For the most part, belly dancing is a safe dance form (at least, when done correctly) that works with movements that are natural to the body.
However...
There are SOME moves often done by belly dancers that pose real risk of injury. Even if the dancer is in good shape physically, even if she is doing the technique correctly, certain moves are just plain risky and could limit or even end her dance career. Here are some examples:
* Turkish drops
* The deep standing backbends that are currently in vogue in the Tribal Fusion realm
* Zar-style hair flinging
* Knee crawls in floor work
I've been thinking about these after a dancer in another tribe mentioned becoming injured doing a backbend rollover in a rehearsal. I injured my knee in a Turkish drop gone bad about 7 years ago. And I'm wondering...
Is it at all irresponsible for teachers to teach these moves, and is it irresponsible for choreographers of ensemble pieces to use them in choreography?
I figure soloists who have seen something on a video and tried to copy it are taking their own chances, and are responsible for their own risks. And let's face it, any time a well-known dancer (or even an obscure one) does something impressive, lots of us will try to copy her, even if the move is dangerous.
But if a teacher teaches her students to do something, isn't she making a decision to put their health at risk? Or is it okay so long as she warns them about the risk and ensures they are doing correct technique?
If a choreographer uses risky moves in one of her pieces, is she essentially making a decision to put her dancers' health at risk? Or does it depend on the dancers? Ie, if the choreography is being taught to advanced dancers and pros who already know these moves and use them in their own dancing, does that make it okay for the choreographer to use the moves?
However...
There are SOME moves often done by belly dancers that pose real risk of injury. Even if the dancer is in good shape physically, even if she is doing the technique correctly, certain moves are just plain risky and could limit or even end her dance career. Here are some examples:
* Turkish drops
* The deep standing backbends that are currently in vogue in the Tribal Fusion realm
* Zar-style hair flinging
* Knee crawls in floor work
I've been thinking about these after a dancer in another tribe mentioned becoming injured doing a backbend rollover in a rehearsal. I injured my knee in a Turkish drop gone bad about 7 years ago. And I'm wondering...
Is it at all irresponsible for teachers to teach these moves, and is it irresponsible for choreographers of ensemble pieces to use them in choreography?
I figure soloists who have seen something on a video and tried to copy it are taking their own chances, and are responsible for their own risks. And let's face it, any time a well-known dancer (or even an obscure one) does something impressive, lots of us will try to copy her, even if the move is dangerous.
But if a teacher teaches her students to do something, isn't she making a decision to put their health at risk? Or is it okay so long as she warns them about the risk and ensures they are doing correct technique?
If a choreographer uses risky moves in one of her pieces, is she essentially making a decision to put her dancers' health at risk? Or does it depend on the dancers? Ie, if the choreography is being taught to advanced dancers and pros who already know these moves and use them in their own dancing, does that make it okay for the choreographer to use the moves?
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Iowa
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 2:44 PMAll dance moves are potentially damaging if done with incorrect posture and execution. That's the nature of any type of movement. I think it's a teacher's responsibility to know what his or her students are capable of learning and, if they choose, to teach potentially dangerous moves in a way that emphasizes safety and minimizes the risk. They also have the responsibility to inform their students of these risks so that students can make an informed decision about whether learning the moves are worth it to them.
As for choreography, I don't think someone should be pressured to do something potentially injurious to themselves. But part of that is self-responsibility on the part of the dancer and knowing one's boundaries and realizing those boundaries might limit their participation in certain numbers. -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 3:19 PMI think our dance should be held to the same standards of other dance forms. Well, with the exception of ballet en pointe. ;) Foot disfigurement and bad knees/hips are a part of that, and I'm not encouraging that.
I am however also a huge fan of Cirque du Soleil. Many of their staff are acrobats, but some are "merely" dancers- and look at THOSE choreographies. People who do physical things for a living push boundaries. Hopefully they do them as safely as possible, but there is some risk involved. if I were a chef I might cut myself on a knife or burn myself. If I were a deli worker I could slice a finger off. There is physical risk in many jobs.
