the OTHER news from Iran

topic posted Tue, June 23, 2009 - 3:57 PM by  Evan
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Stories with different perspectives on the whole Iran thing….

Don’t trust mainstream reporters. They are using propaganda to prepare our people for a war of aggression in Iran, yet another effort by the PNAC (Project for a New American Century) and the Zbigniew Brezinskis of the world to extend the American Empire and bring the Caucusus under our direct domination for the next century. Please, don't be suckered in by their fake news, and their rally to war. This is an effort to destroy sovereign nations for our own financial gain - for oil - plain and simple.

Find the truth online.

“No one should question the value of non-violent civil disobedience for those who would bring down an unpopular government. Nor does the American training deny the very real grievances felt by the millions of Iranians who have taken to the streets - or by the lesser numbers of middle-class women who banged pots and pans as part of earlier CIA destabilization programs in Brazil and Chile. Even more important, no one should doubt the courage and commitment of anyone who would stand up against the Ayatollahs and their repressive state power.
But the presence of American involvement adds several dynamics of its own, which Ackerman and Ahmadi failed to explain to their Iranian trainees.”
www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL.../S00224.htm

“ Why is there so little discussion of the issue of class in this election? Is it because so many professional and semi-professional commentators on Iran are themselves from the same class as Mousavi's supporters, and so instinctively identify with them? Myself, I'm a worker, and a former union organizer. When I watched the videos and viewed the photos of the pro-Mousavi rallies in Tehran and other cities, I didn't feel elated - I felt a chill. To me, this didn't look like a liberal reform movement, it felt like a movement whose real target is a government that exercises a "preferential option for the poor," to use the words of Christian liberation theology.”
www.truthout.org/061909R

“ The issue came to a head in the last few weeks. Obama wanted to bring the Iranian regime to the table, and the administration knew through scholars like Selig Harrison that the ayatollahs wanted a signal that the new president would stop supporting terrorists within Iran. At the end of May, the chance to send that signal came when Jundallah claimed credit for a suicide bombing that killed 25 people and injured as many as 125 others at a prominent Shiite mosque in the southeastern city of Zahedan.
Both the White House and State Department immediately denounced the bombing and denied any involvement in what Obama's spokesman Robert Gibbs explicitly called "recent terrorist attacks inside Iran."
Several news articles then reported that the administration was considering placing Jundallah on the State's Department's list of terrorist organizations, which would have signaled a major shift in policy. But, suddenly, the administration backed away from making the terrorist designation or from otherwise indicating that it would stop the destabilization campaign.
To the contrary, in the build-up to the Iranian election, Washington sharpened its propaganda efforts. According to Ken Timmerman, the executive director of the right-wing Foundation for Democracy in Iran, the Persian Service of Voice of America (VOA) clearly sided with the anti-Ahmadinejad candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi against those dissident groups who wanted to boycott the election entirely, the position Timmerman favored.”
www.truthout.org/061809J

“Without any evidence, many U.S. politicians and "Iran experts" have dismissed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's reelection Friday, with 62.6 percent of the vote, as fraud.

They ignore the fact that Ahmadinejad’s 62.6 percent of the vote in this year’s election is essentially the same as the 61.69 percent he received in the final count of the 2005 presidential election, when he trounced former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. The shock of the "Iran experts" over Friday’s results is entirely self-generated, based on their preferred assumptions and wishful thinking.”
votersforpeace.us/press/index.php
posted by:
Evan
Los Angeles
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  • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

    Tue, June 23, 2009 - 4:18 PM
    I've listened to a lot of really good analysis of this on npr, particularly the diane rehm show where one of the guests had been spending much time in the countryside for the last year and she told us how unpopular almadenajad is among farmers, and how the electrion results had Mousavi losing among azeris and he is one, and in his home town where he is hugely popular. The BBC says that election totals in 50 cities exceeds the population there. The election is not only very fraudulant (very!) bit an insult to the considerable intelligence of the persian people!

