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Okay, the family with whom my wife and I are staying has a group of profoundly Protestant relatives coming into town for a wedding next week, and I am just about certain I'm going to need footnotes in the course of the all-but-inevitable discussion. I believe it was on this list that someone cited the originator of this fallacy. (As I recall, an early-20th century Protestant agitator.)
History snobs? Please remind me. Otherwise I'm liable to start clicking my heels together and muttering "There's no place like Rome. There's no place like Rome. There's no place like Rome."
And while that might satisfy my sense of cosmic irony, it wouldn't really enlighten anybody.
History snobs? Please remind me. Otherwise I'm liable to start clicking my heels together and muttering "There's no place like Rome. There's no place like Rome. There's no place like Rome."
And while that might satisfy my sense of cosmic irony, it wouldn't really enlighten anybody.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 2:37 AMHa-ha! right next to your post on Tribe was this:
Bible Conference
Calvinism: "The First 500 Years" Sacramento, October 24, 9:15 AM
www.covenantreformedchurch.org -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 7:14 AMOkay, but I'm pretty sure we're not among the elect. -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 3:36 PMHeh, I'm not sure The Elect are the company I want to keep for eternity in any case. :)
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 8:07 PMHere is the conundrum (says a catholich with "christian" friends who were surprised to find out catholics were christian).
Evangelical christianity defines a christian as one with a personal relationship withe Jesus Christ. For many, that means adult baptism and/or some form of emotional denoument including giving oneself to JC.
Since Roman Catholics are usually baptized at birth and because much of our public worship is ritualized (and yes some of the private worship is ritualized too but not all I assure you) evangelical christians really believe Roman Catholic (and Orthodox) Christians, well, aren't really Christian.
Please note that I have friends who have changed their opinion....at least on a case by case business. They may not assume all catholics or orthodox are Christian they remain open to the idea that some are. However, I must warn you, in general that is not the norm. Good luck and blessing Gereg.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 5:17 PMIronically, the anniversary of the Wittenberg nailing is coming up (October 31st). This has roots deep within the Augsburg Confessions, the reformation, counter reformation et al ad nauseum. Luther's contention that the prophesied Antichrist was the office of the papacy and the differentiation between the "direct" prayer and "intercessory" prayer and a whoooooole lot to do with transubstantiation and Biblical translation Historical-Critical, Sola Scriptura... but even that's too late in Christian history to start pointing fingers and laying blame for the seemingly schismatic nature of belief itself.
Being raised a Lutheran, I've had many a Catholic finger aimed my direction with a derisive comment and many a Protestant finger aimed likewise from the other direction with many a comment along the lines of "Catholic Light". In every major religion there are so many factions, denominations and interwoven philosophies each pointing to themselves and saying "We're the one true_____ and everyone else is a poseur" until one is inclined to write it off as endemic to the human condition.
Any way you cut it, this is a thick and messy stew of violence and internecine rivalry between factions of Christianity that is too thick to really pick the threads apart. And much though we tend to think it began with a German monk nailing 95 complaints to a church door, it's been going on for far longer than that. I'd say that Christianity has been fracturing and one faction pointing at another since long before the reformation though. For two thousand years guys like Saint Athanasius and Arius were pointing at one another and saying "That guy's not a Christian because I say so and here's why..."
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:18 PM
Hey Gereg,
You'll have to get in touch with Roxanne she's the one who made the posting. All I can remember is that it was a woman evangelical from the early 20thC here in the U.S. of the whole crapola that Catholics are not Christians.
I can't remember her name but, here in the Oakland Museum they have her bible, dresses, and other historical artifacts and information about her and her ministry.
You can remind your family also of the fact that before the Reformation just about everyone in Europe was Catholic, except for those Cathars and a few others ya know. -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 12:29 AMAmy Semple McPherson? (not sure about spelling) -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 8:16 AMScott - while the phenomenon you cite is valid, I don't think even the Irish Greens and Oranges (to use a modern example) deny that the other side is composed of Christians - misguided/black-hearted/heretical/what-have-you Christians, followers of false doctrine, etc., but still essentially Christian. I believe Sharon is right in citing Aimee Semple McPherson (thanks, Sharon) as the originatrix of this particular line of thinking. Luther didn't claim the Romans weren't Christians, as I recall - just that they'd led the faith away from the truth. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the European Reformation was characterised by Protestants claiming that Roman Catholicism wasn't Christian: rather, that it was a false doctrine of Christianity: and I believe the same goes for the other arguments that you mention. Oh, for purposes of rhetoric, I'm sure someone now and then claimed his opponents were no Christians - but only as a figure of speech. When the Church burned people, it was usually on charges of heresy - which by definition means that they were of the same basic faith. This idea that "Catholic" and "Christian" and mutually exclusive by basic definition is a strictly American, and of fairly recent vintage.
And my thanks to Sharon once again for jogging my memory. The rest of McPherson's legacy ought to have cast doubt on this piece of logic, but faith and logic don't keep company all that often.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 8:23 AM
I think thats her. She wrote about it in one of her books. -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 8:58 AMOddly, when I went to check on that, the only McPherson reference Google offers on the subject is quite different from that: "...we're all Catholics, aren't we? We're Protestant Catholics, whether we're from Methodist or Baptist or what." That quote, from a sermon she delivered on the air, turns up in several places.
