Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 11:29 AMI've been telling people for about ten years now that the record industry is not fooling around. They can't sue everyone, but they sure can and will make examples out of those they do sue.
About 90% of all music downloads are illegal, and music downloads are where most of the business is now that CD sales are in steep decline.
So, you've got an industry in which 90% of the product is flying out the door without people paying. And you don't think the record industry isn't going to use every legal remedy it has to fight back? Think they'll feel sorry for you and cut you some slack? Guess again, they're out for blood.
A common response I hear is that the music industry must adapt or die, that the music industry is at fault for not finding another way to deal with the reality of the internet.
Maybe. Whatever. I could care less, I'm not in that industry. Bitch all you want about the record industry. It's all irrelevant when it comes to defending one of these lawsuits.
What I have tried to tell people is, yeah, steal music, and you can get popped. Big time. For real.
These cases are difficult to defend, trust me, I've been there and done that. While I usually can whoop ass on big business lawsuits against little guys, and win them time and time again for the little guy, this is not the case in copyright law. If the evidence is there that you stole the music -- and that is not hard to prove in most cases --- they can make you pay. It's the law. Copyright law. The statutory damages can be huge. Unfair! Don't like it! TOO BAD.
Don't like the law? Lobby congress to get rid of copyright law if you don't like it. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, if you get sued by the record industry and they've got the evidence on you that you knowingly stole the music, you need to get out your check book and settle the damned case.
That's just the way it is, like it or not. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 11:34 AMThe odds of getting popped are pretty freakin slim. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 12:02 PMYes and no.
If you are a big time file sharer, uploading lots of files for people to steal, your odds go way up. But they also pick average joes, small time downloaders, for the very purpose of trying to make an example.
But yes, of the millions and millions of people doing it, only thousands of them are being sued. However, if you are one of the unlucky ones who gets sued, it is going to cost you.
My success rate in defending the little guy against big business is about 99%. I can go up against these big guns, and on a shoe string defense budget, win almost every time. I don't publicize this much because I don't want to be swamped these kinds of cases, but damn, I'm good.
But my success rate in defending music thieves? Zero. Granted, I only defended one such case. That was enough for me to see there was nothing to be done. The record company had all its evidence, all its ducks lined up in a row, and was not going to compromise, budge, or be persuaded. It is all about making an example, and they are treating it as if their livelihood depends on it --- because it does. So no amount of maneuvering, posturing, putting them to their burden of proof, nothing that a defense lawyer would normally do did any good. Sure, we had a defense. Did they give a shit? No. Insist on going to trial? Fine, they'll show up with all their lawyers. Like I said, they're just not messing around. They don't care what it costs, and they don't care if they'll never collect a dime. They are making examples. Man, that just sucks, to have someone trying to make an example out of you. It makes it very difficult to negotiate.
Now, I am talking about people who are guilty. If you are innocent, tyou have some kind of innocent explanation, that's another matter, those cases can be defended, though they are extremely aggressive even in those cases. Take, for example, the lady whose child was doing all the downloading. The record company didn't care. They still came after the mom.
Anyhow, your chances of getting sued may be slim, but if you do get sued, you're hosed. It's your choice. You play, you take your chances.
-
-
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 3:27 PM$1.9 million is very excessive. This is a perfect example of copyright abuse. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 8:38 PMIt's an example of corporate abuse.
While the bankers that caused the meltdown have not even been slapped with a fine. They still get their bonuses.
People have to neuter the corporations. -
-
‘Insane’ file-sharing verdict could challenge law’s constitutionality
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 8:43 PM‘Insane’ file-sharing verdict could challenge law’s constitutionality
Posted By Muriel Kane On June 19, 2009 @ 9:02 pm In
In the first file-sharing case to go to trial in the United States, a Minnesota jury has [1] ruled that a 32 year old woman must pay the music industry $1.92 million dollars for illegally making 24 songs available for sharing from her hard drive.
The woman, Jammie Thomas-Rasset, had originally been accused of uploading 1700 songs to Kazaa. An earlier verdict of $220,000 was [2] overturned because of a faulty jury instruction, with the judge [3] describing even that lower amount as “unprecedented and oppressive.”
After today’s ruling, Thomas-Rasset called the damages “ridiculous” and said she had no means of paying them. A representative of the Recording Industry Association of America said the music companies were willing to settle for a much smaller amount, which based on past cases might still be in the tens of thousands of dollars.
A blog entry at technology news site ZDNet, however, [4] describes the verdict as “insane” and suggests that it “could prove [the] RIAA’s downfall.”
