Ripley, WV - about 23yrs. ago. A cook at Ripley High School was having martial problems. Her husband enters the School cafeteria, with handgun, to effect a permanent solution to those problems. He sees her, and fires. She is wounded, and runs through a door into the hallway. Her husband walks calmly toward the hallway.
A student, the football team safety, leaps from his seat, and heads for the gunman, intent on bringing him down. He is grabbed by a teammate. The safety says; “Go left, hit him high. I’ll go straight in, and hit him low.” The teammate answers,“You’re crazy, he’s got a gun.” The safety replies, “So.” A second teammate joins in, saying “Get down, Get down.”
As the safety tries to convince his now two teammates to make a three way attack, the husband goes through the door, finds his wounded wife on the floor, and fires point blank into her head.
He walks calmly back though the cafeteria, and exits the School.
What if the three football players had made for the gunman? There is little doubt in my mind, the gunman would have been taken down. He could possibly gotten off a shot; but even if he managed to take out one, the other two would have been on him a moment later.
Now, what if the entire body of students, and staff, in that cafeteria had been prepared, by previous training and drill, to go after anyone firing a gun in their School. At the first shot, books, trays, and drink containers would be hurled, followed by a mass assault by 30-40 people. It would have been over in less than 10 seconds.
I realize this concept is too much to expect of Middle School and lower students, but High School students, well, maybe why not? And College Students, absolutely. If the students and faculty at UVA had, as a group defended themselves, the death toll would have been reduced to a very few, if any.
Looks like a solution. Why is it an unacceptable solution?
A student, the football team safety, leaps from his seat, and heads for the gunman, intent on bringing him down. He is grabbed by a teammate. The safety says; “Go left, hit him high. I’ll go straight in, and hit him low.” The teammate answers,“You’re crazy, he’s got a gun.” The safety replies, “So.” A second teammate joins in, saying “Get down, Get down.”
As the safety tries to convince his now two teammates to make a three way attack, the husband goes through the door, finds his wounded wife on the floor, and fires point blank into her head.
He walks calmly back though the cafeteria, and exits the School.
What if the three football players had made for the gunman? There is little doubt in my mind, the gunman would have been taken down. He could possibly gotten off a shot; but even if he managed to take out one, the other two would have been on him a moment later.
Now, what if the entire body of students, and staff, in that cafeteria had been prepared, by previous training and drill, to go after anyone firing a gun in their School. At the first shot, books, trays, and drink containers would be hurled, followed by a mass assault by 30-40 people. It would have been over in less than 10 seconds.
I realize this concept is too much to expect of Middle School and lower students, but High School students, well, maybe why not? And College Students, absolutely. If the students and faculty at UVA had, as a group defended themselves, the death toll would have been reduced to a very few, if any.
Looks like a solution. Why is it an unacceptable solution?
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West Virginia
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:37 AMin my head all I keep thinking someone else beside the wife would have been shot....in this case someone's child. I know I couldn't encourage someone's teenage child to take action...that is putting their life in jeopardy...
I probably would have tried to knock the gun out of his hand with something...and probably been sued for assaulting him...cause its been known to happen. -
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 8:39 PMNaw, wouldn't work. 99.9% of people (most of the time 100% for that matter) in such a situation will either have their brain freeze, try to hide, or turn to flee. Self preservation rules the part of the brain that kicks in at that point. It is damn hard to deal with the ancient lizard brain!
Being able to recognize what is about to happen or happening without screaming WTF, evaluate it instantly and then act correctly takes years of physical practice along with a lot of thought and meditation. And truthfully, a bit of luck, too.
Even then a person suddenly finds themselves in trouble and finds out that they aren't "built" to react this way, even after years of training. I've seen it happen, great fighter in the dojo but gets seriously mangled on the street the first time in a confrontation. Painful lesson!
Most college kids aren't going to have the time in to be good at this, much less teeners and younger.. Sorry to, a*hem, shoot this idea down... -
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:47 PMHave we become so spoiled we are no longer capable of defending our "group".
Nice observation: "great fighter in the dojo but gets seriously mangled on the street the first time in a confrontation."
I have seen the reverse happen; terrible fighter in the dojo, but ripped the guy apart who jumped him on the street.
One of my daughters is hair-triggered. She put the mugger flat on the ground, dropped her full weight on one knee just above the sternum, and slammed her knuckles into the throat. Weapon went flying. Mugger went from hunter to prey in an instant.
Funny ending. She storms into the house, grabs phone, calls 911, tells story in three clipped sentences, ending with "I'll meet you where I left him", and hangs up. Cops show as she (and I) come up. Mugger's still on the ground trying to breath. Street drunk who watched the whole thing says to cop, "I told him not to take that girls money. I TOLD him! That girl crazy!"
Working out on a mat, she's hopeless.
Sorry, far off subject, sorta, but it's a damn good story.
And a great example in self defense.
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:58 PMI agree with Seal many folks freeze...