A pro dancer in rehearsal while learning a choreography should be "marking it" and not "doing it" all out. If looooong rehearsals are anticipated learning choreographies can be almost "walked through" until there has been enough repetition to take care of the intellectual part of learning it. THEN put your all in to it. Saves a whole lot of wear and tear on the body.
In a classroom, non professional level- the "risks" should be level appropriate. And in this case by "risk" I don't mean "putting themselves at risk of injury", but merely "pushing themselves bit by bit physically from where they are now in a safe way".
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 3:46 PM
I would much rather learn from my teacher the proper way to do a Turkish drop, or other semi- dangerous move, the proper technique is vital in learning any new move, posture, placement, which muscles to use, or not, and how it can be bad for your body. My instructor is very good at breaking down each move and sharing its draw backs (Turkish drops are very hard on the knees,etc) if it has any. Regarding doing such moves in choreography, that is hopefully a personal choice, the troop I work with allows for a bit of wiggle room when it comes to moves that are potentially hazardous. I have a knee issue so I personally do not do the Turkish drop, so if that comes up in our choreography we work out something else I and the others who decline to do the move can do in its place, I realize not all troops work like that, and not all choreographers are willing to change their vision for the safety of others bodies, but that is when one's personal choice's come into play. Each one of us is responsible for our own well being, difficult choices must be made,and if that means saying no to a choreography, or yes and doing something potentially hazardous to your heath, well, that is entirely up to the dancer. Thanks for the thought provoking post!
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 4:11 PMThis is a good discussion! The way my teacher choreographs is she makes sure we can all do the moves safely, and I've see her change moves in dances because of the potential risk on some troupe member's knees. We've also broke apart where people with better knees do one move, while other dancers do another. When I do solo stuff, I can try a little bit trickier stuff, but I know my limits and skill level. When I work on choreography for others, I make sure that all the moves are comfortable for everyone. Only once did I incorporate floorwork, and only 3 out of the troupe did it while the rest of the dancers did moves on their feet.
I don't think a choreographer should put the riskier moves into a dance and expect everyone to be able to do it, especially for student troupes. The choreographer needs to be flexible and take the dancers' limits into consideration.
As for teachers, I think it is okay for instructors to teach the riskier moves as long as they explain the risk and why it could be dangerous beforehand. It's better to learn the move from a teacher rather trying to copy it off a video. When I was first learning how to swing dance, the advice I heard over and over again was to learn air-steps from a teacher, don't watch "Swing Kids" and try out the moves by yourself! There is a big risk of injury, such as being dropped on one's head! -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 11:56 PMIs all about amazing the audience, isnt it?
i love zar, turkish drops and back bends...but they do hurt u in the long term.
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 12:46 AMQueston:
What is a turkish drop and why is it so dangerous? I've heard the phrase used several times in relation to getting injured. -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 11:12 AMI don't know technically how to describe it, but Rachel Brice and the tribal gals do it. They're doing a backbend, and then they drop right onto their knees. I'm not a teacher, but I'd like someone to explain to me the safe way to do it. It sure seems like there isn't one, but in the above comments, people alluded to being taught the correct way. -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 6:31 AMNo, no don't land on the knees! That's bad. Actually, you land on your butt and the inside of the calves.
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:11 AMSee, I knew I would describe it wrong. It just LOOKS like they land on their knees. So, how exactly do people injure themselves doing this? What gets injured? And you're right, I seen cab girls do it too. I just forgot about that, and I always think of Rachel Brice when I think of it. -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:59 AMHi Shazadi! Although there are several things that *could* go wrong (such as clunking your head on the way down), the biggest risk (assuming you're doing it correctly) is to the knees. You see, typically people end the Turkish drop in the position of knees bent, feet outside the knees, and butt on the floor. (Ie, like yoga reclining hero pose).
This position of the butt on the floor and feet outside the knees places tremendous pressure on the ligaments in the knees. Even if you do the drop correctly, there's always the risk that your position will have something in the wrong place by an inch or two. Best case injury - your ligaments will be forced out of the correct position and track incorrectly. Worst case injury - torn ligaments in the knee requiring surgery.
