How deep is the recession

topic posted Tue, April 29, 2008 - 7:36 PM by  B
The for-sale listings on the online hub Craigslist come with plaintive notices, like the one from the teenager in Georgia who said her mother lost her job and pleaded, "Please buy anything you can to help out."

Or the seller in Milwaukee who wrote in one post of needing to pay bills — and put a diamond engagement ring up for bids to do it.

Struggling with mounting debt and rising prices, faced with the toughest economic times since the early 1990s, Americans are selling prized possessions online and at flea markets at alarming rates.

To meet higher gas, food and prescription drug bills, they are selling off grandmother's dishes and their own belongings. Some of the household purging has been extremely painful — families forced to part with heirlooms.

"This is not about downsizing. It's about needing gas money," said Nancy Baughman, founder of eBizAuctions, an online auction service she runs out of her garage in Raleigh, N.C. One former affluent customer is now unemployed and had to unload Hermes leather jackets and Versace jeans and silk shirts.

At Craigslist, which has become a kind of online flea market for the world, the number of for-sale listings has soared 70 percent since last July. In March, the number of listings more than doubled to almost 15 million from the year-ago period.

Craigslist CEO Jeff Buckmaster acknowledged the increasing popularity of selling all sort of items on the Web, but said the rate of growth is "moving above the usual trend line." He said he was amazed at the desperate tone in some ads.

In Daleville, Ala., Ellona Bateman-Lee has turned to eBay and flea markets to empty her three-bedroom mobile home of DVDs, VCRs, stereos and televisions.

She said she needs the cash to help pay for soaring food and utility bills and mounting health care expenses since her husband, Bob, suffered an electric shock on the job as a dump truck driver in 2006 and is now disabled.

Among her most painful sales: her grandmother's teakettle. She sold it for $6 on eBay.

"My grandmother raised me, so it hurt," she said. "We've had bouts here and there, but we always got by. This time it's different."

Economists say it is difficult to compare the selling trend with other tough times because the Internet, only in wide use since the mid-1990s, has made it much easier to unload goods than, say, at pawn shops.

But clearly, cash-strapped people are selling their belongings at bargain prices, with a flood of listings for secondhand cars, clothing and furniture hitting the market in recent months, particularly since January.

Earlier this decade, people tapped their inflated home equity and credit cards to fuel a buying binge. Now, slumping home values and a credit crisis have sapped sources of cash.

Meanwhile, soaring gas and food prices haven't kept pace with meager wage growth. Gas prices have already hit $4 per gallon in some places, and that could become more widespread this summer. The weakening job market is another big worry.

Christine Hadley, a 53-year-old registered nurse from Reading, Pa., says she used to be "a clotheshorse," splurging on pricey Dooney & Bourke handbags. But her live-in boyfriend left last year, and she has had trouble finding a job.

Piles of unpaid bills forced her to sell more than 80 items, including the handbags, which went for more than $1,000 on a site called AuctionPal.com. Now, except for some artwork and threadbare furniture, her house is looking sparse.

"I need the money for essentials — to pay my bills and to eat," Hadley said.

At AuctionPal.com, which helps novices sell things online, for-sale listings rose 66 percent from February to March, much faster than the 25 percent to 30 percent average monthly pace since the company was formed in September, CEO Maureen Ellenberger said. She said she was surprised to see that most of her clients desperately needed to sell items to raise cash.

For LiveDeal.com, a classifieds and business directory site, for-sale listings for January through March rose 10 percent from the previous year.

"We can definitely detect economic stress on the part of the consumer," said John Raven, the site's chief operating officer.

On Craigslist, Buckmaster said, three of the four fastest-growing for-sale categories are tied to gas — recreational vehicles like campers and trailers, cars and trucks, and boats.

Raven noted more and more listings for furniture, particularly in areas around Miami and Las Vegas and other regions hardest hit by the housing crisis.

Baughman, who runs eBizAuctions, said that over the past four months she's been working with mostly desperate sellers instead of mainly casual ones. Most are middle-class customers who can't pay their bills and now want to be paid up front for the items instead of waiting until they are sold, she said.

