A relatively new friend asked me a question yesterday that felt really hurtful. I KNOW that it wasn't intended to be so, and was just a result of now knowing how to broach the subject, but I'm still upset by it this morning, so I wanted to ask: is this how most people perceive poly relationships?
What she said was: "How long have you been living the life style you have in which your husband lets you have "girl friends". <snip> How do you keep from getting to close to these women?"
Gah!!! Yeah, I'm married, and my husband is monogamous, so I suppose that it could appear that he "lets" me have a girl on the side. But in the 15ish years that we have agreed that my dating wouldn't harm "Us" (we've been together for 20, and he's always known I was bi...it just didn't occur to me that continuing to see women after our marriage was a possibility at first), I've had exactly three girlfriends, *all* of them serious, and all of them long term. (Okay, one was only 6 months, but the others were 11/2 and 3 years, respectively, and all three women are still major...I mean weekly, at least...parts of my life, as very close friends.)
I guess the part that hurt was the assumption that I don't get close to the women that I date. Like they're playthings, or some such. Like, because I'm poly, I'm incapable of commitment, or love, or intimacy. Do you guys get this same type of response? Am I ignorant to think that people accept me and my girlfriend (when I have one) as a legitimate couple, and at the same time remember that my husband and I are one, as well? That he's not a cuckold, or a pervert, simply because he "allows" this? Or worse, that he doesn't know at all!? Or is everyone thinking what this one person, in all innocence, said to me yesterday? Because if that's the case, it SUCKS.
Sorry for the rant, guys, but I'm just distressed. I'm so TIRED of having to explain and defend my life. I'm so tired of people having the *entirely* wrong set of assumptions about who I am, or how I live my life. Even people that I really thought that I knew have dropped the word "swinger" in, to describe my relationships to others (in front of me!). And no insult intended to people in that lifestyle, but I'm SO not a "swinger", and I thought that showed in the way that I try to make all of my people a "family", and the way that we Iive openly and honestly. (Please, anyone who IDs with that term, don't be insulted...I don't mean it badly. It's just that this term is often equated with a sex or play only dynamic, which is antithetical to what I am doing in my life. I realize that not everyone uses that term in the same way.)
Anyhow, I don't know what advice I hope to glean from this post. I just feel gutted and sad, like everything that I try to be, every way that I try to represent love in my tiny piece of the world, isn't beeing seen or heard, and it's lame. I guess I'm looking for hope.
Thanks, guys.
What she said was: "How long have you been living the life style you have in which your husband lets you have "girl friends". <snip> How do you keep from getting to close to these women?"
Gah!!! Yeah, I'm married, and my husband is monogamous, so I suppose that it could appear that he "lets" me have a girl on the side. But in the 15ish years that we have agreed that my dating wouldn't harm "Us" (we've been together for 20, and he's always known I was bi...it just didn't occur to me that continuing to see women after our marriage was a possibility at first), I've had exactly three girlfriends, *all* of them serious, and all of them long term. (Okay, one was only 6 months, but the others were 11/2 and 3 years, respectively, and all three women are still major...I mean weekly, at least...parts of my life, as very close friends.)
I guess the part that hurt was the assumption that I don't get close to the women that I date. Like they're playthings, or some such. Like, because I'm poly, I'm incapable of commitment, or love, or intimacy. Do you guys get this same type of response? Am I ignorant to think that people accept me and my girlfriend (when I have one) as a legitimate couple, and at the same time remember that my husband and I are one, as well? That he's not a cuckold, or a pervert, simply because he "allows" this? Or worse, that he doesn't know at all!? Or is everyone thinking what this one person, in all innocence, said to me yesterday? Because if that's the case, it SUCKS.
Sorry for the rant, guys, but I'm just distressed. I'm so TIRED of having to explain and defend my life. I'm so tired of people having the *entirely* wrong set of assumptions about who I am, or how I live my life. Even people that I really thought that I knew have dropped the word "swinger" in, to describe my relationships to others (in front of me!). And no insult intended to people in that lifestyle, but I'm SO not a "swinger", and I thought that showed in the way that I try to make all of my people a "family", and the way that we Iive openly and honestly. (Please, anyone who IDs with that term, don't be insulted...I don't mean it badly. It's just that this term is often equated with a sex or play only dynamic, which is antithetical to what I am doing in my life. I realize that not everyone uses that term in the same way.)
