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16th century English folk dance

topic posted Wed, June 17, 2009 - 11:00 AM by  		Share/Save/Bookmark
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I'm told that the country dances usually seen at Faires are 17th century, mostly because that's the earliest records we have of them and the music that accompanies them.

Is this true or does somebody know for sure (documentable) what dances the regular folks were doing?
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  • Re: 16th century English folk dance

    Wed, June 17, 2009 - 11:16 AM
    pryanksters.org/

    We use the 1650 Playford, version one. We dance ones that (to us anyways) look easy to follow the action, and look pretty from the outside.
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    • Maggie
      Maggie
      offline 71

      Re: 16th century English folk dance

      Wed, June 17, 2009 - 11:27 AM
      The assumption is that the dances were not written by Playford all at once in 1650, but that he collected them and the tunes that were commonly used with them. They could be much older or only a little older, there's no way of knowing. They are certainly the oldest we have. There's no way to account for the folk process (additions, subtractions, local variations) since any of them first developed, whenever that was.
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    • Norman
      Norman
      offline 90

      Re: 16th century English folk dance

      Wed, June 17, 2009 - 7:28 PM
      Although I appreciate the pointer to the Pryankster site when I put those dance descriptions up they were more as a “shorthand” guide for performances. The Robert Keller database is quite difficult to understand without sitting down and translating his shorthand.

      The most complete collection of the dances published by John Playford (and Family) is “The Dancing Master, 1651-1728: An Illustrated Compendium” By Robert M. Keller ( www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/in...ingmaster/ ). To quote from the introduction “The series eventually grew to eighteen editions of the first volume (1651–1728), four of a second (1710–1728), and two of a third (1719?–1726?) and long out-lived its originator. The three volumes eventually encompassed 1,053 unique dances and their music. Many were copied from one edition to the next so that the entire contents, with duplicates, amounts to 6,217 dances, including 186 tunes without dances and 3 songs.”

      It is quite a collection and is available on CD-ROM from Colonial Music ( www.colonialmusic.org/RetailCatalog.pdf )
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  • Morgan
    Morgan
    offline 49

    Re: 16th century English folk dance

    Wed, June 17, 2009 - 11:31 AM
    * ahem *
    I feel qualified to step in here...
    The first volume of English Country Dances was published by John Playford in 1650.
    In his introduction, Mr Playford states that he would not have published this volume at all, had it not been for an inferior publication with bad information that had been circulated at the time. The introduction also infers that these dances & tunes had been used for generations.
    A study of these dances reveals that there are four different kinds, sets for 2,3, & four couples, and the " duple minor progressive" set, where couples dance in lines " for as many as will" , and progress up & down the set.
    The "duple minor progressive" sets took off around the time of the Restoration, and English Country Dances were all the Rage. THIS is where all the volumes & volumes of that sort of set dance come from.
    As far as OUR time period goes...the Dance Community believes that the oldest dances are the circle dances, with the fixed set dances following soon after.
    It is very hard to document the dances that the peasantry were doing then, as either nobody ( who could ) cared enough to write it down, and those that were doing it never thought they needed to document it in any form. All we have is a few references from plays of that era, where they would have probably been playing those tunes.
    Sometimes the name will tell you - there is a dance called "The 29th of May", OOPS - a reference to the Restoration of the Monarchy...IN 1650 !!! ...and it is a duple-minor progressive.
    I could go on for days here...but suffice it to say, we in the Country Dance Community of Historical Recreationists have been wrestling with this very issue, with varied results, for a long time, now.
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    • howard
      howard
      offline 4

      Re: 16th century English folk dance

      Thu, June 18, 2009 - 6:11 PM
      Um, 1660.

      Charles II entered London on May 29th, 1660, beginning the Restoration Era.

      He was crowned King of Scots before that, but not of England. It gets a little complicated.

