It's still mathematically impossible

topic posted Sun, November 8, 2009 - 8:50 PM by  Yul
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Yes! It's still mathematically impossible to achieve a small government and maintain a giant military at the same time. As I often say, the military is a part of the government, and therefore the military needs to be reduced along with all other government programs in order for small government to happen. In today's modern dystopia, there is a frequent disregard for that reality, and so many people believe in the mathematically impossible. But when the money runs out, they might change their minds. (Or will they?)
posted by:
Yul
offline Yul
Michigan
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  • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

    Mon, November 9, 2009 - 5:00 AM
    *People* don't want a giant military, the government does. War is the health of the state.
    • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

      Mon, November 9, 2009 - 12:14 PM
      >>>>>>>>>> *People* don't want a giant military, the government does. War is the health of the state.

      Well said.
      • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

        Mon, November 9, 2009 - 11:22 PM
        I disagree. There are far too many millions, hundreds of millions, that completely buy into the propaganda. Even though what they are supporting directly affects and hurts them and their children's lives they will constantly defend it. I find it completely bizarre but then I seem to always find myself in a political minority position a lot...

        And how much did Obama increase the military budget for 2010? NOT including the costs of Iraq, Afghanistan, bombing Pakistan, and all those black bag operations of course. Those are, of COURSE, extra costs that somehow aren't related to the military budget. Goddam Orwell to hell. If it wasn't for him none of this would have happened, right? Alice in fucking wonderland.
        • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

          Tue, November 10, 2009 - 7:14 AM
          thats a fact--millions are just sleep walking--orwells in heaven.,just laughing his head off.,
          • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

            Tue, November 10, 2009 - 1:42 PM
            Nope, Orwell is probably shaking his head and thinking "Damn, I was a prophet and didn't know it." Unless he was a sick motherfucker like Cheney, I doubt he is laughing at any of this. I know I'm not. My sense of humor is becoming a bit frayed at the edges...
            • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

              Tue, November 10, 2009 - 3:05 PM
              yeah.,mine too.,its getting harder to smile even.,
              cheneys in a class by himself--when god made pompous assholes--he worked overtime on that one--let alone his cronies--rumsfeld--iiiyyii
              then theres whats up doc.,in the whitehouse now--fucking dumber by the day--mass suicide--while the sheep are watching the news--eating themselves to death--
              2/3 of whats coming out of highschool are too overwheight to join the army--what a life--
        • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

          Sat, November 14, 2009 - 8:34 PM
          << There are far too many millions, hundreds of millions, that completely buy into the propaganda. Even though what they are supporting directly affects and hurts them and their children's lives they will constantly defend it. >>

          Consequences for banding together to NOT defend it are-

          1) You're ignored by the authorities, who could stop all the war and empire if they REALLY needed to.
          2) Your movement is watched, infiltrated, disrupted and ultimately annihilated by authorities.

          To say that people are sheeplike for knowing this strikes me as naive.
          • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

            Sun, November 15, 2009 - 8:23 AM
            your saying people know they act like sheep--know thier acting like sheep--and condone it--Shit++
            that could explain the resistance to the peace movement--im an activist and its a royal pain in the ass when

            they act deaf-dumb and blind.,really sets my nerves on edge--now it seems i will have to adjust my thinking a bit--
            • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

              Thu, November 19, 2009 - 12:16 PM
              << your saying people know they act like sheep--know thier acting like sheep--and condone it--Shit++ >>

              Indeed. Things are both a little better and MUCH worse than you think.

              << that could explain the resistance to the peace movement--im an activist and its a royal pain in the ass when

              they act deaf-dumb and blind >>

              You got it! I don't know you and don't wanna pull the geezer card, but I was going the mile for the peace movement in an extremely hostile environment back when it was Dutch vs. Gorby. Even THEN, that was the case, I fear, at least among the people who weren't convinced you were getting paid off in gold roubles.

              << really sets my nerves on edge--now it seems i will have to adjust my thinking a bit-- >>

              You can maybe start by not letting it bother you and investing as little of yourself and your own ego in the outcome as possible. I've seen too many good comrades go bad on that point - once the Thing They Want doesn't happen, they often turn sour. Some of 'em even go over to the Fuckwads- witness Horowitz, Collier, James Meredith, etc.
              • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

                Thu, November 19, 2009 - 4:06 PM
                Rock.,aye.,i agree not to take it personally.,thanks for your thoughtfull reply
                • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

                  Thu, November 19, 2009 - 4:17 PM
                  Hard to not take it all personally because, if it directly or indirectly affects my person, it IS personal! But I understood the sentiment.

                  And yes, I know people who were quite active with me against the 'nam war, against the Reagan inquistion, and have been fighting against these conservative corporate fuckwads for the last thirty years and losing. Now we're old and most of the kids that should be up in arms against all this crap are twittering on their text-message cell phones and joing the fucking army because there aren't any jobs.