My injury was ligaments both stretched and pushed into the wrong position, so that they were tracking incorrectly. I lived with it for 5 years, usually not having pain, but every once in a while it would hurt to go upstairs in my house or walk up hills in the wooded park near our house. My rolfer worked wonders with it, reducing the frequency of this problem, but it's not 100% cured. I sometimes experience pain in certain yoga poses - anything involving sitting in a pinwheel pose, cross legged, lotus, etc. Obviously, hero and reclining hero are bad ideas for me. Sun salutes are iffy for me when the injured knee is the one that's bent in the lunge position. -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 4:24 PMAll I have to say is ouch. That W sit that kids are not supposed to do and dancers do, I never try that either. -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 7:21 AMPersonally, I don’t teach those moves. I’ve done all of them except the zar hair flinging. I have seen people become physically ill from that.
There are 2 reasons I don’t teach them. The first is that they are unnecessary for belly dance. Like Maura said, so many uneducated audiences get wowed by these moves but they have nothing to do with belly dance. I think it is more important for a dancer to learn how to execute dance moves and follow the music.
The second reason I don’t teach them is that the average student, especially the beginner student isn’t in good enough physical shape to execute those moves.
I do give them stretching exercises in anticipation that one day they may want to do these moves, for instance the camel for backbend, a modified hero pose for Turkish drop etc., stretching for splits.
I learned how to do these moves myself. Once I learned them, I never practiced them again and would only do those moves during a performance. I did however daily do stretches and strength exercises needed to execute the moves.
Now, I WOULD teach the move only to an advance student and/or professional dancer who was in great physical shape. However so far, I’ve never been in that position.
I would never put those moves in a choreography unless all dancers involved were very well seasoned and in excellent shape and could actually do the move. But in my experience whenever you are doing a group choreo there is always at least 1 person who has trouble with something let alone a gymnastic type move. There are so many other legitimate dance moves you can do.
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 6:48 AM...a lot more dancers than just tribal dancers do it. : )
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 11:15 AMOh, and I'd like to add that our troupe instructor does emphasize for certain moves, not everyone should do this and you have to know your own body. There are issues with backbends, squats, knee work on the floor, etc., and not just for older dancers (like me :D). A lot of young ones I know have knee issues and back problems already from sports and other things.
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 6:25 AMA Turkish drop is quick drop to the floor. Old-style is spinning into an abrupt, sudden stop & drop. The newer style is a slow back bend sinking lower, lower, then finally dropping.
Both moves require specific flexibility, there's a risk of tearing ligaments and muscles, twisting or spraining the knees and ankles, cumulative damage from improper technique (Rachel Brice did the slow version with a broken toe and every time she did she rebroke the toe!), or even concussion if the back of your head lands first.
Look up Turkish Drop, bellydance on Youtube, you'll find lots of examples.
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 8:59 AMThanks for all the interesting and well-reasoned responses so far! I'm still trying to form my own opinions on this subject, so I really value the input I'm receiving!
Rachel, I see your point about all dance moves being potentially injurious if done wrong. Heck, I have a friend who broke her ankle just plain WALKING (not dancing) when she stepped off a curb onto an irregular spot on the pavement and turned her ankle. And even simple hip slides, hip circles, and figure 8's can lead to sciatic nerve pain and lower back disc problems if done in the swayback position, which is why it's so important for teachers to correct student posture.
Samira, good point that we should be applying the same standards to ourselves that ballet and other "academic" dances do to themselves. I wonder how many belly dance teachers and troupe leaders think about asking their students to "mark" the choreography while learning it rather than going full-out. In my many years of dancing in belly dance student shows and troupes, under the direction of several different teachers, I don't think I ever had even ONE encouraging us to just mark the choreo. But you're right, doing that would save a dancer's body.