Anyhow, I don't know what advice I hope to glean from this post. I just feel gutted and sad, like everything that I try to be, every way that I try to represent love in my tiny piece of the world, isn't beeing seen or heard, and it's lame. I guess I'm looking for hope.
Thanks, guys.
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Re: Perceptions
Sat, November 10, 2007 - 8:30 AMFor Years and Years we have had to answer those very same inquiries... in the very early years it would take me by surprise when people had their misconceptions, or their preconceived notions...
then I realized several things... first , that people "fear what they dont know" and second they most usually truly have a desire to understand.
we dont owe anyone an explanation of what we do, or why, or even how... and we really only have to be "real" with ourselves, and hopefully our partners too... any explanations after that are for the benefit of the uninformed... and only if we choose to "enlighten" them...
I have found also, that if I am having strong emotion around a question asked from a well meaning, albeit "nosey" person it is most usually because *I* Have something I need to take a deeper look at inside myself as to why their "uninformed" question sets me off..
the one that used to get a real rise out of me was the interminable "are you bi" Gawd! how I destest that question.... as if being BI is a desiease, or worse yet I can't make up my mind if I want to be "sexual" with a Boy OR a girl...
it was THAT very thing I discovered WAS the issue with me.... and why in fact it did set me off... Truth was,,, I Couldnt decide if I wanted to be with a boy or a girl... I wanted BOTH, and wanted to be accepted for that without having to explain myself to everyone that was curious about MY CHOICES!
after several years of self reflection on this.. I finally learned and made the conscience decision that if I allowed people to decide for me what I am or Who I am or how I wish to Live my own life then I was giving them MY power, allowing them to infuse THEIR issues into MY life,
I suppose I felt embarrassed on some level, for a long time, that I "couldnt make up my mind" or that I was "torn between my lovers genders"
and finally, I realized I was disrespecting and Dishonoring THEM (my lovers) as well as myself, by not proudly declaring my feelings for them...
I recall being ignorant of the lifestyle of my gay men friends.. I didnt have a clue about their relationships, and quite frankly their sex lives... so, I asked... I am soooo grateful to my friends that put up with me while I became less ignorant and more informed....
we learn by what we "experience" and if we are not having "the experience" then we have a disavantage, and need the people that are having the experience to inform and enlighten the otherwise ignorant people......
once the people have learned WE are NOT a threat to them, their relationships, or even ourselves then hopefully they can help to inform and enlighten those that still havent gotten the word that there are people that live differently from the way they do.....
so, in all this early morning rambling.. I hope you can find even a speck of... AH HA!! and try not to take offense.. but instead think of it as a chance to enlighten those that are still in the dark about living and loving differently.....
think of it as a service to our fellow humankind.... and if you are ike I was for soooo many years, and ya don't feel it's any of their damn business how you conduct your own affairs.. then tell them that too... cuz in reality, ya dont owe anyone an explanation of how you choose to love....
do what works for you... but do it with pride of convictions, and try not to begrudge those that havent yet figured out... there are many people that can, and do, Live and Love successfully with more than one partner... and more than one gender....
just MY opinions, as I have dealt with the same things.. and how I came to terms with what I felt about All the questions..... anger is such a waste of our energy..... put that "energy into your living and loving, and nevermind the ignorance of those that just donlt know, yet!
Blessings....
Bare
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Re: Perceptions
Sat, November 10, 2007 - 9:54 AMYou are very wise, Bare.
I talked long and hard with my best friend about this just now, and I suppose that I was just ranting about the need to *explain* all of the time. If I analyze myself, I can see that I am defensive about my poly-ness, because I fear that it will place a bad light on my HUSBAND, who is on a total pedestal for me. I once asked him if he wanted to not drive my car to work, because it had Pride stuff on it, and I didn't want people to think that he was queer (I'm FINE with people knowing that I am...go figure).
You're right...I usually *do* try to be an ambassador of sorts. I try to show that all poly poeple don't look like X, or all bi people aren't flakes who can't commit, or whatever. I try to live out loud and be an example. It's just hard sometimes when I think that I'm being such a little light that shines, and I'm really a dim bulb <lol>.
Anyhow, thank you for the time that you took to reply (and to those who PMd me). I still look forward to hearing any monogamous folks ideas on what I said, so please share? Thanks.
I feel a lot better now : ). And, of course, I'll never stop holding my freak flag high, with my wedding ring prominently displayed on the hand I'm waving it with, too <g>.
