As it has come up in another thread I thought I would bring up forgiveness as a general topic for all.
Is forgiveness necessary?
Is a grudge always attached to the absence of forgiveness?
Is forgiveness necessary?
Is a grudge always attached to the absence of forgiveness?
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Sacramento
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Re: Forgiveness
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 12:27 PMForgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving.
I would say a grudge is the absence of forgiveness, yes. It really just describes a knot of energy, which can be a burden to the person carrying it.
I like this way of putting it:
Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past.
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Re: Forgiveness
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 1:05 PMyeah, I lie Wheather's way of putting it.
I hear that forgiveness is a western concept..perhaps very christian. I have not looked into non-western cultures...
The thing about forgiveness that I don't like is that there is an assumption of power one has over another being..
that if one never forgives another person, the other person is somehow in debt.. that notion strikes me as oppressive.
these are my first random thoughts..
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"Forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving"
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 12:09 AMI agree with this, Whether....hate (or other negative thoughts) is like a poison that destroys its own container. It may be that there is no way to reconcile with or forgive the person who hurt you; ie: they have died or you don't know where they are. In that case, a strategy of mine is to change how I think of that person. Instead of anger or hate, I substitute pity. I feel sorry for them that they acted the way they did because they misunderstood my words or actions or motives.....doesn't always work, but it helps. After all, it is MY health that is at stake if I can't find a way to forgive.
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Re: Forgiveness
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 1:31 PMWhile they relate, I don't feel there is a necessary connection.
A grudge is an active thing. A refusal to forgive.
A lack of forgiveness could simply be a lack of interest. -
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Re: Forgiveness
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 7:27 PMI don't know - a lack of forgiveness, to me, indicates an attachment remaining, ergo not a lack of interest. -
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Re: Forgiveness
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 7:37 PMActually, people can and do cease caring. And when folks come around demanding forgiveness or demanding that the uncaring "get over it!" then, well, who is maintaining and forwarding the issue(s)? As to interest--we all have an interest in not continuing relationships with folks who seem to be constantly in need of forgiveness, right? -
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Re: Forgiveness
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 7:49 PMBut if they don't care, they are over it. This seems different to me than an ongoing grudge.
As I said, in my opinion, forgiveness is for the forgiver. Not that some people don't feel they need forgiveness - but once you've learned to forgive yourself for your shit, forgiving others is easy. At that point, who is keeping score? -
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 12:55 AM>But if they don't care, they are over it.
Obviously, we can argue semantics till the cows come home. It won't change the fact that ceasing to care may mean ceasing to have any feeling about a person whatsoever. If there is a choice not to care then you can decide whether that is a "grudge" or not. I'm just saying that people get hurt and, as a defensive mechanism, they simply stop caring about who ever has hurt them...one way or the other. If that person isn't around, they don't think about it and they don't obsess over it. Of course, if that person keeps showing up and continues to be a pain, and doesn't let one forget then...
Main Entry:
2grudge
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century
: a feeling of deep-seated resentment or ill will
synonyms see malice
What I find odd is when someone is a guest of your's and then they somehow get it into their head that you should leave because things didn't work out. Weird stuff. In that case, I'd consider that to be a grudge and not lack of caring. Why people do that obviously has something to do with a need to dominate other people...usually in very unhealthy ways.
It is true that someone bearing a grudge will often not listen to reason because they become attached to their view of things and cannot see anything different...as it would threaten their whole understanding of how things went down...why they went down the way they did; threaten their paradigm for why they feel the way they do, etc. In any case, I expect mature people to move on with a minimum of grudging. I don't really care if they stop caring if that is what they want to do...but to be malicious just to "get even", especially at imagined wrongs? Weird stuff. Even weirder when groups of folks work themselves up to a fever pitch in that manner.
