Sword belts

topic posted Fri, June 19, 2009 - 11:08 AM by 
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Anybody have an "off the rack" source for sword belts like these, or MUST I have custom work done?

tribes.tribe.net/elizabeth...41cb9d4df4

tribes.tribe.net/elizabeth...47e5efaa29
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  • Re: Sword belts

    Fri, June 19, 2009 - 12:44 PM

    I've yet to see anyone who makes a period hanger both with appropriate belt width and hanger construction.

    John Tripp was talking about receiving one earlier this year but, I'm not sure if he spoke about getting it or not, construction etc. John??

    Gereg posted something a bit back about a gentleman who now sells the proper period hardware for belt construction but, when Tribe went down I lost that info so, perhaps he could post it again.
    • Re: Sword belts

      Fri, June 19, 2009 - 12:56 PM
      Pax, are you talking about this guy?
      www.quietpress.com/RapierSet.html

      I've seen Gordon wear one like this and I vaguely recall him saying he got it from this site... but I also recall that he had complaints about it.
      • Re: Sword belts

        Fri, June 19, 2009 - 1:12 PM

        Not that guy, I've heard problems about that as well primarily that the brass is soft and the hooks tend to break.

        I will go through my stuff and see if I bookmarked it or not.
    • Re: Sword belts

      Sat, June 20, 2009 - 7:42 AM
      Mike Gess with the southern germans makes proper period thin belts, I can't speak to hangers though I bet he can do it. I'll see if I can dig out his contact info and pm it to you Ry.
  • Re: Sword belts

    Fri, June 19, 2009 - 12:59 PM
    Arms & Armor has one too, but it's realllllllly spendy by my standards. I love their stuff, but they tend to be on the high end of the pricing scale most of the time. Though, I have a lovely dagger of theirs that I've had for years...
    www.armour.com/rapier201.html
    • Re: Sword belts

      Fri, June 19, 2009 - 1:16 PM

      Yeah thats seriously expensive especially as your just paying for the hardware! The belt and hanger themselves are'nt all that great looking. I've got some pics from some hangers in Leeds I believe that are just frakking amazing if I got one of those I would *maybe*maybe* pay that kind of money. But then, I would see a really nice rapier or cut and thrust and say oooooooo!! more for the money! :)
  • Re: Sword belts

    Fri, June 19, 2009 - 2:08 PM
    There was a guy who used to make incredible stuff who showed at the Long Beach faire, for the life of me I can't remember his name, but maybe someone else might.
    And his prices were really reasonable.
  • Re: Sword belts

    Sat, June 20, 2009 - 1:39 AM
    The gentleman from Excalibur Leather works that was at Valhalla is where Guy got his made. It is a custom piece, but pretty reasonable on for such craftsmanship.
  • Re: Sword belts

    Sat, June 20, 2009 - 8:15 AM
    Custom work.

    I have seen off the rack that is close but the problem is the hardware.

    Modern hardware can be close but still not period and brass as noted before is a soft - but very period metal.

    BTW - are you looking for the same sort of inlay work as in the portrait? That sort of custom work is going to be very costly.

    Check out these links. If you know someone who does period leather work they probably have them already but just in case.

    www.sclcg.org/flasah/flas...hanger1.html

    www.sclcg.org/flasah/flas...hanger2.html

    Myself - I prefer a baldric.
    • Re: Sword belts

      Sat, June 20, 2009 - 10:03 AM

      Thats a nice how-to Joe!

      The only problem with it IMO, is the tension loops that suspends your blade. Just about everyone does it like the instructions although, he does cut the end straps short so they just go through the buckles which, invariably end up flopping over and looking aesthetically bad.

      Period ones are constructed so that the "buckle straps" are part of the "main plate" as he calls it then loop under itself and is somehow connected to the backside. It's a cleaner line and look that it gives. I'll post some pics of examples I have from either the Leeds museum or the Globe theatre in England.