      H
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      • Morgan
        Morgan
        offline 49

        Re: 16th century English folk dance

        Thu, June 18, 2009 - 9:05 PM
        Right!
        Complicated ?? The Stuarts??
        Imagine that !!
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        • Re: 16th century English folk dance

          Fri, June 19, 2009 - 7:52 AM
          Pure conjecture here, but when you read the contemporary Elizabethan dance manuals from the Continent (I'm thinking Arbeau and Caroso), there is very often mention made of dances which, while performed by the upper classes (to whom the dance manuals were directed), were imitative of or derivative of what the lower orders were doing at the time. Sort of "let's go slumming" mentality. Although this is a backwards work around, it might be a valid entry into the world of country dances of the period. And given the nature of dance in general (again, from my limited perspective), there seems to have been a commonality of "peasant" dances which was not regionally specific.

          Of course this isn't a direct reference to what was being done by the lower classes in England at the time, but as someone, I think, pointed out downstream, the lower classes weren't often the focus of anyone's attention. There was no 16th century Alan Lomax documenting "roots" music and dance.

          So, Rydell, you might want to drag our your Arbeau and take a look. I've misplaced my copy over the years, so I'm useless cow, but it's available online and I know there a ton of bransle/brawls in it which had to have come from somewhere.
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          • Morgan
            Morgan
            offline 49

            Re: 16th century English folk dance

            Fri, June 19, 2009 - 8:01 AM
            I DO know that there is a Praetorius dance set ( it is on the David Munrowe & The Early Music Consort of London album " The Muses of Zion ") that is IN FACT two English Country Dances put together - " The Health " and ' Parson's Farewell".
            Ricker, upon hearing this, immediately put those two dances together in performance.
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            • Kelly
              Kelly
              offline 199

              Re: 16th century English folk dance

              Fri, June 19, 2009 - 1:18 PM
              In addition to Morgan's excellent explanation, I'll add that Newcastle has some great dances that fall under the "didn't happen, but could have category", mostly created by the aforementioned Master Dave Ricker. THey use elemnts and figures of Playford's dances, but are put together in different combinations.
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              • Bess
                Bess
                online 76

                Re: 16th century English folk dance

                Fri, June 19, 2009 - 1:37 PM
                The CGD, being formed by former Newcastle members, partakes in Ricker's "Ladies of Newcastle" and "Uffington Horse" alongside the Playford recorded dances. Both are prime examples of the folk tradition of keeping the creation of a folk art alive and evolving rather than just preserving what was formerly passed down as an "oral" tradition that was recorded by Playford.

                I'm just thankful that Playford saw fit to write down these dances so they won't be completely lost due to the lack of an oral tradition.

                Remember, back during the 16th Century, while the general populace was thought to be very literate, they may not have had the same desire to record the details of their lives as we do today. So it's quite possible that they didn't even give a thought to writing down the steps of the dances they did for whatever reason, probably including a general lack of free time to be able to sit down and write. There's a decided lack of diaries from the ranks of commoners, and from reading "The Voices of Morebath" most parish clergy were really more concerned with keeping the parish records in good order rather than writing down what could be seen as trivialities.

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              • Sasq...
                Sasquatch
                offline 238

                Re: 16th century English folk dance

                Mon, June 22, 2009 - 12:22 PM
                "mostly created by the aforementioned Master Dave Ricker. THey use elemnts and figures of Playford's dances, but are put together in different combinations."

                Ah the memories. That really threw me off during my short short career as a Newcastle clapper : ).

                Sas
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          • Re: 16th century English folk dance

            Fri, June 19, 2009 - 8:06 AM
            I'm told by my illustrious dance mistress that Bransles were pretty much done by everybody. Upper classes considered them sort of old-fashioned and folksy, much like we consider square dances and set dances today. It's the stuff they remember doing as a kid.

            I have no information on this other than what I've received verbally.

            As far as Bransles being "French", our American folk dance traditions came from elsewhere. The grand British tradition of Morris dancing is believed to have come to England from elsewhere, perhaps via Gypsies ("Moorish" dancing).
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            • Norman
              Norman
              offline 90

              Re: 16th century English folk dance

              Fri, June 19, 2009 - 8:46 AM
              Oh, Rydell, let’s not start on the origins of Morris. That subject has caused MANY arguments.

