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I think one of the reasons we have so many debates over the question of whether tribal fusion is still belly dance is that a lot of fusion dancers experiment with doing more than just belly dance.
Example: in a Bellydance Superstars show I went to a year ago, Rachel Brice did one solo that I would consider belly dance, one solo that I would consider purely hiphop, and one solo that was intended to evoke the imagery of saloon women from the Old West.
Now, I realize some folks here (such as Aisha) would disagree with me that Rachel's first solo was belly dance, but for purposes of this message I'll just acknowledge that point and continue with my thought....
Anyway, I do think that yes, Rachel has earned the right to call herself a belly dancer.
However, not everything she does is belly dance. Just because she, a belly dancer, does something doesn't make it belly dance. Her hiphop piece and Old West piece didn't even remotely resemble belly dancing. I'm not saying they were bad pieces, though I'll confess they weren't to my taste. My point, though, is that although these dances were done by someone who is a belly dancer, that doesn't automatically confer bellydancitude on them. And although they were in a show called the Bellydance Superstars, that doesn't confer bellydanceitude on them either.
Dancers in general need to learn to be more discerning. If it's a hiphop dance, then don't call it belly dancing just because someone who considers herself to be a belly dancer did it at a hafla.
Many of you may consider me to be a belly dancer, and I consider myself to be one as well. But if I go out on stage at a hafla and do the Highland Fling, that does not automatically mean that now Scottish Highland dance moves can be considered part of belly dancing.
Example: in a Bellydance Superstars show I went to a year ago, Rachel Brice did one solo that I would consider belly dance, one solo that I would consider purely hiphop, and one solo that was intended to evoke the imagery of saloon women from the Old West.
Now, I realize some folks here (such as Aisha) would disagree with me that Rachel's first solo was belly dance, but for purposes of this message I'll just acknowledge that point and continue with my thought....
Anyway, I do think that yes, Rachel has earned the right to call herself a belly dancer.
However, not everything she does is belly dance. Just because she, a belly dancer, does something doesn't make it belly dance. Her hiphop piece and Old West piece didn't even remotely resemble belly dancing. I'm not saying they were bad pieces, though I'll confess they weren't to my taste. My point, though, is that although these dances were done by someone who is a belly dancer, that doesn't automatically confer bellydancitude on them. And although they were in a show called the Bellydance Superstars, that doesn't confer bellydanceitude on them either.
Dancers in general need to learn to be more discerning. If it's a hiphop dance, then don't call it belly dancing just because someone who considers herself to be a belly dancer did it at a hafla.
Many of you may consider me to be a belly dancer, and I consider myself to be one as well. But if I go out on stage at a hafla and do the Highland Fling, that does not automatically mean that now Scottish Highland dance moves can be considered part of belly dancing.
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 11:05 PMSo, to continue my thought, it's okay to consider yourself to be a belly dancer.
It's okay to do a dance form other than belly dance despite the fact that you are a belly dancer.
Just don't call that other dance form belly dance when you do it. Really. Just because you, a belly dancer, felt like doing something other than belly dance on a given day doesn't automatically mean that this something-else dance was belly dance.
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 6:35 AMI agree! And, I think that just because a belly dancer does, for example, an almost entirely hip hop piece and tosses in a few belly dance moves, that doesn't make it belly dance. If say, Ciara were to incorporate a couple of belly rolls or hip drops with releases/kicks into her next performance, we weren't call her a belly dancer or refer to the entire piece as belly dance. We *may* recognize that the choreographer perhaps drew some influences from belly dance (or not, depending on your viewpoint), but that does not mean the she choreographed a belly dance piece. Why would we not use the same standard for artists who are established as belly dancers? -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 1:17 PMShira, as usual you hit the nail on the head!
Some belly dancers do poi, but poi is not belly dance.
some belly dancers do flamenco, but flamenco is not belly dance.
some belly dancers do Indian Odissi dance, but this is not belly dance either.
All of these dance forms (and more) can be beautifully fused, or very badly fused, with belly dance.
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 11:42 AMI totally agree. I think just dumping the name "tribal fusion" on a piece does not make it belly dance, nor any clearer how it relates.
For example, you can have belly dance and poi as a fusion, but it should be called a "belly dance-poi fusion" or a "tribal-poi fusion" or whatever...and it should be at the very least equal parts of each, or more belly dance with a little poi for flavor. Otherwise it's just poi with a little bit of belly dance as flavor, and therefore isn't belly dance.
