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Greetings to future members. I am Bob, aka Adastra, aka The Wizzard of Jacksonville.
I must begin by confessing that I believe in God---sort of. By that I mean that I have had conversations on many occasions with something that I choose to call "God." I don't believe those conversations prove anything objectively, since the experience is entirely subjective. I refer to this experience as being connected with God simply because my own studies of religion and spirituality convince me that the experience is the same as the one reported by ancient prophets who have heard "the voice of God," or seen visions sent by God. Let me be clear on this. I don't take this as proof of anything. It may well be (and probably is) that this is simply one part of my personal unconscious talking to my own conscious mind. If so, I have no quarrel with that opinion. But I do claim that this mental "voice" has invariably given me very good advice, including an alert to future events--several months in the future--that have been so helpful that if this isn't God, it will do until something better comes along.
I am, therefore, something of a Deist, but with a strong tendency toward what the churches would call "Christian atheism", or so it appears to me. I have no quarrel with the atheist perspective except to note that there are many things in the universe and in human life that cannot yet be explained by what we know now. The God term is a handy one for classifying such experiences until a rational explanation comes along.
And just to allay any fears, let me assure you that never has "God" directed me to do anything evil or immoral, like bombing a convention of neo-cons, for example. That has sometimes occurred to me as an idle fantasy, but I have never felt any urge to act on it. ;-) In fact, during one of those conversations I've had with G_d, I discussed this very issue and G_d assured me that whatever I did was my responsibility and I was never to act against my own ethical convictions, regardless of where the urge came from. So please don't consider me a danger to you, to myself or to any others.
Also, please don't tell me I must be insane since I hear voices in my head. That is a particularly annoying accusation, since we all hear voices in our heads; we call them "thoughts". It may be that some people do not "hear" their thoughts in the form of words, but I wonder, then how do they experience them. As pictures? As emotions? As colors? All these are possible, but I don't know anything about these other opitions. I only know that I experience my own thoughts as words in my mind and that some of those words are easy to recognize as they come from some source that is not under my conscious control, is always right in its predictions and always useful in its advice and never gives me evil guidance. The crazies are those who hear voices in their heads and can't tell them from actual voices heard in their ears. And I call it "God" as simply the best available term. Socrates claims to have experienced the same thing and called it his "daemon", a neutral term at that time in Greek, meaning simply "spirit." So I can easily use that term instead without needing to define it except as a subjective experience that I have found useful.
And, at the risk of running on far too long, let me add, that I despise religion as a human institution devoted to accumulating wealth and power that has nothing to do with the "spiritual" experience that I call "God" which is entirely a private matter between myself and me. Religion is all about the getting the butts in pews and the dollars in the collection plate every Sunday. Thank you for your kind attention. And I apologize for the length of this "introduction", but I wanted to be as clear as possible to begin with. Also I wanted to preempt the usual attacks from atheists who assume that anyone who finds any value in something they regard as nonsense must be an enemy of rational thought. If anyone has ever found any pleasure in reading "Alice in Wonderland" and being entertained by the spoofs of faulty reasoning Lewis Carroll offers, they should know better.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
I must begin by confessing that I believe in God---sort of. By that I mean that I have had conversations on many occasions with something that I choose to call "God." I don't believe those conversations prove anything objectively, since the experience is entirely subjective. I refer to this experience as being connected with God simply because my own studies of religion and spirituality convince me that the experience is the same as the one reported by ancient prophets who have heard "the voice of God," or seen visions sent by God. Let me be clear on this. I don't take this as proof of anything. It may well be (and probably is) that this is simply one part of my personal unconscious talking to my own conscious mind. If so, I have no quarrel with that opinion. But I do claim that this mental "voice" has invariably given me very good advice, including an alert to future events--several months in the future--that have been so helpful that if this isn't God, it will do until something better comes along.
I am, therefore, something of a Deist, but with a strong tendency toward what the churches would call "Christian atheism", or so it appears to me. I have no quarrel with the atheist perspective except to note that there are many things in the universe and in human life that cannot yet be explained by what we know now. The God term is a handy one for classifying such experiences until a rational explanation comes along.
And just to allay any fears, let me assure you that never has "God" directed me to do anything evil or immoral, like bombing a convention of neo-cons, for example. That has sometimes occurred to me as an idle fantasy, but I have never felt any urge to act on it. ;-) In fact, during one of those conversations I've had with G_d, I discussed this very issue and G_d assured me that whatever I did was my responsibility and I was never to act against my own ethical convictions, regardless of where the urge came from. So please don't consider me a danger to you, to myself or to any others.