    The rest of that is, in my opinion, paranoid libertarian/right wing propaganda with absolutely no basis in reality.
    • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

      Tue, June 23, 2009 - 4:29 PM
      I now am unable to believe much of anything I hear about events elsewhere in the world, especially when U.S. media usually ignores them and there seems to always be a seriously ulterior motive any time our media do focus on things like Iran. And North Korea -- which is also happening. The media has been so complicit in bringing us to wars, so many wars now----I simply don't know what to believe. And I hate the feeling that gives me, as I am bombarded on all sides with news of events that in themselves are upsetting, if true, and yet I don't know how much of it is true. Sure, there are plenty of people who'll jump up and down and say you have to believe all this, it's on Twitter!! Maybe yes, maybe no. There have been so many fraudulent elections----often interfered with by the U.S. government-----fraudulent here and elsewhere. I just cannot forget how things have developed in recent years. I am kind of stuck to find an event that the U.S. media did intensively cover that wasn't crooked in some way in the past two, almost three decades. It's not like things were in the Vietnam era, when there was still some limit to duplicity, it seemed. There's no limit now.
      • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

        Tue, June 23, 2009 - 4:48 PM
        thanks Will

        Lumiere, I knwo what you mean.. It was not too long ago that we questioned a presidential election outcome. And in my state the governor race had to have votes recounted more than once....
    • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

      Tue, June 23, 2009 - 4:40 PM
      With respect Wil...PBS cannot be trusted.

      And NONE of these sources I posted have ANY form of libertarian leanings. In fact, if anything...the authors are PROGRESSIVES.

      Please, do not make such insults and generalizations without at least investigating first.
      • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

        Tue, June 23, 2009 - 5:29 PM
        No insult intended evan, but i certainly have investigated much. I'm quite familiar with the brezenski quote you used. We all use sources that we trust i guess, and i tend to listen bbc and pbs ( depending on whether it makes sense to me) and very much not trust "truth out". I also like to read a lot of the foreign press analysis. It is certainly good to use multiple sources! I very much like the trend towards citizen journalists empowered by their own sense of justice, cell phones and laptops.
        • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

          Tue, June 23, 2009 - 5:40 PM
          I think what is happening is a coup by the right wing revolutionary guards and their allies Not really an unexpected development, and in a big way just more of the same of shit.

          This is very concise and interesting with regard to the election results claimed by the govt.:
          www.juancole.com/2009/06/s...ction.html
          • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

            Tue, June 23, 2009 - 5:47 PM
            This is a much more in depth analysis of the iranian political scene, and the reason that i tend to believe it is that it closely matches the other information that i've gotten from sources which seem to me more highly informed.

            www.juancole.com/2009/06/c...anian.html
            • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

              Tue, June 23, 2009 - 11:27 PM
              wil, do you really think that the US government WANTS a democratic Iran? Nationalizing their oil got the last democratic Iran overthrown by the CIA in the early 50s...and the US place the mass murderer Shah of Iran in power. That's democracy? What, you're going to believe that "we've" got their best interests at heart now? Give me a break! Yo been watching too much tv, man...

              The history of the US is almost completely one of NOT supporting "democratic" rule anywhere in the world...Saddam and Marcos and Noreiga and Duvalier and Pinochet and the Contras of Reagan/Bush 1 and on and on and on the list goes of dictators either supported secretly by the US government or openly, plus direct assasination and coup d'etat of elected leaders by our military.

              What, has everyone forgotten Wanker Bush admitting that the US had secret black op teams IN IRAN SUPPORTING TERRORIST ACTS against the Iranian government a couple years back? How stupid are Americans? Pretty goddam empty-headed if they can't remember anything back longer than a few months!

              I believe nothing the US media and government and military and corporations say. They are all liars. History has proved that so many times that saying it is completely redundant. Of course so are all the rest of the fucking governments of the world!!! Humans suck.
              • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                Wed, June 24, 2009 - 3:46 AM
                Oh i'm well aware of the u.s and britian's awful history with iran. worser than you say even. But things change. Elements in the u.s. govt sure do not want democracy there. But for the most part i thing the american people and govt do. Things change.

                ummm. I have not had a tv in decades seal.
              • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                Wed, June 24, 2009 - 3:49 AM
                Humans suck? Compared to who? Our task is to work the best we can with what we have, seal. Mixed bag, mixed reviews. All mixed up. Very complex situation. You gonna give up cause people don't meet your standards. well believe me, i wish people were smarter..... but we have to work with the material and situation that we have to make it better.
  • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

    Wed, June 24, 2009 - 4:31 AM
    Well, whatever else folks here might think about what's happening in Iran....