Lawyer and tech writer Richard Koman points out several serious problems with the amount of the verdict. For example, the law used in the case normally prescribes damages of $750 to $30,000 per infringement. The judgement against Thomas-Rasset comes out to $80,000 per song — an amount which is considered appropriate only when there has been “willful” infringement, which would seem to mean a crime committed for profit or out of a desire to do deliberate harm.
Koman says he also spoke with Ray Beckerman of the blog Recording Industry v. the People. Beckerman has been following the case closely and has no doubt that it could serve as a test cast to challenge the constitutionality of the law. He told Koman, “Courts have repeatedly held that statutory damages can be more than actual damages but only by two or three times.”
An [2] analysis by the Electronic Freedom Foundation goes more deeply into the constitutional issues. It notes that “recent Supreme Court rulings suggest that a jury may not award statutory damages for the express or implicit purpose of deterring other infringers who are not parties in the case before the court. … If the record industry lawyers urged the jury to ’send a message’ to the millions of other American file-sharers out there, they may have crossed the constitutional line.”
At his own blog, Beckerman [5] points out that in this case, the statutory damages are 228,571 times as much as the actual damages of $0.35 per song. “it is clear from reports I am seeing that this verdict is making the US an international laughingstock,” he states, “providing great fuel to those inclined to laugh in their beer at the US justice system. When will the courts do something to stop this madness?”
URLs in this post:
[1] ruled: news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/h...8108589.stm
[2] overturned: www.eff.org/deeplinks/20...labels-awarde
[3] describing: www.eff.org/deeplinks/20...al-implores-c
[4] describes: government.zdnet.com/
[5] points out: recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/
rawstory.com/08/news/200...tutionality/
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 19, 2009 - 10:19 PMY'all's responses are highly charged with emotion and devoid of comprehension of the law.
Corporate abuse? How? It was the jury who went nuts with the verdict, as juries sometimes do. The corporations committed no abuse, they were just trying to defend their property rights, keeping in mind that their industry is dying because of this kind of theft.
When juries return huge damages awards against big corporations, you applaud, but when the same court systems are used by the corporations to protect their property interests, you scream foul. It's called the rule of law, not the rule of liberal, okay?
Willful infringement of copyrights carries potentially large statutory damages, and this law applies equally regardless of who is the infringer and who is the copyright holder. If a giant corporation was infringing on the copyright of a little guy, the law would apply exactly the same.
Having said all that, this particular award does raise some constitutional issues, because the amount seems excessive, but bear in mind, that same rule about excessive awards will also be used to cut back giant verdicts against big corporations.
Anyhow, the woman stole property, and her actions, combined with the actions of millions of other little internet thieves, are destroying an entire industry. The award may be excessive, but the law does not provide for just a slap on the wrist. The jury has the discretion to pop her, big time. Her complaint that she can't pay? Irrelevant. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 6:22 AMI didn't see a jury go out and drag this woman into court. The RIAA initiated this case.
Corporate abuse. Yes. The industry is going broke. Hardly. Maybe some of the artists that are not compensated for their work but the recording industry, no.
Corporate abuse yes. Corporations have a special status in the legal system. THey get to sue like a person in cases like this but are immune from a lot of harsh penalties when they abuse the law and customers. When was the last time a corporation was put to death for killing someone? -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 9:05 AMTime for a proxy server.
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 9:06 AMIs it shameful corporate behavior? -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 9:16 AMWell, it certainly is stupid. it's primarily a failure to adapt. Downloading is opportunity not tragedy. They could easily switch this around in their favor and benefit from it rather than costing *us* (the taxpayers who pay for these court cases to be tried) tons of money to protect what? The rights of the artists? Or the rights of those who have generated huge monopolies that actually diminishes our ability to hear good music rather than facilitating it?
The business model they are operating under is archaic and impedes not only the flow of money but the development of the art. Why should we pay to assist them in this bs? How much did that case cost us? the downfall of the *music* industry would not cause me to lose sleep at night. Copyright laws are not serving their intended purpose, they are becoming another tool for huge monopolies and centralized business interests that benefits the few at the expense of the many. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 9:50 AM>>The business model they are operating under is archaic and impedes not only the flow of money but the development of the art. <<
Hear, hear.
Movies, television, and music will no longer come from a corporate feed. Boooo hooooo.
Arguing for corporations' right to sue anyone over "intellectual property" is absurd - the arugment paints self-destruction as some kind of virtue. It isn't - it's just cowardice and sloth.
