What is "self-realization"?

topic posted Thu, October 4, 2007 - 10:00 AM by  Od
Is it the same as "enlightenment"?
posted by:
Od
offline Od
California
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: What is "self-realization"?

    Thu, October 4, 2007 - 12:10 PM
    as far as i've been able to discover so far, no one says it better than tony:

    www.youtube.com/watch
    • Re: What is "self-realization"?

      Fri, October 5, 2007 - 9:18 PM
      I watched the whole video clip, and Tony never mentions the term "self realization" and barely speaks of enlightenment. Mostly he talks about liberation and the illusion of the separation self, so I'm not sure how this clip demonstrates what Tony Parsons has to say about the difference between self realization and enlightenment. If I'm missing something, please just let me know.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: What is "self-realization"?

        Sat, October 6, 2007 - 10:23 AM
        hi nathan. so are you saying that you see liberation as different from self realization or enlightenment?
        • Re: What is "self-realization"?

          Sat, October 6, 2007 - 10:36 AM
          Yes, definitely. Read my post below, which delineates the differences I see. Adyashanti talks about these differences, at least between Awakening, Liberation, and Self-Realization. The other two terms come from another, less well-known teacher of mine.

          My personal opinion is that Tony is in Oneness Realization, but his teachings focus on Liberation. A lot of non-duality teachers seem to be in Liberation and their teachings come out of that perspective. But they have a hard time talking about or even accepting that there is anything beyond that. They like to think of Awakening as an end, because they don't believe in process, so they have a hard time thinking of Liberation as merely one stage in a much larger picture.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: What is "self-realization"?

          Sat, October 6, 2007 - 10:39 AM
          oops. sorry didn't read your post below. you are drawing distinctions. to put it simply, what tony and others who teach (or in tony's case don't teach ;^) talk about is sometimes called the final understanding. in the final understanding there is nothing left to get. i agree with you totally though, words do get in the way. in my hopefully humble opinion i think we give them - words - more power than they deserve. the final understanding, as i understand it has nothing to do with any conventional understanding because it's not done with the mind. it has, if i can believe what i've read and trust my own limited understanding, to do with feeling. my guess is that what tony calls liberation you are calling enlightenment. i say this because i can't see him having any problem with, for instance, your statement 'all of life arising in the moment.' it's prob'ly not that easy to get the gist of what he's saying from one short clip, so it was probably a mistake for me to post it as a kind of be all, end all thing. anyway, thanks for your post.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: What is "self-realization"?

            Sat, October 6, 2007 - 10:51 AM
            They like to think of Awakening as an end, because they don't believe in process, so they have a hard time thinking of Liberation as merely one stage in a much larger picture.
            ***********************************

            i think what your saying here is correct. it's not processed based. it's simply seeing through illusion, or as tony says, 'ignorance' (not a term i like much because it has a bit of a stigma about it). most importantly, no one does it, no one makes it happen. everything, which is not separate from anything else, is happening; this is suddenly seen kind of like, i think, a veil lifting. for me this view rings true but obviously for others it's not going to. it's a very radical view and unless one has some experience with the 'veil lifting' it probably sounds like lunacy.
            • Re: What is "self-realization"?

              Tue, October 9, 2007 - 6:06 AM
              How about the notion that enlightenment is the essential nature of every conscious being...?

              And self-realization is simply the personal recognition of one's inherent enlightenment...
              • Re: What is "self-realization"?

                Tue, October 9, 2007 - 8:43 AM
                I think that this is fundamentally true, and has been pointed to by many a wise master throughout history.

                The only caveat for me is around language. For me, saying that one is "enlightened" means that he or she has actually had that shift in consciousness of perceiving his/her true, essential nature. At this point, it becomes clear that all beings are of the same consciousness, but that doesn't mean that all beings are enlightened. They are still dreaming, it's just that that which is dreaming is also, paradoxically, Awake. Awake and dreaming, as opposed to simply Awake.

                The only reason why I point this out is because the truth of what you say, Od, is often taken by others to mean that we are all enlightened *in the same way*, and therefore there is no such thing, really, as enlightenment.
  • Re: What is "self-realization"?

    Fri, October 5, 2007 - 9:21 PM
    I think the first thing to keep in mind is that these are all made-up words, and we're not talking about something with a widespread shared experience like "apple" or "pink" or "running", etc. In fact, all words and descriptions of awakening and enlightenment are very subjective (even as they try to break the subject-object barrier), so you will constantly have to clarify what you as an individual mean by these words.