      But thanks for the link I will be adapting that!! :)
  • Re: Sword belts

    Sat, June 20, 2009 - 10:11 AM

    Rydell,

    Just got a message from Gereg, he is making period hangers so, you can contact him. He's going to dig up the info he has on folks who make the proper hardware when I get that, I will pass it on.
    • Re: Sword belts

      Sat, June 20, 2009 - 10:19 AM

      Pictures are posted
      • Re: Sword belts

        Sat, June 20, 2009 - 10:25 AM
        I was looking for an economic alternative to having custom work done, but it doesn't seem to exist with any degree of quality.

        Gereg's my first choice for any leather work.
        • Re: Sword belts

          Mon, June 22, 2009 - 1:04 PM
          Unfortunately for his California friends, Gereg has moved to Ohio, but he might well be interested in doing some custom work. I don't expect to see him on Tribe but he does answer his e-mail. Let me know if you need a direction for him.
          • Re: Sword belts

            Mon, June 22, 2009 - 1:16 PM
            We're in touch. Thanks, Maggie.
            • Re: Sword belts

              Mon, June 22, 2009 - 1:53 PM
              It's good to be missed. (Particularly if they're aiming at you.)
              At some point I'll post some pictures I took of my last rig in process - the trick to the 'disappearing loop back' issue isn't that tough, and was pretty intuitive once I started making one. It is, unfortunately, a lot easier to do than to describe.
              Basically, you slide the strap down through the tongueless buckle on what will be the front without attaching it; then loop it around the scabbard and secure it to the central 'post' of the buckle from behind, in a spiral that reminds me of a chambered Nautilus (your imagination may vary). That leaves a slightly free-sliding loop to slide the sword in through, and it friction-fits in place. I've used rivets to fasten the strap onto the 'post', but for authenticity's sake it really ought to be stitched.
              However, that description barely makes sense even to me, and I already know what I mean. Somebody nag me a little, and I'll post the pictures.
              Don't get me wrong - I'd love commissions, particularly with the employment picture in Ohio as near-dismal as it is, but I feel I ought not to be the only one with this info. And I've never seen anybody produce a decent rig commercially - a pity, as it's actually easier to construct than the 'dangly bits' versions that are commonly around for sale.
              Maggie, thank you for the heads-up.
              • Re: Sword belts

                Mon, June 22, 2009 - 1:54 PM
                Oh, and Pax - thank you too. Sorry - you actually mentioned it first, but Maggie's cuter. What can I say?
              • Re: Sword belts

                Mon, June 22, 2009 - 3:40 PM

                Gereg,

                Yes send pics and the dealers information and as I mentioned, I really want to give this a try. It will give me something to do.

                And no problems I understand the cuteness factor! :)
                • Re: Sword belts

                  Mon, June 22, 2009 - 4:32 PM
                  Richard Lanni is the best maker of parts that I know - a superb selection of sizes and styles. I've found other makers who offer more advice (such as a pattern for the leather) or complete pre-selected sets (albeit for a specific design, and far flimsier than any sworder or Faire worker I know would want to use): but Lanni's stuff is solid enough for anybody this side of Conn MacLir...
                  You can contact Richard Lanni at:
                  bucklecastings04@yahoo.com
                  ...and he'll send you a catalogue of sorts (I got a few Xeroxed pages).
                  Someone in this thread mentioned Tattershall - sorry to hear that he's not doing well, for William's both a gentleman and a scholar - and the parts he uses are Lanni's.

                  Pax, I thank you for your gracious tolerance; I was pretty sure you'd understand. You too are a gentleman and a scholar (and it's not often that I can say that about two fellows in one comment).
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Sword belts

                    Tue, June 23, 2009 - 6:57 AM
                    Gereg! How wonderful to see you upon these pages once again.

                    Quietly I have been observing the historic makings of these sword belts and I am so confused. In the portrates of Leicester and Dudly, James and even in the portrate of Henry Lee (1600) you clearly see the ornate trappings of the belts. They actually appear as perhaps the belts are made of cloth rather than leather. However, your description is in need of photos. I must appologize. I cannot not find a portrate that clearly shows the "sword" side so I could witness the detail.

