Immigration issues

topic posted Tue, March 25, 2008 - 1:08 PM by  DuckAmuck
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My American public radio station this morning (NPR Morning Edition) told me that Sweden is starting to turn away, and in some cases deport, people trying to move to Sweden.

Sounds interesting to Americans because of our own immigration issues – we keep allowing people from certain places, but we want to kick out people from other places. (certain places = Europe and Asia; other places = Latin America and South America)

So I though maybe this would be an interesting cross-culture topic for discussion.
posted by:
DuckAmuck
Illinois
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  • Re: Immigration issues

    Tue, March 25, 2008 - 1:34 PM
    Ok, let's be honest. Perhaps it's about time, we take in way too many immigrants in Sweden these days. More then any other country in Europe.
    • Re: Immigration issues

      Tue, March 25, 2008 - 2:32 PM
      The report I heard, they got a quote from a lady from ?Flynn? who said something along the lines of, "yeah, just go to Sweden, everyone's always so nice, we'll just let everyone in. Enough is enough!" (And when I replay it in my head, she speak with an Irish accent. Stupid American brain.)

      What I didn't catch is whether it's *certain* immigrants, or ALL immigrants.

      (As I stated, in America, we only have a problem with certain ones…)
      • This post was deleted by Christer
      • Re: Immigration issues

        Wed, March 26, 2008 - 1:09 AM
        *edit*

        "i deleted my own post to modify it a bit and include the text from the article in it"


        To take in so many immigrants, creates problems.

        No, i'm not a racist, and i'm not against to help people either. But we take in way to many refugees in Sweden.

        Read this..........

        Sweden has welcomed immigrants with open arms for decades but now it is grappling with how to integrate them into society, especially in the southern town of Malmoe amid a massive influx of refugees. Once a thriving industrial town with full employment, Malmoe has seen many of its plants shut down since the 1990s. That, combined with a never-ending stream of foreigners arriving, has led to rising juvenile delinquency and rampant unemployment.

        Of the town's 280,000 inhabitants, a third are foreigners and 60,000 are Muslims. "We are an open city. We see these immigrants as a resource for our society," Malmoe's Social Democratic mayor Ilmar Reepalu told AFP. "The problem is that we have welcomed too many immigrants at the same time," he said, pointing out that last year Malmoe took in more Iraqi asylum-seekers than Germany, Spain, France and Italy combined.

        Reepalu said 5,000 refugees a year seek asylum in Malmoe, Sweden's third largest city behind Stockholm and Gothenburg, though it is really only able to take in 1,500. The result is many overcrowded apartments as refugees flock to immigrant-heavy areas and an employment rate that has dropped to around 50 percent. Swedish Integration Minister Nyamko Sabuni -- a Muslim who came to Sweden when she was 12 and the first African to become a member of government in the country -- insists that the only way for immigrants to integrate into society is to learn the language and get a job.

        "It is crucial that immigrants get in contact with the labour market as soon as possible after receiving their residence permit. This has to be combined with language courses," she told AFP. While immigrants to Sweden in the late 1950s and 1960s came as much-needed labourers, the trend has in recent decades shifted toward political refugees, according to Yves Zenou, an economics professor at Stockholm University specialised in integration problems.

        "Immigrants to Sweden have become political refugees. First there were people from South America, then Iran, Afghanistan and now Iraq," he said. "They come seeking asylum and not work," he said. He recalled the Scandinavian country's generous humanitarian policies which provide immigrants with everything they need once they arrive. "The famous welfare state takes care of everything on a social level. But that's the limitation of the system -- the country cannot provide any solution when it comes to jobs, which is the key to integration," he said.

        And the situation risks getting worse.

        New arrivals tend to settle where they already have friends and family members, leading Swedes to desert some areas, such as Malmoe's southeastern neighbourhood of Rosengaard. "When a lot of people from one ethnic group concentrate together, you always see the same phenomenon everywhere: they become marginalised, with high unemployment and crime rates," Zenou said. "That's the case in the United States, France and Britain and now in Sweden, although at different levels," he stressed.

        If nothing is done, he said, the situation in Sweden could explode within 10 or 20 years, as it already has in other parts of Europe. Immigrants in Sweden follow a well-established pattern, he explained. Children grow up seeing their parents unemployed and socially excluded and inherit their frustration. Compared to slums and projects in France or the US, Rosengaard looks like a nice community. But it stands out in a Swedish context.

        On a recent visit, veiled women walk behind the men, casting quick glances at their husbands before refusing to speak to AFP's reporter. At the local mall, more Arabic is heard than Swedish and 28 of the 30 shopkeepers are immigrants. The neighbourhood is clean, with plenty of greenery providing a nice backdrop for the modern brick buildings. But sprouting from every balcony or rooftop is a satellite dish, broadcasting programs for faraway countries. For the time being, crime levels in Rosengaard are manageable, Malmoe police spokesman Lars Foerstell said. "We do have a problem with youth criminality, with young people who commit different kinds of crimes," citing minor robberies, assaults, gang fights or rocks thrown at police cars.

        "But it doesn't happen everyday."

        However, the neighbourhood is stigmatized and even the slightest of incidents is reported in the press. "The media often make it sound very much worse than it is," he said. Meanwhile, Bejzat Becirov, the head of Malmoe's Islamic Centre and mosque, Scandinavia's first when it opened in 1984, continues to spread his message of tolerance and integration, as he has for 45 years. "We have accepted a part of this country, we have accepted its rules and we want to be a part of it," he said, echoing Sabuni's insistence that integration comes through the language.

        Discrimination is not a serious problem, he said.