    Please...I beg of you...take to the streets if they start rattling the sabres. Tell them "NO MORE WAR!" Scream it at the top of your lungs. I'd even ask that you go so far as the willful destruction of government property in an effort to stop the violence.

    I'm fairly confident that the way our media is treating this, talking about it, and such...is all a run-up to war. Don't allow them to take us down that road. Just say NO!
    • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

      Wed, June 24, 2009 - 5:08 AM
      I think that seeing the faces of iranians in the streets is a huge deterrence to war. The push for strikes on iran have been from neo-cons and israeli supporters. Israel so desperate not because of the situation itself but because it needs an external enemy to maintain some semblance of unity in what is in long run a failed state of israel due to tremendous demographic social differences in the country that are papered over with fear and hate for external enemies. Putting a face and story to those enemies makes it very much more difficult to nuke them indiscriminately. Also , the whole situation calls attention to israels illegal nuclear arsenal estimated to have hundreds of warheads on missils capable of going pretty much anywhere. But we would not want such to fall into the hands of an islamic religious state......better safe in hands of a schizo jewish state.
      • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

        Wed, June 24, 2009 - 10:17 AM
        Just so I'm clear, Wil...is that an argument for or against war? Or neither?
        • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

          Wed, June 24, 2009 - 10:25 AM
          .....not an argument at all, i don't reckon. Just the way i see it. But war is ugly and wasteful and bad form and to be avoided if it is at all possible. War is never civil!
          • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

            Wed, June 24, 2009 - 11:43 AM
            wil: "But war is ugly and wasteful and bad form and to be avoided if it is at all possible."

            Agreed. However, war seems to be in our genes. Generations go through cycles, and now that the survivors of our last major all-out war (WWII) are disappearing, people are forgetting the lessons our forefathers learned. The American people (and most everyone else involved in WWII) are becoming more and more attracted to war. And they'll continue to become more and more pro-war until the next major war shocks and horrifies everyone, in which case the cycle starts all over again.

            Iran had their major crisis war in the late 70's and 80's, and the survivors are still around to remember how horrible that was. Thus, they're anti-war at the moment. Just like the Boomers (born after WWII) in the US protested the government in their youth (and brought about change), so too are the Iranian youth (born after the Iran/Iraq war) protesting the government and attempting to bring about change. They'll either succeed (likely) just like the young American Boomers in the 60's or there will be a massacre (like Tieneman Square) (unlikely) where the old guard triumphs over the young folks, which only sets the stage for a violent civil war in the future.

            I think it's reasonably clear that the position of president in Iran is fairly unimportant (really just a figurehead), since it's clear that Ahmadenijad isn't calling any shots. Thus, the protests aren't so much about the election as they are about forcing the Ayatollah to change policies or step down from power. Eventually, because he has staked his reputation on not backing down his only options will be to either massacre the protestors or resign.

            It remains to be seen how different the new Iran will be from the old Iran. The young folks appear to be mostly pro-West and pro-American, which is hopeful (for us in the US), but the values of a society change very slowly. For instance, we've been working on racial equality in the US for a couple hundred years now.
            • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

              Wed, June 24, 2009 - 11:55 AM
              However, war seems to be in our genes.
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              from the website of my college mentor:

              The statements on this Website are based on over 40 years of laboratory research on the evolution, brain mechanisms and dynamics of aggressive behavior in animals and humans. In the course of my research I had to change my guiding assumptions: at first I thought that aggression is a cause of the world's injustices; instead, I came to realize that the proper use of aggression in the form of righteous indignation is essential for peace activism and education.

              This book is a scientific rebuttal of those who claim that war is inherent in human nature. It provides extensive scientific evidence on the nature of the aggression systems which shows that war and other institutional behaviors have no direct genetic or neurophysiological basis.
              www.culture-of-peace.info/aggre...o.html

              I helped with the lab rat studies.

              I disagree that war is in our genes.

              love all-ways,
              mem
              • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                Wed, June 24, 2009 - 12:18 PM
                mem: "I disagree that war is in our genes."

                It was a figure of speech. My apologies for being misleading, or at least imprecise.