The trend may be hurting secondhand stores too. Donations to the Salvation Army were down 20 percent in the January-to-March period. George Hood, the charity's national community relations and development secretary, said that was probably partly because people were selling their belongings instead.

And secondhand buyers want better deals now as well, driving prices down. Secondhand merchandise online is going for 25 to 35 percent below what it commanded a year ago, estimated Brian Riley, senior analyst at research firm The TowerGroup.

It won't hit the saturation point until the (economy) hits the bottom and right now, we don't know when that is," he said.

In Alabama, Bateman-Lee said that she only received $30 for her TV and $45 for her DVD player at a local flea market. She doesn't have too much left to sell, but she's going back to "sort through more things."

Her $30 water bill is due this week.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24375110/
posted by:
B
offline B
  • Re: How deep is the recession

    Tue, April 29, 2008 - 9:32 PM
    Food Riots. Nuff said
    • Re: How deep is the recession

      Tue, April 29, 2008 - 9:39 PM
      Oh, man. I just read that L. A.s power going out will triple this year over the last few years. Yeah the food riots. We luck out buy paying more. North Ice Cap gone. This i wouldn't have said 10 years ago, It is going to be very unpleasant folks. Your government wont save you, no business will be your friend.
      • B
        B
        offline 113

        Re: How deep is the recession

        Wed, April 30, 2008 - 6:22 AM
        <Your government wont save you,>

        This is not a comment for you because I know you know better. But when was it, as in the decade that the government changed to caring just about business and the people lost track of that and still drank the government kool aid? Was it before the depression? Maybe in the 1800's? The idea of the citizen politician going in to government "service' and that means to serve the people was what this country was founded on? Several presidents held to that, hell Andress jackson even killed off one of the central banks. Maybe it was when the FED finally had a grip on the money and hence the government power base.
  • Re: How deep is the recession

    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:45 AM
    actually - there was economic growth this qtr...

    sorry about your predictions of impending doom.
    • Re: How deep is the recession

      Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:11 AM
      The American economy remained stuck in the slow lane over the first three months of the year, expanding by a modest 0.6 percent annualized rate, the Commerce Department announced Wednesday morning.

      The weak performance reflected the increasingly thrifty inclinations of American consumers in the face of plummeting real estate prices, tightening credit and a deteriorating job market. Economic growth was also hampered by a continued pullback in construction and business investment.

      Still the number was slightly better than expected and helped to push the major market indexes higher on Wednesday.

      The only factors preventing the economy from sliding backward were the growth of American exports — aided by a weakening dollar — and a buildup of inventories by businesses. Exports and inventories set aside, final sales of American goods and services domestically dipped at a 0.4 percent annualized rate in inflation-adjusted terms, the first decline since the end of 1991.

      Consumer spending grew at an anemic 1 percent annualized rate, down from 2.9 percent in 2007 and 3.1 percent the year before.

      “You’re seeing a sharp slowdown in domestic demand,” said Michael T. Darda, chief economist at MKM Partners in Greenwich, Conn. “This is stall-speed growth.”

      Economists suggested that swelling inventories — which grew by $1.8 billion from January to March, after decreasing by $18.3 billion in the previous three months — portends potential trouble in the months ahead: If business does not swiftly improve, allowing factories to sell goods they have piled up, companies are likely to lay off workers at a more aggressive clip, taking more paychecks out of an economy already suffering from a sagging propensity to spend.

      www.nytimes.com/2008/04/30...on-web.html
      • Re: How deep is the recession

        Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:44 PM
        The way the gov't fudges the numbers for PR has created a totally false understanding of the actual state of the economy..it started with kennedy and continues through bush 2..little tweaks on the calculating factors here and there...discounting important things (only considering people "unemployed" if they are still looking for work, not counting the chronically unemployed), indexing on absurd standards (like determining the poverty line based on the average cost of a loaf of white bread instead of on the average cost of housing), and funding dangerous bubbles to get them through to the next election cycle (savings and loan, junk bonds, handouts to subprime lenders)