        Rather, "the biggest enemy of integration is the satellite dishes which broadcast TV programmes from countries where some children were even not born."

        www.breitbart.com/article.php
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Immigration issues

    Tue, March 25, 2008 - 5:30 PM
    in america dont get me started.
    but its a two sided coin
    • Re: Immigration issues

      Wed, March 26, 2008 - 1:59 AM
      I don't know. I don't think borders are so important. People should be documented and pay taxes. I suppose a quota system might not be so bad as long it is just based on some unbiased algorithm and not some haters deciding some people are not the right kind of people to let in. In America, white people get all freaked out about Latinos moving there and in Europe white people get all freaked out about the Muslim people moving in here. Please note that Finland was ranked sixth with regard to integration ability. As a person of color, who immigrated from one land of blancos to another land of blancos, I'd say that one does this in the hopes of 1. escaping some narrow mindedness &/or disagreeable political system & 2 with the hopes of coming into the new society, adapting, building a new life & contributing to society. What do you people think those immigrants have in mind? Sounds like you think the worse of them. Of course, other people have other motives for moving away from someplace and to another place, but I like to think they have the best intentions. Stockholm was very lovely. It is so very cosmopolitan. I think Helsinki is getting the same way and they feel dynamic. Another thing is that sociological studies (at least in the USA) are really showing that the idea that the immigrant is more likely than native born individuals to commit crimes is bogus. It is a myth. See Robert Sampson ( Open Doors Don't Invite Criminals: Is Increased Immigration Behind the Drop in Crime?, New York Times, March 11, 2006, p. A27 (OP-ED). Do Illegal Immigrants Burden the Justice System? NPR Morning Edition, April 27, 2006; Immigrant Effects: Latinos Nix Violence, Harvard Magazine, September-October, 2006, pp. 15-16; Do Immigrants Make us Safer?, by Eyal Press, New York Times Magazine (December 3, 2006).. Immigrants have a stake in doing well and being a productive law-abiding citizen so as to improve their situation for themselves and mostly their future generations. Sociologist find that is is rather the exposure to the society that increases the risk of committing crimes.
      So, if one believes that immigrants are these delinquents who come to a precious sweet mild mannered country to do their evil deeds, one is totally wrong. Something happens while living in that country with a people who aren't so sweet or mild mannered. The exposure to the society in which one is living starts to enhance the risk for delinquent behavior. Welcome to social constructionism. So, again, linking a high crime rate to a high concentration of immigrants is a fallacy. There are several predictive factors which lead to increased risk of delinquency but none of them have anything to do with being an immigrant. See The Cambridge Study in Delinquent Development (Farrington & West, 1990; Farrington, 1995).
      Plus, countries really need to take in new people (new blood) to mix. A nation cannot go on too long being homogenous, biologically speaking, without running the serious risk of hideous or tragic genetic consequences. I mean, the gene pool has to be opened up. Now, maybe that isn't so good for the idea of nationhood but for the idea of continuing our species it is quite necessary.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Immigration issues

        Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:30 AM
        in america, illegal immigration is a problem. the whole concern isnt that people are freaked out about others other than their own.
        its they come over illegally, use fake documents, dont pay taxes and use our welfare system.

        now dont get me wrong, you want to become a citizen, thats great, no problem. do it the proper way.
      • Re: Immigration issues

        Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:59 AM
        It seems like, nearly everywhere, the problem isn't the immigrants themselves, and it isn't how they're treated.

        It's like, in the younger days of America. I'm Irish, I'll move to America. Hey, here's a nice Irish neighborhood, I'll live here. *a few days later* Hey, no one in this Irish neighborhood works. I'm not working. There aren't jobs in this Irish neighborhood. But it's a nice Irish neighborhood, so I'll stay here anyway because I'm Irish.

        Like, whether they want to or not, people from other countries are segregating themselves from the rest of society by choosing to live where everyone else is just like them. If that's what you want to do, why move to a country where people are not just like you? I understand if you're moving to live with your family, you'll want to stay with your family, but couldn't your family live somewhere else?

        The REAL problem Americans have with Mexicans, sure they're undocumented and they use the welfare system, but honestly the biggest problem is that they're sending most of their money to Mexico. They're not spending it in the US. That's American money, we expect you to spend it in America. We expect you to pay the government in the form of taxes, we expect you to pay your American landlord, we expect you to buy American food, American gas, American clothes, all at the local American stores. We want you to buy American crap you don't need, because that's what Americans do. (well, Chinese crap you don't need, from American stores.)
        • Re: Immigration issues

          Wed, March 26, 2008 - 7:29 AM
          "It seems like, nearly everywhere, the problem isn't the immigrants themselves, and it isn't how they're treated. "

          If you checked the video, immigrants isn't always a good thing, we take in way too many immigrants for such small country and that creates lots of problems.
          • Re: Immigration issues

            Wed, March 26, 2008 - 7:34 AM
            1994 my city was practically a big refugee camp for people from Bosnia. A few years later we got plenty of refugees from Kosovo. I have nothing against people from other countries, but i don't think we should take care of ALL of them. Our neighbour countries Denmark, Finland and Norway hardly take in any of them.
            • Re: Immigration issues

              Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:09 AM
              The problem is, these people have to go somewhere… the other countries probably think it might as well be Sweden, even if Sweden thinks it's someone else's turn.
              • Re: Immigration issues

                Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:33 AM
                We have done that, for about 50 years now. I seriously think it someone elses turn.

                www.scb.se/templates/pr...___196189.asp

                www.iht.com/articles/ap/...migration.php
                • Re: Immigration issues

                  Wed, March 26, 2008 - 12:58 PM
                  Some of you sound racist and quite ill informed. It also seems like some of you are making a lot of accusations but really don't have any facts or studies to back up what you say. You really don't sound convincing so much as you sound like your in hysterics. Things are changing and none of anybody's complaining, lies, or scapegoating is going to change. Try acceptance, tolerance, and friendship. The problem is not the immigrant it is the circumstances they are kept in.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Immigration issues

