Worker controlled company to produce fuel

topic posted Sat, September 22, 2007 - 3:10 AM by  Tony
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I'm creating a worker controlled company along with some other people, and thinking that one area I'd like us to go into algae farming. Algae farming can produce massive amounts of fuel, 500 times more fuel than soybeans, and it has zero impact on the land other than the buildings. Produce as much from a garage area, than a football field worth of soybeans. It is a very new field, which will require research.

Would anyone here be interested in helping us start such a company? Also, would anyone be interested in helping with funds, and what would we need to do to attract your funding or land for this use?

Tony
posted by:
Tony
Ukraine
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  • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

    Sun, October 7, 2007 - 9:52 AM
    Your goal of creating a worker controlled or owned company is admirable. But choosing an activity that requires a large investment in research before success can be reached multiplies the number of barriers in your way. Research funds are notoriously hard to raise. Perhaps your companies' first project should be a conventional activity with well defined risks and costs because it would be much easier to finance. Then, with a proven track record of success, your company will have better access to both financing and more profitable activities.

    Remember that most investors don't risk their money on technology directly but in management teams that have a reasonable, detailed plan of action to conquer all of the business and technical risks and thus assure a profitable outcome. Investors are not usually gamblers.
  • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

    Sun, October 7, 2007 - 8:37 PM
    The other way to start is to start small, hobby, and build up.

    Your first problemis going to be getting the algae, then successfully keeping it alive long term and then reproducing.

    Then if you can produce enough fuel to run your own vehicle, it would sound far more attractive to an investor.

    The problem with worker co-operatives is that everyone needs to have the same drive.
    • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

      Tue, October 9, 2007 - 12:24 AM
      Actually, the worker controlled company I'm starting, is already in 4 countries. It may be a little early for us to work with algae, but... I'm thinking since our strategy is to funnel money into poor developing countries, creating communities there where we can get land and people very cheap, that algae might be highly useful for us.

      There's a project called Desipower project, in India, where they create a power plant using a methane generator and a diesel generator, and create electricity to power a small community. Algae can create not only energy, but also food. We could use the algae to feed fish, and we could sell fish to produce income.

      For our company, we don't necessarily have to produce algae at top efficiency. We can probably get away with open water ponds, which don't run so efficient, and may be labor intensive. I don't know though. I'd like us to have one or two people who know algae, to help us do the research we'll need in that area in the near future. Research has to be done before it is needed, not after the need arises.

      In my on thinking about what would be needed to grow algae efficiency, I was thinking it'd be extremely useful to have a database of all the different types of algae, with how certain things affect their growth rate. Such a database would allow algae growth in a competitive environment. Does anyone have such a database?

      Tony
      • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

        Tue, October 16, 2007 - 11:21 AM
        Hi Tony-
        I've been marginally involved in an algae-to-biodiesel project where they have been growing algae in "photobioreactors" (PBRs), in which they supply scrubbed biodiesel exhaust to the algae as a CO2 source. So they are both using the algae to sequester CO2 emissions, and as an *eventual* fuel source.

        However, there are some technical issues even before you get to the "how do you make fuel out of these buggers" stage. For example, you need to cultivate a LOT of algae to capture the CO2 emissions of even one relatively small generator. So, what do you do with those algae? Well, you can use it for food (but maybe not human food chain if the diesel exhaust ends up filling them up with PAHs and various heavy metals-- it wouldn't exactly be "organic" algae), or fertilizer, or compost, but either way you end up with a materials handling issue-- tons and tons of wet algae that you have to strain from the water and dry (and in the mean time, find somewhere to store a growing pile of dead algae).

        There are still technical issues involved with extracting oil from algae (solvent extraction? centrifuges? thermal? etc), but even then you have a pretty good mass of algae cake "byproduct" to deal with (and "waste" if you can't find a use).

        none of this is to say that it's "impossible" (since that word is really just a challenge to do something new, not a statement of fact!), but these are some technical difficulties you will be confronting, and areas in which there is currently a lot of investigation, research, interest, and change.

        So my advice, based on the limited amount that I know about this

        Think through and sketch out the whole system-- what goes into it (and where are you going to get it?) and what comes out of it (and what are you going to do with it?). As you do this, you can identify both suppliers and markets, and if there aren't any, issues that need to be dealt with to make your project feasible. Also, relevant to investors, you will be a lot more attractive to investors once you can demonstrate that you've got this all worked out than beforehand.