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Re: Perceptions
Sat, November 10, 2007 - 2:48 PMGrrr...,
It does hurt when friends make false assumptions about relationships that they don't understand. If its a friend making the misstatements I do try to explain where I'm coming from and in most cases they do seem to understand.
In your case I think it would help your friend to know that your husband doesn't "let" you have girlfriends but (I don't know you that well so I am assuming a bit here) that you and your husband have discussed what you each want and have come to a relationship style that works quite nicely for both of you. Oddly enough, when I actually met you and your husband several years ago I remember being by how obviously happy you two seemed and I remember your husband actually tellinng me how happily married he is/was.
I also think that a real friend would come to understand that your relationships with your gfs are not only physically based or for playtime only (not that there is anything wrong with that for people who like that sort of thing). I'm guessing anyone who sees you with either of your partners would come away knowing that you both take pride in your relationships and are willing to invest yourself in them fully. IMO, friends are happy for their friends who are finding happiness on whatever path they choose.
I know you wrote looking for hope and I hope you still have that. All I can offer is support from a relative stranger who on first impression was struck by your honesty and openness and let you know that I respect and understand where you are coming from. I wish you continued happiness on your chosen path. -
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Re: Perceptions
Sat, November 10, 2007 - 10:23 PMThank you, Rich. I do appreciate that : ). And yes he and I are *both* still happy today <g>. I think that I just keep hoping for something ridiculous...that people will not "assume" things. Of course they're going to, and I HOPE that by my explaining my truth, that they well leave with a better understanding, but I need to learn not to let that outcome affect me. I'm not changing. I'm happy being me, and happy being out...I love my husband, and I love all of the woman who have been my girlfriends...I just haven't been faced with those ideas aloud in a while. I guess I was taken aback. But I'm not upset with my new friend, and I hope that what I said to her made things more clear. I'm just sometimes tired of having to justify my life, when it seems perfectly normal and harmless to me : ).
Anyhow, I appreciate the support, guys. Thanks again.
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Re: Perceptions
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 9:43 AM>>Sorry for the rant, guys, but I'm just distressed. I'm so TIRED of having to explain and defend my life. I'm so tired of people having the *entirely* wrong set of assumptions about who I am, or how I live my life.<<
See, here's the thing.
Anyone of any alternative origin asks one thing of the world at large. One thing in three parts. Understanding, Patience, and Tolerance. Sometimes we forget that in return, we too have to be understanding, patient, and tolerant. The average joe is just NOT going to understand your proclivies, no matter how well or how many times you explain it. Think of the strangest fetish, or alternative lifestyle you can. The strangest to you.
Now, say someone from that lifestyle is attempting to explain why it's a integral part of them. How much understanding could you really have? It may be completely disgusting to you, you may just not get it. That's where patience and tolerance comes in. You said that your friend was obviously trying not to upset you. Well then, why are you upset? It's not your right to expect to never be misunderstood. Human empathy has limits. Human capacity to *try* to understand, and wether or not successful to *accept* an alternate perspective on the world is arguably limitless.
If someone misunderstands, calls you a "swinger" for example, they're exercising they're tolerance if they're not referring to it derrogatorily. It's your right, your privelege and some would say for the good of your kin your *responsibility* to patiently say;
"No, a swinger is someone in a relationship who explores sex with others recreationally. I am a married woman who is bisexual, and carries on relationships that are no less valid than my relationship with my husband with women. This is an accepted part of my lifestyle. It's important you understand the difference."
There's a certain amount of responsibility in being enlightened or awakened in any form, spiritually, sexually, et al. You are one of the lucky ones, who is able to function with an expectation not to be descriminated against, harmed for, and BONUS! Your partner is understanding enough to allow you to live that way! Count your blessings, be patient with those around you, understand that each correction you're forced to make is paving the way for someone else down the road, who may never have to justify who they are because you've done it for them.
Acceptance of these things is still very young comparitively. Being young, it's not surprising for it to be clumsy, and require maintenance, but the rewards are great for you and everyone around you. You get to be the teacher.
Faced with that perspective, I would be proud. You should be to! :) -
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Re: Perceptions
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 11:58 AMAngel, what a great post, thank you for your eloquence......
Bare
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Re: Perceptions
Mon, November 12, 2007 - 12:29 PMI see much validity in what you have said, Angel, thank you. And I do, as I stated earlier, try to be a good ambassador for bi/poly/married women, since there ARE a lot of assumptions and boxes and categorizations. Sometimes I'm imperfect, though, and just get tired of the explanation process. I was just coming here to vent because I figured that I'd get some feedback from people who both did and did not agree with assumptions such as the ones I shared.