                    Wed, March 26, 2008 - 1:17 PM
                    Didn't Bill Clinton abolish the welfare system? That was 1995, oh and immigrants were not the problem then. It was singe mothers with children and black people that Americans were freaking out about. The dole is dead in America. Wasn't it some years ago that California (at least) passed a proposition that made in necessary to show proof of residence to obtain any services. Yes, in 1994 but then it was challenged and in the end during Davis's brief time he killed it. Come on, Mexicanos send most of their money away? Really, I doubt it. It takes a lot of money to live in America. So, actually they do contribute to the economy. They aren't living in some self sustaining vacuum.
                    • Re: Immigration issues

                      Wed, March 26, 2008 - 1:27 PM
                      I'm sorry. You seem to be taking my complaint about the American government as something I actually think. That's not the case at all.

                      The story the government sells us is that illegal Latin American immigrants are causing an increase in crime, and illegal Latin American immigrants are causing an increase in our health care prices (as if the health care providers and insurance scammers have nothing to do with it), AND that illegal Latin American immigrants send most of their money out of country and don't spend it here on important things like taxes.

                      Really what it comes down to in America is that the government is embarassed that they can neither track nor end illegal immigration. And when the American government is embarassed, there's hell to pay for whomever they feel is responsible.

                      I'm sorry that I wasn't clear in my previous post.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Immigration issues

                    Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:27 PM
                    First, excuse me, but i see red when i hear that kind of arguments Georgiane. This is a debate, right? When this debate is over, we'll forget what's happened here, Right? :)

                    To begin with, i have lots of more experience of immigrants in sweden then you, because i live here. Sweden takes in about hundred times as much immigrants as Finland.

                    Did you see the video to begin with?

                    youtube.com/watch

                    That's the reality in Malmoe and FACTS. Perhaps you should live in that reality for a while before making comments about racism?

                    Do you think that the situation in Malmoe is good?

                    It isn't?

                    Why?

                    Isn't the swedes tolerant enought?

                    Or is it the immigrants themselves?

                    Let me tell you............

                    We had lots of kosovo albanians in my city in a big refugee camp. Ask those who live in my city what they thought about those kosovo albanians. The whole area looked like one big junkyard with car parts and litter everywhere. And they were steeeling. Some of them moved to other areas of my city and a kosovo albanian who lived next door to some people i personally know had his whole appartment full of stolen property from several burglar raids in peoples houses. He got several years in prison for that.

                    Kosovo albanians have a very bad reputation here because of THEIR OWN BEHAVIOUR. Sure you can try to be tolerant, until you get your property stolen or until you get beaten up.

                    I speaked with a kosovo albanian, he had been on vacation in Germany with his family. And he said, Kosovo is the best country, then Germany and then Sweden. I answered, why do you live in Sweden in that case? He got quiet.

                    And NO, all kosovol albanias were not that bad, some of them were quite nice. I don't judge people by their race, or where they are coming from. I judge people by THEIR OWN ACTIONS. So don't call me a racist.

                    After the kosovo albanians we got norwegians in the same area. Now the whole area is clean and tidy, we have no trouble with burglar raids anymore either. In fact, all the norwegians behave very well and have got a good reputation in my city.

                    Are those facts good enought? Because that's a report from the REALITY where i live.

                    We also had lots of people from Iraq, they behaved much better and got a quite good reputation. Several of those iraqis became good friends to me. Now most of them has moved to other parts of Sweden.

                    Perhaps you should try some swedish reality for yourself, and then make a comment again?

                    There's good immigrants and there's bad immigrants, no question about that. I have lots of more experience then you about people from former Yugoslavia for exemple.

                    Because of some people has similar thoughts as you, it is a bad thing to even put up a swedish flag, in Sweden. Oooh, those poor immigrants, if we put up a swedish flag in Sweden, we are all racists. I think that we treat immigrants better here then any other country in the world. That's why they are coming here. Perhaps Finland can take over all immigrants for some years? It would be a good expreience for you, i think.

                    Let me tell you the truth about the situation here. Most immigrants CAN return to their homeland. It's no war in Kosovo or Bosnia anymore. But they choose to stay in Sweden, why? In Sweden they get cars, computers, cable tv, free money and LOTS of things they never would get in their home country. Many of those immigrants are rich when they are coming to Sweden, YET they take advantage of the generous swedish immigrant system. Okey, that's not their own fault, but the swedish politicans, i'm aware of that.

                    Again, we take in way to many immigrants for being such small country, we can't deal with such huge amounts of immigrants. It creates lots of problems. I have nothing against to help people, but we, alone, can not help half the world, can we? Time for Finland to take over for the next 10 years?

                    If you move to Sweden, try Rinkeby or Rosengård.

                    query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html

                    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseng%C3%A5rd
                    • Re: Immigration issues

                      Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:52 PM
                      • Re: Immigration issues

                        Thu, March 27, 2008 - 12:05 AM
                        The situation in Sweden is that............

                        My own experiences from my hometown.

                        You can't say anything to an immigrant, if you do, you're a heavy racist or some kind of new Hitler. If an immigrant steels my bike, i don't dare to say anything. To put up a swedish flag is seen as racism by some swedes. Immigrants gets several advantages that we don't. New TV, Computer, Car, and they don't even have a job. I can't do the same. No wonder that Sweden is a good country for immigrants. Some of them refuse to be swedish citizens, they refuse to speak swedish or even trying to fit in.

