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Does anyone have any words of wisdom about obtaining a pyrotechnics permit, specifically for New Hampshire?
I have been struggling to make a gig happen that is a little over a week from today because of absurd permitting issues. Now, this is probably specific to the state, but New Hampshire is requiring the same paperwork for any and all fire permits, which means that any fire display in front of a proximate audience from candle-light to giant flaming monster truck robot requires the same paperwork. This is fine, but said paperwork also requires a processing fee that ranges from $200 - $400.
At least $200 to allow one person to spin staff and poi? That is silly and hugely prohibitive of the fire spinning arts in general. Does anyone else have a similar experience that might shed some light on this dilemma? I'm interested to see if I have been going about this wrong, or if people just suck it up and eat the cost, or if they charge more because of it, or if they just ignore it entirely and perform without permits.
I have been struggling to make a gig happen that is a little over a week from today because of absurd permitting issues. Now, this is probably specific to the state, but New Hampshire is requiring the same paperwork for any and all fire permits, which means that any fire display in front of a proximate audience from candle-light to giant flaming monster truck robot requires the same paperwork. This is fine, but said paperwork also requires a processing fee that ranges from $200 - $400.
At least $200 to allow one person to spin staff and poi? That is silly and hugely prohibitive of the fire spinning arts in general. Does anyone else have a similar experience that might shed some light on this dilemma? I'm interested to see if I have been going about this wrong, or if people just suck it up and eat the cost, or if they charge more because of it, or if they just ignore it entirely and perform without permits.
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 1:12 PMThese prices are pretty typical in the LA basin. All OC permits start at $200. LA city charges $64/hr with a 4 hour minimum, LA county just jacked up to $216/hr with no minimum. Yeah, you're in the butter zone. Yes, it's prohibitive. Yes, it's why so many fire performances are run underground. -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 2:31 PMThe $64/hr sounds like it is fairly standardized---I spoke with Ohio's FD today and was quoted that price for hiring a 'licensed flame effect exhibotor' with the same 4 hour minimum. As a fire performer, YOU can be licensed but I only know that is true on a state level. I just inquired if there was a national license for this as it would be silly to get licensed in every state we *could* end up performing in but we may have to. If anyone has more info on that (national license for flame effect exhibotor) I'd be interested to hear about it. Also, any more even anecdotal info for Ricky would be appreciated :) We are working together and all that...oh, and he's a cool guy. -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Sat, October 17, 2009 - 2:48 AMNope, no National license. If there were, the state variances would clear up in a second.
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:39 AMSo are you looking for permits for pyrotechnics or general open flame permit? I know in Philly there are different documents and approvals needed if there are any pressurized containers to an open flame source that needs to be certified before the fire marshal wants to look at it. Combustibles and fireworks are probably under another category as well.
We are just beginning this process but have been getting open flame/performance permits for a couple of years now. We write up specs for all the info he needs in advance (venue, stage, dump, number of performers/safeties, copies of insurance, tools, etc) and the final granting of the the permit is after his inspection the day of.
I think a large part of the fire marshal giving us permits is because we have spent years establishing an open relationship with all sorts of demonstrations and information, I'm not sure what sort of hoops you have jumped through with them so far, but clearly presenting that we want to work together to keep the art open and safe for everyone (vs sitting underground) as encouraged him to be willing to work with us.
Not sure if you are dealing with the state bureaucracy or a local town/country, but the more local will probably be the best root to start with.
keep us posted and good luck! -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 12:21 PMAt least in this specific scenario (New Hampshire), the paperwork is the same no matter what flame effect (pyrotechnics or open flame) you are using, as long as it is in front of a proximate audience. So any fire show we intend to put on (one solo performer spinning poi or 30 firebreathers on pogosticks, whatever the scale) requires going through the same approval process.
It is of course interesting to hear what Philly requires, because I am part of a group that intends to offer our fire performances across the country but it seems to do that we will be up to our necks in different fire permitting for each individual state. Establishing a good relationship with one's local state is one thing but multiplying that by 50 seems daunting.
My initial feeling is that this is definitely something that can't be done in any small amount of time and that only the larger, more recurring venues are going to be able to afford the permitting cost. That is, no one is going to want to pay a fair amount for one performer for one night when there is a $300 or so permitting cost tacked on, but they might be more amenable to that when they are getting several performers a few nights a week for a whole month. -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 12:36 PMRicky, I think you're missing the point. fire breathers and poi spinners are both "open flame" artists.
Here in California, the moment your primary fuel moves from a liquid (white gas, alcohol, kero, lamp, etc) to a powder flash powder, gunpowder, etc) you're required to have a "pyrotechnicians license" which comes in many flavors, is VERY expensive, and requires a complicated mentoring process.
We managed to slip out from under that process and are only required to pay one fire marshall, for four hours, to watch our show and verify safety. If the show gets REALLY big, they may add another marshal or two (LA decom usually has many, some for crowd control, some for the electrical devices, others for us). But the moment someone wants to use a starting pistol with blanks, we'd also require a Pyro III on top of the fire marshal, plus anything he requires for safety. Flash pots require a pyro II, and mortars require a pyro i.
So, yes, NH sounds pretty similar to other areas. But be careful about how you bandy about your terms. Also, please be sure which codes you're looking at. Only very rarely does a state take over the regulation of something like this. You are more likely running into city codes. The next town over might have a different system, or maybe the next county will. -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 10:59 AMYes, clearly poi spinners, fire breathers, fire eaters, staff spinners etc. are all "open fame" artists. My first comment was really just to illustrate the fact that it's the same paperwork no matter what the scale of the performance is (even one person holding a candle in front of an audience, technically) and I lament the difficulty at finagling all of this work and money just to bring in one guy with a set of poi. That is, however, me speaking as a jaded fire artist who no longer sees the danger inherent in the art, at least on the scale and in the venues that I am used to so I will yield to that fact.
However, my understanding is that the state ordinances outrank the local city codes, no matter what they are. I began my exploration of the NH legal system regarding fire performance by calling the town fire department, only to have them defer to the state officials. Next, I spoke at length to the man in charge of flame effects and pyrotechnics permitting at the Department of Fire Safety in NH and came out of it with the facts that I have listed in my previous posts. So at least for NH, that is just how it is.
I do want to say that I am glad to hear about how things like this work in, for example, Pennsylvania and California. That was really my intent in starting this topic because I'm sure it will benefit us all to get a better understanding of the legal procedures in different states in the event that any of us book a performance outside of our local comfort zone. -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 12:58 PMHey, if you can find those state ordinances online, I'd love to add them (and a link to you) to the NAFAA website....
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 10:55 AMIn Florida we have often found that it works better to ask for forgiveness than permission. I personally don't work that way, but many many many of the performers down there do. -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 6:01 AMIs this a public event, or a private one? If it is private and on private property, my understanding is that in NH you can burn yard trash, tiki torches and what ever in your back yard. If that is true, than you buring wicks or a tiki torch isn't all that different. The Salem MA fire marshall basically told us we couldn't get a permit, because she didn't have one to offer us. That as long as we were on private property and not burning trash or yard waste (which you can't do here), than we were fine. -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 7:15 AMThis is something I have often heard and is usually how many venues deal with permitting. More feedback from folk would be appreciated as it seems Ricky's direct contact with NH fire personnel is contradictory but perhaps he was being misinformed and/or this is a specific case. Anyone else have personal examples like Chad? -
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Re: Fire Permit woes
Thu, November 19, 2009 - 10:34 AMafter years of efforts in working with the local fire department, they call us to write permits for them. previously, performance permits didn't exist
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