                  Who is to replace us getting old types? Not even my mid-20 year old kids are any kind of active except maybe the younger daughter but she's buried in graduating from UCDavis in June with her Dr. vet degree. She was the most politically aware of the three.

                  Not that protest and activism is working anyway!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: It's still mathematically impossible

                    Thu, November 19, 2009 - 8:34 PM
                    this government does not listen to the will of the people--activism is discouraging.,especially for the activist--very depressing .,my own sons in their 20s could care less--and ive been more depressed at times than i should have been.,aye.,its very tough.,
                    im learning to back of.,quit feeding myself bad energy--and activating more on local issues--which might make a diffrence
  • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

    Tue, November 10, 2009 - 3:33 PM
    I beleive in universal conscription personally,

    The idea that all citizens should be armed, trained in the use of arms, and have local storehouses for arms

    A military cannot turn on it's citizens of the citizens are the military.

    Isreal has demonstrated women are just as good in combat as men, outside of certain health issues and religious or consceintious objections where one does alternative work to the good of society all citizens should be the military.

    There should be small units of career soldiers for specialized purposes only, but not large standing armies of career soldiers which poses a danger to the citizenry.

    Countries where all citizens are the military, where there is universal conscription, seem to be the most hesitant to start wars through the democratic process, seem to have the lowest support for going to war. It's kind of like why the approval ratings for the war in Iraq and Vietnam were equally unpopular with young adults... however the war with the draft where the young adults might actually find themselves there had a generation much more motivated to protest that war however they could. The other generation which had no fear of having to go to war just took pot shots at the leaders no rougher or more effective than John Stewart.

    Let all citizens face an equal chance to war.

    Let it not just be an avenue to escape poverty for rednecks and inner city people to be the first generation in college getting their legs blown off. let it instead be a lottery for all citizens in fighting age to go to war in whatever numbers are needed... rich or poor. You'll see how fast people become pacifists once they are no longer in the bleachers and cheering other people's sons from their easy chair.

    Then we would be totally assured of two things:

    1. We will only fight a foreign enemy in response to a clear and direct threat, a war of self defense and nothing more. It would be the end of military adventurism

    2. We will never have a military that will turn on it's own citizens, police it's citizens, nor at the command of any political elites would the military willingly participate in having their own basic human rights or rights as free citizens taken away.

    I beleive that like with the Romans, small localized military units of citizens can be activated for non-military needs at a moment's notice for socialistic ventures such as building infrastructures, schools, hydroelectric plants, dealing with natural disasters, etc. in peace time... and especially to offset any problems that may exist with not having full employment. Anyone activated should get a living wage, and if in combat should get the kind of GI benefits WWII veterens got, not the crap benefits current troops get.
  • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

    Thu, November 12, 2009 - 7:12 AM
    If the standing career military becomes huge

    And the civilian government becomes small and ineffective.

    It is a very small step then for the military to take control, and declare a government too small, corrupt, and unable to deal with present day problems in real time. It becomes easier for them to make that argument in times of crisis. In the third world, military will sometimes take over for the government claiming it a temporary measure, even keep the legislatures in place as empty suits to make it still look like democracy. But then remain in control after the crisis is gone.

    Government didn't get smaller though during the republican watch, it actually grew very large, but much of it was in the military, homeland security, electronic surveillance. These other entities were then grafted onto the military though the DHS, consolidated. Civilian government did get smaller.

    There is really a philosophical argument among the super rich, and the argument is this.

    Where is the sweet spot, for driving down the cost of and raising the level of fear and productivity of American labor?

    If you drive it so far down people become radicalized, motivated to form unions, vote in third parties, engage in Molly McGuire like acts of class warfare. Then at what percentage? If you have to employ a police state to deal with that reality, you can push harder, but at what point does the cost of paying for the police state to keep control cost more than if you allowed the labor force to be a little less productive and paid a little better (have more benefits)? As long as the rich get loopholes for taxes, and the middle class and poor pay for the police state, it really isn't any skin off their nose if people are paying for the tools of the state to get rich off them and keep them in line. But you can push people too far, the question is always how far will be too far.

    We see them as greedy, and blind, but actually they have been pretty incremental and careful about how they have nickled and dimed us, with inflation adjustments salaries rose in the fifties and sixties and they stalled it in the seventies and from the eighties till now real inflation adjusted pay is down from then to now about 20% for white males. That was twenty years, an average of one percent a year, and there were no revolutions or riots because the nickling and diming went so slowly that people were just adjusting their lives and lifestyles to poverty that creeped onto them. Recessions would come and knock them down farther dramatically, and then recoveries would come and restore some of what they once had though not quite as much and they'd be grateful and feeling like they were making progress forward when it is always one step forward and two steps back.