                        That's why i'm being a bit upset when i hear someone (no matter who) tell us to be "understanding and tolerant". It's easy to say when you don't live here. After some time here, you would think different. You have to experience the situation yourself to really understand what it's like. People are getting more racist in Sweden and immigrant hostile parties like the Sweden Democrates are getting more and more supporters. I'm not surprised, i think there's lots of anger inside many swedes, even if they don't say anything, in public.

                        In fact, we take in more iraqis then USA, that says a lot of Swedens generous immigrant policy, right? The government takes in more immigrants then we can handle, no jobs and lack of support are the results. And where's the support from rest of Europe?

                        But all things aren't like that off course. We have lots of immigrants that both works and fits in very well in the swedish society. I know plenty of great immigrants. I have friends from Iraq, Chile, India, Bosnia, Kosovo, Hungary, Libya and Russia thanks to our generous immigration policy.

                        Sweden has got lots of new and exciting culture in just about every single area from food to music. Sweden has becoming more multicultural and international thanks to all immigrants.

                        So, don't missunderstand me, i'm no racist and i don't hate immigrants. I judge people by their actions, and nothing else. The problem isn't the immigrants but the government. They are far to generous and takes in much more immigrants then we can handle in this small country, and that creates problems.

                        Do you understand better know why i'm getting a bit upset when someone, who don't live here or even has experienced the situation here tell us to be undestanding and tolerant, else we are racists? It's not that simple. And in some cases it IS the immigrants fault, some of them are not nice at all and shouldn't be here in the first place, especially not criminal immigrants. You must understand that ALL immigrants that comes to Sweden are no nice angels who need understanding and sympathy for every bad thing they do. In some cases a quick deportation to their homecountry would be the best alternative. We don't need more criminals or violent people here. Let the good ones stay and send home the criminal and violent immigrants.

                        And again, remember, a debate is a debate, and nothing else. ;) :)
                        • Re: Immigration issues

                          Thu, March 27, 2008 - 7:18 AM
                          "In fact, we take in more iraqis then USA, that says a lot of Swedens generous immigrant policy"

                          Actually, as an American reading that, it says more about the lousy American policy. We claim we want freedom for all Iraqis… but just not here in America. Stay there, in Iraq, and hope it gets better. I'm sure things will work out for you. We've got our hands full with the Mexicans, we just can't deal with you right now. (Even though we've destroyed your country and aren't dealing very well with putting it back together.)

                          I had no idea when I brought it up this would be such a hot issue.
                          • Re: Immigration issues

                            Thu, March 27, 2008 - 7:39 AM
                            I'll have to agree in most of what you're saying Penny.

                            And yes, immigration is a hot potatoe in Sweden.

                            I'm used to take part in hot debates, perhaps i'm a bit too agressive in this debate? Remember one thing, when i take part in a debate of some kind i expect all people involved to be a bit agressive and arguing for their cause. After the debate, we're friends again. The most boring thing i can think of is a lifeless sunday school debate, right?

                            :)

                            • Re: Immigration issues

                              Thu, March 27, 2008 - 8:13 AM
                              My biggest issue with this particular debate is that I can't make sense.

                              This is the one issue where all the ridiculous crazy things I think about how the world should work crash into each other in a huge fireball of "I don't know what the answer is!"

                              Every little piece has an easy answer. When you look at the bigger picture, the easy answer for this one causes more problems for that little piece of problem, and so on.
                              • Re: Immigration issues

                                Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:37 AM
                                Sure it makes sense. Thanks to this praticular debate we all now more about the situation in Sweden and USA. We also know why.

                                In Swedens case it's simple.

                                We take care of way too many immigrants each year, our neighbours in Europe doesn't do much to help us. As i said in the beginning of this debate, the problem isn't the immigrants, the problem is the quantity of them. We can't deal with such many immigrants.

                                How to solve the problem?

                                Help Sweden and take care of more immigrants.
                                • Re: Immigration issues

                                  Thu, March 27, 2008 - 5:27 PM
                                  this is a hot issue indeed.

                                  Penny, I did misunderstand your post. So, I did think you were expressing those sentiments. Thank you for clarifying, I am sorry I jumped to conclusions and am grateful for your clarification. I am Mexican-American. So, it is a very touchy subject for me; even though, my family has lived in the USA for nearly 100 years & we are really quite integrated. Plus, I am an immigrant to Finland. So, I can't help but think that this is what some people think of me or my friends when they first see me.

                                  Christer, I wasn't really talking about the Sweden immigration; just aspects of immigration myths in general. I was more referring to USA immigration because of what was said about Mexicans by Penny, which I now know were not her opinions. I should have known when she mentioned she listened to NPR. So, yep, this is only a debate and it shall be forgotten, fo sho.

                                  Here, we are talking about a few different issues: one is of illegal immigration (i.e. undocumented workers) more common in the USA, asylum seekers (refugees), apparently the issue of people from Kosovo in Sweden & the issues of integration practices according to the Migrant Integration Policy Index for European countries. Without, discussing UN or individuals immigration policy right now; I just would say that, I am more inclined to still be very sympathetic to the person who has had to flee their home country because of war, famine, persecution, or ethnic cleansing. This is a most unfortunate and tragically traumatic situation to have to go through. Most refugees end up staying in a country closer to their home country rather than seeking asylum elsewhere. So, it is a smaller percentage of refugees that are even able to get into Western Europe.

