ezra Taft Benson

I read your topic header and thought..."Well, of COURSE I'm not giving away my shit. I'm composting it, thank you very much. Useful stuff."

Then I read your post.
I stopped trying to get other people to do as I wanted, a looong time ago.
Now I do as *I* want and let other people follow when they get interested.
And some will eventually get interested.

Hang tight and compost that shit.

After spending a few months meeting weekly with the local Gardening and Food Sustainability Group, I am definitely not nearly as frustrated with the hopelessness you express in your post, Benjamin. There are lots of warriors out there but this revolution will take time to root like any act of gardening.

Keep the faith compadre!

This post is to those that answered Benjamin. Everyone of you were really great! Lots of very positive comments; not on what he was down about but as a support to lift him up and give him strength to go on. Thanks for being there for ME! I hope Benjamin does as you suggest and picks up and keep on slugging. Fighting a war of ANY kind is never easy.

MP & BB
John
))0((

why are you so frustrated? are you angry because people do not share your beliefs? in order to cause change and realization in the hearts of one's neighbors, it takes a change within the self to be an example of practical living.

p.s. the human beings around you are no more dispicable than you and me

Thanks Benjamin for your compost-able topic and it's always good to vent and flush out the sludge, especially, it seems, with this happenin' tribe.

I'm telling myself that the city is just a different guild, growing what it grows, and producing a lot of things that need to be composted. We travel a lot for work and have been inspired to see how much 'is' actually changing in Texas and New Mexico in the area of sustainable culture. Most of the changes that we saw were from "outsiders" (locals who didn't used to fit in and transplants from other states) planting new seeds of change in areas that were becoming ripe for it.

Slowly it changes cycle by cycle by cycle. If it happened overnight it wouldn't be a movement it would be a trauma that most couldn't process or retain.

Hey Benjamin,

Four weeks is an awfully short period of time, especially considering that permaculture principles utilize timeframes based on generations instead of days. Don't get frustrated, get patient.

I assume that you selected NYC to practice permaculture in for one reason or another. Perhaps now is the time to reflect, to remember why, and to move forward in one direction or another? In your reflections it may also help to ask why people should care.

Have you tried connecting with other permacultists in the big city? You don't have to do it all by yourself. For example I suggest contacting this guy: www.homebiome.com/ When I knew him he was living off-grid in the rural hills of WV, turns out now he's based in Brooklyn. Just goes to show that getting away from folks that don't care isn't always the best option for spreading the gospel of the permacult.

I dont remember if someone recently invited me to this tribe or if I saw it on someone elses tribes list and it looked interesting so I joined. I joined to learn more. But whether it's this subject or any other subject, it's easy to think that people do or do not give a fuck. People dont give a fuck. People do give a fuck. And if you give a fuck then like minds will find each other and give a fuck together.

I'm sorry. "Nobody gives a sh*t!" was the post. Word supplementation aside. Your thread post has obviously garnered some response. I dont really know enough about the subject to add anything too extensive. But that doesnt mean I dont give a shit. And maybe there are other people on here that feel the same way. Just here to learn new things and be a part of something cool. I hope people keep in mind that lack of or limited participation in the ongoing dialogue doesnt necessarily equate not giving a shit. I like to think that most people on this tribe are on it specifically because they do give a shit. It's probably a small minority that are just on here because they think it makes them cool. : )

Her's the link to Northeastern Permaculture Network...they do a ton of stuff in the New York area, just depends on what you want to get into. i belong to this group in my state and we are a busy bunch of folks.

northeasternpermaculture.wikispaces.com/

Also links to other NewYork PermaCulture organizations etc...enjoy!

greenbrooklyn.com/urban-per...008/02/08/

www.hancockpermaculture.org/

wildgreenyonder.wordpress.com/200...ood/

www.opencenter.org/

www.moregardens.org/node/159

Benji,
Get over it , and on with your life. Of course nobody gives a shit, that's how we all got in this mess. but you, or I aren't responsible for " them" .
Odd that this guy hasn't re posted after all of this .

ITHACA NY gives a shit.

Thank you so much for all this great support!

I'm back in New York and really giving it more, but this time, with really giving a sh*t! I moved to Brooklyn and , well, it's tough but, I am managing to get some really interesting projects off the ground. Relationships are hard going in this town, but, i found that if i stick around, folks get friendlier. I'm writing grants that fuel themselves and can support projects. Support is hard to find. I mean, i get a lot of smiles (which is great), but if all of those people who said their going to be at my Seed Saving Initiative this Wed, and actually show up...I will do a little dance...and I will call it "The, I was wrong ...and I can feel alright" dance. I might just do another one, if folks get up an dance with me.

OK. If anyone is in New York, Brooklyn, Flatbush, On Courtelyou Rd, Off Marbourgh and would like to show up for some seed saving. Come on By! Please! Get involved and lets do it! No more talking about what we are "gonna" do. We can work out all of the kinks along the way. Besides, this is for the children!

Thanks!

“Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” -Margaret Mead
Don't give up. If you burn hot enough, long enough, others will be attracted to the light- just don't burn out on the way. Good luck. My well-wishing goes with you, and I continue to do what I can, every day, with few fireworks and much slow burn.