The Zodiac: Sidereal Vs. Tropical

(originally published in The Mountain Astrologer, 2001)

by Bruce Scofield

Critics of astrology often argue that "astrologers," a loosely defined group that includes dabblers, serious students, and practicing astrologers, are uniformed in regard to the existence of two zodiacs. They may be right about the first group, but certainly not about the second and third. For the past 40 years, at least, most serious astrology books have drawn attention to the tropical-sidereal debate when the topic of the zodiac is discussed. There is no excuse for anyone who considers themselves an "astrologer" today to be ignorant of the existence of this complex issue. However, exactly what are the differences between each zodiac, expecially in regard to symbolic delineation purposes, is a topic that has not been adequately addressed. And so we are still left with a deep and unresolved controversy that haunts our field of study.

The great astrologer Johannes Kepler had a solution to this problem - he basically abandoned the zodiac and built his astrological system around the aspects between the planets. He thought that the zodiac itself was merely a human geometry exercise and primarily served to aid the memory of astrologers as they computed aspects in their heads. To the argument that the zodiac reflects the cycle of the seasons he said "there is no experiment that proves that the twelve signs are divided up into various qualities - especially in view of the fact that in the other (i.e. southern) temperate zone those signs that make us warm would have to be considered cold, and visa versa." (1) Another early scientific astrologer, John Goad, followed Kepler in this regard. In the late 17th century he published a massive study of astro-meteorology in which signs of the zodiac were basically ignored. But the tradition of the tropical zodiac persisted and Kepler's reforms were forgotten.

In the late 60's I discovered that there was a movement in Western astrology that was concerned with reinstating the sidereal zodiac. The Irish astrologer Cyril Fagan began the modern "Siderealist" tradition in the late 1940's with a number of publications that argued strongly for the role of fixed stars in the establishment of the zodiacal framework. He attracted a small group of articulate followers that included Brig. R.C. Firebrace, Donald Bradley, and Rupert Gleadow, all of whom died in 1974, four years after Fagan's death. Bradley (a.k.a. Garth Allen) was a serious researcher who published a number of scientific studies of astrology which proved to his satisfaction that the fixed stars Aldebaran and Antares were positioned at 15 degrees of Taurus and Scorpio, respectively. This put the fixed star Spica at 29 degrees of Virgo. Stars that are said to anchor the sidereal zodiac are called fiducial stars.(2)

Probably the best astrology magazine of the time (and still so today) "American Astrology," had long supported sidereal astrology and frequently ran articles by leading siderealists. As a reader I was intrigued. So I looked into this branch of astrology, reading Fagan, Gleadow, and then tackling Donald Bradley's book on solar and lunar returns. I went right to work; hand-calculating solar returns, quarterly-returns, and demi-returns in both the tropical and sidereal zodiac. Bradley's methodology didn't involve any sign interpretation, it was based primarily on the angularity of planets at the time of the return. So the truth was you really didn't need to convert from the tropical zodiac to the sidereal zodiac, you just needed to account for precession. One thing I found from doing all these returns in both zodiacs was that they both worked - but not necessarily at the same time. I closely followed a series of lunar returns in both zodiacs for several years. Most of the time the tropical zodiac return seemed to be more descriptive of events than the sidereal. But every once in a while, it was the sidereal that clearly symbolized the events of the time. The confusion deepened.

A few years later, at around 11 PM, I ran into to the late A.H. Blackwell, a well-known siderealist, while he was speed-walking a tight arc around Rob Hand's house. Blackwell, who resembled Groucho Marx in some ways, was circuiting the house about every 20 seconds when I caught up to him. We quickly became friends. A.H., as he was known to many, thought of himself as having a stellium in Libra, in the sidereal zodiac, that is. This stellium was in tropical Scorpio, however. Although I strained by brain in trying, I could never see anything remotely Libran in him. A.H's unfortunate and untimely end by cancer was preceded by events like a family member's suicide and very serious martial woes. The battle over his legacy continues to this day. I still can't see any Libra, as I undertand its symbolism, here.