Not very articulate, but a far cry from what I anticipated.
Not to say that she didn't write something quite other in some other place.
I've got a note in to Roxanne, but I don't know if she's still very active on Tribe (nor, for that matter, am I). -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 10:38 AMRoxanne just eloped - I have a feeling she's busy. -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 3:42 PMEloped!? -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 3:46 PMThat's what she said on FB. -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 5:43 PMThat would keep one busy, all right. Amusing that this comes up for me on account of relatives coming into town for a wedding. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 5:46 PM*Heh, I'm not sure The Elect are the company I want to keep for eternity in any case. :) *
Of course you realise, Maggie, that you were predestined to say that.
You preterite girl, you.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 6:15 PMYeah, they eloped and got married finally (bout damn time) they were at faire on Sunday... she showed off her beautiful ring.
very happy for them.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 6:54 PMAh, she's not on my FB friends list, so I missed it. Well good for her!
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 10:38 AM
I've been looking and cannot find a quote at this time either. But, she was associated for quite some time with the Los Angeles KKK who during the time had added anti-catholicism and anti-semitism to their repertoire. Could have occured during that phase of her ministry <shrug>
Roxanne's on she is just offline for a few days.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 2:20 PMSorry, I have been gone for a few days. Yes, Maurice and I eloped on Saturday (YAY!!!) So here is the answer to your question:
"The Great Controversy" (1888) by Ellen G. White was a book, and subsequent pamphlet (1924) was published by the Seventh Day Adventist church in which is declared among other things that Catholics are not permitted to read the bible, and they are not Christians , they are actually The Anti Christ . Here are some other assertions in the publication:
(a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; (b) the pope is the Antichrist; (c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast"; (d) there is a future millennium in which the devil will roam the earth while Christians are with Christ in heaven; (e) the soul sleeps between death and resurrection; and (f) on the last day, after a limited period of punishment in hell, the wicked will be annihilated and cease to exist rather than be eternally damned
Although Ms. White's assertions that Catholics were not permitted to read the bible, or that they were not Christians was a new idea that became popular doctrine ampng Protestant churches. The idea that the the Pope was the Anti-Christ is not new. For example:
"This teaching shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God. This is, properly speaking to exalt himself above all that is called God as Paul says, - 2 Thess. 2, 4." Martin Luther
However, many early Protestants still considered themselves Catholics with objections, and that their Catholic brothers and sisters were individuals to be judged and that are just "misled" by the Pope. But the anti -Catholic hit fever pitch with Ellen White who claimed that she received her writings through the gift of prophecy. In the book "The Great Controversy" She also "re-edited " the history of the Protestant reformation. Which was subsequently made available to teachers, here in the US and was soon widely accepted to be historical fact.
Does this help?
BTW - Amy Semple McPherson was an self proclaimed Evangelist who founded the Foursquare church. She faked her own kidnapping to run away with her lover, had numerous marriages and affairs and then committed suicide. She is also considered the mother of modern media evangelism. -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 3:58 PMCongratulations - and thanks!
Yeah, I'd got the impression that Aimee (which I believe is the correct spelling) Semple MacPherson was the wrong evangelist. -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 4:14 PM...Although I should note that, reared an Anglo-Catholic (i.e., High Church Episcopalian) myself, I was taught that points e and f are correct. As regards (e), I was taught that "the dead shall be raised whole and incorruptible" on the Day of Judgement, but until then we are all "resting in the Lord." As the Anglican Book of Common Prayer reminds us - I believe this is from the Nicene Creed, common to both Anglo- and Roman Catholics - "And He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead..." That's the point of Judgement, and is related to the reason some churches prohibit cremation (apparently God has the power to resurrect your bones, but Omnipotence balks at raising your ashes - ?!?). Whereas if the dead have already moved on to their final destination, then only the quick - i.e., the living - would seem to stand in need of Judgement.
My late brother-in-law, an Anglican Archbishop (and as such a proud Catholic), used to dwell on this point in some detail, waxing quite scathing (in private) on the subject of the common belief that the dead go on to Heaven or Hell any time before Judgement.
The Revelation of St. John suggests the final point - something to the effect that the Devil and Hell are to be cast into the lake of fire.
Nevertheless, those are precisely the footnotes I needed. Many thanks again.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 4:19 PM
Well apologies to Ms. McPherson for putting false words in her mouth. :)
I looked up Mrs. White but, could'nt find any of her writings or much else besides her being part of the Seventh Day folks
Congratulations again! :) -
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 7:47 PM
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 4:44 PMCongratulations!
And now I know where many of the tract stories came from (that shaped my early years in the church). Knowing the history of it now is rather eye opening in a very good way. Thanks.
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Re: semi-OT - "Catholics not Christian" fallacy
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 6:24 PMOne point to remember is also that at one point during the middle ages there were three Popes running around Europe excommunicating each other over TINY differences in doctrine and beliefs.