Also, please don't tell me I must be insane since I hear voices in my head. That is a particularly annoying accusation, since we all hear voices in our heads; we call them "thoughts". It may be that some people do not "hear" their thoughts in the form of words, but I wonder, then how do they experience them. As pictures? As emotions? As colors? All these are possible, but I don't know anything about these other opitions. I only know that I experience my own thoughts as words in my mind and that some of those words are easy to recognize as they come from some source that is not under my conscious control, is always right in its predictions and always useful in its advice and never gives me evil guidance. The crazies are those who hear voices in their heads and can't tell them from actual voices heard in their ears. And I call it "God" as simply the best available term. Socrates claims to have experienced the same thing and called it his "daemon", a neutral term at that time in Greek, meaning simply "spirit." So I can easily use that term instead without needing to define it except as a subjective experience that I have found useful.
And, at the risk of running on far too long, let me add, that I despise religion as a human institution devoted to accumulating wealth and power that has nothing to do with the "spiritual" experience that I call "God" which is entirely a private matter between myself and me. Religion is all about the getting the butts in pews and the dollars in the collection plate every Sunday. Thank you for your kind attention. And I apologize for the length of this "introduction", but I wanted to be as clear as possible to begin with. Also I wanted to preempt the usual attacks from atheists who assume that anyone who finds any value in something they regard as nonsense must be an enemy of rational thought. If anyone has ever found any pleasure in reading "Alice in Wonderland" and being entertained by the spoofs of faulty reasoning Lewis Carroll offers, they should know better.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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Re: Introduction
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 1:17 PMI'm still feeling my way through the purpose of this particular tribe...though your post is making it more clear now. Insofar as my own views on religion, I don't believe in religion per se. I was raised in the Christian religion, but embrace a world-wide spectrum of faith in the absolute. In another tribe, I recently shared about a Polynesian trend that openly acknowledges that 'voice' in our conscience that tells us right from wrong, and directs us through life's muddles. The term, which has alluded me, is the important thing to remember here. Rather, it's more significant that the whole world over has agreed that our inner muse has wisdom to share with us all - regardless of our religious training or lack thereof. It is this gut or sixth sense that we should listen to more. Rooted in nature are most of our answers about this spirit-mind-body connection so largely ignored in American culture. I hope to discuss these things further here with all of you. -
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Re: Introduction
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 9:53 PM>>>The term, which has alluded me, is the important thing to remember here.<<<
Dear Trish,
If the friend who mentioned the term that has eluded you is from Hawai'i, then I believe the term would be either "unihipili" in reference to the unconscious mind or "aumakua", which refers to the voice of the Higher Self or the "trustworthy Father and Mother spirit." These terms are both derived from the teachings on Huna, the native Hawai'ian religion, which seems to make much more sense than the standard Western European faiths.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: Introduction
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 11:17 AMBob
<<<If the friend who mentioned the term that has eluded you is from Hawai'i, then I believe the term would be either "unihipili" in reference to the unconscious mind or "aumakua", >>>
This is one area of religion that I have never really looked at. It is interesting how people in different areas draw differing conclusions and ideas. It souds a little like the Wiccan dieties.
One thing that is consistant all over the world though is that whatever is being believed in is "supreme" or "higher" than the person or persons believing. I have often wondered why the entity or diety is not subserviant to us? Why are we not the supreme ones? I ponder this because if you look at how far mankind has come and the potential we have for the future, we are very amazing impressive creatures. I do not see why religions belittle the awesomeness of mankind to paint us as "sinful" and needing to be punished and all of that. I dont know if I am making my point right. But it is the aspect of "obedience" and how we are "less than" that I cant get my head wrapped around.
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Re: Introduction
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 4:40 PMAdam, I think religion has become a ground for belittling because the religion forming is trying to organize the masses. Back after Jesus' death, there were many sects forming, and one of them are starting to be heard again today. They were called the gnostics, which alludes to the enlighted thinkers, so to speak. These enlightened thinkers were suppressed by the new Christians as they roused too many questions, thus creating problems in getting groups to conform. Organization of the masses has always been the reason that religions become what they do...even if they start at an appropriate place. This is why, I believe, that Buddha promoted he was NOT god. Rather, he wanted to implement focus, and for the individual to aspire for that focus within. Without a dictator lording over, there was far more reason to follow this guideline.
