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Cross Posting in Snobs and Ren Faire Entertainment because I KNOW there are two different opinions and two distinct groups of people.
Faire songs. NOW, let me preface this with the statement that I am not considering songs sung by The Poxy Boggards or the Wives or anything sung at the reefe as part of this discussion. They have their own merits, and their own set of rules.
When is a faire song considered ok to sing? If the song was written in the 1500’s? If the song SOUNDS like it would work fine for that era? If the song is commercially recognizable but meets the second criteria? Examples: Gypsy Rover Dates back to 1720’s Is it acceptable for faire .. of course it is.. it is sung all the time. Pastime with Good Company, written by Henry VIII also perfectly period. Let Union Be? 1828 but wait, we are getting much newer now.
How about something as recent as “Go home with Bonnie Jean” From Brigadoon Or “How are things in Glocca Morra” - Finian’s Rainbow? Two very lovely songs, that both SOUND very period. How are they any different than Let Union Be? Newer songs that were not written back in the 1500’s? We sing MANY songs.. ones that are made up recently (I know, because I made them up myself)
And personally, I would think that if you could sing a song that the customers MIGHT know and MIGHT be able to sing along with you.. it might be more enjoyable for them.
When is it allowed?
Faire songs. NOW, let me preface this with the statement that I am not considering songs sung by The Poxy Boggards or the Wives or anything sung at the reefe as part of this discussion. They have their own merits, and their own set of rules.
When is a faire song considered ok to sing? If the song was written in the 1500’s? If the song SOUNDS like it would work fine for that era? If the song is commercially recognizable but meets the second criteria? Examples: Gypsy Rover Dates back to 1720’s Is it acceptable for faire .. of course it is.. it is sung all the time. Pastime with Good Company, written by Henry VIII also perfectly period. Let Union Be? 1828 but wait, we are getting much newer now.
How about something as recent as “Go home with Bonnie Jean” From Brigadoon Or “How are things in Glocca Morra” - Finian’s Rainbow? Two very lovely songs, that both SOUND very period. How are they any different than Let Union Be? Newer songs that were not written back in the 1500’s? We sing MANY songs.. ones that are made up recently (I know, because I made them up myself)
And personally, I would think that if you could sing a song that the customers MIGHT know and MIGHT be able to sing along with you.. it might be more enjoyable for them.
When is it allowed?
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Los Angeles
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Re: Is It Period?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 9:48 AMI have to admit that I don't know enough about period music to be able to answer.
Others far better versed than I would go on about modes and keys and rhythms that are characteristic of the 16th century, and how much of that music has been altered over time as it's been reinterpreted. I'm unable to follow them.
I believe there is enough period music in existence that we don't have to make it up or borrow a whole lot from other eras, but music is an area I'm willing to fudge on to a certain extent - maybe a greater extent than in any other area.
For my own part, I'm annoyed when I hear something that is distinctly un-elizabethan - sea shanties that mention places we don't know about yet, for example, and songs that use language that sounds really modern. There's a poetry in the lyrics of the old songs that nobody seems to be able to duplicate.
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Re: Is It Period?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 9:51 AMI think traditional music, if it does not pinpoint an obvious date, time or action, as with Maui, should be fine.
Any show tune is right out, as it is just that, a show tune. It matters not if the subject matter is somewhat period. It reads modern. To me that grates right up there with jugglers adding pop culture references to their acts.
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Re: Is It Period?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 4:04 PMMy group cuts off in 1610 -- ie we don't perform anything later. Although we aren't singing folk songs, so we have the advantage of there being a decent amount of 16th c. Italian music out there. I'm guessing folk songs may be harder to document? (But I admit I know very little about folk music other than "cool song, learned it at faire.")
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Re: Is It Period?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 4:37 PMTo my immense chagrin, I once had to explain to someone that no, "Queen of Argyll" was *not* a period song ... or else the composer, whom I had met just the night before held his age well. :-/
There are lots of interesting period songs. I know a lot of concessions are made to "it sounds period" and "the customer won't know." Heck, one of my favorite (much lamented) singing groups from the past did songs that were definitely out of period (e.g., the Quaker hymn "How can I keep from singing"). Perhaps keeping the "period-ish" songs to a minimum (creating some kind of standard, like 2/set) as a start would be a way to go?
I suppose, and this is entirely conjecture, that part of the issue is that so much of surviving music from the period seems to be liturgical and people are reluctant to use it as a result?? Someone else can weigh in on this, because I really am just taking a stab at the matter without a huge background in early music.
