Are there such things as rights? What bestows rights upon us? Are we entitled to anything? Why do we feel entitled?
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 8:11 PMRights are a human concept, and thus we bestow the rights on ourselves. Generally we do this via society/government. So, as our founding people thought, certain rights should be guaranteed by the government. The life liberty and pursuit of happiness part was just oratory; the real rights are spelled out in the constitution and the bill of rights. "Entitlement", used pejoratively, is a concept made up by the majority, for when minorities want the same rights as they have. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 9:49 PMI figure that if the Declaration of Independence was signed by delegates, that makes it a legal agreement and more than just oratory. According to them (not me) rights are endowed by the Creator and governments just secure these rights.
In reality, it works pretty much as you say.
-
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 10:49 PMI think it's helpful to act as if rights exist, but I don't see any evidence for any objective existence of theirs. At best, I think you could say that rights are a product of social contract. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 12:22 AMFor instance, do any of us have a "right" to be alive? I don't think so. We are born. Birth is not a "right;" it is a biological event. Do we have a "right" to stay alive, once we are born? No. We either make it, or we don't. Do we have a "right" to free speech? No. It is something that social contract has given us. Thus, it is an entitlement. It can be lost, in certain circumstances. Does the United States have a "right" to exist as a nation? No. What higher power would grant such a right, or legislate such an entitlement?
-
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 11:19 PMI feel entitled to lefts.
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 4:40 AMI think of 'rights' as those aspects to our existance which is innate to our being. We have the right to behave as human beings because we are born without a choice in the matter. So bound by our construct, we have a right to conduct ourselves as we are genetically inclined.
Entitlement comes only after we have contributed something of value to a collective and are due, or need, recompense by the collective.
We have a right to our nature, and are entitled to as much as we are willing to contribute (which is not to say you'll get either).
Well, that's what I think. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 7:15 AMWe have a "right" to TRY and stay alive, and an " Entitlment " to the basic tools to do so. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 12:37 PMNo Rights are bestowed upon us==just answer me WHO is going to give you said Right?. Period. And entitlement is pure ego. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 5:04 PMwhenever I hear the word "entitled" now all I can think of are the people I often have to deal with at work who seem to have been born feeling entitled to the best of everything -- people who have or are aligned with money or even are just rumored to have money (but don't actually have any) who feel entitled to special deals (never pay retail or taxes), exemptions (never fill out applications or comply with rules, and get them to actually pay you to do what you want), and just generally expect to be ass-kissed at all times by everyone around them,. Strangely and strangely, people who are real deadbeats, have no money at all, but are used to working the system, often act the same way. Nothing about "earned" anywhere in any of this!
-
-
-
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 4:31 AMI think this sums up rights fairly well:
"...the people have only as much liberty as they have the inteligence to want and the courage to take." - Emma Goldman
Whatever rights the people have they first demanded and then fought for, at great cost of human life, and took great courage to obtain. In short, "we the people" bestow the rights upon ourselves. That seems like the whole point of the Declaration, no?
Jefferson wrote it into the first lines:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
"deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
Rights derive from the people. When enough people see an injustice and demand action against it, a new right is born. Well, not exactly...usually years of struggle ensue, followed by violence and craziness...but then the new right gets forced down the throat of the government. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 10:57 AMJefferson would probably be leading another revolution if he was alive today if he lived those words... Of course Cheney would have put Washington and Jefferson and Paine in Gitmo to be water tortured and driven crazy with isolation and sleep deprivation etc etc.
So much for their idea of a democratic republic. Just a goddam piece of paper after all. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 3:34 PMWell Seal, I agree with you. Jefferson would be leading a revolution were he alive today.
Also, it is interesting to note that Jefferson wrote about the very problem you're talking about right in that quote I posted from the Declaration:
"all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. "
-
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 6:14 PMI guess this is what I was getting at. What are, precisely, "inalienable rights?" This idea came out of the Age of Enlightenment and the glorification of all things ancient, such as Greek philosophy, mathematics, philosophy, art...etc., etc. The concept of inalienable rights is akin to the Aritstotlean concept of ideal form. Supposedly, there are "rights" that exist in a vacuum, that are analogous to the ideal triangle. Personally, I think this is bullshit. It's a fun little philosophical exercise that cannot be proven or disproven by empirical means. Are there such things as "inalienable rights?" Like belief in "GOD," I suppose it's a matter of faith. If you wish to believe in rights, then go ahead. I don't think we have any, period. -
-
Re: "Rights" vs "Entitlement"
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 5:48 AMBadA,
Do you think we have a right to try and stay alive ? This to me, would seam to be difnitively inalienable.
And if it is, would it not give you the right to, defend yourself, to acquire food , water and shelter ?
Are you entitled to the tools to achive this ?
The freedom to maintain your, and your loved ones lifes, in a humain , peacfull manner, ( to me ) is the core of our constatution. And that constatution is simply an effort to establish that standard with a definable paramiter.
-
-