Erika, I see your point about preferring to learn from a teacher who can ensure you're doing it correctly. I think my hesitation here is that there are so many belly dance teachers who took it upon themselves to start teaching when they had themselves taken only a couple of years of instruction. In just a couple of years of instruction, a dancer may learn how to do some of these moves for herself, but won't yet know what kind of pain/injury can result if it is done wrong, and won't yet know exactly what level of strength, control, and flexibility is required, and which muscles it's required in. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard someone with two years of lessons under her hip scarf say, when I expressed surprise that she was teaching, "Oh, I realize I don't know enough to teach intermediates yet, but I do know enough to teach BEGINNERS." So, I'm not so sure that every teacher possesses the body awareness to know how to teach demanding moves properly, even if she can do them herself.
Anyway, thanks so much everyone for sharing your thoughts! I'd love to hear more! -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 11:28 AMI know our instructor--who, as a PT, has more knowledge of anatomy than your run-of-the-mill instructor--will gently refuse to teach us certain moves. She's not strident about it, she just feels that it would be irresponsible to teach something that--in her opinion--CANNOT be done safely, eg turkish drop or L-shaped backbends. She can also explain exactly *how* it hurts you in such a way to dissuade even a stubborn show-off like me (sneaked one of those nasty backbends into a routine and--while I didn't actually hurt myself--I can certainly see how one false move could...snap!).
Because of that, Samira, I did what you described--I didn't *always* execute the backbend in rehearsal. Instead, I would do the actual backbend maybe 1 out of 4 times and balance out the other 3 times with forward bends.
However...I'm not a performer; my goal is to be a "serious hobbyist", LOL, so I doubt I'll take risks like that in the future.
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 9:26 PMJust regarding holding ourselves to the same standards as ballet etc:
A ballet dancer is shot at 35. While many dancers can and do continue to dance for many more years, it is generally recognised that to dance at a high level in classical ballet is completely unrealistic after 40, if not after 30, and veteran dancers will be the first to tell you that their bodies are no longer coping with the work. That's why professional ballet dancers go into character roles, training and administration. People who are really serious about ballet will usually shake their heads and tut at famous dancers who just won't stop. They might look good to you or me but to a ballet fan, they're sad and embarrassing. People can continue with contemporary dance longer, but ballet, not really. Acrobats etc tend to be young for a reason - for the same reason. The bodies start to pack up in time.
I would like to think that in our dance form one of the key attractions is being able to dance well for many, many years, and if that means not doing Turkish drops, then good.
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 1:10 PMIf people wish to learn certain moves from a teacher (who was properly trained), I think it's fine as long as the dangers are discussed.
I think a choreographer should discuss any physical limitations with the dancers and make sure it's clear what could possibly happen. I think anything is potentially dangerous, but if there's proper warning, all you can do is hope that people are adult enough to consider any possible problems and then make a decision -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 6:39 AMEducation is always better than ignorance. Education of the dangers, the correct technique, and the fact that these risky moves are NOT a "Bellydance Requirement".
The choreographer has the vision, the dancers execute it, it's a team that requires both players. A great choreography takes the dancers strengths, weaknesses and limitations into consideration.
In the average "Bellydance" situation (ie, students, teachers, hobbyists), no choreographer should demand stunts that endanger the dancers.
And dancers need to speak up, too. If something hurts, it's the dancers responsibility to speak up, perhaps suggesting a modified move within her ability. -
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 7:53 AMI hope that I didn't imply that it is solely on the choreographer. I find people are really not quick to speak up if something doesn't work for them, be it a painful move or just not getting it.
If I were choreographing a group piece, I'd make sure that all members are capable within reason (accidents happen) to handle it. It would suck to have to either find a replacement or redo the choreography because of an injury
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Re: Moves that are physically dangerous
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 9:00 PMI don't think any dancer should have to do a move in choreography that she feels is not good for her body.
I have problems with my neck/upper back from back surgery several years ago, and so I avoid too much fast motion with my neck, and don't do the rolling head/hair tosses to the extent taught in class, and in our class choreography I do very small, more limited motions in time with the group. That's a risk more for me personally than dancers generally, but I feel it's up to me to speak up and say "I'm sorry, I need to modify that move".