I honestly think anything that's less than 50% belly dance shouldn't be called a belly dance fusion at all, be it "tribal fusion" or "belly dance fusion" or whatever. I also have seen dancers who label their art as "flamenco fusion" when they're doing 90% belly dance with a little bit of flamenco posture or inspired moves for flavor. My sister and I have discussed this (she's been training for the past two years in flamenco) and she agrees that it doesn't matter whether "belly dance" is implied, calling a dance a "flamenco fusion" when it includes no real flamenco, much less in any large context, is confusing to the audience.
Just this weekend I was at a show where there was a beautiful performance of a girl doing a ballet fusion piece. My boyfriend leaned over to me and said "Is that really belly dance? It doesn't look like belly dance. I know I don't know much about dance, but isn't that more like ballet?" He was very confused at this, given he's not a dancer and he's got very little experience with belly dance at all. He considers himself a newbie to the art form, at least as far as viewing it. I can understand his confusion. I think I only saw a couple of hip drops and mayas thrown in and the rest was mostly ballet or something that appeared to be ballet. It was a very beautiful performance, don't get me wrong, but it definitely confused more than a few people. -
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Bellydancitude
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 1:14 AMI saw a show by a "belly dance" group recently, and they had a fire show they heavily advertised. Basically, each dancer took turns waving around a prop that was on fire, and then passed on the fire to the next dancer, who passed it on and so forth. I really don't recall seeing any belly dance moves, and they weren't wearing belly dance costumes. (To be fair, parts of what some of them wore were like tribal belly dance costume pieces.) The closest to belly dance that I recall seeing was that one dancer lit the end of a sword on fire, and after she was done waving it around, she balanced it on her head for a little bit. However, just because she had a sword, it doesn’t mean that her dance had “bellydancitude.”
I think this sort of thing would confuse audiences. I was expecting to see belly dance when I saw their show advertised, and I didn’t see any. Yes, those dancers are belly dancers, but that doesn’t make every move and dance they do belly dance. What happens if the crowd liked the show I mentioned above and go to a real belly dance show and they are expecting women to wave flaming props around, but the dancers use zills, hips drops, and shimmies? How long before those audience members figure out what belly dance really is? -
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Bellydance Bondage?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 7:04 AMI am just sick to death of seeing people who do some variation of "fusion" trotting out their own versions of S&M Bondage fantasies and then in the same interview talking about how bellydance is so liberating.
I know the "edgy" stuff is popular with younger dancers today and that's fine. But we really need to take back what "bellydancing" is. We need to reclaim it. Prominent fusion artists now show up on google or youtube searches of the term "bellydance." Please explain to me what the heck bondage and ball gags have to do with bellydance? This is what happens when you allow for Burlesque-Bellydance fusion. I'm sick of it. If you want to play at the fetish ball, go do so. If you want to worship the Goddess with dance, do so. But you have NO RIGHT to take this dance form and twist it around to suit your own needs and your own Orientalist fantasies -- and that's JUST what these "artists" are doing.
Sorry for the passionate response, but this just really pisses me off. I just saw an advertisement on BIGNAMETEACHER's mailing list for some fetish show, with arguments that Bellydance needs to be taken seriously as an art form and it's so liberating for women, blah blah blah.
Bellydance does need to be taken seriously as an art form. Bellydance is liberating. But THAT is not bellydance. >:(
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 8:30 PMI have a question. When does a new dance move become an official belly dance move? I know when it comes to ATS it is FCBD that decides when a move is officially a part of the ATS repertoire but who decides for the other styles of belly dance out there? In the beginning wasn't it just a group of women living near each other who started moving their bodies to music? Then one did something the others liked and they copied and added and the dance grew from there. Those before us were influenced by the movements and dances of their environment. When was the stopping point of the evolution? I understand that just because a belly dancer starts doing the Hokey Pokey on stage that it does not make it a belly dance move but what does? -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 9:03 PMFor me, a key defining factor is... how does the new move mesh with the existing body of work AND how does it fit with Middle Eastern culture/
If it's arm/leg oriented, then it's not going to be a good candidate for becoming a belly dance move, because belly dance technique is core-focused.
If it doesn't rely on a grounded, earthy center of gravity, then I wouldn't see it as a good candidate for being considered a belly dance move. Ballet is light and floaty, belly dance is not.
There's more I could say, but I think I'll stop here and let others chime in. -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 6:48 AM"If it's arm/leg oriented, then it's not going to be a good candidate for becoming a belly dance move, because belly dance technique is core-focused. "
What about snake arms/arm undulations? -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 10:25 AMUh oh, I was afraid someone would ask this question! I think I'll start a new thread on that! -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 5:50 PMLol, Sorry. But this thread came at the perfect time. Right now I am trying to find resources on what are belly dance moves. Now I am not talking about belly dance history, I mean the actual moves and how they are executed.
When it comes to ATS I can just go to the FCBD videos, but which resource is the definitive guide for each of the other belly dance styles? Who claims the hip drop, etc? What beyond the music and costume choices makes that style of belly dance that style?