Me personally I don't . I sometimes wish I could have a freeze button but I don't. I have actually gone to the rescue of more people then I care to admit...
last time was 3 years ago..some old man was walking his dog and a guy was harashing him. It turned ugly. The guy turned on the old man and was beating him...tons of people were watching...I was with 2 other girlfriends...when i saw the old man crying...i ran without a second thought...I went up to the guy and pulled him away...and the guy pushed me and I fell. BIG mistake. From the ground I kicked him and tripped him...got on his back and nailed him. One of my girlfriends saw what I was doing and she sat on him while I held him down...he tried to hit me so I hit him back...ok I beat him up. Every time he opened his mouth to call me a name I punched him...man had a potty mouth and my fist was trained to react. We held him down for a good 20 minutes until the cops came to take him away. When they came for him, he was so dazed that he kept falling down...the cops did nothing to me...since I rescued the old man ....
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 11:01 PMNow here's a funny story on reaction...I was on 8th street in the village...I was on my way to the east...
when I saw this guy running away with a bag he had grabbed from a female....I chased his ass...and tackled him
(btw I have played football...and some of you have seen my mudwrestling photos, so you know what i can handle)
anyway..I pushed him down...and he started yelling..stop stop..I'm a student actor....lol omg it turns out a few NYU students were making a film about street mugging and I had not seen the camera....I was embarassed...but they were impressed with my reaction
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 12:57 AMSeal, I think that there are some people who just react, and don't consider self preservation. Too many men have dived on grenades to save buddies, without any time to think.
But you are very right, that the number statistically who react is very low. I know a nurse who couldn't make it as a paramedic, just didn't react appropriately. But some people do, unerringly, do the right thing. And sometimes they do that to their own detriment. That's why so many Medal of Honor winners are posthumous.... -
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 11:57 AMAs a Kenpo instructor of 2+ decades, I've seen both sides of this Edward, and I agree! Some people are terrible fighters in the studio because it's FAKE. too controlled. Their true reactions and capabilities aren't being allowed to kick in because they are having to hold back or pull strikes rather than following through. Don't want to seriously disrupt the physical functioning of your fellow students!
Disclosure: I found out that I was lousy in tournaments for the same reason...fake fighting for a plastic trophy. :) That's not why I went into the dojo. Sounds like your daughter has good instincts by the way. My oldest was the same way. She hated sparring but was a mean-ass little fighter off the mat.
I've jumped in between numerous times over the years. Sigh. It is NEVER fun and I do not like it. I'm also not able to ignore, have that "want to help" instinct I guess. Occasionally on the street but many such incidents were while working with or running a concert security crew at different NorCal venues. I've stopped shit both before it got started and (unfortunately) after it already went bad. Always a sad thing to be involved in. Some trigger goes off inside and you just MOVE so it seems like I have the same button you've got, Ro!
But I've never jumped actors before!!! That was funny...probably not for that poor guy you sqaushed to the pavement, though. Hitting concrete that hard hurts!
One statistic I read on this is interesting; the bigger the crowd the less likely people will react. Ever walk up to a crowd and suddenly realize they're all watching somebody get beat up and doing nothing? Been there! Rode up on my quad at a Sierra Nevada World Music Festival to this huge crowd in one of the camping areas. Two guys were beating this guy up and maybe a hundred people were just standing there watching. It was 105'F in the freaking shade and here they all were just standing there with their mouths open. Holy shit that was weird! But this study showed that if there are just a couple of people within view one is almost certain to get involved. The herd of cows mentality (brain freeze).
Back to school shootings...no, there isn't any quick fix or answer here. Now I hear about arming teachers or letting college students carry. Sheesh, drunken frat boys carrying Glocks doesn't seem like much of a solution.
Another interesting stat: most (every?) school shooter were either on big pharma psy drugs or was known to be exibiting mental problems or was a patient. The very first school shooting, Hubbard Woods Elementary (May 20 '88), was by a woman named Dann who had a history of mental illness and gun violence. She ushered in the era of school shootings... I just read an article that talked about school shootings.
When Reagan killed the mental health in Cali as gov, then nationally after he was installed as the corporate teflon idiot president, he put a huge number of people with serious problems out on the street instantly. I remember this because suddenly there were all these "bums" living in the alley of the SoCal beach I grew up on. Closed the hospitals in Cali, cut out-patient funding, closed clinics, fired doctors omg was it a clearcut of mental health programs and then the whole country got axed a decade later.
Dann might have been helped except there wasn't any funding left in '88 for any professional care. Falling through deliberately created cracks sorry to say. Now of course it is far worse under Reagan's direct ideological decendents bush & cheney.
It is year 28 of the Reagan Era. Are we having fun yet? -
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Re: A Solution to UVA, Columbine, Domestic Terrorism.
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 6:27 PMGuns in the hands of people with the will to use them will stop criminals and terrorists and deranged killers. I have guns for hunting and home defense. I also have a security system installed at home. I'm out of school so I don't have to deal with maniacs.
Seriously though if people know that their targets are armed, no matter how crazy they are they will seek unarmed prey. We should ARM security guards and post therm in schools. Our children are worth the investment.
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