        Some resources that I'm aware of:
        1) there is a tribe on Tribe called the "Chlorophyll Collective" not sure how active, but these folks are trying to develop open-source methods that will allow anyone to cultivate algae for bio-fuel.
        2) there is a yahoo group called oil-from-algae that may be a resource. They have people ranging from folks who have been working on "home-brew" methods for several years to folks that are engineers or marketing directors for companies that are looking at algae to bio-fuel as either a market opportunity and/or a way to sequester CO2 from power plant emissions, etc.

        sorry for the length of this post, but hope the info helps-
        ~C
        • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

          Mon, October 22, 2007 - 3:35 AM
          That was very helpful, thank you. Don't worry about long posts. Nothing really intelligent or innovative can be said in a short post.

          Tony
          • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

            Mon, October 22, 2007 - 11:32 AM
            That was quite a short post for you to make such a sweeping statement. I think self-referential behavior is in play here.

            ;-}
            • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

              Wed, October 24, 2007 - 5:23 AM
              You say that it has "Zero Impact".
              Anytime there is any being used to produce something for human use, there is impact.
              Algae, although small is alive.
              Consider this when proceeding.
              I am not convinced that using great amounts of plants for fuels is the ultimate answer.
              I would like to see us use less fuel in general and find alternative ways to get around
              and then use less of any fuel.
              But thanks for your info about this alternative fuel source.
              It is also good to see folks exploring these avenues.
              Peace, Julie
              • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

                Wed, October 24, 2007 - 11:43 PM
                That is true, there's always problems with anything when it is over done. Our society over uses everything. I'm also working to end the over use aspect of society, which is actually what the worker controlled society is. It is a way to redesign our society, starting from a tiny seed (a small company) and growing it to engulf the entire world.

                Algae does have a huge risk to it as well, which is genetic engineering. I've talked to a genetic engineer who wanted to do something really scary with algae and I told them it sounded very scary to me, like something that could destroy the world, but he told me that billions of years of evolution have created species far more survivable than anything man can create. He thinks anything we do to genetically engineer something will reduce its survivability in the real world.

                That way of thinking, however, assumes non-existence of God. The reason, is because if God exists and as my theory says is the connection of all life on Earth, than God prevents such careless destructive bio-engineering in the natural world. Life in general is bio-engineered by God (or Gaia, which ever term you prefer) to regulate the climate on Earth, to support life. That bio-engineering is always done with the consequences in mind. We humans however, assume no bad consequences can come from it. That is dangerous.

                Algae, I believe, is a-sexual. This means that in billions of years, algae does not change very much. Because of its extremely fast growth, a bio-engineered change to algae could easily destroy the world. In a matter of months it could cover the oceans and wipe out all life in the oceans, and destroy the world. Therefore, I believe no one should ever mess with bioengineering on algae. Larger plants and animals are one thing, 'cause we can destroy all the engineered ones to stop them, if there's a serious problem, but a new strain of algae would be impossible to stop.

                Tony
  • Jim
    Jim
    offline 1

    Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

    Wed, November 7, 2007 - 9:08 AM
    Does this mean a future Nuremburg for those of us who use biofuels??

    www.guardian.co.uk/commenti...8,00.html
    • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

      Wed, November 7, 2007 - 11:25 PM
      The switch to biofuel is unavoidable. It is occurring because the price of oil is going up, and the price of oil is going up because we are running out.

      It does not have to mean starvation though. Once the oil is extracted from algae, what is left over can be used as food for animals and fish, or even for people. This is also true for many other crops. The Capitalist system is not designed to care for the people's needs though, only for producing money, so they get these places to export food and convert it in another country, thus loosing the feeding capability.

      Our worker controlled company though, will do it totally differently. We'll produce and export only the fuel, and keep the food for local use. We'll also as much as possible distribute the fuel locally, which will also give us increased profit due to reduced shipping costs.

      Food can be used like money. Feeding people can give the return of work output from those people, which benefits everyone in our company. The more we help the poor, the more we help ourselves.

      Tony
      • Re: Worker controlled company to produce fuel

        Tue, November 13, 2007 - 2:32 AM
        I agree with you completely. It doesnt have to be the way it is right now. There are better ways to make biofuels and one of the best has been completely ignored. Methanol is far better than Ethanol in quite a few ways and does not impact the food production industry at all, rather it builds and supports it.

        I have been working on a plan to put a large scale methanol operation into place in every city in american and have gotten some great praise even from members of the US congress.

        There are workable ecotechnical solutions available and coherent and well established methods and comprehensive packages that can be put in place if people would just wake up and get their priorities right.

        The sad part it is that it is also cheap, proven in all of it's component stages and systems, reliable and efficient, and thus even profitable, yet it has not been built yet.

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