Bob, on the Hawaiin term, I don't recognize that specifically. However, the person who shared it with me spoke it only, so who knows how it is appropriately spelled. But the ideas remain the same. As a friend shared, the whole world over knows right and wrong in their gut...even without one drop of religious training. That we have this instinctive knowledge, and so many choose to ignore it is what bothers me immensely. I think the greater problem is too many today won't take time to listen to their inner muse...which is the port of greater value to travel to for a daily vacation. -
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Re: Introduction
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 9:04 PM>>>the whole world over knows right and wrong in their gut...even without one drop of religious training.<<<
Forgive me, Trish, it may be different for you, but the voice that I attribute to "God" goes far beyond a mere intuitive knowledge of right and wrong. The processes of aculturation and socialization account for that quite sufficiently. I'm referring more to an inner voice that sometimes gives good advice, sometimes answers my questions and sometimes gives me accurate predictions of future events months before they occur. I can't control or command that inner voice; it comes to me when it chooses and often asks me difficult questions on ethical behavior, so it does enter into matters of conscience. It also asks me to think carefully about who I am, what I do and what I believe.
I have found that when I have to make a major decision, that inner voice will talk directly to me and say something like this. "Son, from this point there are three possible options in front of you. You can choose any of those three, but you must decide or submit the issue to blind chance. If you choose Option 1, the result will be Situation A. On the other hand, if you choose Option 2, that path will lead you to Situation B, And Option 3 will give you result C. Now you decide which way you'll go. . And by that time, it is obvious to me that only one of the three options will give the result I can feel comfortable with. So I have gotten used to discussing my problems and questions with that inner voice and have always benefitted from its guidance.
I don't know whether this is simply a natural process that will be studied and explained in the future by psychology or neurology or whether something more mystical is happening, but so far as I am concerned, it will do for a God until something even better comes along.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: Introduction
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 3:57 PMBob,
You really ought to read Rudolph Steiner. He founded a movement back before WWI, and its shrouded in mysticism. He was very much considered a genius and a deep thinker. Thing is, his movement conflicted with what the Nazis were preaching and they did all they could to subdue his talks. I gathered that Steiner was getting older at this time, and figured it wiser to move out of site, given the Nazis' occupation. Had this time in history not been in sync with his lifetime, he might have become more known world-wide. Some groups of deep thinkers and other sects are trying to revitalize his teachings today. Amazon has his stuff, if you're interested.
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Further Introduction
Tue, November 10, 2009 - 10:22 PMDear Trish,
As a matter of fact, I am also a modern Gnostic of the Thelemic variety. In fact, I am an ordained Gnostic priest. I consider this faith an addition to my rather tentative Christianity. And in Thelema, I am happy to report, there is no required doctrine that must be followed and spread to others. The only thing that is required to be a Thelemite is to accept The Book of the Law, as inspired scripture and then interpret its teachings for yourself. This strikes me as a lot more sane and friendly than most religions, with the possible exception of Buddhism, which is more a philosophy than a religion anyway in its original form as taught by Gautama, the Enlightened One.
And Adam, I have always felt that "God" was there to solve problems and deal with difficulties, so in that sense at least, I find God is somewhat like a very capable and caring servant. Not to diminish the stature of whatever god anyone might follow, but if my God were not useful to me. i would have nothing more to do with Him. Whoever He is, He cares, which is all I really need.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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Re: Introduction
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 10:31 AMTrish
<<<Adam, I think religion has become a ground for belittling because the religion forming is trying to organize the masses. Back after Jesus' death, there were many sects forming, and one of them are starting to be heard again today.>>>
I have been guilty of that belittlement as some seek to assert they are somehow "above" or "better than" or "more intelligent than" I am because they see me as a "sinner" or some kind of malcontent. This happens a lot online because many people develop a very brave persona as it is safe for them to confront people in cyberspace. When I step up to put them in their place, the emotional blackmail begins where I am acused of hate and anger and all of that garbage that doesent exist. I wish they would all watch this video
www.youtube.com/watch
Then provide the solid logic that it takes to be an authority over me or anyone else. When someone tells me I am bad, I am wrong, or that people like me are wrong, it is incumbant upon them to provide proof as to why that is so. It's kind of like the ruler of Iran. One group says this man is the ruler while another group says another man is supposed to rule. But the vote was corrupted by extremists and there's no proof of either claim. So when someone says "The ruler of Iran says...", is it absolute or are there still many questions lacking answers? The logical thing to do is to go back and establish the truth and work from there instead of relying on biased corrupted and oppressed hearsay. The same goes for religion. A claim has been asserted, so before enforcing it over anyone and teaching it to children, it is incumbant upon the supporters of said claim to evidence truth and fact. The ancient texts and hearsay do not cut it as there's too much evidence of corruption, bias, mistranslations, rewritten mistakes and just too much room for error overall. Especially when the entity somehow still chooses to remain elusive, invisible, and mysteriously detached from the majority of mankind.