                How 'bout this instead: We are (collectively, not individually) psychologically predisposed to live in repeating generational cycles based on our collective childhood experiences, which shapes (or at least strongly influences) our attitudes, values, and behaviors and ultimately leads to a fairly predictable 80-or-so year cycle of major warfare, which has held true for most of recorded history or at least as far back as researchers have been interested in looking. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss_and_Howe
                • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                  Wed, June 24, 2009 - 2:26 PM
                  War isn't in our genes any more than rape is in our genes. These are bad habits that humanity is getting over. No excuses!

                  Another thing i've heard from iran is that women's voices actually predominate at demonstrations, and they seem more fearless when confronting the authorities. The iconic martyr for this is female ! I read an interesting piece today on the effect this is having on the rest of the islamic world, particularly the arabic world which feels somewhat in competition with the persians.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                    Wed, June 24, 2009 - 8:10 PM
                    Humans are getting over our bad habit of war? Oh wil, if I only had your optomistic streak! (sorry about the tv crack by the way, I haven't had one for a decade and a half, either).

                    There are 39 wars going on around the globe at this very minute. Well, maybe only 38 since Georgia/South Ossetia/Russia has concluded and this figure was from around that time. There are more internal and external "displaced" (LOVE that term) refugees worldwide than at any other time recorded in modern history. It may not be genetic but it certainly is one very well practiced habit and does not look to be going away any time soon.

                    Who was it that said they didn't know how WWIII was going to be fought, but they knew how WWIV would be; sticks and knives. Well, that's if there's anyone left at all. Of course that was said before what we now know about nuclear winter and what the planet will look like if the madmen running the world lose it completely and start slinging shit at one another. We all lose if that happens.

                    And honestly, as far as the Boomer generation stopping anything goes, can anybody list the complete inventory of invasions and incursions and assasinations and support for dictatorships since the end of the Southeast Asian "police action" that the USA has been involved in? Can we say non-stop military action in other places by this country?

                    Grenada, Honduras, Panama, Chile, El Salvador, Afghanistan and Iraq and now ya-hoo let's bomb the shit out of Pakistan while we're at it! Sheesh, how does one keep up? The US empire has continued to invade other countries or support the conservative dictators/madmen running other countries that would deal with our corporations before and since. Look at Burma/Myamar and the US oil companies still buying their goods; look at China and the almost total flight of our factories owned by US corporations to that dictatorship that runs over democratic protesters with tanks. Just how much of the crap in Walmart is made in China? Can we say ALL of it?

                    Hell, we've got over 700 military bases in other countries all over the globe fer crissakes! That doesn't bode well for becoming a peaceful species.

                    Anyone else here read Marine Brig. General Smedley Butler's 1935 book "War is a Racket?" Nice thin book which really allows one to get a handle on what went on before WWII. The most decorated soldier in US history ripped this country's military/industrial/banker/politician complex to shreds decades before Pres. Eisenhower coined that term. Then add in what we know has been going on since and it's one unbroken string of violence.

                    And honestly, the Boomer generation didn't do diddly squat in the long-term as a huge percentage of those anti-war protesters ended up working for the same damn corporations they were against in the 60s & early 70s. Got tired of being poor I guess...

                    disclosure: I'm a tail-end boomer and got my draft notice in '72 and had a Peace & Freedom Party activist for a stepmom. Still against all this shit spewing from our corporate-government...but then again I'm still poor, too, without that 3,500 sq ft house and BMW and golden parachute...

                    Let's see, at the moment we're blowing up Iraq stil, Afghanistan still, Pakistan, and rattling sabers at Iran. The fun never ends.
                    • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                      Wed, June 24, 2009 - 8:32 PM
                      im so glad to hear you guys killed your TVS.,its the only sure fire step in deprogramming and getting your mind back.,remarkable how many people with a really open attitude have shut thier TV off years ago---wars a rackett.,and we are the weapons of the war.,i really dont know what to do.,.,we are holding our 6 annual peace festival--ironic name because its an awareness event.,our lack of peace.,and the iraq war--year 6---how many more have to die--i have to stop~~~~i cry every time i think about it--how many more--?
                    • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                      Thu, June 25, 2009 - 7:09 AM
                      Here's that quote.

