"but what does your guy friends opinion's have to do with how you title this tribe?"

Nothing, I was just using it as an example of the prevalent attitude here in the States toward feminists in general. I used my friends as an example because they like and respect me despite their misguided notions about what feminism is... and I figure their opinions and viewpoints on it count more than some idiot on the street who hates women and would believe anything bad about them for no good reason.

"and I still stand firm that you aren't a feminist if you are a man hater"

And I agree with you. However, as I said there is a prevalent attitude in the US that feminists are man-haters, and I'm trying to take at least one small step to fix that.

"Maybe there are different attitudes towards and about feminism here in Vancouver Canada (or perhaps just in my circle) but none of my male friends or acquaintances, or female friends equate feminism with man hating, so I have never understood the need to differentiate feminists from man-hating ones and non-man hating ones."

Canada and America have different attitudes on just about everything, is this really a surprise? :)

The problem here is that our media likes to run stories and articles on the most extreme people in every group, feminists included. They use women like Andrea Dworkin to portray what feminism is all about, male talk show hosts make constant jokes/comments on how all lesbians and feminists are man-haters because they've expressed in some way that they don't need to have men around all the time (and thus feel threatened and unnecessary), it's a whole big cycle.

If you haven't heard much about Dworkin, here's a website that outlines some of her most often quotes soundbites: en.thinkexist.com/quotes/andrea_dworkin/

And she was one of the few who was designated by the media to speak for all of us. Maybe that helps give you an idea of how feminism is viewed in this country as a whole, and why. Heck, if she really spoke on behalf of the feminist movement I would be against it too :)

Also, here is a website that links to most of the prominent anti-feminism websites worldwide: www.gabnet.com/lit/demoh15e.htm

Note that there are several websites and concepts that link feminism with hating or villifying men.

Basically, I feel the first big step in getting feminism to be accepted and then later widely practiced is to stop the notion that all feminists are man-haters. It's got to start somewhere, why not here?

I'm a man, just joined, haven't read all the posts, but I thought I might say some men (myself included) value feminism as a useful intellectual framework, because sexism can be viewed as a model which pervades almost all other social aspects--and what is it, Third Wave feminism is just plain redemptive (to men!) through its capacity to explain those dynamics. Redemptive in the sense that it releases men from behavior they don't identify with but have been indoctrinated to believe is their role. And redemptive in that feminist politicians, women or maybe even men, might actually be able to save our collective butts if they can change the way we're heading as a species.

I'm not saying many, especially younger men get that yet (as opposed to the men's movement, which is often about embracing traditional masculine/feminine dualism) and part of the reason why is that as a class they are touchy about women criticizing them. Because they often don't even have a political philosophy of any kind (being mavericks and all), they end up taking it personally instead of analyzing why their behavior reinforces sexism. Plus men are as entrained socially in sexism as women (holding doors, complimenting, paying) and being called on that upsets 'mainstream' cultural habits they might not think of as offensive.

I was happy to see the tribe description as pointing to the value of intellectual feminism as opposed to the red herring of whether the tribe likes men or not. The alternative might be 'visceral feminism', meaning a tribe where women are allowed to vent at men, which might be valid. The problem is that it ends up being counterproductive since a typical male ends up thinking 'she must hate men or something,' rather than hearing the actual expression, whatever it might be.

Vincent