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Re: Introduction
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 12:17 PM>>>some seek to assert they are somehow "above" or "better than" or "more intelligent than" I am because they see me as a "sinner" or some kind of malcontent.<<<
Part of the problem is that most people do not know what the word "sinner" means. The Christianoids consider the word to mean that someone (else) is wicked, evil, depraved and morally dead. No such thing. The word "sin" the translation of a Hebrew word meaning "to miss the target." It is a term that was used in archery when some archer missed the bullseye. "Sin" is also used to translate the Greek word, "hamartia" which also means "to miss the target." It is also a term from archery, in Greek as in Hebrew. In English, the word "sin" means "to miss the target." It used to be a term used in archery before the Christianoids gave it a totally new and degraded meaning. Yes, the KJV translators managed to get one word completely right. Try not to faint.
This means that "sinner" is not a term of abuse. It simply means that we don't always succeed in everything we attempt. This is nothing to be ashamed of or to use as a verbal club with which to beat others. Does a student learning archery expect to hit the bullseye on his very first try? If so, he is sadly deceived. How well would we learn any difficult skill or art if we stopped at the first attempt and gave up on the activity entirely? If a beginner's first shot misses the target completely, should he break his bow, burn his arrows and swear that he's giving up on archery because he can see he'll never be any good at it. What good does that do? Doesn't it take lots of practice and hard work to develop any skill more complicated than breathing. (Come to think of it, there are people who put in a lot of work on developing their breathing skills; they are called "yogis").
So it is not an insult to call anyone a "sinner" in the original sense of the word. It doesn't make anyone better than anyone else. In fact, the apostle Paul says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." So next time some obnoxious Christianoid calls you a sinner, remind him that according to the Bible, we are all sinners. So he is too, unless he wants to give up his Bible. All the word means is that we need more practice at what we are trying to do; it was never meant to be a reproach but an admission that none of us are perfect. Here I am using "perfect" in the modern sense of "flawless." The original meaning in the Bible of "perfect" meant "complete" or "adult". In genuine Christianity one becomes "complete" by gaining the spiritual dimension, which Adam and Eve forfeited when they listened to the serpent in the myth of the garden. And one becomes "adult" by taking responsibility for oneself.
It is remarkable how thoroughly the Christianoids have corrupted the language over the last two thousand years, but we needn't feel threatened by their ignorance. When one approaches us, we have only to place our hand firmly on our wallet and walk away, quickly but with dignity.
The meaning of the word "gnostic" (also from Greek) is "knowledge", but here the precise meaning is "knowledge gained by direct experience" as opposed to "knowledge gained from hearing about something." To a gnostic, the only way truly to know God is by direct experience of God, not by listening to some preacher tell you what to believe. We find this direct experience in prayer, in meditation, in study that relates our experience to knowledge from books or classes, though the knowledge gained from experience always is primary. No dogma, no doctrine even, just experience of life and of dealing with this often mysterious universe in which we somehow find ourselves. It takes genuine effort, not simply idle approval of a philosophy developed by someone else. As Sartre pointed out, the problem facing modern man is that of "authenticity", of having beliefs, opinions, attitudes that emerge from who each of us is as an individual, not adopted from someone else whom we admire, but from within ourselves. I am convinced that I can be myself much more effectively than I can copy someone else. And there I'll leave it.