        The way things REALLY are would shock most americans who have no idea how tenuous their lives really are until it collapses around them. Hands on hearts, they wax poetic about how great the USA is while their future is frought with debt, starvation and increasing social collapse. They marvel at the nice people on their HOA while jobs are moved to third world nations without labor laws and towns fall down around them. They lust after cookie cutter homes in the exurbs without considering the fact that "developments" further out of town reduce available agricultural land and increase dependence on oil while they have to drive EVEN MORE to live there..driving up the price of commodities like wheat and driving the nation to attack oil rich countries like Iraq....oh, American Idol is on..who cares?
        • Re: How deep is the recession

          Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:03 PM
          I reflecton an a similar thought, and realized that this is going to be an awful situation and we are barely understanding what is happening because of it. This is not a thought that I would have even considered 3 years ago.
          • Re: How deep is the recession

            Wed, April 30, 2008 - 11:55 PM
            I considered it 3 years ago, but I confess still don't know what to do. A personal exit strategy seems like the best idea. Take what I got and go to a place without so far to fall. Get a garden and a gun, because food might be hard to come by.
        • Re: How deep is the recession

          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 7:16 AM
          *************The way the gov't fudges the numbers for PR************

          Don't forget Clinton's fuzzy math that let him claim low inflation (a lie) and a balanced budget (another lie).
          Since Clinton effectuated his new fuzzy numbers game you can bet your life that no following president is going to mess with the scheme. To do so would do two things no one in office wants: (1) it'd make it harder to claim rosy economics and (2) suddently during your term things would look much darker -cause you told the truth. Neither is the thing any one expects of a politician.

          After all: Politics is the art of the possible.

          You take the possible, the do-able, the thing that is most easily accomplished, and then using craft, language, and smoke & mirrors you make it appear as though you have accomplished a great and stupendous thing, overcoming impossible odds while all the time you did as little as humanly possible.

          That's politics.

          If you ( whoever you are) think a politician is going to ever do the hard thing - you are a fool.
          • Re: How deep is the recession

            Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:01 PM
            Oh, I agree Cliff.

            The fudging started with Kennedy..and it was Clinton who really put the nail in the coffin by changing the critera for what constitutes "unemployed".

            I am bipartisan on this topic..the dems and reps have both done it and continue to do it.
  • Re: How deep is the recession

    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:26 AM
    Unless you are old enough to have experiences the recessions that plagued Jimi (the racist bigot) Carter and the attendant unemployment and skyrocketing interest rates - - well unless you experienced trying to feed and house a family then you haven't got any sort of realistic reference points.

    This is like nothing compared to that. And that was as nothing compared to the great depression.
    This economic down turn is almost below the radar compared to the 70's.

    It's patently laughable to watch the whimpering, spoiled, over indulged, I-ME-generation, sissy girls whining about hard times. You little girls don't know what hardship is.



    • Re: How deep is the recession

      Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:44 PM
      Cheer up . . . if the Republicans keep exporting jobs, deregulating, importing cheap foreign labor, borrowing money from foreigners to give themselves tax cuts, spending billions to bail out sick corporations, and wasting money on endless wars, things will get as bad as you could possibly want . . .
      • Re: How deep is the recession

        Wed, April 30, 2008 - 2:30 PM
        Economist: Coming economic shocks could spark depression

        When a Gallup Poll showed that 59% of Americans believe a full-fledged economic depression is “somewhat likely” within the next two years, WCCO News in Minneapolis sought out economics professor Raymond Robertson to ask, “Is this the recession that will become a depression?”

        “It’s hard to say,” Robertson answered. “Any of the potential shocks that we face could easily slip us into a very, very serious depression.”

        Robertson noted that because of safeguards put in place after the Great Depression of the 1930’s, “if you look at recessions over the last 50 to 60 years, they’ve become more mild, they’ve become shorter.”

        However, he worries about other problems that could eventually spark a depression, including our “astronomical” trade deficit, the falling dollar, and our out-of-control national debt, much of it owned to other nations.

        “If they stop lending us money, we’re going to have to repay that debt ourselves,” Robertson told WCCO. “We would either have to cut spending … or we’d have to raise taxes” — either of which could cause a depression — “or the United States government would have to go into default.”

        “We’re going to have to do some very serious sacrifice and work in order to correct these problems,” Robertson concluded.