Around this same time I also began to explore what was then called Hindu astrology. We all know that this astrological system (Vedic) uses one or another version of the sidereal zodiac, the slight differences between them being measured by what is called the ayanamsha, the gap between the tropical and sidereal zodiac. The twelve sidereal-based zodiacal signs (rasis) used in this system are not particularly important overall, and they serve more as a background reference plane for planets than as a matrix for personality distinctions. The houses are important, however, but house boundaries between planets will remain roughly constant in a timed birth chart no matter which zodiac is employed. After reading a number of texts on the subject it became apparent to me that Hindu astrology was a tradition that was not concerned with extracting psychological insights from birth charts, it was more event-oriented.

What's really going on here?

Given the above, that both Western and Eastern advocates of the sidereal zodiac did not display any brilliance in the subtleties and dynamics of human personality, I moved on to a study of Dane Rudhyar's ideas on astrology. I was fortunate in even getting to hear him speak in person a year or two before he died. In my opinion, Rudhyar remains the most important astrologer of the 20th century. He had something intelligent to say on just about every issue in astrology, including the sidereal-tropical problem. Rudhyar wrote that the sidereal zodiac, the zodiac of constellations, was a product of the myth-making faculty of the human psyche. These constellations, groupings of stars, are a remnant of an earlier age that saw the rise of agriculture, but they are not relevant to modern life. He felt it was unfortunate that both zodiacs use the same names for their 12-fold division of the yearly circle, and he regarded the tropical zodiac as being the proper framework on which to assess the evolution of mankind. Further, he thought the so-called precession of the zodiac should be viewed in an entirely different way - the constellations should be conceived as moving forward through the zodiac, just as the planets do. For example, today the constellation Pisces could be said to be advancing through the sign Aries.(3)

For many years I asked "why is the notion persist that the sidereal signs of the zodiac actually work separately from those of the tropical zodiac?" My answer has to do with my insight that most people are not able to think clearly or cleanly about astrological typology, i.e. personality differences. On the other hand, I figured that any astrological system could survive as long as it delivered some goods - i.e. working forecasting methodologies which have nothing to do with signs. Here's what I mean in more detail. Consider studies, conducted by skeptical enquirers, in which a group of students are given the same personality delineation and are independently asked to comment on how accurate it is. In general, most report that much of the delineation is true for them. The students, like 99% of the population, have no training in self-knowledge, so they don't really know how to think about themselves and critically analyze an alleged self-description. There are other variations of this loaded anti-astrology experiment that also point to the broad-based lack of psychological insight in our population. (In fact, if anything, that's what these studies really prove, contrary to skeptic's claims that they disprove astrology.) Another observation of mine is that many people who are good at technical astrology are generally not as strong in handling personality delineations, and vice versa. Which relates to the fact that the people I met who were into sidereal astrology were very technical astrologers. So for years I used what I perceived to be a general lack of self-knowledge and penetrating psychological insight among siderealists as a convenient rationale for explaining how the tropical-sidereal debate could go on for so long.

Today I still think most people don't know how to look at themselves in a mirror - so to speak. And I also think that these people should not be allowed to participate in any astrological study that tests the ability to slice personality into thin sections - like the tropical-sidereal debate. So how do we proceed? There are undoubtedly a reasonable number of leading astrologers, some well-known, others not, who have excellent insight into the human condition. It's among this group, if such a group can be sorted out properly, that some kind of study pitting the two zodiacs against each other might be conducted. Oh my, does this smack of elitism! (Then again, not everyone can play the guitar like Hendrix.) Interestingly, among some in the field of astrology, the issue is already settled. I'll bet you can find astrologers who say they know exactly what the difference between the two zodiacs is. I would wonder about these claims - are they basically pushing their agenda by sheer bluff like some priest preaching moral laws based entirely on ancient writings? Who could possibly know with any certainty that the sidereal zodiac is a code for spiritual development or that the tropical zodiac is the key to only that which happens to us on Earth? Does the sidereal zodiac work better for gurus than the tropical? Should we only use the tropical zodiac on the mentally disabled? If I take LSD and raise my consciousness to a "spiritual" level, will I begin to respond to the sidereal zodiac? This is an experiment that I've been meaning to conduct for some time.