To me, "malcontent" is high praise, since it implies someone who is fed up with all the crap people spread around to account for the way their life sucks.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: Introduction
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:07 PMBob
>>>some seek to assert they are somehow "above" or "better than" or "more intelligent than" I am because they see me as a "sinner" or some kind of malcontent.<<<
Part of the problem is that most people do not know what the word "sinner" means. The Christianoids consider the word to mean that someone (else) is wicked, evil, depraved and morally dead. No such thing. The word "sin" the translation of a Hebrew word meaning "to miss the target." It is a term that was used in archery when some archer missed the bullseye. "Sin" is also used to translate the Greek word, "hamartia" which also means "to miss the target." It is also a term from archery, in Greek as in Hebrew. In English, the word "sin" means "to miss the target." It used to be a term used in archery before the Christianoids gave it a totally new and degraded meaning. Yes, the KJV translators managed to get one word completely right. Try not to faint. >>>
This is a very good start to this tribe and I thank you. I had always heard it as "miss the mark". I would not mind constructive criticism if it were not done from a point of some percieved authority based on rules supposedly laid down by something yet to be known for certain to exist. I have ideas that neutrinos have something to do with what we percieve to be telepathy, but they are yet to be proven and I wouldnt dare teach it to children or tell someone else they were wrong based on my ideas. As there are no solid instruction manuals for life, it is logical that it is going to be hit and miss. One of the major problems I have with religions has to do with exactly what it is they claim I am missing. To point at me and say I am somehow "bad" or "less than" because I do not believe and follow an entity or what that entity "inspired" someone to write is absurd and it promotes conflict.
Bob I would be SO HAPPY to just turn and walk away from these people. But the ones insisting that I am wrong and bad for not believing as they do are the same people who are getting into my government and making laws that govern me and mine like;
Texas Penal Code 2008
Title 5
Sec. 21.06. HOMOSEXUAL CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he engages in deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
www.chick.com/bc/2003/sodomy.asp
I would be glad to just walk away like I would if a person said I was bad for liking spinach just because they do not. It is no longer that simple. The reaches of religion have transcended "just believing". They are reaching into governing based on their beliefs. The Muslim terrorists being a very real extreme version of this. President Obama said "No loving god would do this...yada yada", but I see that as equally as insane because HOW DOES HE KNOW? He cant! It is all speculation and fallacy based on fundamentally flawed logic and hearsay. NOBODY knows what is in the hidden cube...
<<<So it is not an insult to call anyone a "sinner" in the original sense of the word. It doesn't make anyone better than anyone else. In fact, the apostle Paul says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." So next time some obnoxious Christianoid calls you a sinner, remind him that according to the Bible, we are all sinners. So he is too, unless he wants to give up his Bible. All the word means is that we need more practice at what we are trying to do; it was never meant to be a reproach but an admission that none of us are perfect. Here I am using "perfect" in the modern sense of "flawless." The original meaning in the Bible of "perfect" meant "complete" or "adult". In genuine Christianity one becomes "complete" by gaining the spiritual dimension, which Adam and Eve forfeited when they listened to the serpent in the myth of the garden. And one becomes "adult" by taking responsibility for oneself.>>>
I have reminded the Christians over and over that they are in direct violation of that in which they claim to believe. But they continue and ask me why I am quoting something I do not believe. It is an exercise in futility. I totally agree with you that growth is something we are all striving for and that none is above the other in that respect. But then there's "casting pearls before swine". I get that a great deal of the time too when I redress selfrighteousness. I consider logical truth a grand pearl of wisdom, but I do not see those unaccepting of it SWINE or "less than". This is one of the things in the Bible I find promotes those who believe being somehow better than the "swine" who do not believe.
<<<The meaning of the word "gnostic" (also from Greek) is "knowledge", but here the precise meaning is "knowledge gained by direct experience" as opposed to "knowledge gained from hearing about something." To a gnostic, the only way truly to know God is by direct experience of God, not by listening to some preacher tell you what to believe. We find this direct experience in prayer, in meditation, in study that relates our experience to knowledge from books or classes, though the knowledge gained from experience always is primary. No dogma, no doctrine even, just experience of life and of dealing with this often mysterious universe in which we somehow find ourselves. It takes genuine effort, not simply idle approval of a philosophy developed by someone else. As Sartre pointed out, the problem facing modern man is that of "authenticity", of having beliefs, opinions, attitudes that emerge from who each of us is as an individual, not adopted from someone else whom we admire, but from within ourselves. I am convinced that I can be myself much more effectively than I can copy someone else. And there I'll leave it.>>>
I can not possibly object to personal experience. In fact, all I can do is relate my own and ask questions to gain insight. Bob I ask this in total sincerity, as you believe you have had interaction with GOD, how many exchanges have you had with Satan? Because to my knowledge, Satan is in hot persuit of those who truely believe in GOD and have a relationship with him. How many times has Satan spoke to you, what did he say, and does he or GOD have an accent? I realize GOD is supposed to come to people in a form they can understand, but human understanding has reached new heights since those old words were written. We understand people like Arnold Schwarzenegger. So concievably GOD could "speak" with an accent. Did he speak in parables, did he use expletives, did he have an expanded vocabulary? I do have doubts, but to assert them is not what I intended this forum to accomplish. I want insight and answers along with logic and truth as maybe it will lead to mutual understanding.