Of course, my favorite is when you've just met someone for the first time and they simply don't like you. The only reason? Because you remind them of someone they didn't like a long time ago...or someone they thought they liked but somehow didn't work out for them...so they continue this past failure, by someone else, some other relationship, with you. -
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 5:06 AMtm: I'm just saying that people get hurt and
People also get hurt and then get over it without the need for ritual mea culpas. Too much "forgiving" and begging "forgiveness" sucks the life from a relationship.
Also, not caring about people who hurt you isn't a "defensive mechanism."
Some one who hurts you is asking you not to care about them.
If they made a mistake or it was an accident, they let you know.
If you think it was a mistake or an accident, you can ask.
But fundamentally hurting some one is telling them to piss off.
It is a fair warning, not an apology, which is morally required. -
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"not caring about people who hurt you isn't a 'defensive mechanism.' "
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 8:21 AMI don't agree. Shutting poeple out and going from empathy to apathy can be a defense mechanism. I've been witness to that. -
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Re: "not caring about people who hurt you isn't a 'defensive mechanism.' "
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:22 AMPa: Shutting people out and going from empathy to apathy can be a defense mechanism.
I suspect you are referring to "preemptively" shutting people in general out. In which case I would agree that isn't a good place to get stuck in though I would disagree that it is inherently problematic as a transient state when dealing with a specific issue.
However I would argue that not caring about a specific person who is hurtful towards you is preferable to either continuing to cling to trying to care about them or actively disliking them. I see no point in wasting any mental space on such a person one way or the other.
I've never bought into the messianic fantasy of either the Xtians or the Mahayanists.
If some one doesn't wish me to care about them that is their choice and I respect that. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: "not caring about people who hurt you isn't a 'defensive mechanism.' "
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:52 AM"I suspect you are referring to "preemptively" shutting people in general out."
Nope.
"In which case I would agree that isn't a good place to get stuck in though I would disagree that it is inherently problematic as a transient state when dealing with a specific issue. "
Wait, is this meant for me as well?
"However I would argue that not caring about a specific person who is hurtful towards you is preferable to either continuing to cling to trying to care about them or actively disliking them. I see no point in wasting any mental space on such a person one way or the other. "
Agreed.
"I've never bought into the messianic fantasy of either the Xtians or the Mahayanists. "
Again I agree, though I prefer the middle road in this and try to discern when it would be healthier to forgive and when not.
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Re: "not caring about people who hurt you isn't a 'defensive mechanism.' "
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:23 PMpa: Nope.
Ok, bear in mind I find Freud a bunch of hooey, but as I understand it to be a "defense mechanism" there needs to be an unreasonable level of denial, distortion or projection. Not having social feelings towards some one anti social, would not be a "defense mechanism."
To qualify it would have to be not feeling social towards people one would normally expect to have social feelings toward.
Pa: Wait, is this meant for me as well?
As in you personally? No, not at all. Merely an observation that most "aberrant" behaviors serve necessary transient roles and only really become an issue if one gets stuck. So, for example, if one was betrayed it would be expected to withdraw a bit in general. It would only become an issue if the magnitude of withdrawal came between the person and their friends or if they weren't able to interact with strangers after a reasonable period had lapsed. I've noticed that there is a tendency to see anything outside a very narrow accepted band as something "abnormal" and therefor needing billing, um, treatment.
Pa: I prefer the middle road in this and try to discern when it would be healthier to forgive and when not.
So the relevant part would be the "and when not."
My "and when not" is that option needs no further pursuit beyond that point. I don't feel a need to ask for or give forgiveness in those circumstances. Not every social interaction requires closure and an approved resolution.
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:42 AMMaking a choice not to care has an aspect of shutting down, in my book. I guess it's a personal call, but to me there's a difference between real letting go and repressing an unpleasant feeling or association. IOW, if you are applying energy to keep someone out of your head or heart, if "not caring" is subtly requiring energy to maintain, then that's still a grudge. Just because it's quiet doesn't mean it is not being held.