Well, I still don't have any authorative word on this thorny subject, thank Uranus. In general though, I agree with Dane Rudhyar's thoughts on the subject. But there are also the studies that have been done. Donald Bradley's work shouldn't be ignored, and it supports a fixed-star oriented kind of astrological influence. Precession correction seems to work sometimes in return charts, for me at least. Rob Hand long ago suggested that precession correction might be applied to transits also. But precession correction is one thing, a separate sidereal zodiac with delineations for the 12 signs closely resembling those for the tropical zodiac (and using the same names) is a much bigger problem, however solvable on an individual basis through the magic of Mercury and Neptune the case may be. Personally, I suppose I can afford to let this side of the problem slide and get on with my life. My natal Sun is in late Cancer, so I'm a Cancer no matter which way you look at it.

Footnotes:

1. Negus, Ken, trans. Kepler's Astrology Excerpts. Princeton, NJ: Eucopia. 1987, p.11.

2. See Fagan, Cyril. Astrological Origins. St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn Publications. 1971, and The Solunars Handbook. Tucson, AZ: Clancy Publications. 1970. Also see Gleadow, Rupert. The Origin of the Zodiac. New York: Castle Books, 1968.

3. See Rudhyar, Dane. Birth Patterns for a New Humanity. The Netherlands: Servire-Wassenaar. 1969. pp. 85 ff. (note: this book was later reprinted under the title "Astrological Timing.")

www.onereed.com/articles/s...opical.html
  • Re: Article: The Zodiac - Sidereal Vs. Tropical

    Mon, April 7, 2008 - 10:15 AM
    There has hardly been any accurate sidereal astrology. However it might be, we modestly submit our own zodiacal studies in abstract format, including animations and enrichened PDF files. The zodiac has 22 constellations. Here is a little preview.

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    Klaudio Zic
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    More options Apr 7, 4:56 pm
    Newsgroups: alt.astrology.marketplace, alt.divination, alt.astrology, alt.prophecies.nostradamus
    From: Klaudio Zic <rt...@sdf.lonestar.org>
    Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 07:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
    Local: Mon, Apr 7 2008 4:56 pm
    Subject: Zodiacal Apocalypse
    Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Remove | Report this message | Find messages by this author
    First published by Klaudio Zic Publications, 2008, www.lulu.com/astrology.
    Copyright © 2008 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No part of this
    material may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means,
    electronic or otherwise, for commercial purposes or otherwise, without
    the written permission of the author, except when permitted by law.

    APOCALYPTIC ZODIAC

    Copyright © 2008 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved. www.lulu.com/astrology

    APOCALYPTIC ZODIACS

    Many zodiacs have been calibrated for the end of the present evolution
    cycle, but it happens that the modern western-eastern civilisation
    uses what has been become an uniform standard in astronomy, the IAU
    zodiac. This ACADEMIC ZODIAC consists of 22 IAU constellations.

    ZODIACAL ENGINEERING

    Apocalypse would not be one without the ACADEMIC ZODIAC, since
    contemporary with it and the PRECESSED ASCENDANT set. In this brief
    the reader is informed of the basic zodiacal positions for the
    apocalypse now.

    Eris in Cetus1.
    Venus in Hydra
    Jupiter in Ophiuchus
    Uranus in Cetus2

    Minor, yet helpful indicators are enlisted as follow.

    Mercury in Orion3
    Mars in Cetus4
    Moon in Auriga5

    Special births are of extreme importance. We are not referring only to
    the antichrist born with Venus in Hydra, but also to apparently common
    children, which may in fact result as peculiar missionaries. Alice was
    born with Moon in Cetus ascending, Mercury in Sextans, Venus in Orion,
    Juno in Scutum and Pluto in Serpens Cauda. Such children are not to be
    overlooked as they form the basis for good apocalyptic management of
    the planet.
    Klaudio Zic

    Copyright © 2008 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved worldwide.
    Redistribution of this file in any form is violation of the Copyright
    Law.
    This copyrighted material has been previously published as available
    from www.lulu.com/astrology
    Copyright © 2008 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No part of this
    material may be reproduced or
    Transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or otherwise, for
    commercial purposes or otherwise,
    without the written permission of the author, except when permitted by
    law.

