death of photography debate

topic posted Wed, November 22, 2006 - 8:54 AM by  Jennifer
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do you feel/ think/ believe that digital is the DEATH of photography or the new reveloution? how do you think photogprahy will stand as an historical document? will is beocme more inporatnt for thoes who KNOW thier work has the message and store it, print it. etc. in a way that will stand the test of time?
posted by:
Jennifer
Colorado
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  • Re: death of photography debate

    Thu, November 23, 2006 - 9:54 AM
    It is not the death but the transformation of photography. I recently read an Ansel Adams biography and there were a couple of places where he expressed great interest in the possibilities of digital photography, something that he'd never really seen as it was still in the very earliest stages when he died.

    The capturing of images will be with us forever, has been with us since someone first took charcoal to a cave wall. The great images will stand the test of time. The ability to use the tools available to bring out the image is the key test.

    "oh, your pictures are so good! You must have a really good camera!"

    "hmmm, and your lasagna is really good, so you must have a really good set of pots and pans."
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    Ansel Adams is Evil

    Tue, November 28, 2006 - 8:54 PM
    Dear Jennifer,

    Funny you should ask, I recently wrote on this subject with relevance to Brandon's Ansel Adam's reference.

    Ansel Adams is Evil

    Dear Ms. McLaughlin,

    While in Looking Glass ordering 8 X 10 black and white prints from you, I was given a flyer announcing “’has digital photography killed ansel adams? The future of black & white photography’ a lecture by Andrea McLaughlin” by the clerk.

    Having been amazed by the production of your prints, I had asked another clerk at another time if a device had been devised and used by your employees whereby a printing machine incorporated the densitometer, for example, to measure all areas of the negative to create a print that not only burned the edges but evened the exposure overall?

    He said he didn’t think so just that you were good at what you do.

    Sometime ago, when I was printing a lot of images myself, I used a woman to print a couple and I was not impressed with her work.

    So, given the chemical processes, the burning and dodging, paper choices, turn-around times, third-parties’ potential loss of negatives, the fact that a densitometer-driven enlarger has not been invented, for starters, represents why digital photography hasn’t killed Ansel Adams, but it is part of an argument I would like to propose that addresses the issue you have mentioned.

    In essence, you propose that there is a future for black & white photography.

    You qualify black & white photography has having two outputs: Digital or as implied with the life and times of Ansel Adams, film-based.

    So, the debate could take the form of one about film vs. digital photography, specifically black & white, or it could just envision the future of black & white photography.

    I would like to address the issue quickly.

    Photography will always be about reality. What is outside the lens is far more important than how that reality is captured.

    The issue is composition. It is not about manipulation except in proportion to that manipulation, which is reflective of a reality that is believed to be based in reality.

    Photography, whether black & white or color, has as it’s presumptive basis the fact that employed in carrying it out was a capture of reality, light reflected off properties.

    It isn’t so much about pin-holes or Carl Zeiss lenses, but about the registration of light memorized and printed.

    Ansel Adams was an eye looking through a lens. He was a technician who exposed light to paper passing through negatives he had produced by peering through the lens of a camera and opening and closing the shutter.

    He carried the camera to a vista. He covered his head and pulled the trigger.

    As a photographer, who uses a digital camera to shoot both black and white and color, I take pride in found images. I do not manipulate the images. I do not crop them. But, I rely on the technology of the camera – Sony Mavica, Carl Zeiss-lens, 4.0 Megapixel-based, to capture what my eye sees.

    I never much cared for the problems with exposure, such as areas in the frame of a print, as with your photo on the flier, just below the hand with the watch that because it is lighter than say the people at the bottom middle or those around the left side, you get a sense that the print is weighted toward the left, as if the person on the ladder was pulling visually the image to the left. The eye is drawn to the left. In the end, my eye rests on the gentleman’s left shoe as it presses the ladder peg. (See: berkeleypubliclibrary.org/syste....pdf).