        This video is from WCCO Minneapolis , broadcast April 29, 2008.

        rawstory.com/rawreplay/

        Video at sight as well. Those who don't have broadband still will have the jist of it in the article above.
        • Re: How deep is the recession

          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:05 PM
          Here's what should keep you up at night.

          Anthropologists have claimed for decades that economic collapse brings down societies of all kinds..from tiny isolated tribes that use up all the resources on an island to massive, millenia-long empires like Rome. Forget plagues and wars..it comes down to buliding a society on a limited resource and thinking it will last forever..that THIS time it will be different.

          Over the long haul (millenia) we as a species never learn this lesson and do this over and over again.
      • Re: How deep is the recession

        Thu, May 1, 2008 - 7:20 AM
        ************Cheer up . . . if the Republicans keep exporting jobs, deregulating, importing cheap foreign labor, borrowing money from foreigners to give themselves tax cuts, spending billions to bail out sick corporations, and wasting money on endless wars, things will get as bad as you could possibly want . . .*************

        Indulge me:

        How on earth can anyone, any group, any policies stop jobs from following the poverty train around the globe?
        Seriously, I can only think of one way to accomplish it and that's not going to happen again: ( tinyurl.com/yseflg )
    • B
      B
      offline 113

      Re: How deep is the recession

      Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:30 PM
      Yess I lived through the seventies. They were bad and these times are just as bad in just a slightly different way. During the seventies I was able to put myself through university working part time. Today you cannot work your way through college. Loans are abundant. Today you have to go deep into debt to get a higher education. Unless your family is rich of course. The GINI index was not anywhere near where it is today. And Today it is at the same lever it was just before the great depression. Too many people are deep in debt just to pay for an education, medical tratement, a mortgage or for the cost of getting to work.
      • Re: How deep is the recession

        Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:07 PM
        Now Cliff assumes that anybody who is not liked by white supremacist's are racist. I too have remembered the 70's and it wasn't nearly as bad as even now. Now Carter wasn't to blame for the bad economy, it was the severe oil prices which when adjusted for inflation, was not broken until just this year.
        • B
          B
          offline 113

          Re: How deep is the recession

          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 6:00 AM
          I don't want to comment on what Cliff thinks because I don't really know. But I can comment on what he posts and think we should all do that.

          While all our views are shaded with time and what we think the seventies were like we have facts and statistics to go on. Statistics are also bad but what else is there until it becomes history. The biggest problem is that as was mentioned the statistics 'manufactured' by the government have all beed "tweeked" through the decades to tune up those rose colored glasses and manufacture a better economy than there really is. The GINI index has not changed that much and it tells an economy that is worse than the seventies from the standpoint of economic inequality.

          One thing that is happening that is similar to the seventies is poor to no growth and increased inflation. Remember that? Stagflation. If the FED tries to fight stagflation the way volker did with 17% interest rates what do you think that would do to all the ARMs and credit cards out there. And how long would the economy survive?
        • Re: How deep is the recession

          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 8:00 AM
          ****************Now Cliff assumes that anybody who is not liked by white supremacist's are racist.***********

          Ohhhh Loookky: The Great Mental The Mindless - The supreme mind reader is going to prognosticate and divine what lies in the mind of the evil bad nasty Cliff.


          ***********I too have remembered the 70's*************

          You were TEN YEARS OLD in 1973.
          Give me a fucking break~!!
          You weren't even old enough to buy a beer until at least 1999 probably 2001.
          Give me a fucking break~~??



          ********** and it wasn't nearly as bad as even now.***********

          You have absolutely ZERO reference points. You were a little child during the 1970s.

          ****************Now Carter wasn't to blame for the bad economy, it was the severe oil prices which when adjusted for inflation, was not broken until just this year.************

          HA HA HA HA HA Do you make this shit up as you go along? You must.
      • Re: How deep is the recession

        Thu, May 1, 2008 - 7:51 AM
        *****************Yess I lived through the seventies. They were bad and these times are just as bad in just a slightly different way.**********
        I was supporting a family on one pay check . I took a new job more often than I can recall.

        By trade I was a machinist toolmaker. Yet because work was so scarce I worked the back of garbage trucks shaking cans into them. We'd show up at 5:30-AM and the drivers would pick their crews like teams are selected in a sandlot baseball team. If you weren't picked you didn't work and didn't get paid.