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Re: Introduction
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 12:13 PM>>>I had always heard it as "miss the mark".<<<
Yes, that is the more traditional translation. I use "target" simply because it is the more modern term and less likely to be misunderstood by modern eyes and ears. ;-)
>>>I would not mind constructive criticism if it were not done from a point of some percieved authority based on rules supposedly laid down by something yet to be known for certain to exist.<<<
Agreed. From my point of view, I know that it exists via the gnosis; I'm just not sure what it is. Perhaps three hundred years from now, neurology will find an explanation of that inner voice that some of us hear. Until then, I choose to use the term "god" since it seems to me that this same phenomenon is what the prophets of ancient times referred to as "the voice of god". I doubt that they had the technological background to be able to account for it in any terms other than those of a Bronze Age culture, so I use the same expression advisedly, without committing to the entire mythology. But then, I also believe that the myths of old were attempts to account for observed events by people who had little knowledge of either science, logic or philosophy. And I note that even then, wise men fell back on the position of "I can't explain it, but I know it happened." Socrates spoke of a "spirit" that spoke to him in his mind and gave him good advice. He had no other way to explain it and I don't either. I can only protest that I use the traditional language in a new sense without accepting the mythology that inspired it. They come face to face that they are not as superior as they think and run from that shocking fact.
>>>they continue and ask me why I am quoting something I do not believe.<<<
For me, it;s not a question of whether I believe it, but that they are citing "evidence" from an ancient book that they have not bothered to study and understand. They usually object that they have studied the book and know what it says, but I can't help noticing that they are unable to prove that they understand it. Of course, it doesn't matter to them; they simply stop listening to anything they say, but then they usually go away on their own.
Of course, I have an advantage in that I have really studied the Book and I usually know more than they do about it. They tend to get really angry when I point out that the Bible says that human life begins at birth with the first breath and that the Bible does not even mention "abortion". They start spouting every obscure verse they can think of to "prove" that I'm wrong, but when I hand them a Bible and challenge them to show me one use of the word abortion, they retreat. All I'm really asking of them is that they be consistent in their claims. They claim to study the Bible fervently, but they can't point to a single verse that truly supports the things they believe, whereas I can point to at least one verse that directly contradicts their claims. The "divinity" of Christ,? Directly contradicted by the man himself in John 17:3. Abortion is murder; refuted by Gen. 2:7. The literal truth of every word in the Bible? Directly contradicted by Paul in 2Cor. 3:6. And again by Yeshua in his frequent statements of "Behold, I tell you a parable." A parable, by definition, is not literally true.
You are welcome to check my citations if you choose, but since you already don't believe this nonsense and aren't interested in what the Bible has to say on such things, I won't insist. I can only say that once I started reading the Bible for myself, I noticed that it made more sense (to me) than I had been led to believe and decided to study it in depth. And the more I studied, the more I realized that most of what I had been taught about it was bullshit. At that point, I became very concerned with trying to explain to people who claimed to believe the Bible that they have failed to understand it and were spreading a pack of lies about its teachings. So they told me I was going to their nonexistent "hell". And I have tried to explain to people who reject the Bible that they shouldn't listen to the Christianoids, since the crap they teach is not found in the Bible. And mostly, they try to tell me I'm insane or ignorant or that I must believe in the divinity of Christ because that's what Christians believe. Sorry, that's what Christianoids believe. It's not what the Bible says.
I'm sick of being told that I'm either insane or a liar simply because thousands of professional liars got there first with their own version. People forget that those who "explain" the Bible to them are professional propagandists for their particular church and that their incomes depend on teaching what their church tells them to teach. I'm sure that many preachers sincerely believe what they teach, but that's because they have been equally brainwashed all their lives. They simply lack to honesty to think for themselves and accept what their employer tells them is "unquestioably true." Nonsense! There is no truth that cannot be questioned or should not be questioned. Any reference to absolute truth should be considered figurative language. It doesn't exist. That's the bedrock on which my faith is based and I have found it solid ground for genuine thought.