    Photography is about what the photographer sees, not about the failure of his tools or the photographer’s failure to know how his tools will fail him. There is a science of prediction, a scientific knowledge of photography that is all well and good, like, “So, what lens did you use?” “What paper?” “What Camera?” “How long did it take you to burn and dodge that image?” But none of these questions address the image.

    Ansel Adams is dead. He has been dead a long time and perhaps digital photography killed him, but of course while I still have black and white negatives and you exist, I will keep you alive unless of course you elect to kill me, “digitally”-speaking.

    It is always a question of tools when the sought outcome is the same. But when the outcome is the same, we choose the lesser of evils.

    Mario Savioni
    • Re: Ansel Adams is Evil

      Tue, November 28, 2006 - 9:08 PM
      oh my, thanks for that kick in the butt.. loved it!!!! my primary respect for AA is what his images did for environmental conservation. his images took a role deeper than the standard image, and that is what i hope my work can be. i struggle with digital, t at times, i love it and at other times i hate it.. .. i think the thing i like the least is that i KNOW film and i do not know digital as well.. and i am truly not up for starting over in my lessons.

      "Photography is about what the photographer sees, not about the failure of his tools or the photographer’s failure to know how his tools will fail him." well said. i was trying to get a point across in another tribe, and was only wanting to talk about an issue and not attack anyone, but in return i was attacked for stating i do not crop, it seemed impossible or it seemed that i was a liar, but the statement you made here is why i don't crop.

      i truly appreciate your paper. i am to lecture to a history class about photography as a historical document, and i would like to share some of your insight if you do not mind.
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        Anxiety Does Not Lie

        Wed, November 29, 2006 - 12:37 AM
        Jennifer, please share (attribute when necessary); I am flattered.

        Yes AA has done great things for the environment. He was a great photographer going deep. He reminded us that the distance between the photographer and his subject matter is the variability of: Camera, image, and film. He crafted melodic dreams in the landscape harnessed by b/w photography. Many of his images are embedded in our photographic consciousness and unconsciousness.

        I am glad to have given you words (kick in the butt) for believing in what wasn't articulating itself as feeling. I know that feeling. If only we had more than 24 hour per day and we could respond to every feeling with a practiced and trusted articulation of the self.

        Damasio says the unconscious is emotional. A person is not aware of disturbances of homeostatic balances. While all emotions lie, anxiety does not. There's a deceiving character of affects. Music clearly illustrates this. Anyway, those are some of my notes from The Parallax View by Slavoj Zizek.
  • Re: death of photography debate

    Thu, November 30, 2006 - 4:24 PM
    it will be the death of film but not image creation

    photography is but painting with a different tool that emphasis on a different image quality...

    photography could NEVER stand as a defacto rep of truth as a historical document...

    one has to realise that photography is but a SLICE of reality and SHOULD NEVER and CAN NEVER hope to represent truth and thus it can never be a historical document without supporting commentary
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      What is Art?

      Wed, December 6, 2006 - 1:30 AM
      >photography could NEVER stand as a de facto rep of truth as a historical document... <

      As a matter of fact, photographic works have stood for truth by verifying facts, standing for that quality that is near to the true value as a study of history or that having once lived or existed or taken place in the real world, as information about the past, representing of a culture that is social heritage, or tradition passed to future generations, representing a plot/story that is based on historical events or famous persons. Photography is a narrative that places characters or events in historically accurate surroundings. It displays buildings and objects belonging to a past age. There are pictures of present day events which can be expected to have historical interest in times to come and may serve as a representation of a person's thinking by means of symbolic marks; record in detail; a form of writing that provides information. (Borrowed definitions of the terms you used).

      Yes photography is a slice of reality and it can represent truth because it can evoke catharsis. Insofar as supporting commentary is concerned, some people don't respond to photography because they do not have the capacity to understand the language it utilizes, I guess.