        I drove a "tidy bug" A little truck the size of a VW with an open bed. I'd run a routs going from house to house. In the back yards behind the houses were in the ground under a metal flip cover, metal cans three feet long and 18" wide. The cans were perforated with quarter size holes all over. You'd flip the cover on the surface of the ground and haul the stinking rancid filthy maggot invested mess dripping all the hell over you to the truck where you had to grab he can at the bottom and flip it into the truck bed usually getting splattered with the rotting festering shit then return the can and off to the next house.

        Over and over I'd take work with a little machine shop where I was promised lots of steady work, government contracts, and over time. Every shingle time the fact was that the only hired you to catch up on an over load. You got over time all right for about three weeks and then one day you'd show up and your punch card would be gone. The faster your worked the faster you put yourself out of work. Because as soon as you caught 'em up you were out.

        Or those wonderful piece rate shops where you were paid by the piece and the piece rate was established by how fast any given job could be done. You'd spend all morning doing the trigonometry and other calculations necessary to set your job up and then go to break. When you returned your paperwork was gone - poof vanished. No one wants the new guy upsetting the apple cart.

        I worked for an insane asylum where people would shit in their pants and stand around screaming for hours at a time wiping feces on every surface they could find and flinging it at you if you came withing striking distance.

        It was a real recession and it required strength of character to get through it. Where is the strength of character in the I-ME-generation?
        They have none. They want the government to pick up where their mommies left off.
        Obama sees this. He lies and tells you that there is velvet inside his velvet glove. There is tyranny inside. There always has been throughout all of history. That's a problem with the left in general. They keep trying the same things over and over and every time they fail and the result is horror yet they forget and try it again.

        ************During the seventies I was able to put myself through university working part time.*********

        During the 70's I fed housed, and clothed a family.

        ****************** Today you cannot work your way through college. Loans are abundant.**********

        BALDERDASH~!!!!! You probably can't work your way through Brown or Yale but you sure as christ can work your way through college.
        People are doing it in nearly every school in the country.

        ************Today you have to go deep into debt to get a higher education.***********

        I borrowed money to go to school all the way from my undergrad in the 80's through Grad school and then my doctorate in 2000.
        I paid my educational loans off by re-hab'ing old houses and selling 'em.

        **********Unless your family is rich of course.************

        Fucking kids are so god dammed spoiled. they want everything to come easy and now. This is nonsense.

        **********The GINI index was not anywhere near where it is today. Today it is at the same lever it was just before the great depression.************

        So what? You going to roll over and declare yourself defeated because of some index?
        What about all the other factors that make the old indexes invalid.
        What about the global market – which you can look to.

        ******** Too many people are deep in debt just to pay for an education, medical tratement, a mortgage or for the cost of getting to work.**********

        Maybe they are over consuming and it’s their own fucking fault? As I recall a family of four used to have
        1 bath
        1 car
        1 job
        1 bedroom for the kids
        1 TV
        1 radio
        1 doctor
        1 dentist
        (and that was considered being well off)

        Now look at you all. Every one has to have their own car, their own entertainment center in their own room, each home has more than one usually three bathrooms, each person has a different specialist doctor for every imaginable malady – it goes on and on.

        Maybe you are simply consuming too much.



        Like I said: Are you going to roll over and declare yourself defeated on the power of an index?
        • Re: How deep is the recession

          Thu, May 1, 2008 - 8:28 AM
          The problem in the 70's was some unemployment and inflation..this is a far cry from the problem today.

          Today the problem is deficit and credit. On a national level, the Bush admin has spent 8 years engaged in disproportionate deficit spending. This year, the GDP was negative as a result. With the war costing billions a month and the dollar sliding down against other currencies, the US economy is deeply upside down, and that's on the national level.