                                  Now, I haven't had time to go through any of the links which were posted. However, I have read data from the United Nations refugee agency and the Organization for economic co-operation and development & this Migrant integration policy index. So, I can see that now the number of asylum seeker applications to Sweden's has gone up. Those are the applications to Sweden. So, how can any other countries influence asylum seekers and make them pick another country to apply to? In some countries it has dropped. If Sweden takes more immigrants in, it is because they had previously been able to sustain them. Small countries with few resources cannot do the same as Sweden. Nor, can countries with a small population (5 million), like Finland take more than it can handle. Plus, maybe prospective immigrants take one look at the Finnish language and decide not to apply here. Swedish, by far, is a much easier language to read. :p

                                  The reasons why a country takes in a number of immigrants is based on UN policy in conjunction with states, NGOs and others. “It is generally understood that the impact of hosting refugees is most strongly felt in countries with limited resources. Under the assumption that countries with strong economies, large national population or space are more likely to be capable of absorbing refugees, UNHCR determines the ability or capacity to host refugees by applying three parameters: the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per capita1, the size of the national population and total land area.” (2006 UNHCR STATISTICAL YEARBOOK, page 76).

                                  Anyway, what can be done is this: “It is obviously beyond the immediate power of the EU to eradicate the root causes of all migration. But over time, if the EU wants to reduce migratory pressure, it will have to provide more development aid, debt relief, and fair trade, and it will need to be better equipped to prevent conflict and keep the peace in trouble spots around the world.” (BEN HALL, CENTRE FOR EUROPEAN REFORM, LONDON, “Immigration in the European Union: problem or solution?”, (Prospect Magazine, June 2000 / OECD Observer No 221-222, 2000). I mention that, since one of the largest group of immigrants to Sweden as well as to other countries are asylum seekers.

                                  Again, no comment on the specific SWE examples of Kosovans, because that is a deeper sociological issue which I don’t have time to delve into. …and no, I haven’t had time to watch the vid. I will tomorrow. In the end, I am a leftist, socially liberal, progressive type of person. So, my ideology still leads me to presume a much different reason for the examples given in this thread: which I still maintain would need to be examined guided by the principles of social constructionism. I just can't accept the way of thinking that says they are from Kosovo, they are immigrants, their living area is full of junk, and they commit lots of crimes. I think maybe, there are problems in the social climate or structure, maybe in the local city government or policy, so, the environment should be examined for a cause. Nor can I go along with the idea that presumes 'we give them lots of rewards and welfare and that is why they move here.' Rather, I think they move there because, maybe their house was bombed out, and half their family died or were executed and secretly buried in a mass grave.
                                  • Re: Immigration issues

                                    Thu, March 27, 2008 - 10:20 PM
                                    Well Georgiane! :)

                                    I agree, they move to Sweden because of their house was bombed, or they was subject for torture or similar, that's correct. But remember most people who really need to come here don't either have the money or the contacts to be able to make that trip to Sweden.

                                    (what i meant was)

                                    When they have lived here for some time they don't want to move back again because they get a much higher living standard in Sweden. They can take a vacation in their old country but many of them choose to stay in Sweden because of what i just said.

                                    And.......many immigrants have heard about how awesome Sweden is to live in by people they know, rumours, or by relatives. Therefore they choose Sweden before any other country. Ooooh, Sweden is so great, they get everything for free, and Swedes are soooo nice. I have heard it myself several times by immigrants. (sad)

                                    You must understand that the situation in Sweden are very special and different from everything else, we have changed rapidly as a country for the past 15 years. It has been a one big culture chock for most Swedes.

                                    And........

                                    I am for the most a bit aggressive in debates, a habit from Flashback (swedish forum with about 200.000 members). So don't missunderstand anything i post in this thread. I will try to make you understand the situation in Sweden and why this subject is so sensitive for many swedes (me among them), okey?. :)

                                    Let me tell you a small story Georgiane..........

                                    1994 we got enormous amounts of refugees in my city, refugees from the war in Bosnia. Many of them were mental ill as a cause of the war. They had seen their relatives got shot by soldiers etc. I especially remember a seven years old little boy. He sat all day long at the playground with a small cassette radio shouting, fuck, kill, kill, dead, satan, kill.......while he recorded it. I thought.......i don't want to meet that boy when he's ten years older.

                                    I also remember when a gang of bosnians spitted on the swedish flag after they managed to take it down. So much for their new country...........

                                    And again.......NO all of them wasn't like that and i still got some Bosnian friends from that time.

                                    Still, Bosnians behaved much better then the kosovo albanians we got several years later. I think that kosovo albanians has got the worst reputation of all refugees, so far. Not because of that swedes were intolerant, but because of their own behaviour. The invasion of gypsys two years later wasn't that huge success either.

                                    The point is.......you or anyone don't know NOTHING until you have experienced the situation for yourself.

                                    You must understand that the situation in Sweden is VERY different from Finland for exemple. Sometimes it feels like sitting on a time bomb. When people release all their hidden anger, i don't want to be around. The official attitude is not the same as what awful many people really are thinking, but don't dare to say. Swedes have been hard stressed with such huge amounts of refugees. The official attitude is to take care of all those refugees, but that's a long way from what many swedes really are thinking. Even the people you at least expect to have racist thoughts, has. I have been very surprised many times by now.

                                    It has been a huge culture chock for all swedes under the 90's until now. And we take in more immigrants for each year. Sooner or later it's gonna explode and something real bad will happend. I can tell you that awful many swedes, in all ages have racist thoughts of some kind about immigrants because of, there's "TO MANY OF THEM", we can't handle so many immigrants at once. Whole cities becomes foreign cities with almost NO SWEDES living there. Is that a good thing? NO it isn't because it creates even more tension between swedes and immigrants.

                                    So.......

                                    What we need isn't "nice advices" of "how to treat immigrants". What we need is, to be unloaded.

                                    Time to help us?
                                    • Re: Immigration issues

                                      Fri, March 28, 2008 - 6:25 AM
                                      I hate to say it Christer, but if most folks have already decided they want to move to Sweden, the only way to keep them out is for Sweden to say no.

                                      The rest of us can't make them say no… at least not without offering to take folks of Sweden's hands. (I don't see the US doing that any time soon.)
                                      • Re: Immigration issues

                                        Fri, March 28, 2008 - 6:43 AM
                                        Yep, i agree!