I come from figure skating, and risk was much more apart of daily practice than I think bellydancers tend to think of, so my perspectice may be a bit different... I was always a very cautious skater (wouldn't lean as far back in my laybacks as I might have, for example), and got to know my own body fairly well, and so now when I practice backbends, I try to use that knowledge to judge what feels good for my body and what doesn't, and I think each dancer has to develop that for themselves over time, and if they aren't comfortable with something, if it doesn't feel safe enough to them, they have to speak up and say so to the teacher.
I think as long as it's taught correctly, each person has to decide for themselves what risk to take. Honestly, the main risk I'm concerned about right now it repetitive strain from zills (not something usually thought of as "risky" comparatively, though repet. strain is always in the workers safety training I've taken), and my teacher instructs us in stretching exercises for our hands to help prevent injury there.
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You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 9:37 AMI know that these 'dangerous' moves are sometimes used to bring attention to an otherwise lack-luster performance. Cirque du Soleil performers go from excellence to excellence, and in their case it is art as well as entertainment (IMO). But a belly dance performance that consists of a shimmy here and a shimmy there, a shake arms here and a snake arms there, and then a hair toss or a Turkish drop? Too much emphasis on the entertainment and not enough on the art, IMO. I don't blame the dancers... it is just so difficult to believe that what the audience reacts most strongly to is not your best dancing. DIfficult to talk dancers addicted to the attention incurred by the 'dangerous' moves until they are able to persuade themselves that an overall excellent performance suits the audience just as well.
Daughter has a rep for doing a Turkish drop with a sword on her head. Everyone goes 'ooo' and 'ah.' After two years in massage therapy school, she rarely does it anymore... as a matter of fact, I haven't seen it for half a year. She wants to dance forever, and even coming down safely on inside calves is stretching stuff she doesn't want stretched. Also, I have never been easy with the move - she's almost six foot tall and a good deal heavier and further off the floor than the 'average' dancer and therefore a good deal more at risk. Actually, I believe I threatened to hurt her myself if I saw that drop again... I know I'd never be convicted by a jury of my peers :) There's so many other choices that please the audience over all, even if they don't go oooh and ahhh...
Similar with singers, I believe. Someone starts singing, gets some gigs, starts making a reputation and earning money, and it turns out they are misusing their instrument and will wear it out if they don't stop and relearn how to sing. Then, choices. -
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 9:53 AMThis is similar to abstinence only teachings for sex ed. People are still going to do it, probably in a sneaky hap-hazard manner and be very ignorant of what can really happen because people refuse to teach it because it's "bad.
For instance: Abstinence-only girl. Is horny anyways. Does stuff with her skeezy older boyfriend=STDs and pregnant.
Proper knowledge girl. Punches boyfriend in nose and drags him by the ear to the nearest testing clinic.
Never taught a turkish drop girl. Hears it half-described on here. Tries it in her living room, cracks head on coffee table, must go to hospital.
Girl shown injury probability by quality teacher. Realizes she has back problems and it is really a bad idea to try it next to one's glass coffee table.
It is a rather exaggerated surmise, but it is just the most extreme ends of what can happen with uneducated people. It is IRresponsible as a teacher to refuse to teach people the proper dangers and safe way to do ANYTHING, rather than just saying "No you can't because it's bad/dangerous" -
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 10:19 AMAs you might imagine, I receive lots of emails from people asking how to do it. I usually start by telling them I injured my knee doing one 5 or 6 years ago, and that was after doing them successfully for several years. And then I'll say, "But if you really MUST, then the first step is to learn how to do a kneeling backbend with ease. If you can't easily do a kneeling backbend, then you certainly can't do a Turkish drop!" Then I point them to the article about kneeling backbends on my web site at www.shira.net/howtomove.htm .