          In the 70's there was no NAFTA. Manufacturing was not considered a burden to corporations who went on make quick profits in the 90's by "outsourcing" it..closing down factories and opening them up in "Free Enterprise Zones" in places like Cambodia...at first this brought the cost of consumer goods down and slowed inflation..but the fact that it put Americans out of work became evident quite quickly. As usual, the blue collar folks got pissed on first..and in the 70's they still had unions to protect them.by the 90's unions were passe. Trickle down economics actually worked back then. If the boss got rich, it passed downward through the economy creating jobs and raises....now if the boss gets rich he cuts jobs and factories, moves them to Belize, and makes himself richer. That's globalization for ya!

          1974 was the last year minimum wage income was proportionally high enough compared to the average cost of housing to allow a person to survive on a minimum wage job alone. People are earning proportionally less than they were in the 70's because wages have stagnated while costs of living have steadily climbed.

          Part of the problem was prosperity itself...at least prosperity for the already wealthy....a sudden rise in land and property values drove up the cost of apartment rents in previously affordable areas, resulting in the working poor being unable keep up with the cost of housing by the early 90's. This was not a problem in the 70's.

          Personal debt was much lower in the 70's. The credit card and FICA system was primitive in those days. Most people used "charge cards" instead which were due in full at the end of the month. By the late 70's credit was being expanded. but it was difficult to get and credit card companies were still subject to usury laws were a cap on intrest was still reasonable. Nowadays they seem to hand out pre-approved credit to even the homeless with a p.o. box..the result is temporary consumer spending, followed by high consumer debt and a loss of consumer confidence as they are forced to buy less by the debt.

          The economy has learned to depend on this inflated spending...at this point if people became reasonable with their money, we would have a serious problem. People really were doing dumb shit...refinancing their house to buy plasma screen tv's and GMC Yukons and so on..now we have to keep doing it to prevent recession!
          • Re: How deep is the recession

            Thu, May 1, 2008 - 2:53 PM
            The Carter years were good years for me: I had my degree and a job that paid $130/week, so I thought I was on Easy Street. The 60s were more difficult: I was still living with my parents, and the only work I could find was chopping cotton for $1/hour, a job usually done by Mexican immigrants. If that's the only work available, that's what you do.

            Lyndon Johnson's much-criticized War on Poverty really did help a lot of people if the decline in the poverty rate from 22% to 12% between 1960 and 1970 is any indication.

            www.census.gov/hhes/www/p...stpov2.html

            The real hourly wage peaked around 1973, so you could say it has all be downhill since then. The median family income did keep increasing until 2000, but that was mainly due to the increasing number of women in the workforce, not to any increase in wages. The percent of working women is now maxed out, so we cannot expect any further improvement from that.

            The economy also expanded due to the growth in private debt and the corresponding decline in savings. This has also run its course: The U.S. now has a negative savings rate, meaning we are spending more than we are making. This is obviously an unsustainable situation.

            Without further wage growth, the economy can only grow as fast as the population, because consumers simply lack the money to buy anything beyond basic necessities. Growth in the latest quarter (an annualized 0.6%) was actually LOWER than the rate of population growth, meaning that we are going backwards. I doubt that a $600 tax rebate will change that.

            Without a healthy consumer market, it doesn't matter much what the wizards of Wall Street do, whether they stick their money in this hedge fund or the other one, it's all going down the drain.
            • Re: How deep is the recession

              Thu, May 1, 2008 - 6:42 PM
              There are two economies in the US right now Forrest. There is the economy that is tied to global opportunities and funding and the economy that is utterly dependent on local employment and money.

              The one that most the work-a-day people belong is the latter and it's not going well for a fair measure of them. However, there are a hell of a lot of work-a-day people who are doing better than before spending more money on luxury items and living vastly better than their parents did. Vastly better than their parents could have imagined.

              Those people often are connected however indirectly to the global economy. Even the guy who mows lawns in my neighborhood is connected to China and the emerging markets because his customers are.

              If on the other hand you are delivering pizzas to people who are not connected to the global market then your option s are pretty much nil.

              There are others who are almost entirely involved in the global market and they are doing very well.

              A lot of it has to do with your own personal ability to see opportunity and to seize upon it. Americans have since the 1960s taught their children that they should be servants employees dogs in another man's castle. Our whole educational system got i itself geared to train people to do things for other people whether it was biology or engineering or nursing or whatever the idea of entrepreneurship and independent thought was swept under the carpet of post modernist philosophy.