                      "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." --Albert Einstein

                      The boundaries leftover from colonialism do not conform to geographic or often demographic realities. The model of the nation state leaves a lot of stateless people who have had it pretty damn hard and they are at the base of almost all the wars. No justice, no peace. We are fast evolving a post national world, and at the same time nation states are proving totally inept and inadequate to the task of change and efficiency that the modern world demands.

                      Similarly women have been oppressed during the age of empires and now nation states and this is no longer cutting it with the distaff half of the the planet. Kinda hard to keep them foorbound or chardored after they've seen youtube. The oppression of women in arab, african, latin, and asian culture is much worse than the standard substandard standards they are hit with in the develped west. russia bad too. This is a tremendous revolution in the making that i think just fired it's first shot with the iranian green revolution. I think that green is going to grow. Always have liked that color, and all it stands for.
              • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                Wed, June 24, 2009 - 10:08 PM
                For another interesting rebuttal...to both the notion that war is inherent in humanity...and the notion that we all act primarily out of selfishness...I recommend this fascinating book:

                Manhood of Humanity
                by Alfred Korzybski

                I posted the introduction to my Facebook profile, here:
                www.facebook.com/profile.php
                • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                  Thu, June 25, 2009 - 5:58 AM
                  War is a small group of pissed of self involved Shepard's, leading complacent flocks ( with wool pulled over eyes) to the slaughter house.
                  Today's question is.... what is the exchange ratio of oil to mutton ?
                  It only takes a few people to start a war, and there always have been a few people willing to do so. And there will always be a few people willing to do so.
                  If 99% of humanity rejected war and violence.... then 1 % would rule the world. Always has been , always will be., only the weapons change.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                    Thu, June 25, 2009 - 11:04 AM
                    "If 99% of humanity rejected war and violence.... then 1 % would rule the world."

                    WHAT‽

                    That makes absolutely no sense at all!

                    If 99% of humanity rejected it, they'd have no bodies to fight their stupid wars. It is ONLY because a LARGE number can be suckered into fighting these battles...into supporting them financially...into supporting them verbally...that wars can continue. If 99% said no...the whole system would grind to a halt.
                    • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                      Thu, June 25, 2009 - 12:11 PM
                      If 99% said, " no we WONT fight, you or each other " and 1 % said , We WILL fight and control you "....... who do you think would win ?
                      There are apx. 6.75 billion people, 1 % = 67.5 Mill. That's 67,500,000 people with guns, bombs , etc, etc....make sense now ?
                      • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                        Thu, June 25, 2009 - 12:37 PM
                        If there were no laws against murder, rape, or arson and no police force, do you think there would be more of these?

                        If anywhere near 90% say no to war, it could easily be stopped. The u.s. has pretended to be a world police force, and done a really crappy job. We need a collective, rapid action force of elite corps of people from all over the planet. They should be very well trained in conflict resolution skills and language skills as well as martial arts. They should be so well respected and competent that shooting at them is absolutely not a good idea. This would allow nations to do away with most of military like costa rica has done, resulting in the huge savings of efficiency that our situation now absolutely demands. This on costa rican history from the wikipedia. Contrast it's modern history with other nations of the area.

                        "Again in 1948, José Figueres Ferrer led an armed uprising in the wake of a disputed presidential election. With more than 2,000 dead, the resulting 44-day Costa Rican Civil War was the bloodiest event in Costa Rica during the twentieth-century. Afterwards, the new, victorious government junta, led by the opposition, abolished the military and oversaw the drafting of a new constitution by a democratically-elected assembly. Having enacted these reforms, the regime finally relinquished its power on November 8, 1949, to the new democratic government. After the coup d'etat, Figueres became a national hero, winning the country's first democratic election under the new constitution in 1953. Since then, Costa Rica has held 12 presidential elections, the latest being in 2006. All of them have been widely regarded by the international community as peaceful, transparent, and relatively smooth transition."
                        • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                          Thu, June 25, 2009 - 2:09 PM
                          "If there were no laws against murder, rape, or arson and no police force, do you think there would be more of these? "

                          For a while, yes. Then after there was time for society to adjust to the new "lawless" situation...no...I think the rates would be the same or lower than they are now, and probably continue to fall over time, just as they have over the past few decades in the USA.