I think your analogy to abstinence-only teaching for sex education is spot-on. You're absolutely right, if the teacher doesn't teach it, the students who want to learn it will figure it out on their own anyway. I did. None of the 10 teachers I had over 15 years could do Turkish drops, and therefore certainly couldn't teach them, but I figured it out on my own. I had some input from articles in the belly dance magazines warning about the potential for injuries, so I had a little information on what risks to watch out for. -
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:20 AMOh, I forgot. I think all teachers who are willing to teach Turkish drops and other injurious moves should have a good gymnastic teacher's name in their back pocket. Because some of these things really fall under certain kinds of stress on your muscles best taught by a gymnast. -
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True, oh queens...
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 2:25 PMSo to tie all this back to the original topic:
I agree that performers want to perform and they are willing to take risks to do so. However, if a teacher or choreographer or director insists that a dancer push themselves hard re: technique, hours or emotion, they have an obligation to be the knowledge-based safety net that catches them, because at that point they are not functioning as a peer, but as an authority. But I am very idealistic. -
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Re: True, oh queens...
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 5:21 AM"I agree that performers want to perform and they are willing to take risks to do so. However, if a teacher or choreographer or director insists that a dancer push themselves hard re: technique, hours or emotion, they have an obligation to be the knowledge-based safety net that catches them, because at that point they are not functioning as a peer, but as an authority. But I am very idealistic."
have to agree with that one!
& for workshop instructors, if you MUST have even a 'couple little hair tosses' in your choreography, even if you can go over technique & give individual attention, please, please emphasize both physical preparedness/limitations & the *necessity* of having a coach/instructor spot you on ANY of these once you get home! I think the responsibility lies especially heavy on workshop providers to give these cautions *emphatically* and for teachers to caution students before they go to workshops. I'd say about half of the workshops I have attended have included at least a couple movements that are not safe for folks who haven't specifically built up to those movements. Workshop warm ups are fodder for a whole different rant!
With my students, I usually know them from day one and can monitor their progression. I know which ones are doing their conditioning exercises at home between classes, which ones have specific injuries, etc. and I still hesitate to teach several movements. I do start conditioning exercises from day 1 in case someone wants to do these moves eventually. if I have advanced students interested in dangerous movements, I will walk them through it with stated cautions & warnings about spotting, etc. Certain movements, like the turkish drop, I actually do refer out to both yoga instructors and martial arts instructors for training (a judo drop is great prep for a turkish drop)
Personally, I taught myself many of these moves, my teacher just mentioning them sent me (at age 14) home to try turkish drops without any coaching at all. I blew my knee (not too bad.) then I recovered, learned how to do them right and haven't done them since. I used to love deep backbends, cause I was a complete ham and I could do it (what other excuse does a teenager need?) I am doing a sword routine in a month with a deep backbend or two, but I have come to realize, that's not what the dance is about for me anymore. I like subtlety and simplicity better than gimmicks. does that mean all my training time doing backbends and flipping coins with my tummy were useless? well, I sure had fun trying! May 10 will probably be my last deep backbend in a performance. It may be my last sword performance (maybe not!) But I am still willing to coach others determined to do either one.
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 7:43 AM<<I know that these 'dangerous' moves are sometimes used to bring attention to an otherwise lack-luster performance.>>
I do agree, Maura. I think if dancers are going to do these moves, they need to be at the top of the game elsewhere, too. I see a lot of young dancers (particularly those who promote themselves on Youtube) who can barely shimmy and then they end their routine with their approximation of a Turkish drop. It's not impressive.
I think if performers do these moves, then they need to use them like they would use spices in food--the right amount can greatly enhance a meal, but not too much can overpower it. Doing a drop in every performance is going to get boring. The key is that an experienced dancer (one who is likely to have the wow factor throughout her entire performance) is going to have a good idea of the right ratio.
As for the Zar, I do that on occasion. I actually find it to be invigorating, but I can't do more than one in a day. And you do have to be careful not to strain the neck. -
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 11:41 AMQuote: >>Never taught a turkish drop girl. Hears it half-described on here. Tries it in her living room, cracks head on coffee table, must go to hospital.
Girl shown injury probability by quality teacher. Realizes she has back problems and it is really a bad idea to try it next to one's glass coffee table.>>
Or...girl does it as instructed, injures her knee anyway, and sues teacher who showed her how to do the drop. :-o
There may be other reasons why a teacher won't teach it, if she knows the risk of injury is high.