              Now Americans are incapable of seeing those opportunities that lay about them like trash in the side of a NJ highway. Aliens see it though. I have two friends who came here almost shirtless and are now multi millionaires and they are because they were willing to seize opportunity, put in the hard work, take the personal risks, and sacrifice to make it come to fruition. American children are standing on the sidelines hoping for that good paying job that will make them instantly well off with no risk no sacrifice and no hardship.

              Those two Albanian brothers on the flip side expected to work hard,suffer much, sacrifice, and accept risk because they came from a land where every one expects those things just to get by. But in the land of opportunity they became multi millionaires and they did it solely because they weren't chicken shit spoiled little brats expecting things to just come to them.

              I had my trade skills of 20 years evaporate under me because my trade got outsourced to history. No one needs conventional machinist toolmakers anymore. All they need is a kid who can program a computer and another to take the dull cutters out and put in sharp ones for the computer driven machinery. Then I got laid low again because of a surplus of engineers. I was hiring Graduate level engineers for $23K in NJ and they were happy for it.

              I think I finally found a thing I can do that will keep me well off for life but, it took some balls guts sacrifice and hard god dammed work.


              I say if you are poor you are so are because you have learned how to be poor and if you want not to be poor you need to re-think your entire world view as well as your perception of yourself.





              • Re: How deep is the recession

                Thu, May 1, 2008 - 9:27 PM
                Thought I'd share this, to lighten the mood (or darken it completely, if you're not a sports fan). I received it from a Canadian friend who adapted the original from an American family member:

                Subject: If we were American - Not far from being Canadian

                The federal government is sending each and every one of us a $600.00 rebate check.

                If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money will go to China.
                If we spend it on gasoline it will go to the Arabs,
                if we purchase a computer it will go to India,
                if we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras, and Guatemala,
                if we purchase a good car it will go to Japan,
                if we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan, and none of it will help the American (Canadian) economy.

                The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on football tickets and beer, since these are the only products still produced in the US.

                Thank you for your help.

                • Re: How deep is the recession

                  Fri, May 2, 2008 - 8:01 AM
                  *****************The federal government is sending each and every one of us**********

                  Us? I thought you were a a Canook? Are you also a US citizen?
                  I have a Cannok friend who calls us here in the states "Yankee Bastards" which I have shortened to Yastards"
                  We are bunch of YASTARDS~!! Watch the fuck out here come the YASTARDS~!!!

                  ************ a $600.00 rebate check.************

                  Not me. There is an income threshold cut off.

                  ***********If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money will go to China.**********

                  It's a dirty job but some one's got to do it.

                  ********If we spend it on gasoline it will go to the Arabs,**************
                  And the Canadians and ~ ~ ~ oh hell here is the list:
                  WHERE WE GET OIL (2005)
                  18% from Canada
                  12% Saudi Arabia.
                  15% West Africa in general (Nigeria, Gabon, Angola, etc.)
                  15% Mexico
                  12% Nigeria and the United Arab Emirates.
                  10%Venezuela
                  5% Iraq
                  3% Algeria
                  3% Columbia
                  3% Equador
                  2% Kuwait
                  2% United Kingdom
                  1% Norway
                  1% Equatorial Guinea
                  source: www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/inter...serves.html
                  tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/...imus1a.htm
                  www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/pe...udeoil.html
                  www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_ga...df/appb.pdf
                  ftp.consrv.ca.gov/pub/oil/a...2stats.pdf

                  The US is spending One BILLION a day on foreign oil. That is a lot of money and it adds up over time.


                  *******if we purchase a computer it will go to India,***********

                  And Taiwan and Malaysia and China.

                  ************if we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras, and Guatemala,**********

                  And Florida and the People's Soviet Socialist Republic of California

                  **********if we purchase a good car it will go to Japan,***********

                  No, it'll go to Germany and Tennessee
                  If you purchase a merely mediocre car it'll go to Japan.


                  ***********if we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan, and none of it will help the American (Canadian) economy.*******

                  More like China & India. Taiwan is really high tech. Has been for decades.