              One year (for April 1) I published an article “proving” that Morris dance was invented by one Philip Morris who was a sailor with Drake on his round the world trip after seeing native dance from various places. At least one person actually believed me :-).
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            • Bess
              Bess
              online 76

              Re: 16th century English folk dance

              Fri, June 19, 2009 - 1:46 PM
              I refer to the topic title in response to my previous, and overly short answer of "It's French" to the Bransles comment.

              Yes, I understand that it's entirely possible, nay probable, that folk dances and elements thereof most likely came to England and mingled with native dance not only from France, but the Netherlands as well as any other non-natives of the Island of Britain who invaded or colonized there. In fact, there are elements of English Country Dance in American Square Dance.



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          • Norman
            Norman
            offline 90

            Re: 16th century English folk dance

            Fri, June 19, 2009 - 8:33 AM
            Playford's first edition was definitely not published for the common folk. The publisher notes, “Printed by Thomas Harper, and are to be sold by John Playford, at his Shop in the Inner Temple neer the Church doore. 1651.”

            Not many country bumpkins in that neighborhood.
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  • Icy
    Icy
    offline 4

    Re: 16th century English folk dance

    Fri, June 19, 2009 - 11:57 AM
    Greetings Rydell
    Irene Ujida from the yesteryearsdancers is also a member of our Re-enactment Group .
    Most recently she spent time at the prestigious Dolmetsch Historical Dance Institute in England, focusing on baroque dance. Mlle. Irene's choreographies are varied, vibrant.

    She might be a good source to answer your question .

    best wishes ladyt
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  • Icy
    Icy
    offline 4

    Re: 16th century English folk dance

    Fri, June 19, 2009 - 11:59 AM
    www.yesteryearsdancers.com/aboutus.htm

    Here is her website , her name is Irene .

    Ladyt
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    • Carrie
      Carrie
      offline 206

      Re: 16th century English folk dance

      Mon, June 22, 2009 - 4:56 PM
      From her bio: "She has had extensive background in the dances of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries."

      Again, we're talking 16th century and earlier here.

      Also: she started studying dance in 1983. She's a relative young'un in knowledge and experience compared to our own "in-house" resources.
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      • Icy
        Icy
        offline 4

        Re: 16th century English folk dance

        Tue, June 23, 2009 - 11:13 PM
        Hi everyone sorry it took me awhile to get back on line
        Here is Irenes reply on English Dancing which she also gave some sources and some other information . She is Polish yes
        but teaches many forms , Im sure that you all know more about english dance style than I , I did find her reply very interesting
        cheers
        Ladyt

        YES it's true, the first English Country Dance ("ECD") documented sources are 17th century, not 16th c., the primary source for the ECDs at local ren faires is something called Playford after the publisher's name, and first edition was not published until 1651, altho scholars have dated some dances as earlier than their first printing, going by references in diaries and books and such.

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dancing_Master



        There is also ren "court dance" literature available, 16th c - 17th c mostly from Italy & France, but some from England Germany & Spain, Holland, etc. That's where we get pavans, galliards, canaries, other solo, couple, trio & quartet dances not done in lines like ECD, etc.



        Please note that Courts did dance the same "country dances" as the common folk, and I am not sure the nobles always danced in a more elegantly or refined manner, versus earthy, carefree, even rowdy - perhaps the upper classes let loose joyfully sometimes too. Think also about the various surfaces the dancers must dance on, which affects styling - slippery marble floors or grassy village greens.



        Country dances were done all over Europe, people did their own local versions, there is an awesome collection in the Yahgyellonian [Jagiellonian] University library in Krahkoovf [Krakow] that I saw myself.



        I think the Polish version "Szharotch" [Szarocz] / Sir Roger de Coverly scotch reel came to Eastern Europe with entourage of Bonnie Prince Charlie whose mother was Princess Maria Clementina Sobieska [Marya Klementyna Sobieska].