And that's my two cents.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Introduction
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 1:05 AMBob
<<<You are welcome to check my citations if you choose, but since you already don't believe this nonsense and aren't interested in what the Bible has to say on such things, I won't insist. I can only say that once I started reading the Bible for myself, I noticed that it made more sense (to me) than I had been led to believe and decided to study it in depth. And the more I studied, the more I realized that most of what I had been taught about it was bullshit.>>>
This is a weird subject for me because I feel that I have to maintain a position against the Bible in Christian circles or otherwise they get the idea that they are somehow making progress in my conversion to their truths. I dont know if that makes sense or not, but I do have mixed emotions about what is written. I find that it has great moral and ethical lessons. But I believe these things came from the hearts of MAN and not a great omnipotent creator. The "spiritual" claims and the morbid violence in the OT are also constructs of MAN in my opinion and those things I feel serve to teach some ugly lessons on a subconcious level.
An example of bad things that can come of those awful things is the idea that God would somehow be pleased or on your side in killing someone defending your faith or beliefs. That is extreme, but how many extremists do we see these days? Like the Christian Identity, an extremist sect whose primary belief is that white people are God's chosen people, and everyone else is doomed to an eternity in Hell. Christian Identity also preaches the evils of homosexuality, prostitution, abortion and general sexual unseemliness of all sorts. The one that comes to mind besides Timothy McVeigh is Eric Rudolph who bombed abortion clinics and a gay club, olympic park and other attempts. Then there's the "Army Of God" that bombs abortion clinics.
I have been told "You cant blame the Bible" for these extremists. You cant blame a gun for killing people either, but we still have gun control. I think there should be an extreme penalty for distorting religion in a fashion that causes harm.
I do not mind discussing the Bible and I do not doubt your citations at all. There are parts I cant seem to get over as they appear to be blatent lies to me though. I am told they are just different accounts of the same story, but I just can not see that. When I read the four different accounts of Jesus' resurrection I see four people describing it as firsthand eyewitness acoounts with totally different events and facts. And this leads me to doubt other things that are written. The good moral ideas are great. I just cant find reason to believe all of it.
<<<Agreed. From my point of view, I know that it exists via the gnosis; I'm just not sure what it is. Perhaps three hundred years from now, neurology will find an explanation of that inner voice that some of us hear.>>>
I have that inner voice. My brother, sister and mother have it too. We call it "shine". Because it borders on psychic. We know things that seem to be beyond other peoples comprehension. But I know mine to be formed from my own logic and ideas. I pay attention to things in depth and as I was taught to read from the encyclopedia at the age of two, I have gained knowledge over my lifetime that is massive but not specific enough to quote. I KNOW THINGZ Bob.Ha!Ha! I can not ascribe my "shine" to God though. It is a wonderful part of ME. I believe it is a subconcious part of my brain that stores certain information that has to do with right, wrong, danger, human behaviors and analytical algorythms of events and outcomes throughout my life. There's probably much much more to it than just those things, but it has served to allow me to do some amazing things. It is hard to explain, but it has come to me without religion. In fact it is what showed me the clues that Christianity was full of what I call crap.
<<<There is no truth that cannot be questioned or should not be questioned. Any reference to absolute truth should be considered figurative language. It doesn't exist. That's the bedrock on which my faith is based and I have found it solid ground for genuine thought.>>>
EXACTLY! I have faith in myself and what lies within mankind. The ancient spiritual stuff is all just interesting history to me. I find different truths to be self evident than the truths purported through religion regarding spiritual matters. And I question those truths in search of understanding how and why they were arrived at.
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Re: Introduction
Fri, November 13, 2009 - 10:02 AM>>>I feel that I have to maintain a position against the Bible in Christian circles or otherwise they get the idea that they are somehow making progress in my conversion to their truths.<<<
Exactly. And the "truths" they push are merely lies that they have been trained to mistake for truth. To be honest, one of the reasons I continue to call myself "Christian" is that I worry that forsaking that label would let the Christianoids win by default. I remember a conversation I had with God once on that subject. I had asked him if there wasn't something I could call myself something other than "Christian" in view of the morons who had pre-empted that label with their moronic dogma. "Sorry, son," he told me, "I'm stuck with it; you're stuck with it."
So I thought that over for a few days, then went back to him and asked, "Okay, how about I call myself 'Christian' and call them "Christianoids"?"
And he answered, "Okay, that works for me." So I feel that I have Divine Authority (whatever that might be) to call myself "Christiian" and those idiots "Christianoids".