I like Shira's answer here. Personally, I would only consider teaching a move like Turkish drop to an advanced student who I knew to be very strong and flexible and who asked for the information (i.e, I would not teach it in a regular repertoire of moves). And, I would never teach it in class and never use it in a group choreography. I would discuss risks first, yes, and ask them to start with strengthening and flexibility exercises. This is all theoretical, though, because none of my students have ever asked me to teach it!
For deep back bends, I don't teach that either, and would not use it in a group choreography. For my classes, I teach a modified lean back that bends the knees and uses the upper back more, while protecting the lower spine. It still looks great.
For floorwork, I give students the personal choice to try it or not, and I have modified standing moves for those who don't want to do it. I also make sure everyone has kneepads or practices on a mat.
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 3:04 AMI am aware that a chest lift, or pop, if done too hard, can hurt the lower back. I am angry that many teachers around teach a large hip circle to beginners with dramatic layback and even with combré (which looks kitsch and wrong). It is also very tempting to do hard bodywaves with your head thrown back, for it looks so good.... If I will teach some day I will teach students to do the moves neatly and start small until they have built up the strength to go bigger. It is a very competetive thing to aim for the spectacular stuff. Before students go for those things, maybe a teacher can teach them how to perform only by using facial interaction with the audience or good ideas for an entrance... A good performer can be effective and enjoy great feedback also without the dramatic highlights that are only for really advanced (and even for the advanced they can be problematic in the long run). Floorwork can be really beautiful also without the ambition to be a super-snake. Simple things are beautiful if done beautifully. I have seem many performers that never bothered to put an effort into their figure eights, but hair tosses, yeah!
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 8:24 AM...oops...meant to say too much of a spice can overpower a meal....
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:06 AMI agree - and I also have a little tiny bone to pick about that subject - why not really focus on learning the art and science of how to create an amazing, dynamic choreography instead of a few dangerous moves? The audience WILL go oooh, and aaah, if your choreography is awesome. People are not immune to skill! I personally feel that my time has been wasted when I go see a 'famous' dancer or group do a couple of sloppy moves over and over. Especially if I've paid money for it!
I'm all for everyone expressing themselves, feeling free, doing improvs at Haflas and in fun, informal settings - and the fun of belly dance is one of its calling cards. But when you're at a paid performance, you should be a fair 'businesswoman' and give the people what they paid for - a really well planned, thoroughly memorized, exciting show - not a sloppy fling with a few eye catching moves thrown in.
You CAN have a load of fun AND be professional! (And not injure yourself in the process, if you develop real skills and talent! Rachel Brice does great choreographies - I think she'd be just as famous without the drops. Her skill and her STAGE PRESENCE are her calling cards
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Re: You pays your money and you takes your choices.
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 8:20 PMYou wrote:
I'm all for everyone expressing themselves, feeling free, doing improvs at Haflas and in fun, informal settings - and the fun of belly dance is one of its calling cards. But when you're at a paid performance, you should be a fair 'businesswoman' and give the people what they paid for - a really well planned, thoroughly memorized, exciting show - not a sloppy fling with a few eye catching moves thrown in.
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Raven, I think this statement is very biased towards choreography. Improv doesn't have to be sloppy or amateur. Many great dancers only use improvisation. Take Zaheea, for example (as seen on By Dancers For Dancers and Peko Records videos). It doesn't have to be boring or repeated. An experienced improvisational dancer can come up with something just as exciting, and just as interesting, as a planned choreography.
I don't do choreography at all, but I get complimented on my "choreography". I think that's because some people can't conceive of how you could come up with all that on the spot. It just takes practice, lots and lots of time spent practicing improvising. At this point, I can listen to a piece of music and spontaneously generate in my head combinations that would fit for different parts of the music - I can see a fully realized dance in my head.
Many artforms involve improvisation - jazz, theater, etc. I think you are right on that it is better to learn the art and science of good dancing and entertainment over a few dangerous moves. But I think you are unfairly blaming improvisation.
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