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clem...a_Sobieski



        The Ren Faire dances are authentic but current local versions are susceptible to reconstructors' tastes and scholarship, and much depends on how one person learned it from someone else, and how they pass it on. There are some very excellent stylish local choreographers, and some who take shortcuts, who knows why, people have their reasons. It's a mixed bag, like any avocation. The folks in England push it back a little more than Americans, and I trust English, French, Polish styles more than American interpretations, esp after taking classes in Europe.



        WE ALSO HAVE EARLIER DANCE SOURCES FOR MEDIEVAL European 14th and 15th centuries

        Irenka


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  • Rebecca
    Rebecca
    offline 36

    Re: 16th century English folk dance

    Fri, June 26, 2009 - 9:10 AM
    I came across something yesterday that I found interesting on the topic - not answering any of the burning questions specifically, mind you, but adding one stick to the fire, anyway. One popular folk dance we do is "Heart's Ease." The song at least is mentioned in Romeo and Juliet:

    PETER
    Musicians, O, musicians, 'Heart's ease, Heart's ease:' O, an you will have me live, play 'Heart's ease.'

    First Musician
    Why 'Heart's ease?'

    PETER
    O, musicians, because my heart itself plays 'My heart is full of woe:' O, play me some merry dump, to comfort me. (R&J, IV.5)

    Dump, by the way, is a grand word that we don't use enough. The OED has:
    1. A fit of abstraction or musing, a reverie; a dazed or puzzled state, a maze; perplexity, amazement; absence of mind. (Often in pl.) Obs.
    1523 SKELTON Garl. Laurell 14 So depely drownyd I was in this dumpe, encraumpyshed so sore was my conceyte, That, me to rest, I lent me to a stumpe of an oke. 1530 [see DUMP v.2 1]. 1586 J. HOOKER Girald. Irel. in Holinshed II. 17/1 [They] were in a great dumpe and perplexitie, and in a maner were at their wits end.
    A fit of melancholy or depression; now only in pl. (colloq. and more or less humorous): Heaviness of mind, dejection, low spirits.
    1529 MORE Comf. agst. Trib. I. Wks. 1140/2 What heapes of heauynesse, hathe of late fallen amonge vs alreadye, with whiche some of our poore familye bee fallen into suche dumpes. 1555 W. WATREMAN Fardle Facions II. viii. 179 Nor lacke throwe men into desperate doompes.

    And more to the point:
    3. A mournful or plaintive melody or song; also, by extension, a tune in general; sometimes app. used for a kind of dance. Obs.
    a1553 UDALL Royster D. II. i. (Arb.) 32 Then twang with our sonets, and twang with our dumps, And heyhough from our heart, as heauie as lead lumpes. a1586 SIDNEY Sonn. in Arb. Garner II. 180 Some good old dumpe, that Chaucers mistresse knew.

    This seems to me to be at least *some* evidence for Heart's Ease being a dance that was commonly known in the 1590's.
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    • Rebecca
      Rebecca
      offline 36

      Re: 16th century English folk dance

      Fri, June 26, 2009 - 9:16 AM
      Peter would likely have been played by WIll Kemp, who was the famous comedian and dancer.

      Oh, and there are words to the song, too, these from an undated broadside of approx 1628, and the melody we use is of course from Playford (1651):
      Complain my lute, complain on him that stays so long away;
      He promis'd to be here ere this,
      but still unkind doth stay:
      But now the proverb true I find
      Once out of sight, then out of mind
      Hey Ho! my heart is full of woe!
      [My heart is full of woe].
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      • Rebecca
        Rebecca
        offline 36

        Re: 16th century English folk dance

        Fri, June 26, 2009 - 9:23 AM
        There are a ton more verses as well. My source for this is Shakespeare's Songbook, ed. Ross Duffin. There are also lyrics to the same tune but titled "Sing Care Away" "from the anonymous Elizabethan 'prodigal son' interlude, *Mosogonous*." These lyrics are much more upbeat and mention dancing:

        In cards and dice our comfort lies
        in sporting and in dancing;
        Our minds to please and live at ease
        and sometimes to use prancing
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