                                        Iraqis choose Sweden as new home

                                        Halim Ibrahim and his family are among the half of all Iraqis who choose Sweden as their destination when they flee to Europe from their war-torn homeland. "We wanted to get as far away from Iraq as possible," said 50-year-old Halim, standing outside his ground floor flat in southern Sweden. "Everyone wants to go to Sweden, it has always been good to Iraqis. They respect human rights here. I wanted my children to grow up in a safe country, that's why we chose Sweden," said Halim.

                                        Read more here.........

                                        news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6275864.stm

                                        Iraqi Refugees in Sweden

                                        An interesting article in The Local (Swedish news in English) recently is about refugees from Iraq to Sweden. It seems that Iraqis fleeing their war-torn homeland choose Sweden above all other European countries. There are now nearly 80,000 Iraqis living in Sweden, and at present there are hundreds of new applications for asylum from Iraqis every month (over 2500 in the first six months of 2006). There is no indication that this trend will change in the immediate future. These Iraqis are said to come from all religious and ethnic backgrounds. Iraqis now constitute the second largest group of immigrants to Sweden after Finns, who number over 170,000.

                                        Read more here...........

                                        holfies.wordpress.com/2006/12...-sweden/

                                        Sweden Democrats: pay immigrants to leave

                                        Immigrants should be paid to leave Sweden. That's according to new proposals from Sweden Democrat members of Malmö City Council. But Social Democrats say the proposal would be divisive.

                                        Read more here.......

                                        www.thelocal.se/5595/20061123/
                                        • Re: Immigration issues

                                          Fri, March 28, 2008 - 6:46 AM
                                          Whaddayanow!

                                          Sweden Begins Sending Iraqi Refugees Home

                                          March 25, 2008 · Human rights groups in Sweden are outraged that the government has decided to send Iraqi refugees back to Iraq. Sweden has taken in more than 20,000 Iraqi refugees since the war began — more than any other Western country. The Swedish government is citing an improved security situation in Iraq as the reason for returning the refugees.

                                          www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php
                                        • Re: Immigration issues

                                          Fri, March 28, 2008 - 6:52 AM
                                          Shit, why don't you guys just send the Finns home. Finland's a lot closer, and not currently fighting a homefront war.
                                          • Re: Immigration issues

                                            Fri, March 28, 2008 - 7:32 AM
                                            Well, the finns are kind of "part of sweden". We have a very special relationship to Finland that is hard to explain for anyone outside Scandinavia. Sweden without finns wouldn't be Sweden in some kind of strange way. :D

                                          • Re: Immigration issues

                                            Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:22 AM
                                            It is a wonder that Finns don't come back home from Sweden based upon the daily discrimination and racism they face there. However, they get paid a lot more there than they would in Finland and that's apparently incentive enough to stay. The relationship Swedes have with Finns is that of the oppressor. Sweden invaded Finland long ago until when Russia attacked Sweden and took it over. The Russians, unlike, the Swedes, allowed Finland more autonomy and freedom than they ever dreamed possible under Swedish control. Until finally, Finland, declared its independence in 1917. When the Swedes were in control they used something like forced conscription to make the Finns go fight the Swedish kings wars.

                                            I remember a long time ago, when I was in university for a degree in anthropology; we were reading about different types of societies. Gosh, I think it was around 1989 or so. Anyway, the society that I thought was the best, and the country that captured my attention and made me feel like there were better systems and places than the one I was living in (the USA), was Sweden. From that time, it was my dream to move to Sweden. I still actually have been forming a plan to work in Sweden for a year at least after I qualify. Of course, I will come back to Finland but I just wanted to live abroad for a bit. So, now I see that Finland has a superior societal model than Sweden and although that is not why I live here, it is why I am so pleased to be living here.

                                            Hmm, I have lived in extremely culturally diverse neighborhoods, on purpose, because I love the eclectic atmosphere. In that city, Long Beach, lived nearly every immigrant group you could imagine. Over there they form little enclaves that I feel are really rich & interesting. I could go have borscht at the Russian deli for one meal, or some soul food (chicken & waffles), to Thai or Cambodian food. I love ethnic diversity. That is why it is such a shock to travel to some parts of Finland and find myself the only non-Finn, or rather to see that nobody is black, or middle eastern, or Asian. One of my favorite pastimes is to drive through downtown L. A. and see the changing store fronts and road signs as I drift through one ethnic neighborhood after another. So, living in a neighborhood full of people from different countries doesn't bother me in the least. Nor, does the idea of living in an area where there are gangs and if you were the wrong color you may get shot. It just doesn't bother me. It doesn't scare me and it doesn't worry me.

                                            Another thing is that, I spent my first three years in Finland in immigrant school. :) So, I was learning how to be a good Finnish citizen as well as language, history, social structure, culture, government, etc. In those classes were other immigrants from many different parts of the world. It was an anthropological dream for me to be able to go through that. I made friends from Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, China, Russia, Estonia, Uganda, and other places. It was nice that they didn't hate me for being American, since America's actions in some cases were responsible for their flight. All good people, it would be a great betrayal of justice if any of them or their families were forced to go back home, especially if there was still war raging in their country. Now, I am in an international programme where again, I am friends with people from other nations. Anyway, I experience this situation as an immigrant. So, I can never imagine things in the same way as many people do because I don't have a sense of nationhood, patriotism, entitlement, ownership or possessiveness. I am just me hanging out here for awhile. I am not into accumulating wealth, property, or status. If things seem to be getting 'bad' in my neighborhood, I would either move away, or try to work with the community in an effort to find the root cause of problems and correct them.