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Re: Is It Period?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 6:17 PMI am only an interested amateur, but here are some things to chew on:
Folk songs as such only really started being collected in the late 19th century by such as Frances Child ("Child ballads"). They were not called ballads then, as ballad had a different meaning. But they may have evolved in the oral tradition from much older tuned, carols, etc.
Broadside publication became popular in the 1600's until the rise of the newspaper in the 1800's, and are a source for many of our songs.
A folk tune was often recycled many times with updated lyrics, or for special occasions, so while the words may be datable to past period, the music may be much older. I can't speak to telltale period rhythms and harmonics.
Here are some useful links for more info:
www.mudcat.org/
Mudcat has discussion threads about a multitude of folk songs, as well as midi files.
www.nls.uk/broadsides/background.html
www.contemplator.com/history...ide.html
www.pbm.com/~lindahl/bal.../early_child/
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Re: Is It Period?
Thu, May 14, 2009 - 8:01 PMWoot!
Somebody wants to talk about renaissance music! My specialty!
I will go and get my library of period music and hold forth as soon as I'm done with this doublet, or Monday, whichever occurs first.
My knee-jerk response is:
When is a song ok to sing at faire?
When the entertainment director(s) at Your faire-tm approve it.
At my faire (which is imaginary and perfect to my standards) there will be tons of period music around every corner, and we will have a blast singing it, playing it, and dancing to it (except in church, where we will glorify an historical God with it).
My two sixteenth notes' worth.
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Re: Is It Period?
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 1:51 PM(posted this reply on the other thread also)
When I was taking French, our teacher brought in an album by Nana Mouskouki which was of songs written/sung during Medieval times. Some are lovely and I'd like to hear them at Faire, but have been told "we are English, we don't speak French!", which isn't true, as many nobles spoke/wrote French.
And the album, which I have, has all the words, too, in case anyone would be interested (hint, hint)
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Re: Is It Period?
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 7:25 PMI think it's pretty simple - don't break the illusion. No one outside of a few hardcore folkie acdemics are going to recognize "Let Union Be", but a whole bunch are going to pick out a song from Brigadoon right away.
There's also the fact that folk songs may predate the time of their writing down by a large margin.
As for writing songs, I say it's awesome as long as it's truly in the period style. Like Dave Ricker's dances and some other things that have been discussed "Didn't happen, but could have" just fine. -
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Re: Is It Period?
Sat, June 27, 2009 - 8:30 AM*sigh*
I have been fighting this war all of my Faire career.
I am a great fan of " Early Music". This is documented, pre-1650 " classical" music, as opposed to " Folk " or "Traditional".
In the " Olde Days" of Faire, it was a HOTBED of this sort of music. I knew one fellow who studied Early Music with Dr. Waverly of the Waverly Consort in Oklahoma. This fellow's big ambition - to come out to OUR FAIRE & play Early Music in an authentic environment.
We had some GIANTS people !! Folks who are in Europe now, making IMPORTANT Early Music - Mitchell Sandler, Doron Sherwin, Sue Carney...and one day, the support for that sort of thing dried up. Fewer & fewer authentic EARLY MUSICIANS plied their trade with us.
Soon after this I too left, and what I have heard since has NOT been encouraging. -
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Re: Is It Period?
Fri, July 10, 2009 - 8:52 PMOne of my great joys in the Guild of St. George is our recent association with both the Wessex Consort and the Southern California Early Music Society (SCEMS). The guild’s EME has performed at several events for the SCEMS and we recently supported a concert sponsored by the SCEMS and presented by the Wessex Consort of music by Michael Praetorius. I desperately want to reestablish a relationship between serious musicians and the reenactment community so that we can combined show the importance of period music in the context of the age in which it was written. BTW our concert was a big hit and we had dozens of people begging us to tell them when we wil be doing another.
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Re: Is It Period?
Fri, July 10, 2009 - 8:55 PMBy the way, Adam and Rotem Gilbert, formerly of Piffaro, are now professors at USC and lead a world class early music wind band called Ciaremella. See them if you can.
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Re: Is It Period?
Fri, July 10, 2009 - 8:50 PMJust don’t do it! There is no reason expect for laziness to sing anything written much after 1600. There are hundreds, if not thousands of wonderful songs readily available. Again I direct everyone to Ross Duffin’s “Shakespeare’s Songbook” and the accompanying two CDs full of music.