                    Again, best regards! BTW, where did you settle in Ohio?
                    • Re: Sword belts

                      Tue, June 23, 2009 - 8:00 AM

                      Michael -

                      If you take a look at the pics I posted especially of the blue one with double lions you'll see that the belt is leather but, it is definitely covered with a blue velvet. In that one you can see the backside of the belt and at one point in the fold you can see the leather backing.
                      • Re: Sword belts

                        Tue, June 23, 2009 - 8:05 AM

                        P.S. Forgot to mention that the biggest problem with Leicester is that he favors his right side when ever he has his portrait done. Thus you never really get to see his rig.....unfortunately.
                        • Re: Sword belts

                          Tue, June 23, 2009 - 10:05 AM
                          heh.. I was looking for links in your posts. Forgot about the photo section. I see how the straps are cut from the self. Is there any reverse photo of a frog showing what happens to the straps?
                          • Re: Sword belts

                            Tue, June 23, 2009 - 11:47 AM

                            Unfortunately not, and that is the bit that Gereg is talking about with curling it within itself.
                            • Partly OT - Re: Sword belts

                              Tue, June 23, 2009 - 1:12 PM
                              Here are some photos of the process, done with parts from another source, B.L. (before I found Lanni). I had to order two sets of hardware in order to construct a three-lobe hanger and the right sort of adjustment strap .
                              Hope the captions help.
                              picasaweb.google.com/GeregKi...therWork

                              Michael -
                              Radnor (trust me to find a town with a Welsh name) is just outside of Delaware - which in turn is about 20 miles north of Columbus. At present it's humid and hot, and more lovely than the description implies.
                              picasaweb.google.com/GeregKimberly/Ohio
                              • Re: Partly OT - Re: Sword belts

                                Tue, June 23, 2009 - 1:45 PM
                                Thank you for your information. I see rivets in play. I am interested in seeing how you fashion the straps to be self supporting (if that is possible).

                                I am not familiar with Radnor, but fully away of Columbus. My wife graduated from Ohio State. If you were to travel along I70 toward Wheeling WVa. you would see an exit for Neffs (her home) just before the Ohio River. I spent many steps in that particular area. One step found Carol. <grin>
                                • Re: Sword belts

                                  Tue, June 23, 2009 - 6:17 PM
                                  "I am interested in seeing how you fashion the straps to be self supporting (if that is possible). "

                                  Eh? I don't think they're old enough to get jobs of their own, Michael... but then I don't think that's what you mean by self-supporting. Um... what DO you mean? I might be able to answer. It's a gravity/friction fit, if that's what you mean.

                                  That's it, Pax - belittle my grand achievement. *Sigh* I see how you are now.
                                  But yes, I admit that once you get the blinding flash of the idea, it's easy as ...well, cornbread (I can't bake a pie). After that it's just math and design. Just remember Benvenuto Cellini's dictum: segnare sette, e tagliar uno. Getting the proportions and cuts right was the hardest work I've ever had to do with leather.

                                  Signing off from Buckeye country...
                                  G
                                  • Re: Sword belts

                                    Wed, June 24, 2009 - 12:12 AM

                                    Apologies, I did'nt mean to belittle your work, it really was a moment of DUH!!! Why did'nt I think of that in the first place <insert forehead slap!!>

                                    You've done beautiful work there, and I have most certainly will have my work cut out for me to accomplish something half as good.

                                    Many, many thanks! :)
                                    • Re: Sword belts

                                      Wed, June 24, 2009 - 9:12 AM
                                      "Apologies, I didn't mean to belittle your work, it really was a moment of DUH!!! Why didn't I think of that in the first place <insert forehead slap!!> "

                                      Sorry for the sarcasm - well, no, not sorry for the sarcasm exactly, because that's pretty much second nature: but sorry that you took me even remotely seriously. Trust me, I didn't feel belittled. I want you - and anybody else out there - to have the ability to accomplish the authentic effect. That DUH! feeling is very much how I felt once I put the pieces together. It's pretty plain to see, once you get it - and that's one reason I want the information out there. Even given that I had the insight uninstructed, it's too simple and after-the-fact obvious a principle for me to feel proprietary about it - I'm only rediscovering the common knowledge of craftsmen long dead; and isn't that what this tribe is here for? On top of that, a gentleman from the School of the Renaissance Soldier set the question in my mind of what the back looked like... so that once the hardware was in my hands, it offered the answer.
                                      But I do thank you for the kind words.
                                  • Re: Sword belts

