My New Workshop for Northern

topic posted Wed, July 30, 2008 - 10:22 AM by  Deirdre
So this year I proposed a few workshops and 2 were chosen for Northern this year. The first is "All the Queen's Men" which is my "Elizabeth and Her Men" workshop that you may have seen at the Symposium. It is the interactive companion to my "Henry and His Wives" workshop.

The new one is "Faire Myths: Tales of tails". Molly did the name. I think it fits. So it is about Fairisms (why they are wrong and what is correct) vs. Theatrical Choices (why we do or do not use something and its origin). I am teaching each of these twice so we will see how the new one test runs but I'm pretty excited about it. Big thanks to all the Snob Tribe inspiration.

"Keeping Us "Shire" Free Since 1563" - incorrect usage of course.......
posted by:
Deirdre
SF Bay Area
  • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

    Wed, July 30, 2008 - 1:17 PM
    So one day, I was walking through the shire, in my garb, while wearing my fox tail.
    I interrupted my conversation with a boothie and I said to the Queen. Good day to you fair lady, how fare thee?

    Then I ran before Dre, Pasha, and Rydell kicked me in the junk.
    • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 5:16 AM
      You guys rock! I love to hear about this
      stuff!

      BTW, if you wanna hear some REAL "improper use"
      see 'Bruce Almighty'..It's short, and "sweet" but
      conveys the "essence of true OMG"

      Glen the above reference is, specifically, for YOU, m'dear!

      [Not having to worry about ANYONE "running after ME"]
      I remain, yours....

      Happy Dinosaur
      • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

        Thu, July 31, 2008 - 8:40 AM
        Thanks everyone, I am going to be working on this today.

        Mark - I will try to get some notes or a recording. I will warn you though that my style is very.... what would you say Beth?.. stand up comedy? I try to keep it entertaining and involve people as not to lose the audience. My personal challenge is to get out the information in a way that delivers the points but doesn't sound preachy or full of "assholery" (my new word). I want people to give up their fairisms in a positive way instead of them getting pissed off and then clinging to them even more out of defiance. It is always fun to see the first run of these classes and I'm only doing it twice (currently once 2nd weekend of pre-faire and once on 3rd weekend) I believe they are both 2nd period but I have only seen a prelim copy of the schedule and it could change before workshops start.

        Scott - yeah, the Henry one I have down pretty solid now. I counted and figure I have done that one now about 224 times so it is pretty well memorized. Though for the 7th grade version I don't use "bitch", "whore", "golden pootie" or the other adult phrases.

        Hey, here is a little Snob assignment I am running down for my class - bracers. I took archery in school, I'm a good shot with a bow and a better shot with a gun. I know about the string catching you (though once it happens you keep your arm OUT OF THEY WAY but.....) and would buy that MEN who were of a class to be archers/hunters might wearing leather bracers BUT I have yet to find anything that showed that WOMEN wore them. I know there were no women in the trained bands or in "conscripted military forces" of the time. To me, the look is too "early BBC Robin Hood/D&D Ranger/Xena Warrior Chainmail Princess" to the modern eye. I also know that studded bracers especially would not be worn due to their impracticality (catching the string, etc). I am currently filing this fashion statement under "Theatrical Decision" but think it is the exception and not the rule.

        Thoughts?
        • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

          Thu, July 31, 2008 - 9:31 AM
          After having done an image search for "Elizabethan Archer", I didn't find ANY images of anyone holding or aiming a bow wearing bracers. Not saying they DIDN'T wear 'em, just saying that, according to a quick search, it wasn't the norm.

          And quivers tended to be at the waist rather than on the back.
          • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

            Thu, July 31, 2008 - 9:41 AM
            There are numerous examples in the stuff from the Mary Rose. I don't think they'd have stopped using them between Henry VIII and Elizabeth;s reign.

            www.britishmuseum.org/images/...47_m.jpg
            www.britishmuseum.org/explore...cer.aspx (the actual article)

            Also these guys seem to know what they're doing.
            www.apieceofhistory.co.uk/

            You don't really see pictures of women hunting with a bow, except the goddess Diana, and she's usually nekkid.
            • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

              Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:11 AM
              check out page 11 and 12 for some great images

              www.historiclife.com/pdf/KAS...cher.pdf
              • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:38 AM
                This is an interesting article though I will admit my prejudice. I am hard pressed to struggle though an article written by "Lord James de Biblesworth". Damn dude, it looks like you did some homework. How about dropping the character name when you put stuff out for the public because if the first thing I read is your "character name" I don't take you seriously. I think you are a dweeb. Even if you are not.

