I'm going to take a little time to respond seriously, albeit somewhat indirectly since it's the background which is most important here.

This is just my observations and understandings, nothing official.

Working with BM staff is a sociological and personal experience, not just a technical one; and most of them are artists, not techies - they make many decisions based on intuition or instinct, not just logic. And that works - nobody being techie focussed and logical has created a comparable event.

I have not experienced that "community mapping" is one of the goals of the organization; that's our goal, and we have to fit that within their overall direction. If we provide a service that makes sense to them, and it doesn't harm their interests (and they are not too overwhelmed with other work, and we haven't personally alienated them...) then they can be very cooperative and friendly.

The way I've gotten some data (within limits) has been to volunteer consistently for multiple years, be reliable, be trustworthy, and be an ally to their needs.

One piece to understand is that the BM staff are uniquely DELUGED almost 24/7/365 in people with great ideas. Imagine if for a decade or more you typically ran into several people a day with wonderful things they were going to do this year or next - and 80% of those never happened (some of that 20% turns out great tho!) As a practical matter of survivial, they tend to respond best to people who follow thru over time. And people who show they can be trusted - like not releasing data without permission.

There is also a factor of being an ally. What I mean by that includes not getting hostile towards them if they don't meet our needs. Any sense that one feels "entitled" or "resentful" will get one a cold shoulder - they don't have time for the thousands of people who could feel the staff "owes them something". (Again, this is my personal understanding).

One can make a case to the senior staff for some change, but if they decide otherwise - it's damaging to whine or complain or make them wrong even subtly. If one is cooperative and respectful, they return that. But they can get stubborn too, if one seems pushy. In addition to all those ideas, they've also heard more complaints and resentments than most of us will in a lifetime, and they don't respond well to that kind of motivation.

In that context, I've looked for how I could be must useful to them, meet their needs and desires, and impact them the least in harmful ways - while providing mapping and GPS services for the participants in general. I really respect the organizers, whether or not I agree with every decision.

In that process, I wound up putting in a lot of effort to support non-GPS users along with GPS users - because there are a heck of a lot more of the former attending and it serves BM as a whole! I have done the GPS stuff I've wanted to do (within the time restrictions) along with other interesting cartographic and database volunteer work. I've made myself useful - and cooperative. I never demand, I don't challenge authority, I don't unduly complain.

I don't want to go further into *my understanding* of the reasons that some mapping and GPS data is released over time; it's basically already been said and reiterating the same stuff just makes it look more like a debate than information gathering. Those who are genuinely interested in understanding have already got that info; those who want to argue or discount won't be convinced by restating it.

I also don't want to speak further to the reasons, because my understanding might be wrong; I don't speak for the senior staff, and I don't make the release decisions. My personal intuitions are that sometimes the given reasons are only part of the story; there may be personal style and other factors as well, perhaps unconscious ones. But that would be at best speculation.

This doesn't at all mean it's hopeless! Vast numbers of things receive staff support every year.

The first step towards getting more data is to come up with a specific use for it, one that's new and exciting and useful to many people, and which cannot be done with the data already being released. The next step is to see how that might be done without harming other people's needs. And the third step is respecting any restrictions they place on it - or respecting their decision not to release it (yet or ever).

I haven't yet heard what specific data is desired, or what new functions it would serve that aren't already being served (and thus which might justify a change in policy). I can't advocate internally for more data release unless and until I have something new and different to excite the staff.

I've seen speculation that the placers should just kick theme camps off if they place themselves. That would be an option. But guess what - it doesn't make the job of being a placer much fun! That is, our speculating on "better way" to handle it is based on somebody else on the spot paying the price of the tradeoffs we'd prefer. The tradeoffs that would make our live easier would make somebody else's life harder. Or so they believe, and they know more about their jobs where the rubber meets the road than we do. (I've frequently found out that some seemingly irrational policy as seen from a distance makes a lot more sense the closer you get to the problem).

There are more sublties involved than even what I've described here. For example, some mapping information has been developed with proprietary software (eg: the lisp variant within AutoCad), not open source. It's not going to be released; all we could get is extracts in some common format.
Which means extra work for some volunteer who may not give a hoot whether you (or I) get the data; what they have is already working for the clients they choose to serve. We cannot threaten, we can only persuade.

Anyway, that's my experience as a longish term volunteer. I'll try to work out win/win situations when I can regarding GPS and mapping stuff. Ask. I'm not the decider, but I enjoy getting more info out so sometime I might be able to help.

Right now, I don't know what potential projects need what data for what new purposes. Ideas (and commitments) for meeting unmet needs would be great.

If it's just "hey I'd personally enjoy having this data to play with", I very much sympathize, but the staff knows that a handful of people want all that data to play with, and that doesn't have enough weight by itself to overbalance their other considerations. We need more - or we need to make the best of what data is already released before asking for more.

Z

So yeah, there may be some reasons not to release the "Detailed" map of where every camp is before the event. Things are going to change some, and some folks won't like the changes.

I guess the first thing is to remember the old Axiom, "The map ain't the territory".
Meaning, whatever you see on the map, it might not jib with what you see on the ground.

Still, I'd bet that the placers have a pretty good map of where they plan to place each camp BEFORE that camp shows up to be placed. (something similar to the Playa info map released later in the week).

HOW WOULD YOU USE SUCH A MAP ??
I'd love to scan out the camps that I'd like to check out. (NO, just using the theme camp listings ain't enough, I'm a "Visual" person. I wanna see it.

I wanna see who my neighbors are ?

I'd really like to get the map as something that I can put on a PDA, (VS that much more expensive GPS). Just shows the map, and click to get the Camp description, and maybe any "Scheduled" events in the WHO, WHAT, WHEN guild.

I think it would be an interesting article to "Rate" the interactivity of camps. (With Map). I have to admit that some camps I go by over and over again, and I can't see what the heck they are offering. Night or day.
Heck, put some gold stars on the map for great camps.
How else would you use a more detailed map ??

DISTRICTS
No, not villages, but districts.
Like in some parts of other countries, there's a "Jewelry" district.
I'd love BM to have a Body Art and Costume district. Just place all the camps that offer this in the same area.
PAMPER DISTRICT
Foot washes, hairwashes, pedicure, Massages, etc.
What other districts would you like to see ??