                                            This was only the first year that Sweden was the number one destination, or took in the most immigrants of countries in Europe. In previous years it has been other countries; Austria, Germany, the UK, & France. Still the top receiving nation in the world is the USA. Sweden is second and France is third. Mind you this is only the industrialized nations we are talking about. I think actually Pakistan is the number one nation in the world for asylum seekers. It is Sweden's turn now. Give those other EU countries a rest. You can't complain after it only being your first year at number one. That is so unfair to Austria, Germany, the UK and France.
                                            Besides, while the number of asylum requests went up by 49% in Sweden, in Greece it increased by 105%, in Turkey by 68% and in Poland by 61%. So, see another reason why Swedes should complain. Imagine how the Greeks must feel.
                                            • Re: Immigration issues

                                              Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:28 AM
                                              I will quote you Georgiane. :)

                                              >> It is a wonder that Finns don't come back home from Sweden based upon the daily discrimination and racism they face there. However, they get paid a lot more there than they would in Finland and that's apparently incentive enough to stay. The relationship Swedes have with Finns is that of the oppressor. Sweden invaded Finland long ago until when Russia attacked Sweden and took it over. The Russians, unlike, the Swedes, allowed Finland more autonomy and freedom than they ever dreamed possible under Swedish control. Until finally, Finland, declared its independence in 1917. When the Swedes were in control they used something like forced conscription to make the Finns go fight the Swedish kings wars. <<


                                              Can i ask you a small question Georgiane? Have you actually been in Sweden and met those finns? Because it differs a lot from the situation in Sweden. I know plenty of finns and none of them are treated bad, or FEEL that they are treated bad.

                                              Perhaps you could talk with some finns who actually live here and ask them how they are treated?
                                              • Re: Immigration issues

                                                Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:30 AM
                                                I will quote you again Georgiane!

                                                >> This was only the first year that Sweden was the number one destination, or took in the most immigrants of countries in Europe. In previous years it has been other countries; Austria, Germany, the UK, & France. Still the top receiving nation in the world is the USA. Sweden is second and France is third. Mind you this is only the industrialized nations we are talking about. I think actually Pakistan is the number one nation in the world for asylum seekers. It is Sweden's turn now. Give those other EU countries a rest. You can't complain after it only being your first year at number one. That is so unfair to Austria, Germany, the UK and France.
                                                Besides, while the number of asylum requests went up by 49% in Sweden, in Greece it increased by 105%, in Turkey by 68% and in Poland by 61%. So, see another reason why Swedes should complain. Imagine how the Greeks must feel. <<

                                                You speaking of USA, France etc............

                                                NOW, if you compare such countries to Sweden, what differs?

                                                The population perhaps?
                                                • Re: Immigration issues

                                                  Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:33 AM
                                                  We are about 9.5 million citizens in Sweden.

                                                  NOW, don't count the immigrants, then we aren't much bigger then Finland.
                                                  • Re: Immigration issues

                                                    Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:43 AM
                                                    I will quote myself............

                                                    >> Well, the finns are kind of "part of sweden". We have a very special relationship to Finland that is hard to explain for anyone outside Scandinavia. Sweden without finns wouldn't be Sweden in some kind of strange way. :D <<

                                                    Does that say something of how finns are treated in Sweden? I wouldn't say those things about ANY other immigrants. I suggest that you find out more about how finns live in Sweden before making comments about how bad they are treated here. Okey?

                                                    I know plenty of finns and none of them are treated bad.

                                                    For exemple, why do you think that retired finns don't move back to Finland IF they are so bad treated here?

                                                    A hint!

                                                    It's not about money...............

                                                    Perhaps they like to live in Sweden (is a wild guess)
                                              • Re: Immigration issues

                                                Fri, March 28, 2008 - 9:57 AM
                                                I have an uncle in law who has lived in SWE for 40 years but won't leave because of his children. So, I've heard stuff from him. Another relative in law had to be taken to SWE during a war in FI for some time they told about some stuff. Many other incidences are reported in Finnish newspapers about Finns in Sweden who suffer discriminations such as the nurses who were forbidden to speak Finnish together or the similar incident with the girls soccer team.

                                                Yes I know the population difference. It shouldn't be that Sweden gets more immigrants than they can bare. Since, there are all kinds of UN and EU policies that go into deciding how many each country should take. I already mentioned that.

                                                Oh so something else, last summer Helsinki got this group of Romanian gypsies who arrived to be passive beggars. I think begging was highly unusual in Finland, almost unheard of. Anyway, there is no law against begging if you don't actually solicit. So, these folks just kneel on the sidewalk facing the ground with a cup beside them. What to do? Nothing, they aren't breaking the law. It is so strange. Anyway, it was amusing one day that we were driving a friend home and saw one lady from this group. She lives by my friend. I guess they went back to Romania for some time, but some are still here or they came back or never left. They set up a bank account anyway where people can put money into it to improve their life back in Romania.
                                                • Re: Immigration issues

                                                  Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:06 AM
                                                  If i were you, i wouldn't listen too much to one single person. I can ensure you that the situation isn't like that in Sweden. We have plenty of finns in my city and all the neighbour cities. I have lots of finnish friends, one of them working on SVT (swedish television), and i can ensure you of even none of them feels discriminated or being target for racism.

                                                  Here's a link to finnish organisations in Sweden, i would see ONE of them argue about finns being bad treated and discriminated in Sweden.

                                                  www.immi.se/sweden/sverigefinska.htm

                                                  That's not the situation at all.

                                                  I would suggest that you speak with more finns living in Sweden.
                                                  • Re: Immigration issues

                                                    Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:08 AM
                                                    Can i ask you a question?

                                                    HOW many times have you read in ANY newspaper about swedish racism and violence against finns?

                                                    None?

                                                    Have you read about violence with other immigrants involved?