                          Crimes tend to be a function more of the conditions of society than the laws of society. When people live better, they commit less crimes. The solution is to raise the general standard of living of those at the bottom of society....

                          It would be much the same as with decriminalization of weed in parts of Europe. There was an initial rise in drug use and drug trade. Then, after a few years, it settled down. The transition had completed. And today...those nations have some of the lowest rates of weed use in the Western world. Good for them! Bad for us. Shame on us for locking up so many of our own citizens for victimless crimes....

                          But what do I know...I quit the 420. ;p
                      • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                        Thu, June 25, 2009 - 2:04 PM
                        Nope. Still does not make sense. When the 6 billion others of us say, "go home," the 67 million will have no choice.

                        It's history. Fact. Not fantasy.

                        See: India - Gandhi
                        See: USA - MLK

                        The 1% have NO POWER.

                        Their power is an illusion.

                        Those who believe in it - suffer from delusion.
                        • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                          Mon, June 29, 2009 - 2:19 PM
                          evan: "It's history. Fact. Not fantasy.
                          See: India - Gandhi
                          See: USA - MLK
                          The 1% have NO POWER.
                          Their power is an illusion."

                          Yeah, about that 1% in history... a few hundred years ago a small handfull of Spanish conquistadores managed to conquer most of South and Central America through intimidation and superior weaponry. Further north, the Native Americans in the US have continued to get the shaft throughout history long after they put down their weapons.

                          I don't understand how USA-MLK is analogous to an unarmed majority avoiding being controlled by an armed minority. I also think that much of what MLK worked towards was the fruition (crowning achievement, if you will) of changes that began largely because of an armed conflict a hundred years before (the American Civil War). I think that influencing a change in societal values is different from group A preventing group B from using force to controll group A without group A using (or threatening the use of) force themselves. What about it do you see as similar?

                          Also, India-Ghandi: Why did the British leave India?

                          If a man armed with a revolver walks into a bank filled with 99 unarmed people (no security guards), he usually walks out with the money. The 99 unarmed people can insist that he has no power over them, and indeed he only has the power to kill at most 6 of them. The survivors can easily overpower and subdue him. If they stand around long enough for the gunman to reload then eventually the gunman can wipe them all out. Ultimately, it's only the ability to inflict physical violence on the gunman that can completely stop him. Not everyone has to be willing to inflict physical violence, they just need to have people willing to inflict physical violence on their behalf.

                          The 1% has power because the 99% are afraid of the violence the 1% can inflict upon them. The 1% loses their power when they become afraid of the 99% and back down or when the 99% takes their 10-to-1 losses and wipes out the 1%.

                          I'm not saying this is the way things should be or the only way things can be, I'm just saying this is the way things are and I think it's highly unlikely we're going to get away from it anytime soon. It will require a major change in our collective values and our collective sense of vulnerability (i.e. giving up our attempts to be invulnerable).

                          I don't like the way things are.
                          • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                            Mon, June 29, 2009 - 10:23 PM
                            Well, Waylon, I have a different view than you and the other naysayers in this thread. I think you guys totally miss the point. And so does most of humanity. But they're waking up.

                            You're welcome to the view that the world is terminally fucked up. I won't be getting on that boat.

                            "I hope one day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - Lennon
                            • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                              Tue, June 30, 2009 - 8:41 AM
                              Evan: "You're welcome to the view that the world is terminally fucked up. I won't be getting on that boat."

                              No, not terminally f*cked up. It's fixable. I'm just saying it's going to take an enormous amount of effort for people to be willing to make the changes necessary. And right now, most people are not willing to work that hard. Heck, most folks aren't even willing to recycle. How do we change that?

                              I actually agree with you, I'm just not very Pollyanna-ish about it.

                              We desperately need to make those changes before we go extinct. If we don't change anything then we're just going to nuke ourselves into oblivion or else our population will exceed our ability to provide food and there will be mass starvation, pestilence, and death. That's the path we're headed towards. To chage that I think simply singing songs and hoping things will magically change isn't going to cut it.
                              • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                                Tue, June 30, 2009 - 11:33 AM
                                The end state is inevitable, in my thinking. There's nothing we can do to stop the total transformation of our species...which lies immediately ahead in our future. By "immediately" I mean within a century's time. The wave of human progress that has moved across this planet since the last ice age is unbroken, and it is now heading for shore. The wave will break when it hits shore, and the only thing we could do to stop it is to either wipe out 90% of us...or all of us. Nothing else can stop it.