Screw the RIAA; power to the uploaders, death to the corporate predators and slavedrivers, and forgiveness to the sheep which can't help but bleat "waah it's the law" - you didn't make that law, chattel. That law isn't there for anyone's well being, no matter how hard anyone tries to pretend it "protects" artists.
No amount of hilarious panicked foot-shootings perpetrated by the criminals that have strangled arts industries will stop bees from landing on flowers. Outlawing bees is stupid.
RIAA / MPAA: die faster. I laugh and spit on your graves. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 20, 2009 - 10:58 AM"No amount of hilarious panicked foot-shootings perpetrated by the criminals that have strangled arts industries will stop bees from landing on flowers. Outlawing bees is stupid. "
lol, they're working on driving them extinct! Much as they are were with artists. But I love the idea that art and the love of art is irrepressible, we have been caught in a system that developed by fighting reality and sooner or later that world view was bound to crash land, that mentality is the path to extinction, let the dinosaur monopoly driven, profit at any price idiots go down the drain where they belong, they can be some future generations petroleum resource, but there's no reason for us to support their attempts to fight reality. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Wed, June 24, 2009 - 2:06 PMAnyone who thinks anything the RIAA does is about art or artists ought to check their head for leaks. The record industry financed itself by ripping off artists and shoveling shit at fans for decades and now, out of sheer brain-burning incompetence, they must have this kind of government subsidy in order to live at all.
Can an industry can survive by suing its customers? I doubt it very much. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Wed, June 24, 2009 - 6:14 PMAnd that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is from somebody who works closely with the industry. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 6:40 AM"And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is from somebody who works closely with the industry."
Rockstar is not the only one here who has some inside knowledge of the music industry. a.m. did legal work for an indepedent label. And it ain't just the majors who are hurting. A lot of the indies are getting wiped out, too, along with the indie record stores.
The internet and home computer based recording studios have created opportunities for musicians to take complete control of their careers, but it has also created some very serious revenue challenges and for musicians who need a label to promote them, the opportunties are all but dried up. There is very little investment in artists now. You are on your own.
The one thing I have to say about the music industry: Just about everyone in it, except for the musicians, is a dirt bag. Especially the managers, agents and music industry lawyers, talk about sleeze. Ask a.m. about that one. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 27, 2009 - 1:21 PM<< Rockstar is not the only one here who has some inside knowledge of the music industry >>
Modified Limited Hang-Out Dept.- Without going into too much detail, most of my professional contact within the music biz has as the kind of privileged *out*sider a critic/journalist is supposed to be. I've done a few freelance industry gigs as a writer and was always well-paid, treated with respect and my words unfucked with. The point-of-contact people- publicists, A&R, even the heads of small labels- you meet are overwhelmingly good folks caught in much the same low-paying industry grind as the musicians upon which the big labels feed. I'm pretty sure that didn't happen by accident.
<< A lot of the indies are getting wiped out, too, along with the indie record stores. >>
Almost all gone in L.A., except for mighty Amoeba at Sunset and Ivar. Long may it rock.
<<< some very serious revenue challenges >>
Yes. The public is now doing to them what they did to the public all these years. They can't think a way around it and WON'T restructure, so they'll eventually end up inhabiting a corporate version of the tarpit on Wilshire Blvd. Such is what happens to the heavily armored and too dumb to live. The poor bastards being sued into oblivion are collateral damage, I fear.
<< and for musicians who need a label to promote them, the opportunties are all but dried up. >>
Unless you're willing to work your ass off touring and put out fewer albums and EPs. That's how the rising gen of rockers are adapting and it can be rewarding for those able to stand the gaff.
-
-
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Wed, June 24, 2009 - 8:56 PMHey Rockstar;
This might be the appropriate place to ask this question I've had for a long time.
I've been buying the music that I want online usually from an artist's website but sometimes from iTunes if that's where it's available. I'm not too worried about buying from an artist's website 'cause I figure that's going straight to them. What about iTunes - how much of that 99 cents/song goes to the artist?
I've heard of people downloading music from each other but I've never done that - maybe I'm the fool for not doing it (or for not even knowing where to look) but I don't really mind paying for music if I know the artist is getting a decent cut of it. I like to get paid for my work and I don't begrudge an artist one cent of that money. I figure someone needs to put bread on their table so they can keep making music that I like. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 7:19 AM"I've been buying the music that I want online usually from an artist's website but sometimes from iTunes if that's where it's available. I'm not too worried about buying from an artist's website 'cause I figure that's going straight to them. What about iTunes - how much of that 99 cents/song goes to the artist?"