You asked:
"You said that your friend was obviously trying not to upset you. Well then, why are you upset?"
It was a knee-jerk reaction. I guess you have to know me a bit, but I'm a very invested, romantic person. I don't date casually, and haven't since before I was with my husband, so to have someone imply that I had no emotional attachment to any of the women that I have loved (and still love) poked me in a soft place. The intention of the person delivering a statement is always something that I try to remain mindful of, but that doesn't keep *me* from having imperfect reactions. I'm an imperfect being : ).
At any rate, thanks for taking the time to offer your input.
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Re: Perceptions
Sun, December 2, 2007 - 5:11 PMI am seeing a woman that is trying hard to not get too close to me since I am married and she sees no future in our relationship. Being in between relationships right now she is okay exploring, just not too deeply that she will get hurt by falling in love and wanting me exclusively. She fully understands I am committed to my wife and "the life style", yet she has to hold herself back, which manifests as restrictions to our relationship. Not too much insight into my life. Not too many reminders of my marital status. etc... In this way she can comprehend the situation, live with it, and take value from it. You could say she is trying to fool herself and thinks like your new friend only coming from a different angle, as one of my girlfriends. We continue to talk about this, which she finds is unique in her relationship experience, just as dating a married man. How can we talk about living in ways she has a hard time believing in emotionally? That some people can really love many? That I can care for her and love my wife. Intellectually she understands I am polyamorous. But it is her emotional reaction that doesn't support this concept and wants to keep it superficial. When she finds the man of her dreams, one that will marry her and her alone, she cannot conceive of continuing a relationship with me.
I myself had the same reaction when 7 years into an "open" relationship my wife became involved with another man for the first time. My own emotional reaction was totally different than what I had agreed to, and what I myself felt committed to intellectually. Some of us do not have many role models that help us understand the concepts of loving many. Some of us have many role models of relationships ending because of "cheating" spouses, or even the desire to love another before the physical cheating has started. I myself fall into that category in the past, and what I discovered was that when presented with the opportunity to allow my wife to experience love, it triggered fear in me. This fear was my past clouding my ability to believe she could love him and still want to be married to me, which is important to me. That I might lose what is important to me. That I must hoard her love to make sure I don't lose it.
Maybe your new friend has her own experiences or models that have made it hard to believe that loving many has positive outcomes. To compensate for this experience she translates your activities into superficial relationships, to be held at a distance. I tried in the beginning of my wife's relationship to ask for rules that held him at a distance to her. Luckily she challenged this, and luckily we have a strong enough relationship to withstand all the emotion that came up in the process. My emotions and hers. She asked me why, if I knew she wanted an intimate relationship with him, I was asking for rules that made that hard for her? I couldn't explain it intellectually, just that my emotional self need that to stay healthy. It was a need based on fear that I allowed myself to foster. Eventually when she told me directly that she wanted this man in her life forever it dawned on me. The emotional shock of hearing her say this finally allowed me to question my fear, it was the only way I could stay married to her, forever. It wasn't until I saw the reasons behind my wanting her to maintain a superficial relationship, that I really became polyamorous. It wasn't until then I understood how she could love him and still want to be married to me. The rules are gone and we talk about our emotions, good and bad. Our relationship is stronger than ever. The time we have together sharing our emotions is some of the best times of my life. I have connected to her on a deeper level than anyone ever before.
It is this experience I bring to my friend, a relationship that she sought out but still has trouble accepting emotionally. That I share when asked. I do not try and force it on her or make her feel I expect her to understand just because I say it is so. She will find her own way to deal with it, or not, it is her choice. I do not feel hurtful that she has emotions to the contrary. I have been there. I only hope that someday my experience and our experiences will enrich her life as it has my own. That my loving her and my wife will open her eyes to the possibilities. The rest is up to her and she deserves to be allowed her own process around it.
To conclude this very verbose answer, maybe your new friend just doesn't have the context to understand loving many. Whether it is a lack of experience, or experience to the contrary. It isn't necessarily her fault. It is just her. I have been there and now I am not, I wasn't wrong before, I just was different. Maybe someday she will see things differently. Maybe someday she will see your modeling as part of a process she took to understand that love does not have to be hoarded and just as we love all our children, all of our parents, and all of our friends we can love many, emotionally or physically, and we can feel loved by many, accept their love, be enriched by it, and it is okay.