      A. Ever heard the statement: A picture speaks a thousand words?
      B. University of Hawaii Associate Professor of Photography Robert Rodeck once sought to qualify a work that was worthy. He said to think of an image that you would be willing to block the only window to the outside of a cell you occupied in jail. I would venture a guess that what he had hoped we understood by the example is that in this case photography did in fact represent truth as it became an historical document, which required no explanation.
      • Re: What is Art?

        Wed, December 6, 2006 - 5:34 PM
        i am not disputing the fact that photography is an image that speaks a thousand words... what i am saying is that these words cannot be taken for the truth... a skilled photographer can create these words to say what they want to say... truth or not... thats a whole different ballgame altogether... Doreathea Lange, Edward Curtis, Lewis Hine, Ansel Adams & Alfred Stieglitz.... all their images are but representation of their story... cannot be taken as a historical document...

        migrant mother do tell the entire story of the depression era... it was the 'truth' of the depression... BUT it was not the truth of the mother with a teenage kid... lange posed the mom and her kids and intentionally left the teenage daughter out of picture

        point is... TRUTH can and is created...
        • Re: What is Art?

          Wed, December 6, 2006 - 6:00 PM
          even so sperio, most of the images from thoes days are studied as truth. the image of hte migrant mother may have been posed, but the dirt, the clothing, the saddness are reallity. the fact alone that diagloue is created is promising to me .. jenn
          • Re: What is Art?

            Wed, December 6, 2006 - 8:14 PM
            Eugene Smith Life photographer was infamous for exagerating and Staging scenes...so truth depends on whether or not there is some premediation or not.
          • Re: What is Art?

            Fri, December 8, 2006 - 4:50 AM
            yes... it is the TRUTH of the depression era... not the TRUTH of the migrant mother...

            my point is that the TRUTH is what the photographer wants it to be... by the mere fact that one is shooting... one is subjecting the truth to your own biases... so in essence there is not truth... only facets of what you want to have
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          It is all relative.

          Thu, December 7, 2006 - 2:52 AM
          >these words cannot be taken for the truth<

          Sperio,

          These words can and have been taken for truth in the sense that images represent/evoke/inspire dialog/response. I am not sure that a photographer, at least in my case, creates what he wants to say, but rather he takes what he sees exemplifies/stands for the synthesis of reality that he, as a conduit of "truth" has been pondering, whether consciously or unconsciously. It is knowingness. Yes, and as you say the images of great photographers are representations of their story, but it isn't so much their story as it is an historical document that they are true to.

          Yes, the migrant mother does tell the whole story of the depression if that image is the only example. But a photograph of the migrant mother communicates/relates to the viewer's experience of life, his/her own projection of experience and so the truth of the depression era is communicated in relative terms. Lange used the language of metaphor to imply an experience that the mother and her children were going through that we can relate to, not so much as their experience but as ours projecting ourselves into the expectation the information provided to us.

          Of course truth is created but the actual experience of the mother and her kids cannot be truly communicated in us since we are not the mother or her kids. It is no different in that I cannot know what you are feeling/thinking, but I can get a sense of you by looking at you and I can perhaps relate to what you are feeling if you communicate/provide reference for those feelings/thoughts.

          Everything is relative, but "the truth" is also how we feel about witnessed circumstances as seen through the documents of the past., present, and future. I say future, because we can predict a response based on our constancy as human beings and the limitations of our senses. But, of course I can never predict the language we will use to articulate our responses.

          Truth, as a may have mentioned, according to Heidegger was the correctness of propositions and the unhiddenness of beings. This latter definition applies to what I am talking about. Our truth (every unhidden reaction) to the proposals of these photographers is truth. And as you are talking about, truth is also the correctness of the proposition of the subjects in the picture and their feelings. Yes, we cannot know what the mother and her kids were feeling, but we can know the truth given the shared universality of experience based on the impressions garnered from the pictures. What is the taste of strawberries, for example? What does it feel like not to have showered? To have no money? To be afraid? At the very least, we have a fear of the depression, which is created by the image and thus the words that cross our minds.
          • Re: It is all relative.