                                    Wed, June 24, 2009 - 6:09 AM
                                    Gereg, thank you for making me clean up my comment. Exactly, friction, gravity? How are the straps secured behind the scene? In one photo posted by Pax it appeared that "rings" are used and that perhaps the strap tab(free end) is inserted through the ring and possibly looped back through ala, "s"shape to create the lock. Without using rivets or belt holes how is it secured?
                                    • Re: Sword belts

                                      Wed, June 24, 2009 - 9:24 AM
                                      Ah, nevermind. I get it. Now that I am correctly seeing he hardware I see the methods.
                                      • Re: Sword belts

                                        Wed, June 24, 2009 - 9:42 AM
                                        "Ah, nevermind. I get it. Now that I am correctly seeing he hardware I see the methods. "

                                        Obviously I took too long composing my answer...
                                        Not the first time, I might add.
                                    • Re: Sword belts

                                      Wed, June 24, 2009 - 9:39 AM
                                      "How are the straps secured behind the scene?"

                                      I think you're asking - correct me if I'm wrong - how the sword is held in place.
                                      Review my photos with the following in mind (and study the captions): slide the 'buckle' up your strap between the two 'front side' loops of the figure 8, then curl strap backwards around to the central post (where the tongue would be fixed on a modern two-sided buckle). Fasten it in place there (I used a rivet), creating a free-sliding loop... a loop that slides up behind, not in front like all the commercial ones we see.
                                      You asked about the 'free end'... There is no 'free end'; that's half the elegance of it: the whole combination sort of swallows itself. (The Sword-loop Ouroboros?)
                                      Having made each loop this way, simply slide the scabbarded sword through.
                                      Your leather needs to be just heavy enough that the 'buckle' doesn't slide too freely, yet flexible enough that your loop snugs down around the scabbard. You may need to do some oiling and tightening to get the right fit. (I did.)
                                      Unless your sheath is pretty tight-fitting, your scabbard will now stay in place as your sword is drawn. (The more flexible your leather, the firmer a friction-fit you get... but the floppier your whole hanger is. Finding the happy medium is something of a balancing act.) Friction and gravity do the rest. If you're not planning to use the rig for more than one sword, you could even glue the scabbard in place for greater security; but I haven't yet found that necessary.
                                      'Disappearing' the loop end inside itself also keeps there from being any loose straps to wear on your garments - important, given that it loops to the inside.

                                      I've seen something like this design executed with the inside end of the straps simply left loose, i.e. on John Tripp's hanger, but this results in a gradual slide downward for your whole blade as gravity takes its toll, as well as leaving a set of dangling straps that appear nowhere in the originals. The otherwise excellent design of John's is also marred (sorry, John) by an adjustment strap leading from the the front lobe of the hanger itself, instead of extending straight out from behind the sword, permitting a certain needless 'wobble' factor - and again, not giving quite the look of the originals.

                                      Of course (he added coyly), if this still isn't making sense, you could always commission a rig from me...
  • Dan
    Dan
    offline 2

    Re: Sword belts

    Mon, June 22, 2009 - 8:25 PM
    Though on a very temporary hold, these guys do great work. The cast parts are their own. You can read a review of their work by Gordon Frye here on their blog buckleheads.blogspot.com/ . For some more information on them, check these out... forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB...ic.php
    forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB...ic.php

    The images haven't been updated in a while, but I'll see if I can get them to upload some more recent ones. I actually purchased one of Tattershall's six ring hangers, but I didn't find it to be entirely satisfactory, The Buckleheads guys fixed it up and it works like a dream.

    I think you can reach them at contact@gsmbristol.org If it's anything different, I'll post up here.

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