It is never a good idea to give the dummies the impression that they are making progress toward "saving" you. It is better to avoid talking to them at all. It is relatively easy if you come up with some stock answers to their questions and propaganda. Not long ago, I heard a knock on my door. When I opened it and peeked out , there were a couple of perky young women at my door. They wanted to invite me to visit their church and they wanted to tell me how to be saved. "Thanks," I said, "I appreciate your kindness. I have already been saved, thank you. And I can't invite you in, as I am not dressed yet." They wished me a good day and left. I suspect it was the fact that I was still in my underwear that convinced them to depart, although I was simply peeking around the partly opened door, so they didn't see how I was dressed (undressed).
And once a brother of my Lodge told me how he handled the dopes. He has a clear view from his front window, so he can see the Mormons or the Witnesses coming from a couple blocks away. When he sees them working their way up the street toward his door, he throws on his ceremonial robes from the Lodge, takes his staff in hand, throws on some strange-looking pendants and greets them at the door iwith his shaved head, dressed in this weird-looking outfit, knowing they'll be terrified by anything they don't understand.
"Oh, please come in," he growls in a gutteral rasp. "You're just in time for the sacrifice." He says they always leave promptly and NEVER COME BACK. What more could one ask? Thanks, Bill.
You just have to find ways to dodge the Jesus shouters, that will send them away instead of encouraging them to try harder.
>>>I think there should be an extreme penalty for distorting religion in a fashion that causes harm.<<<
There already is a penalty. It is called living in a dream world, out of contact with reality. This can be fun at times as a fantasy, a deliberate game to escape reality for a few minutes, but what they have done is to crawl into a hole and pull it in after them. They tell themselves they are blessed and joyful, but they are really self-cursed, self-deluded and living in fear of reality. I pity the fools.
And you can't blame the Bible for these pitiable creatures since they are not using the Bible as it was intended to be used. Their idea of the Bible is a horrid distortion of what is printed on the pages, as I have proven to myself again and again. They read a book that mentions "heaven" over seven hundred times and "hell" a grand total of 54 times in all, and then will tell you that what they see is that it's all about avoiding hell. All they find in the Bible is hell. They fear hell and worship Satan, although they would be shocked and furious if you told them that.
My little sister, Kathy, (who has been brainwashed by her church) once told me, "Bob, Jesus had a lot more to say about hell than about heaven." So, I went to the Gospel according to Matthew and counted, using only the texts in red letters that are supposed to be the actual words of Jesus. In that Gospel, Jesus refers to heaven or "the heavens" a total of 63 times. That means that in one book he says more about heaven than the ENTIRE Bible has to say about hell! It is pitiful. And I'm certain that she was only repeating what she had heard from some hell-worshiping preacher who hadn't bothered to do a word count either. It's hopeless to expect any scholarship, any attention to the text, even any common sense from these dupes. Kathy more recently called my counting of the words a "stunt." So even facts aren't going to convince her. Her "faith" in hell is too strong.
>>>We call it "shine".<<<
And Stephen King calls it "the shining" as you probably know. And one of the most ancient concepts of the gods is revealed by a common term from those times, "the shining ones" ("devas" from a term for "to shine"). So that is part of why I continue to call it "the voice of God", even though I have personal reservations about the term and am convinced that the phenomenon is probably a peculiarity of human neural wiring. And it helps when I study ancient writings on the experience that I am familiar with the common terms used, though I feel no obligation to understand those terms in the same way as the original writers did. It helps to know what an old source means by the terms he uses, though we have several thousand years of scientific study to draw on that the ancients lacked.
I once had an odd experience on that score though. I was having lunch with my father. He had called to give me some good news and remarked that I must be surprised to hear it. So without stopping to think, I had said, "No, actually I was told to expect this about now." He asked who had told me and, feeling a bit uncomfortable with the topic, I had told him that I didn't want to go into it on the phone. So he suggested we meet for lunch the next week.
As we enjoyed lunch, Dad asked me what I had meant about having been told to expect this surprising good news. So I fudged (this was my father, after all) and said, "Well, I heard that from. . .uh,. . .from a 'spiritual source'."
"You mean from some kind of psychic?" he asked.
"No, from. . .well. . .from God."
And then I felt a real pride in my father, when he asked a really intelligent question, "What do you mean by 'God"?" he wanted to know.
"I mean that little voice in the back of my head that tells me things I would otherwise have no way of knowing," I replied.
To which he said, "Oh, Him. Well, why didn't you just say so?"
"Dad? You too?"
"Yes, of course," he said, "but he's never told me anything about the future before."
"Have you asked?"
"Well. . .no, . . .hmm. . ..but maybe I should."
(My God, this insanity must be hereditary!)
And I'll leave it at that for now.
With love under will,
Bob, Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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