                  ************The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on football tickets and beer, since these are the only products still produced in the US.******************

                  Did you read my article on Jobs?
                  Here: tinyurl.com/yseflg
              • Re: How deep is the recession

                Thu, May 1, 2008 - 9:27 PM
                >>there are a hell of a lot of work-a-day people who are doing better than before spending more money on luxury items and living vastly better than their parents did

                As I have already pointed out, they are being paid less than their parents were, and any high living they may enjoy is probably paid for with borrowed money.

                According to the World Bank, per capita income in the U.S. in 2006 was $44,970. In China, it was $2,010, in India $820. Under the free-market theories promoted by the Republican Party, American workers should compete freely with workers in other countries. This is an important contributing factor to the decline in wages in this country.

                At the same time, Republicans insist that their theories will lead to solid economic progress and a better life for everyone. This has not worked out in practice. The golden future the Republicans promise us keeps receding further and further into the future, a wonderful utopia that our grandchildren may someday achieve when the Chinese and Indians catch up with us economically.

                Meanwhile, a large portion of the world is dependent on the U.S. consumer market. With only 5% of the world's population, we consume a hugely disproportionate share of its resources. Is that a bad thing? I don't know, but it is certainly an unsustainable thing. You say we should consume less. The liberals say we should consume less. At the same time, you say you expect a quick economic recovery. How is that possible if everyone is consuming less? And how is the better society that the liberals promise us possible if everyone is consuming less?

                Suppose that you are a worker in China or India. You go to hear a speech by the American ambassador, who says, "We Americans have been greedy pigs for far too long. In the future, we are determined to purchase only half the products that your country has been exporting to us." Would this be good news for you, the foreign worker? It means you face a serious risk of being laid off. Or, if you manage to keep your job, your pay may be cut: Because of rising employment, a lot of people are waiting in line to take your work.

                Meanwhile, the Americans are smugly saying to each other, "What wise and frugal people we are! We have made huge voluntary cuts in our consumption, so now there will be that much more for everyone else!" But no one else is enjoying this abundance, because we have just thrown most of the world into recession, and our own country as well, since we also depend on the consumer, and on exports to consumers in other countries.

                Being frugal and spending less may be necessary in the long run, but in the short run it means a recession. Meanwhile, the money you have put aside and invested brings you less return, because the consumer market is shrinking, so increasing production through investment doesn't make much sense, and the value of investments declines. Why should I invest more, when the markets are going down?

                I know perfectly well the value of retraining: I have four college degrees, and have worked a number of different professions in my career. When I was younger, I got sucked into the computer market because it was new, and people with computer skills were rare, and I could make a lot more money with that than in my chosen profession of journalism. Things like this happen a lot. Already, computer skills are no longer coveted, and people in India are doing much of the work, so this is no longer such a lucrative field. Already, at age 55, I am probably too old to retrain for an entirely new profession in genetics or nanotechnology or whatever the next big thing is (despite my abundance of education, I can hardly even guess what that would be), so if I had not already socked away a good bit of money, I would be in big trouble.

                Capiitalism is a wonderful economic system, but it does have certain weaknesses. One of them is, it treats human beings as if they were just another commodity, subject to the laws of supply and demand. But humans are not like other commodities, in that the supply of them does not increase or decrease with the demand. Also, if you insist that they should suffer poverty and misery because of the laws of supply and demand, they tend to rebel and make up their own laws. To put this in economic terms, the supply of humans is inelastic, though the demand may vary a great deal with economic circumstances, and this can lead to severe problems.

                If, for example, a surplus of labor leads to lower wages and unemployment, this also reduces consumer demand, because workers are also consumers, and this means rising inventories, falling production and therefore further unemployment, a deadly cycle which can cause a ruinous depression if it is not corrected.

                It is the role of government to prevent such a disaster through prudent tax and spending policies and satisfy the needs of the population without a rebellion. That is what we need to do now, to correct the economic dislocations before it is too late, to put the economy, which has been so mismanaged by the present administration, back on the right track. We do not have much time.
                • Re: How deep is the recession

                  Sat, May 3, 2008 - 12:02 PM
                  ********* I have four college degrees,***********

                  HA HA, I only have three. And none have anything to do with each other.


                  ************** Already, computer skills are no longer coveted, and people in India are doing much of the work,*******