                So, I am still of the mind that bracers were used by some men you were archers in the military and possibly hunting but have found no historical backup for women wearing them and thus think that derived from D&D/Fantasy films. I would still put this in the theatrical choice column though would use it judiciously. I don't think at a market faire there would be a herd of archers running around with flowey poet shirts and bracers.
                • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                  Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:49 AM
                  If you are asking about bracers for women as a dress item? Besides the movies, I think it is also a misunderstanding of what the Italian ladies are wearing in their outfits (from early 16th, or late 15th century), or at least that's the best influence I have found historically. I see outfits with bracers on eBay sellers all the time, and I shake my head in sadness. Yeah, people can offer garments that fit more women with one size that way (there is not a one-size-fits-most that really fits anyone), and sleeves set off a garment nicely, but matching bracers just scream fantasy to anyone who cares. I think I need to add this one to my own Costuming Myths: Busted info.

                  I wish I could come and enjoy your workshop, but I don't have the time to get away from my kids. I wish you well with it.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 10:55 AM
                    Good point Kimiko! I have seen the sleeves you are talking about. Between that and women wanting professions/behaviors for their characters that are more emancipated and modern..... I think that is where we see these for women. in the leather.
                • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                  Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:16 AM
                  Wasn't QEI herself a decent Archer? I don't recall off hand, I know she was an avid equestrienne and did encourage the men of the country to at least know how to shoot bow and arrow should they be called upon to help defend the country.

                  If she was, would bracers be included in the inventories of her possessions? I'm sure more hard-core scholars than I would have perused them and found out what "sporting goods" she possessed.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:33 AM
                    Y'know, from what I recall, women have an easier time rotating the elbow out of the way than men do, so that a bracer may not be needed. With tight dress sleeves, so that nothing is availabhle to catch the string, many women might not need one. Professional archers, of course, are all men and in combat are shooting at a rate that would shock most of us, so the bracer would be part of their ordinary accoutre.
                    • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:57 AM
                      It also occurs to me that on the occasi0ons when women use a bow for sport---the men with her might very well make sure she had a bracer. That we don't see them in pictures doesn't tell us much. If the pictorial evidence is all we have, then you could say women never used a bow. And I think we are pretty sure that isn't so.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                    Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:55 AM
                    The Queen did shoot as did people in the Court, as sport, not as a profession. I guess the specific avenue I am exploring is the historical backup for a peasant or middle class person to wear leather bracers at a market faire as part of their attire for that kind of a day, especially women.

                    I see both sexes at faire wearing shirts with leather bracers and their backstory is that they are an archer. Fine. But would an archer wear "tools of their trade" to a market faire? Would they actually have to drum up hunting business or is that just a thin line excuse in order to get to wear the leather bracers? And even if you gave the nod to 3 guys in the village to go with that look (because you wouldn't have a horde of hunters around), would women have the same look, in the same class with the same profession? I am thinking no. I think it is another thin reason to wear the look they want which comes off as more D&D/fantasy.

                    Now I know this falls under theatrical decision but I am just covering bases because I have a feeling there may be some resistance and as my father the retired lawyer always said "never ask a question without already knowing the answer." Yes that is for witness questioning but for teaching it still keeps you from being blindsided if you have your facts in a row.
                    • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 2:19 PM
                      <<I think it is another thin reason to wear the look they want which comes off as more D&D/fantasy. >>