No one can walk up to Carolena Nericcio and say "No, that is not how you do that ATS move." Who/what resource can I use for the other styles which will not allow for any argument? Is there such a thing for the other styles? -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:53 AM**
When it comes to ATS I can just go to the FCBD videos, but which resource is the definitive guide for each of the other belly dance styles? Who claims the hip drop, etc? What beyond the music and costume choices makes that style of belly dance that style?
No one can walk up to Carolena Nericcio and say "No, that is not how you do that ATS move." Who/what resource can I use for the other styles which will not allow for any argument? Is there such a thing for the other styles?
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The difference between ATS and most "other styles" is that ATS is a system created by a single person, Carolena, who is still "in charge" of her system. Most "other styles", like Egyptian and Turkish, developed slowly, over time and through many people. Some people, like Badhia Masabni and Mahmoud Reda, had a huge influence. But they did not "own" the style, the way FCBD owns the ATS style. They could not isolate the style from other influences, just guide their own style in their own way.
Many teachers created their own codification or system of dance to define their own style. Jamila Salimpour in the West and Serena Wilson in the East were some of the first to publish their systems.
Other dancers have devoted themselves to studying and learning a particular style, it's history and the many variations as it is actually done "over there". Artemis for example, is an expert on Turkish dance, Nourhan Sharif specializes in Egyptian. But, because there's so many sources and influences on these styles, even true experts might disagree on minor points.
So while there is no "definitive guide" there are experts in various styles. To find an expert -- look for references from other dancer. Read Shira's site, the online mags, and the Tribes devoted to the particular styles. Ask who is recommended for a particular style, notice the names that keep popping up. Those are the teachers whose material you can count on to be as close to definitive as possible in a dance like this. -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 12:34 PMAzual, because of the truth of what Helen said, i will SOMEDAY (over the rainbow.....) be making a web site that is supposed to be a sort of inter-style dictionary. think of a Spanish-English dictionary, but instead this would be between different bellydance styles so that if you've studied primarily Suhalia format (for example) you could look up the moves by what you know them as and see a youtube vid of just that move (not including instruction, except to explain how it might differ from a similar looking movement. it's not gonna be a site to teach people the moves. i don't wanna get sued ^_~) and then see the homonyms for it, and the synonyms. for example seeing the difference between what ATS calls a camel walk, and what cabaret instructor X calls a camel walk. i want to make the menus so u can look things up by style, homonyms, synonyms, body part, or shape.
of course i can't know all the names for every move in every style i'd be a very collaborative site. i'm a little nervous because i know a lot of other sites have tried to make cataloges of moves, and the collaboration never happens because everyone is too busy to contribute. i have high hopes for the inter-style dictionary concept inspiring people the way it does me ^_^ -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 5:45 PMThat would be awesome!!
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 6:37 AMwow, Fariha! I do this a bit in class, but the very thought of trying to write it all out, say nothing of cross referencing all the video clips necessary, gives me the biggest headache imagineable! I would suggest this might be a community effort- could you set it up similar to a wikipedia community edit thing? -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 1:29 PMthere is one, but no one contributes to it. from organizing group activities i find the only way to get anything done is to be the person who goes "OK! this is what we're going, let's go!" so i think i would just have people email me and i'll have a spot at the bottom of each page for siting their contribution. i think there will be one vid for each move, and each of the different names for it will link to the same page/vid. i wont be starting the project until after grad school, and after i can afford dreamworks. (is that the wed design program? i think im confusing it with the animation studio that did shrek.... it's nap time ^_~)
if you check the archives on bellydance movements tribe, moderated by Jamil (love him!) there is a post about the wiki-bd page. ^_^
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 11:05 PMI was told by an ethnologist (she's Turk and interested in oriental dance in her studies) snake arms definitely comes from Indian dance.
So in that sense your classification of it being non oriental dance would be correct.
Also in folklore, I have never seen it. Shoulder shimmies, and certain arm moves, but in Arab folklore I have never noticed the snake arms.
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 10:11 PMI agree on this...even as a newbie, I sometimes see videos of dancers and think "that's not belly dance, is it?"
But my question is, then...what do you call it when it's not belly dance, but it isn't anything else either? For instance, I watched some YouTube videos today of dancers who dressed in belly dance costumes and used belly dance props (veils, sword balancing), but did dances that I wouldn't necessarily qualify as belly dance... At that point, is it like... Middle-Eastern-inspired interpretive dance or what? =/ You'll be happy to note that although one of them was by my favorite belly dancer, it was just labeled "performance". But there's got to be a better term than "performance", which could really mean anything... -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 10:58 PMI think there are a number of suitable terms...
performance art
dance theater
dance
interpretive dance
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 11:07 PMwhat about world dance like world music? that term for music was created for a wild fusion of ethnic musical forms, plus modern/fantasy elements. no one claims one ethnic heritage with "world music", but everyone knows it s an amalgam of MANY things.