That's my experience, anyway. I'm just contrasting that with an open-hearted feeling, which may not have required conscious forgiveness, but which has no more energy attached to it. -
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"if "not caring" is subtly requiring energy to maintain, then that's still a grudge"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:46 AMDo you feel that not caring always requires energy to maintain? -
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Re: "if "not caring" is subtly requiring energy to maintain, then that's still a grudge"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:31 AMpa; Do you feel that not caring always requires energy to maintain?
If it takes energy, then you still care. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: "if "not caring" is subtly requiring energy to maintain, then that's still a grudge"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:46 AMIndeed. Therefore not caring takes no energy.
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Re: "if "not caring" is subtly requiring energy to maintain, then that's still a grudge"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 6:02 PMNo, I don't think that's an absolute at all. I'm just talking about cases where it _is_ taking energy. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: "if "not caring" is subtly requiring energy to maintain, then that's still a grudge"
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:45 PMwh: cases where it _is_ taking energy.
Those aren't cases of not caring.
Claiming to not care while actually still caring is not the same as actually not caring.
It is perhaps confusing because it is so often misused, but there is a point of balance where there is neither aversion nor desire, where it simply is not an issue.
We had one of those moments today in a class I'm in at the moment. The instructor asked how many wanted to go to lunch now, one hand. He almost falsely determined we must want to go to lunch later, but he checked, no hands. So he asked how many didn't care and the rest of us raised our hands. So the one hand won.
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:30 AMwh: Making a choice not to care has an aspect of shutting down, in my book. I guess it's a personal call, but to me there's a difference between real letting go and repressing an unpleasant feeling or association.
I think you are trying to imply activity where there is none.
Letting go is just that. No "open hearted feeling." No dislike. No wanting to make amends or hoping they get theirs.
Its no further consideration.
I know that goes against the current trends in pop psych, but that's ok. There is more to life than obsessing over every loose end in your life. -
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 6:10 PMSwarm: I think you are trying to imply activity where there is none.
Letting go is just that. No "open hearted feeling." No dislike. No wanting to make amends or hoping they get theirs.
Its no further consideration.
I know that goes against the current trends in pop psych, but that's ok. There is more to life than obsessing over every loose end in your life.
I agree. I suppose the "activity" I am relating to comes of reflecting on when I've felt most free (which does indeed feel neutral, though initially there's a sense of relief) as opposed to the sometimes very subtle carry-over when I've forced myself to "not care" or not think about a conflict.
There is the other side of it, of course, where so much energy is invested in "being open" that it's a full-time job. This seems to be all about creating an identity that matches some ideal, and that's not what I'm talking about either.
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 4:11 AMwh: a lack of forgiveness, to me, indicates an attachment remaining
I think you are confusing lack and refusal.
I think we have an unhealthy craving for forgiveness from the weird way xtians think every one is born guilty of some horrible crime. -
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I think we have an unhealthy craving for forgiveness from the weird way xtians think every one is born guilty of some horrible crime.
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 8:14 AMThat's an interesting statement. I hadn't thought about that before.
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:45 AMSwarm: I think we have an unhealthy craving for forgiveness from the weird way xtians think every one is born guilty of some horrible crime.
I agree people crave to be forgiven, but I don't think people crave to forgive. Even though there is great relief in finding that capacity, in the sense that a lot of bound energy can be released in doing so. -
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:48 AMSo then, do you think that there is a craving for others to practice forgiveness? -
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Re: Forgiveness
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 1:29 PMPersonally, I think that human forgiveness is an inherent trait of homo sapiens sapiens. If it weren't, how would we ever get over all those perceived wrongs and slights that we receive through out our lives? I'm talking about all the little things--the sniping, the teasing, the razzing--that happens because one, in fact all of us, are not perfect...but wish that we were...want to think that we can be, can be made to be. So, you have to forgive, forget, etc...otherwise, well, you'd probably go crazy...maybe there are a few people who remember all the wrongs done em who don't go crazy, maybe somewhere. But, really, the best policy, possibly even evolutionarily selected for, is to forgive and/or forget.
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