--depends on what kind of deal the musician has with his or her label. The music label is usually the one who makes the deal with itunes.
Here are all the people who get a take:
1. Itunes/Apple
2. Aggregators - these are the companies that bundle up the music and actually upload it to itunes on behalf of the small labels.
3. The music label.
The music label then has to pay everyone who has a cut or gets a royalty, which may include publishers and distributors, and somewhere out of this, the musician gets paid. But out of the musician's cut, there may be the musician's agents, managers and lawyers to be paid.
Most musicians I have talked to who have music on itunes get a few cents from each 99 cent download.
See, in the music industry, there are a whole lot of people who have their hands out. The musicans get paid last.
The only player who is really making a killing on itunes is Apple. They get a nice cut for doing nothing other than running a computer store front. Apple is not even in the music business. They don't promote or develop any artists. But Apple gets paid first.
Itunes is essentially the vehicle by which Apple created demand for its iPod. Apple is in the business of selling ipods. Itunes is incidental to Apple's business, but it is lucrative for them. However, at 99 cents a song, there's just not that much money to be made for the labels and the musicians. Apple doesn't care. Apple wants the price of MP3 downloads to be artificially low because that just helps create more demand for iPods. Apple could care less whether this is good or bad for musicians or the music industry, because Apple is not in the music industry.
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 27, 2009 - 1:33 PMThe only music I download is advance stuff sent to me for review. The CDs I actually *buy* these days are usually out-of-print, imports and rarities, so the people making money off me are typically at the record shop itself. I like it that way.
I've heard this and that about the split with iTunes. As Mister Fite suggests, it all depends upon the contract and how many hands are at the payout window.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 6:29 AM"Anyone who thinks anything the RIAA does is about art or artists ought to check their head for leaks. The record industry financed itself by ripping off artists and shoveling shit at fans for decades and now, out of sheer brain-burning incompetence, they must have this kind of government subsidy in order to live at all.
Can an industry can survive by suing its customers? I doubt it very much."
****
Any industry whose product is an intellectual property that can be easily reproduced or stolen must remain vigilant and take legal action to shut down infringers and to deter other infringers. This is true not just for the music industry, but also for film, publishing, software, you name it, if your product is an intellectual property, the legal system is the main reason you are able to sell your product without everyone else stealing it.
The cable TV and satellite industries have sued the hell out of customers for stealing their product, and no one is making your "Can an industry can survive by suing its customers? I doubt it very much" claim with regard to them.
In parts of the world where intellectual property rights are not honored, like much of Asia, about 99% of all foreign CDs, DVDs and software are pirated. If all of the world was like that, their would be no publishing, film or music businesses as we know them. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 6:59 PMsearching for the down side.
help me out: why do we need Britney to be a millionaire, again? -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 9:24 PMTo reward her for distracting people from how bad they are getting suckered by the society of the spectacle.
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 27, 2009 - 6:21 AMI really don't care if y'all "agree" or "disagree" or "like" or "don't like" or "approve" or "disapprove" of lawsuits over copyright violations. It's not open to debate. You are no more likely to change copyright law in this regard than you are to change the U.S. Constitution.
The fact is, we've had copyright statutes in this country for a very long time, these laws give the owners of copyrights legal remedies against infringement, and if you infringe on these copyrights, you might get sued. Doesn't matter who you are.
I talked to many Napster-junkies who seemed incredulous that they might actually get sued. How dare they sue me! How dare they! I love music! I love my favorite bands, that is why I now own their entire catalogs of music, Napster made it possible! Fuck the music industry! Fuck the music industry!
You folks know that is all totally irrelevant? When you get sued for copyright infringement - in federal court - all this grandstanding about how bad the music industry is - is inadmissible. You won't even get the satisfaction of getting to talk about it. If that is your defense, the case will be over before you can even open your mouth.
It's called a summary judgment. -
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Sat, June 27, 2009 - 4:34 PMooooh tough man gonna wag fangers on them downloaders, they gonna get theirs, yesiree
YAWN Sorry old-timer. Seems to be playing out differently IRL. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Mon, June 29, 2009 - 2:04 PMThe record industry has sued bunches of downloaders, and has, by and large, obtained default judgments, summary judgments, or settlements from the downloaders who got sued. Few of the downloaders have been able to argue or negotiate their way out of it.
That's just the facts. Sorry if you don't agree with them, feel free to make up your own facts. That is what people do on tribe.
My facts, however, are not made up. The court records speak for themselves.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Woman fined to tune of $1.9 million for illegal downloads
Wed, June 24, 2009 - 7:16 AM