            Fri, December 8, 2006 - 4:52 AM
            have you seen the series of images lange shot WITH the teenage daughter??? it changes the entire context of the image

            dark vs light image of OJ mug shot...

            tis all subjective... what is the truth??? is what u want it to be...
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              =

              Sat, December 9, 2006 - 2:39 AM
              I believe I saw a number of Lange's images at Oakland Museum that included this famous shot but I don't believe they were exclusive of the depression but they there were a number of "high points" in her career.

              But, I saw the two images of the OJ mug shot and I concur about exposure, a tale is told in light. I once did a series of pieces where I shot a strike at the Hilton Hawaiian Village and certain pieces had the transition of exposure from light to dark, which said different things/revealed different things as the process unfolded. One of the pieces was called "Gray Area," which addressed the issue of truth as a movement from dark to light and where in this case, the truth was not exposed until the most exposure occured. Light changed the context of the images.

              But, I am not sure truth is just subjective. Truth, perhaps as Zizek said, is to view an event, for example, as having parallel views.

              Truth, as Heidegger said, is in part the unhiddeness of beings, which implies subjectivity exposed.

              But, of course, there are many times when I have been sincerely wrong. Heidegger also said that truth was the correctness of propositions, which I would say has a bit less to do with me, for example.
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                Emotional beings in a hurry

                Sat, December 9, 2006 - 3:15 PM
                As I mentioned before, our embodied minds conceive of reality and so I guess you are correct in that even reality is viewed from semi-permeable membranes, which are our bodies: brains, eyes, fingers, mouths, noses, etc. A study said that our hearts picked up (felt) what was true from what was false and then told our brains. We react emotionally to events. Rudolf Arnheim said that there is a predictable objectivity to our subjective response. But, it has also been said that we are free if we have no idea of the controls (Zizek/Uyeda).
  • Re: death of photography debate

    Tue, October 9, 2007 - 9:12 PM
    I don't rely on the technology of my camera to capture what my eye sees. I try to use the technology of the camera to create an image of what my mind envisions.

    Truth is mutable, if there is an inconvenient twig between me and what I want to shoot, I'll remove the twig. I'd rather do it before I shoot than in photoshop, just because it'll be a better image that way. A photo as a historical document is just as valid as scholarly book -- either one can only tell the truth as the creator of it perceives the truth. Lange's migrant tableau is Truth, a snap shot without some forethought might be very interesting, but like a book with slipshod editing, it's only truth, does not have the impact.

    As for standing as a historical document, today at work, across the room from me, a woman was searching through microfiche rolls. The machine was going clatter-clatter-ca-chunk as she spun back and forth through the roll. How long is that piece of celluoid going to last? how long will a magnetic image last? Both need technology to survive and stand the test of time. I expect that digital will long outlast any kind of paper based media. But only as long as both our civilization lasts. Both need regular reproduction to continue on, and the greatest and most important will be preserved. One hopes.
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      Re: death of photography debate

      Thu, October 11, 2007 - 1:49 AM
      "I don't rely on the technology of my camera to capture what my eye sees."

      I am the opposite Brandon, at least in terms of the current body of work I am working on. I am very interested in beauty found in reality with the point of not employing manipulation. I want the camera to dictate what I see.

      I've used the camera as a means of pointing and accepting what comes out, hoping on ocassion when I have no clear vision that the camera and process of photography will give me something I had not planned. But, this is not always the point. And a very important point for me and the implication of a camera registering reality is that I can then say, "This is what I saw; this is reality and from it we can prove a point about reality." This is why I like my digital camera.

      I am not so interested in preservation, because I accept deterioration as a by-product of the inconstancy of life, and yet I agree with you about preservation and believe even the 8-track tape can be transfered to a new medium that might be even better. Certainly, my iMac and software that came with it and what I am getting proves that a great many of us are utilizing technologies that extend ourselves. I might never have considered making movies, for example, but the facility and ease of use allows for us all to dabble until we find the means that fits us well.

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