                                                    Thought so............
                                                    • Re: Immigration issues

                                                      Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:31 AM
                                                      Listen............

                                                      You say!

                                                      Finns in Sweden ONLY lives here because they get more money, even if they are target for racism and discrimination.

                                                      Do you really belive that, seriously? :o

                                                      In that case i'm VERY surprised.

                                                      Does it make some sense that many finns lives here because they actually wants to live in Sweden?
                                            • Re: Immigration issues

                                              Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:36 AM
                                              Up until a few years ago, the country with the largest population of Iraqis outside of Iraq was Jordan. I know this because I had to help my husband do a paper on Jordan.

                                              Plus, maybe Sweden isn't taking in as many people as Germany or UK, but isn't it still taking in more than the rest of Scandinavia?
                                              • Re: Immigration issues

                                                Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:42 AM
                                                No country in the world even comes close to Sweden if you look at the population size.

                                                www.scb.se/templates/pr...___196189.asp

                                                As i posted earlier, we took in MORE iraqis then USA............

                                                With a population of 9.5 million citizens.
                                                • Re: Immigration issues

                                                  Fri, March 28, 2008 - 10:48 AM
                                                  Sweden gets the numbers Iraqis "who want to move."

                                                  Jordan got the bulk of Iraqis "forced to leave."

                                                  I don't have the specific numbers right now, but Jordan had the most in 2005.
                                                  • Re: Immigration issues

                                                    Fri, March 28, 2008 - 11:03 AM
                                                    Iraqis are only one of all groups of people who are immigrants in Sweden.
                                                    • Re: Immigration issues

                                                      Fri, March 28, 2008 - 11:03 AM
                                                      People from Bosnia

                                                      Kosovo, Russians, Finns, Africans, etc etc.
                                                      • Re: Immigration issues

                                                        Wed, April 2, 2008 - 7:16 AM
                                                        As a Texan who lived in Sweden for a couple of years, I feel I might have a tiny bit of insight into two aspects of this topic:
                                                        The Swedes have every right to control their immigration, and I am saddened that they have to put the brakes on it.
                                                        Integrating into a culture is vitally important if you are going to stay in another country for more than a sightseers duration.
                                                        It is the problem both Sverige and the US are experiencing now, however the US has the additional problem of MOST of the immigrants coming into the country are illegal ones. The legal ones are not a problem. I slightly (only slightly) resent the implication that it is an anti-Latino issue with the US: It is not, despite some racist organizations like La Raza trying to make it so, a racist issue. Mexico sucks, and it has no problem letting its discontented citizenry depart for the US instead of sticking around to foment rebellion and revolution against its privileged upper class. I have no problem with this country accepting every single one of those people into our country, AS LONG AS THEY STAND IN LINE AND PROCEED IN AN ORDERLY FASHION, respecting each other, and the country and the people they are coming to.
                                                        You can bring up the waves of Irish, and Itallians, etc. etc., that came over, but please remember this distinction: They were all processed through Ellis Island and REGISTERED (However haphazardly)!

                                                        On a happier note, I will be returning to my homeland away from homeland, Sweden, this summer. I've been brushing up on my Svenska, (Unused for 20+ years) and trying to find old friend's contact info, so I'm very excited.
                                                        I love that country, and its people. I'll be there legitimately, and try to respect their culture.

                                                        • Re: Immigration issues

                                                          Wed, April 2, 2008 - 7:23 AM
                                                          Wise words..........

                                                          I second that.

                                                          And if you need to practice swedish...........

                                                          Så är det bara att starta en ny tråd så kan vi öva svenska om du vill. ;)
                                                        • Re: Immigration issues

                                                          Wed, April 2, 2008 - 8:57 AM
                                                          Honestly, I was bringing up the Irish in America as a comparison to the article about people in Sweden – in both cases they were legal immigrants.

                                                          I'm not sold on either side of the American illegal immigration issue. I think putting more money towards capturing and punishing illegal immigrants is probably going to be a big waste of time and money the way the war on drugs has been. I think we need a much larger immigration department federally – not in bureaucracy, merely in force – so we keep better count of the "real" numbers, and actually be somewhat in control of the situation. But I'm also against large government, so all my ideas just crash and burn.
                                                          • Re: Immigration issues

                                                            Tue, April 8, 2008 - 6:39 AM
                                                            Ah, a paradox! Fair enough...

                                                            Rosetta Stone rocks, BTW....
                                                            • Re: Immigration issues

                                                              Tue, April 8, 2008 - 8:35 AM
                                                              Yeah, too bad there isn't a Rosetta Stone for Norsk. :-/
                                                              • Re: Immigration issues

                                                                Thu, April 10, 2008 - 5:59 AM
                                                                Yeah, but the part of Sweden I'm going back to is in Bohuslan, so there is a little Norwegian in the Svenska there... We are going to be in Norway for a week and Sweden for a week... Maybe more.
                                                                I'm nervous as hell about flying, though. I don't like it, since I became an adult and lost the sense of novelty...
                                                                • Re: Immigration issues

                                                                  Tue, April 15, 2008 - 4:12 PM
                                                                  Damn and I was thinking of moving to Sweden too. They speak English right? I want to expatriate the way things are going here.
                                                                  • Re: Immigration issues

                                                                    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 9:55 PM
                                                                    Many swedes speaks english. English speaking immigrants learns swedish pretty fast too because of the similarities between the two languages.

                                                                    Lighthouse - Hi there, i'm from Portland USA, do you speak english?

                                                                    Swede - Que?

                                                                    Lighthouse - Hmmmm, do...you...speak...english?

                                                                    Swede - Que? No hablo alemán!

                                                                    Lighthouse - Oboy!!!! :o

                                                                    (just kidding) :P

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