                      Umm I roll a d20 and...... We're dating ourselves with the D&D refs.
                      • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                        Thu, July 31, 2008 - 4:41 PM
                        DM: Roll to save against fairism.
                        Dre: I got a 13.
                        DM: Not good enough, so this guy is wearing a foxtail and he's staring at you.
                        Dre: I say, "Well met, our subject."
                        DM: He just stares at you. Then says, "What do thou wanteth?"
                        Dre: Painful! Ow!!! Where's my guard?! Where's my guard? Is my guard nearby? I'll just have Gordon eat him.
                        DM: (rolling dice) No, your guard is at least 25 yards away mass wooing a skinny 14 year old with bad teeth.
                        Dre: What!? A 14 year old?!
                        DM: (shrug) It's your guard.
                        Dre: Okay, I'll have Willoughby "accidentally" stab him.
                        DM: Willoughby is making out with one of the maids of honor.
                        Dre: I'm going to have them both horsewhipped. Do I have a hairbrush I can throw? (checks sheet) no, darnit. It's in the other basket.
                        DM: Right now? Let me see your character sheet. . . you don't have a horsewhip.
                        Dre: Someone else will horsewhip them. I need someone to get the guy with the foxtail.
                        DM: (rolling dice) Oh, looks like you got a wandering monster.
                        Dre: What is it?!
                        DM: (consults chart) Danse Macabre.
                        Dre: Argh!
                        DM: Roll saving throw against Loss of Focus.
                        Dre: 6! Damn.
                        DM: Okay, so Danse has your focus.
                        Dre: I'm going to cast a spell.
                        DM: Which one?
                        Dre: Summon Molly.
                        DM: You can only do that once a day, or--
                        Dre: --she invokes "Stay in Trailer with Air Conditioning." Yes, I know.
                        DM: Okay, and it takes a few moments, usually. Roll 2 D6.
                        Dre: 7. That's enough, I have a bonus.
                        DM: How high is your Faire Schmooze Factor?
                        Dre: I have a FSF of 18.
                        DM: That's worth a +3 on Summon Molly. Okay, yeah, it works.
                        Dre: Is the guy still there?
                        DM: Yeah, and he's putting on his archery bracers.
                        Dre: No!
                        DM: But your guard is returning now. And so is the 14 year old. It seems the 14 year old is the guy's girlfriend.
                        Dre: The Guard won't fight him, then. If only Tess were here!
                        DM: She has that Commedia Geas on her.
                        Dre: A lot of the good actors have that. It's like a disease.
                        DM: You're not going to cast, "badmouth show" now, are you?
                        Dre: No, no, I save that for the Poets.
                        DM: Okay, well, the foxtail is casting a spell, you detect it, it's "copy this costume." You notice several of the actors are purchasing foxtails down the street.
                        Dre: Crap! Where's Molly?
                        DM: Not here yet.
                        Dre: She's probably in the middle of a spell like "sarcastic reply to people who just don't get it, do they?" Damnit, I might have to get creative and use the "Pretend the sovereign has to pee" spell, though if it backfires...
                        DM: Yeah, then you risk "Summon costumer," and without any protective runes, you're a goner.
                        • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                          Fri, August 1, 2008 - 8:48 AM
                          OK Pasha, that was F'in brilliant. That was the funniest thing I have read this week! Daaammnn. I am copying this and hanging it in the dressing room. Although the one thing with the costumer re: the pee spell - that would be me. Though Cherie could rain some holy hell since it was her hard work. FUNNY! And kinda true....
                    • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 3:18 PM
                      If they are going to wear bracers.. can we at least make sure hey wear them with the laces on the outside (so the string doesn't catch) one of my foibles... OMG.. does that make me a ren faire history snob?
                      good thing I have a card.
                      • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                        Thu, July 31, 2008 - 3:30 PM
                        I'm a little confused as to why archers would need more than one bracer (the forward arm being the one that could get "twanged")... unless they are shooting ambidextrously?
                        • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                          Thu, July 31, 2008 - 3:41 PM
                          I think the bracer is meant to brace the wrist, (hence the name) as in counteract repetitive stress injuries, not really to protect from twanging. Only an amateur or a newbie consistently thwaps his forearm with the string. And an archer puts stress on both wrists when drawing a bow.
                          • <counteract repetitive stress injuries>
                            My stupid. Yay! I learned something! (They can be taught).

                            More ignorant questions:
                            Also, maybe I was taught different, but I was taught to use the bones in the bow arm and the back muscles for the drawing-the-arrow arm, rather than the wrists. Is this incorrect?