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 8:05 AMI was just at Rakkasah East this weekend, and it really made me think of this thread and other discussions in this forum in general.
I haven't been around the "bellydance scene" very long at all, but I am getting the impression that Rakkasah is becoming more and more like a variety show and less of a bellydance festival, and the same seems to hold true to bellydance in general, at least here in the US.
I like that bellydance doesn't have the strict rules of ballet, that different dancers can have different style, technique, and physique and still be considered belly dancers, but where does that stop?
I actually disagree with a lot of the more conservative opinions in this forum. I think everyone has the right to dance the way they want to, to the music they love, and to mix hobbies and dance forms. But yes, there is a point at which it is no longer belly dance, and as such, it should no longer be called belly dance. Opinions will differ with regard to when this point is reached and there will never be a clear line nor do I think there ever should be. But if things continue on this track, where novelty is the only way to get attention or to be recognized, where anything a bellydancer does gets called bellydance, then maybe the artform will die out, becoming instead a circus of assorted and unrelated dances and hobbies called "bellydance" for no real reason.
Either that, or we'll just have to learn to call it something else and then popularize the term. No matter how much we bitch and moan that it's been sabotaged, at this point I honestly think there's nothing that can be done to reclaim it. -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 8:25 AMIn response to your comment, "I actually disagree with a lot of the more conservative opinions in this forum. I think everyone has the right to dance the way they want to, to the music they love, and to mix hobbies and dance forms. But yes, there is a point at which it is no longer belly dance, and as such, it should no longer be called belly dance. "
Actually, I think you agree with the more conservative members of this forum.
I think even the most conservative members of this forum agree that everyone has the right to dance the way the want to, to the music they love, and to mix hobbies and dance forms. They just don't think that it's appropriate to use the term "belly dance" as the label for doing that. -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 11:08 PMdefinitely.
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 12:16 PMI've been dancing only a couple of years, and am by no means a professional. I have only performed at local events, and general in the American Cabaret style that my teacher prefers to teach us. We have several Tribal/Fusion dancers in the area, more so than not, and I find it intriguing to watch them, but the slowness of it is just not for me. I like the faster, more Egyptian oriented styles.
That being said, Belly Dance is thousands of years old, and has evolved from one thing to the next the entire time. Dance is an Expressive Art form in my opinion. As Cultural Influences shape and change conventional art, so does it change dance. Originally Mid Eastern Dances were influenced by other Mid Eastern cultures. Now that the world has come to know this beautiful art form it is being influenced by the "world" culture. It is part of a shared global information system. Spaniards are no longer the only people dancing Spanish dances, and Mid Easterners are no longer the only ones dancing Middle Eastern Dances, etc, etc.... We all dance together in a collective community of dance.
While there are many times when I've seen something that clearly is NOT belly dance being called just that, there are just as many times when I feel the term "fusion" is appropriate. If it is 80% Middle Eastern and 20% something else then I feel it deserves to be called a fusion piece (again my opinion only).
I guess what I am getting at is that 2,000 years from now belly dance will no longer be what people see today, just as what we see today is not what people saw 2000 years before us.
Such is the Nature of Art, it is always changing, growing, and expanding. When Art is held back, when people no longer seek to add to what is there then ages of darkness occur, periods of sadness.
The phrase "All the world's a stage" couldn't be more true than it is today. All the world is connected, and we all influence one another everyday. -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 9:10 PMI see what you're saying, but at the same time there are a lot of people using the "art evolves" excuse for doing whatever they damn well please and calling it belly dance whether it resembles belly dance or not, and saying, "art evolves" when challenged about it. I don't have much patience with that. As I said above, I don't have a problem with people doing what they damn well please, but I object to attaching the belly dance name to it.
One key consideration with the "art evolves" concept - who has the right to push the evolution? When you're talking about an ethnic dance, I think the people in the country of origin are the ones who have that right, not the rest of us. The rest of us may have the right to make up something new inspired by it , perhaps even borrowing a couple of moves from it and CALL OUR NEW STUFF BY A NEW NAME - I'm not opposed to that kind of evolution so long as we use a new name to identify our new evolved concept. -
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 11:09 PMso well said, Shira!
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Re: Just because a "belly dancer" does it, doesn't make it belly dance!
Mon, November 2, 2009 - 2:02 PMI have a question on this a lot of bellydancer are fusining ballet into the dance, should we then say , that the artist is doing a ballet belly dance piece?