    The current recession being a bad one will probably drive wages and benefits down even farther and more dramatically than before, do you really think the recovery won't have people who went down another 10% in wages in the bad times ungrateful when their wages co back up 6% even if they are 4% lower than before the recession. They won't notice the overall creeping trend, and count themselves lucky.

    They might not even need much of a police state to keep doing this to people.

    However.

    There is a phenomenon in the physics of chemistry, about fluids that can be super-cooled, or brought below the freezing temperature without actually freezing. The smallest shock or catalyst could cause it to instantly become a solid.

    If wages are driven down below a certain point, if lifestyles are driven down far enough, there may be absolutely no appearance of people becoming radicalized. They may be unhappy, they may have a memory of twenty years before and how they live now, or how their parents once lived, but they'll feel alone and powerless and speak the party line for fear of standing out. It may appear that the police state would be useless, a waste of money, a standing military not-needed. The population a bunch of passive sheep. They could have crossed the natural threshold where people would normally in Europe would have risen up and overthrown their leaders a decade earlier, and yet there would be no appearance of disorder, not even anything beyond normal in the blogosphere.

    And then a small thing could happen, and almost overnight the population is screaming for their politicians to be hung in the streets, and the people who fund them and pull their strings.

    I don't know if we've passed that supercooled threshold, but that's what the large standing military is for, just in case they pushed people too far.

    In which case, I have a feeling they'll merge with the popular sentiment and redirect it, like the military will declare the government incompetent and corrupt, sacrifice the puppet leaders... and actually enact some very popular socialistic style measures to benefit the public almost immediately (because the military does socialism better than any civilian arm of the government ever could or would) but they'd insulate the wealthy and in a police state condition they'd target the radicals who see the real target and eliminate them. People would probably get a fairer deal, a new legislative process would be declared, it would win lots of popular support and a new era of prosperity where they'll say how it's so much better than what the leftists would have done. It would be like how people lived so well in the fifties and sixties in response to the "red threat", and they'd chalk it up as a loss... for a while, a sacrifice to placate that generation who had enough. The rich would still have power though, and they'd have to start on that generation with the slow nickling and diming all over again.
    • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

      Thu, November 12, 2009 - 7:04 PM
      im following your point--i can see--you have thought this thru--much farther than ive had the vision.,and by god your onto something--its quite the story line--darn it.,now you got me thinking.,
      • Re: It's still mathematically impossible

        Fri, November 13, 2009 - 2:15 PM
        of course there is a danger.

        Politicians can be bought

        The corperate military industrial complex offers sweet high wage jobs for retired top brass as an incentive, if politicians were elminated and we did have a military government, the military would in effect be the new puppets for the rich, to replace the old puppets of the elected leaders.

        However, they'll be puppets in the command of lots of guns, in a state of emergency, with a lot of power. Some generals might turn on their masters if one among them promises power beyond what incentives the wealthy they were supposed to protect and serve have. There is always a fair chance that outcome can happen. Top brass has to know that the politicians are just a smokescreen and that the real power resides with those who are rich enough to fund them, so who do you think they'll resent and blame for the quagmire in Afghanistan and Iraq that they have been subjected to? Generals were mad enough to retire as a means of protest with the last administration, and then start speaking out to the media stating they didn't get a clear mission or the resources they needed.

        Remember that when Hitler left his top brass feeling that way there was a bomb in the suitcase waiting for him.

        This is why I don't think all of the very rich are too keen on military governments, this is why some of them actually fear them and would prefer civilian governments... even liberal ones... because what they risk may not even be worth what they stand to gain. I think the neo-con concept won them over until they saw some of what they might have to fear, and then threw their money into the Democratic warchest to stop that process from going too far.

        But I don't think the rich are a homogenous unit, not even our most wealthy and powerful, even if keeping their position is their primary imperative their division is based on their own beleif of what they stand to gain and risk, how much risk is too much, and whether any gains they get from squeezing people harder will not have other costs that in the end will represent no gain and perhaps even a loss, along with increased risk of people not being happy enough to be apathetic (or at least numbed to stupor).

        I have a feeling one option is they may legalize and distribute weed massively. I people are stoned and watching TV, and eating inexpensive nachos they can be driven much further into poverty without much complaint. I know that the conditions of life I was content to live with when I used to get stoned more regularly I'd never be able to tolerate now. If your room stinks of old socks, there is food encrusted moldy dishes in the sink, the yard is piled high with dog poop, and it doesn't bother you because you are high it is unlikely that you'll be able to summon the outrage necessary for revolution (peaceful or otherwise). You could be bought off with a bag of doritos, and a DVD collection of Sifl and Ollie episodes.

        Crescent fresh, yeah.

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