                            ...and, wouldn't wearing the bracer *all the time* indicate that you had a permanent injury/weakness and not be a good recommendation for hiring?
                    • Re: My New Workshop for Northern

                      Thu, July 31, 2008 - 4:20 PM
                      Dre, doesn't this presume facts not in evidence? It assumes that archer was a profession. What does this archer person do all day? Hunt? On whose property? (Poaching?) If they presume to be soldiers who are archers, why in peace loving Willinggraff? (Soldiers at a fair is a big fat fairism, but this is like whacking a beehive with a stick to presume on talking about it, so whatever.)

                      So, before going any further, how about verifying that archers existed as a separate profession. Secondly, we know that some people shot at the butts. We know there was supposedly a compulsory archery on Sunday practice law (though no one has been able to cite the actual law. Year and statute number, please. I dare you, Scott. Otherwise, I'm inclined to think that a lot of scholars are talking out of their collective asses. This is like the SCA making up the historical game of Primero. Ha ha, laughs on you.).

                      Then we look at the fact that if Elizabethans are just hobbyist militia archers, once on Sunday types, are they going to wear bracers all day? Does this make the slightest inkling of sense?

                      Third, look at the character from a "is this an interactive character" Gary Izzo standard of theater. Okay, you're an archer. Now, engage the customer. Is this the best choice for characterization? Is it historical? Logical? Does it work within the theatrical confines of the set up world? Or is this the character who never speaks because there's really no point to the character? "Hi, I'm an archer, would you like to see my bow?" Compare to real world, "Hi, I'm a national guardsman, would you like to see my M16?" What else do you do with it?

                      Then we get to bracers for women. Look, Elizabethans weren't dumb. And they wore necessary equipment when doing certain things, but the rest of the time, are they going to walk about in that equipment? No. Pointless. You clean up to go to fair. In a society with very strongly polarized gender roles, women only use weapons for sport (or small weapons for protection), and then, only upper class. Would a noble woman wear a bracer? Yes, for the shot. As soon as she was done shooting, her two servant ladies would remove it and put it in a basket.

                      So, I don't think there's any evidence extant that establishes that anyone wore bracers other than for the immediate activity of archery, and that it seems dubious that women wore them at all (unless it was Baroness Lumley, I recall she was known for archery).

                      This one gets three red Xes and a bzzzzzzzzzzzt. Fairism. Anyone claiming otherwise has a vested interest in wearing bracers.
                      • Archers & Archery Laws

                        Sat, August 2, 2008 - 12:35 AM
                        Some sort of shared delusion among historians, Pasha?

                        I'm no expert on matters military, but rather focus me on matters of foolery (though I claim no expertise but experience there) but it's my understanding that there are essentially two forces of "Archers" in question here.

                        One variety were professional soldiers such as those aboard the Mary Rose when she went down. What they do all day is the same as any soldier does all day, drills, training, and some other peacetime job to fill the hours between outings where they actually get to shoot someone. Just as modern artillerists are not spending all day shooting at things with their howitzers. They have other tasks to fill the times between the moments spent shooting at things. But by Elizabeth's time there were precious few of these, apparently, which I will get to shortly...

                        The other force of 'archers' are the militias. Think of these as national guardsmen. In times of peace, they are cobblers, inkeepers, tanners, bookbinders, etcetera when they have not been called to an active status to defend the realm against some threat (foreign or domestic).

                        A footnote from an article I was reading on British History Online sheds light on this: "Edmund Yorke, when directed by Queen Elizabeth in 1588 to organize the defences of the City, after specifying the number of halberdiers, pikemen, musketeers, and arquebusiers required, adds that no archers were to be included, because 'on an alarm the multitude will come armed with such weapons' and 'there would be no use in teaching art what is known by nature'; Stow, Surv. of Lond. (ed. Strype), ii, bk. v, 453."