                                Literally...nothing. Certainly not the 1%. They have no power. Their power is a mass delusion. Or, as Wilhelm Reich put it, The Mass Psychology of Fascism. It is a delusion. And the wave of progress will destroy that delusion...completely...utterly rend it to dust.

                                That may sound optimistic and utopian.

                                You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

                                History will validate me...and history will NOT absolve the politicians and other criminals...it will roll them under its wheels like the billions they sent to the slaughter. The time is near. I may not see it. The next generation will for sure.

                                Unless...an asteroid...a global thermonuclear war...a new ice age.... That's the kind of event it would take to stop it.
                                • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                                  Wed, July 1, 2009 - 5:59 AM
                                  Evan: "There's nothing we can do to stop the total transformation of our species...which lies immediately ahead in our future. "

                                  I'm interested in understanding your beliefs better, Evan. What do you think is the driving force behind this transformation?

                                  Evan: "That may sound optimistic and utopian."

                                  No, it sounds like a statement of faith, which strikes me as unusual coming from someone who is an atheist/agnostic (or at least I think I remember reading that somewhere? Correct me if I'm wrong.). What evidence do you see that leads you to this conclusion?

                                  My beliefs differ in that I don't see this as an "inevitable" outcome. I see it as an essential one, but the more likely outcome (without changing our ways) is extinction or a one way trip back to the neolithic age. Thus, a "total transformation" within a century's time is critical but I don't know if people will be able to change that much that quickly. We disagree in that I don't think this transformation will happen by itself, effortlessly.

                                  I'm not so worried about asteroids, supervolcanoes, or ice ages... it's the global thermonuclear war that frightens me. The next global war will most likely be a nuclear one where every nuclear weapon in the world would probably be used, since we've never yet built a weapon we didn't use. May folks say we would never use nukes, but if (for example) the US is losing a war with, say, China and there's a massivle, unstoppable Chinese invasion fleet sitting off the California coast, tell me we wouldn't try to take it out with a nuke. And vice versa. On a "positive note", there are about 10,000 nuclear weapons in the world, and the biggest ones only wipe out an area with a mile radius. Like a pinhole on the globe. So take 10,000 pins and stick them in a globe and you'll see that there will still be lots of unnuked land left for us to have a massive conventional war upon. It remains to be seen how bad fallout and nuclear winter would really be. I think we're dangerously close to that outcome, since we could easily be sucked into a war with China over Taiwan or get involved in a war between India and Pakistan.

                                  Of course, it's also possible that the "Singularity" (if it happens) could change all that in the next 20-30 years. In that case, all bets are off. There's no way to predict what that would be like.
                                  • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                                    Wed, July 1, 2009 - 7:29 AM
                                    "There's nothing we can do to stop the total transformation of our species...which lies immediately ahead in our future. "


                                    Leave out the words "total" and "immediately" and it is absolutely and incontrovertibly true.
                              • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                                Tue, June 30, 2009 - 11:35 AM
                                The changes you are talking about are attitudinal and not at all obvious. Bad as things are, and stupid and uninformed as our fellow citizens are, it is still way way better than it was in the 60's at the height of vietnam war. People question the govt a lot more now, believe it or not. Vienam and Iraq have given war a bad name. Bush didn't invent torture, but his high profile and moronic use of it has really gotten the world's attention and given that a bad name too.

                                What is going on in Iran is a deep change in the populations attitudes. The right wing mullahs have drawn a line in the sand with their backs to sea and the tide just starting to rise. They are history.

                                I think change is mostly a slow an organic process, one mind at a time.
                        • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                          Wed, July 1, 2009 - 8:07 AM
                          Nope. Still does not make sense. When the 6 billion others of us say, "go home," the 67 million will have no choice.

                          It's history. Fact. Not fantasy. <<<<<

                          Yes history...........I believe MLK, and Gandhi were both killed for their efforts....weren't they ?
                          India is now a nuclear power, poised for war with Pakistan. The US. wellll, what can you say about the good old USA ? We just started a couple of wars, and we've been under pressure to stop our own brand of imprisonment without judgment, and torture.