    That being said, for myself there is a difference between "awakening", "liberation", "oneness realization", "self realization", and "enlightenment". Here is my understanding of each of these terms:

    ~ "Awakening": The basic loss of the sense of "I"; the death of the ego. Egoic consciousness remains, but it has no center, and is not seen as real anymore.
    ~ "Liberation": Loss of the sense of the personal. Although the "I" has already died, there is still a story and a sense that the story is a personal one, even though there is no "person" for it to be about. Liberation ends this illusion. It is much more "empty" than simple Awakening.
    ~ "Oneness Realization": All experience is seen as an expression of Oneness. There is no me and you, just experience arising of, to, from, and for the same Oneness or Consciousness.
    ~ "Self Realization": This is where a sense of "Self" meets "Oneness Realization". Having an internal sense of Self means that even as you may be confused by the illusion of separation, some part of you still feels connected to Self. Depending on the individual, this can be there even pre-Awakening, or it may very well not be there even after Oneness Realization. However, if you have a sense of Self while in a state of Realization, then you would be in Self Realization, and then all experience is seen as an expression of Self. Self is seen in all beings, all manifestation, all experience.
    ~ "Enlightenment": Whereas before this point the separate sense of self has died and one has come to see the oneness of all experience, in Enlightenment, this isn't just *seen* as the truth, it is *lived* as the truth. You *are* all of life arising in this moment. This is the beginning of true Non-Duality.

    Obviously all of these terms and definitions are open to interpretation and debate, but this is my basic understanding. I'm sure there's more beyond even Enlightenment, but I can't even begin to guess what that is. Anyway, thanks for the interesting conversation starter! :)
    • Re: What is "self-realization"?

      Tue, October 9, 2007 - 9:22 AM
      Self realization = enlightenment? Sure. That depends on the meaning of enlightenment, and who's saying it. In eastern, say, Dzogchen, Enlightenment is the realization of the Self. You are Buddha! You are radiant luminosity. You are wei-wu-wei. There is nothing to obtain. If you understand your own nature, that is enough. With that description, there is no ultimate difference. Other meanings describe other levels of 'realization.'
  • Re: What is "self-realization"?

    Fri, December 21, 2007 - 5:59 PM
    insofar as observed and experienced, self-realization is the attainment of a set or series of traits or outcomes that support the idea of ego/self as the primary ingredient. whereas enlightenment is the release of the idea of ego/self that 'is' without effort or thought.

    not that such a ignorant, foolish thing as i am enlightened, except in entirely too swift and fleeting moments.
    • Re: What is "self-realization"?

      Mon, December 31, 2007 - 12:24 AM
      Please forgive me, but I think you mean that self-actualization is the attainment of a set or series of traits or outcomes that support the idea of ego/self as the primary ingredient. Self-Realization is the realization that one's nature is that of Self, which animates all beings everywhere (as opposed to self/ego, which is just out for itself). Self-actualization is when you try to get your life to be a certain way, according to the desires of the ego.
      • Re: What is "self-realization"?

        Mon, December 31, 2007 - 11:54 AM
        no need to forgive, there is no offense. self-realization and self-actualization are often used interchangeably by the 'self help' movement. 'realizing yourself' being their way of connoting reaching your fullest potential, ergo, self-actualization.

        semantics becomes trickier and trickier with time, and of course, the presence of a decided preference for relativity in language. (frown)

        but even in the context you use it, it would not be the same as enlightenment, as realization posits an acceptance of and enlightenment posits having moved beyond the need to use a frame of reference (subject/object, duality).
  • Re: What is "self-realization"?

    Mon, January 14, 2008 - 10:45 PM
    Buddha Shakyamuni taught that there is liberation, enlightenment, and the full enlightenment of a Buddha.

    Liberation (Nirvaṇa) is the realization of the inherent emptiness of all objects and phenomena, including 'self', which forms the basis for ending samsaric rebirth.

    In the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra it is explained that when we become fully enlightened we attain the four bodies of a Buddha; the Truth Body which is of two types - the Wisdom Truth Body and the Nature Body - and the Form Body which is composed of the Enjoyment Body and the Emanation Body. The Wisdom Truth Body is the omniscient mind of Buddha and the Nature Body is the mind which is free from the two obstructions - delusion and karmic imprints of delusion (doubt) - which he taught can only be attained on the basis of great compassion.

    In my experience what is conventionally called 'self', or the 'I' that cognizes, is a very subtle mind, or mental continuum, that experiences countless samsaric rebirths, in various realms of existence, until it purifies all karmic obstructions (and attains the Truth Body of a Buddha).

    Secularly these might be explained as knowledge (intellectual), realization (experiential) and abiding (maintaining) -- or intention, action, and follow through.

    See also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmakaya

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