                        And yes, there were a good many .laws governing the practice and proficiency of the proud English longbowmen. At one point in the first decade of our century, arbalests (crossbows) were actually outlawed in Britain to keep them from supplanting the longbow. There was also a law enacted by royal decree in 1363 by Edward III that mandated Sunday archery practice for all men (actually, what it did was ban all other forms of recreation, which amounts to the same thing). I cannot find the exact text of the decree, but I'm still looking. Regardless, see: "Law Courts and Lawyers in the City of London 1300-1550" by Penelope Tucker for more details on how this and later repetitions of the decree were enforced (or not). There's a searchable review at Googlebooks.

                        books.google.com/books

                        All of that's a little vague and I have yet to find the actual text of the decree, though I have found it quoted here and there. When I find a digitized version, I shall post it. In the meantime, the House of Lords has a great website with their journals posted over at British History Online and we can say from that that in February & March of 1542 they discussed the reinforcement of archery practice to distract young men from dicing and other less savory endeavors. Bills were thence presented before the House of Commons for the setting and maintenance of archery grounds without the towns.

                        www.british-history.ac.uk/search.aspx
                        archive.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/200...html

                        Henry VIII was particularly fond of archery and confirmed and revived the old laws with passage of the Archery Act of 1511 and the Cros-Bows Act of the same year.

                        "An Act concerning Shooting in Long Bows. ALL Sorts of Men under the Age of Forty Years shall have Bows and Arrows, and use Shooting; certain Persons excepted", &c. Unlawful Games "shall not be used."

                        Full Parliamentary Records prior to 1660 are not online yet - such as they exist since the fire of 1666 destroyed much - but this nice SCAdian fellow was kind enough to photocopy and copy out some of what does exist pertinent to your question...
                        www.archery.mysaga.net/archlaws.html

                        And an excellent article is to be found here touching on this subject...
                        www.archerylibrary.com/books/..._1.html
                        • Re: Archers & Archery Laws

                          Sat, August 2, 2008 - 12:46 AM
                          Oh! And respective of the 'to wear bracers or not to wear bracers..." question:

                          Are you actually shooting a bow? Are you preparing to shoot a bow? Why? At whom? Otherwise... no.

                          It would be a bit like a welder going into town still wearing his welding helmet and gloves. Not gonna happen. But then, we do it at faire an awful lot. Faire after all is a place where most of us walk around with enough crap on our belts to start a new town or take up the role of peddler (I've been as guilty of this as anyone in the past and have in recent years ditched almost all of it).
                          • Re: Archers & Archery Laws

                            Sat, August 2, 2008 - 1:10 AM
                            I couldn't sleep so I went deeper into the digitized primary docs at British History Online and found the following in Henry VIII's "Treasurer of the Chamber Accounts"

                            Nov, 1531
                            Henry Byrde, yeoman of the King's bows, for bows, arrows, bracers, shooting gloves, and "coyvers," for the King's own use, 18l. 18s. 8d.
                            www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx

                            And Women did wear bracers, or Henry would not have had one made for Anne...

                            (From the King's Privy Purse accounts 1530...)
                            "To Scawseby, for bows, arrows, shafts, broad heads, bracer, and shooting glove for lady Anne, 23s. 4d."

                            And an interesting snippet of an article from the same website specific to the old archery grounds at Regent's Park...

                            "An author in the time of Queen Elizabeth informs us that it was necessary the archer should have a bracer, or close sleeve, to lace upon the left arm; this bracer was to be made of materials sufficiently rigid to prevent any folds that might impede the bow-string when loosed from the hand; to this was to be added a shooting glove, for the protection of the fingers. The bow, he tells us, ought to be made of well-seasoned wood, and formed with great exactness, tapering from the middle towards each end. Bows were sometimes made of brazil, of elm, of ash, and several other woods, but yew was held in most esteem. With regard to the bow-string, the author was undecided which to prefer; he would, therefore, leave the choice to the string-maker. A thin string casts the arrow further, a thick string gives greater certainty. For the arrow, he says, there are three essential parts—the stile, or wand, the feathers, and the head. The stile was not always made of the same sort of wood, but varied as occasion required to suit the different manners of shooting practised by the archers. Our author then gives some instruction as to the management of the bow, and first recommends a graceful attitude.

                            "Another writer says:—"The shooter should stand fairly and upright with his body, his left foot at a conveni