                          >>The 1% have NO POWER.

                          Their power is an illusion.

                          Those who believe in it - suffer from delusion. <<

                          The " 1%" run the world NOW, their bullets and bombs are not illusions. Their back room politics are not illusions. Their greed and lust for power are not illusions.
                          If the vast majority tell the armed, violent minority to " Go home", they get shot. The only way to stop the violent offenders from taking possession of your life and goods, is to fight them on their own terms, non violent resistance only works in small pockets of time , and is temporary. When have the bad guys ever gone away and stayed away, because any number of people told them to ??? What war was ever stopped because the masses said, " stop" ? ( We got out of Vietnam because the North kicked our ass, and threw us out )
                          And then when you fight aginest them, (go to war to stop the war) .....ops ! now you're one of the violent ones !
                          If you don't believe that 1% run the world, who do you think does ?? Who do we blame for this fucked up mess that has been going on for thousands of years ?
                          Thing are no different now that any point in history, we only have bigger ( better ??) weapons.
                          This life is a proving ground, an opportunity to learn, in preparation for our next life. We cannot " Fix" this world, because it was never meant to be fixed.
                          It the world were to converted into some kind of Utopia, then those who will follow us would not have the opportunities to learn as ( hopefully) we have, in preparation for the next life.
                          You can join hands, pray, and dance on mountain tops all you want, you can sit in silent protest by the millions. You and the other 6 B can take non action and yell over the sound of bombs to " go home !" You can hope that the 67M don't have 6B bullets. And in the end...things will be as they always have been. If things like that worked, they would have worked long ago.
                          There is ALWAYS Ying to Yang
                          "You cannot learn of the true nature of good, without knowing of evil"
                          • Yes...something like the Singularity.

                            And not as a matter of faith. The singularity is a matter of evolution. Science. You can plot it on graphs. It can be measured a number of ways. You can examine it from historical perspectives or psychological ones.... It does not matter, because they're all pointing to roughly the same thing in roughly the same time period...and that period is "now." And by "now" I mean this era of human history....this century. The twenty-first or twenty-second century.

                            Anyhow, I'm really done with this thread at this point. I see no reason to respond further to the pessimism I see in this thread. It just depresses me. I'll simply say that if you or anyone else thinks things are ultimately going down the crapper...I'm not so sure as you...in fact, I'm pretty sure they'll do just the opposite.

                            And I feel sad for anyone who has such a view. Too bad for you, I guess. Have fun with that, I guess.... I'll stick with my own beliefs. If you want to think the 1% will have dominion forever and ever amen...good luck with that. Enjoy it while it lasts, cause it won't last long.
                            • While it's entirely possible you won't bother reading this, and the technically correct thing to do would be to start a new thread, I'm interested in hearing more about what you think about the singularity.

                              Evan: "Yes...something like the Singularity. And not as a matter of faith."

                              By "faith" I meant "confident expectation about the future based on personal experiences."

                              I agree that we're definitately headed in that direction, but that worries me a bit, too. For those reading along who are't familiar with such things, the "singularity" refers to the point in time where "machines" finally become smarter than us. Computer power increases exponentially, and there will likely come a time when "machines" are able to improve upon themselves and design new, better versions on their own faster and better than a human can. If that happens it's rather hard to predict what the future would be like.

                              What concerns me is that humanity becomes almost irrelevant at that point, since the "machines" would be able to manage pretty much everything better than we can. I'm not all that worried about a "terminator" or "matrix" style future, since we humans haven't felt it necessary to wipe out dogs and cats even though they are less intelligent than us and aren't very useful.

                              Maybe this does need a new thread. Thoughts anyone?
                • Re: the OTHER news from Iran

                  Thu, June 25, 2009 - 11:32 AM
                  I'm a big fan of korzybski. This is from his wikipedia page:

                  "His system included modifying the way we approach the world, e.g., with an attitude of "I don't know; let's see," to better discover or reflect its realities as shown by modern science. One of these techniques involved becoming inwardly and outwardly quiet, an experience that he called, "silence on the objective levels"."

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