    1Along with Moon in Orion, Eris in Cetus is the main indicator of the
    fall of the U.S.A.
    2As included in our animated almanac of the apocalypse. All positions
    enlisted have been dealt in detail through a number of dedicated
    publications.
    3As referring to a rare prolonged sojourn of Mercury in Orion during
    an anniversary of Lady Di.
    4London bombing was nevertheless a minor indicator, comparing to Venus
    in Cetus at the death of the pope.
    5Special publications about this Moon in Auriga cover all the facets
    of this not so rare position. www.lulu.com/content/252570
    • Re: Article: The Zodiac - Sidereal Vs. Tropical

      Fri, April 11, 2008 - 9:26 AM


      It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.
      ~Benjamin Disraeli
      • Re: Article: The Zodiac - Sidereal Vs. Tropical

        Sun, April 13, 2008 - 12:21 AM
        First published by Klaudio Zic Publications, 2008, www.lulu.com/astrology. Copyright © 2008 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No part of this material may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or otherwise, for commercial purposes or otherwise, without the written permission of the author, except when permitted by law.




        ACADEMIC ZODIAC SYSTEM


        Copyright © 2008 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved. www.lulu.com/astrology


        A HISTORICAL NOTE


        There have been many attempts at determining the zodiac in ancient cultures, still to be discovered, as well as those relatively modern. Our own research rendered the P1, P2, X, G, M, E, IAU28, N1, and N2 zodiacs before settling for the academic format. The Academic zodiac has a relatively small number of constellations, only 22, comparing to the previous definitions that, like the Eris based X zodiac, had even more than 40 constellations. If Eris would be planet we would have a very intense zodiac, indeed1. For those astrologers who want to work with Pluto, the P zodiac extends the standard Academic Zodiac with constellations like the actual Eridanus or Coma Berenices. We were accustomed to have Bootes and Serpens included among our zodiacal constellations, until the IAU determined that Pluto was justly not to be planet any longer.


        ACADEMIC ZODIAC


        Our zodiacal research rounded up towards year 2006 when the Academic Zodiac was incipiently published on www.lulu.com/astrology in its final form.
        The Academic Zodiac is available in PDF format, in animated and abstract form.
        The Academic Zodiac system easily extends to cover an universal range of zodiacal problems such as determining the local zodiac while approaching an alien system. The spacecraft mainframe operating the Academic Zodiac will propose the planet set and determine the ascendants within the universal Cartesian house system.
        The Cartesian house system is a welcome innovation since it is universally applicable to topocentric astrology such as in case of underwater quakes as provoked by 2002 AW197, or the birthday of the Dalai Lama at great altitude.
        The Cartesian house system obviously solves what all house systems never did. The popular Night & Day2 house system does not even know of the problems that might arise at a certain latitude or altitude. Horoscopes are easily located for spacecraft, asteroids or other planets. When Venus is e.g. rising in Hydra, it is clearly visible in the astrological chart.
        Horoscopes calculated with the planetocentric system www.lulu.com/content/652589 will show e.g. Sun in Cygnus for our Cruithne colons. This horoscopes are a matter of fact for the near future of our race as NASA is planing mining expeditions on our coorbitals.
        The eastern ascendant precesses through aeons, thus a cowardly Pharaoh could have Lepus ascending in his natal chart. At the time of heroes and Grail pursuit, Aries and Crater were ascending at east.
        The precessed ascendant set for the epoch has 16 IAU constellations. In the mentioned example of Venus in Hydra ascending, Hydra is both a zodiacal constellation and one of the eastern ascendants for the epoch.
        It is assumed that rotation produces changes. In the case of the precession of the races, the ascendants determine the types of men. The children of Shem and Ham can be thus monitored through time according to precession.
        The present set of 16 ascendants is a modest one as compared with its predecessors. Indeed, this planet has become uniform in custom and language as it heads towards globalisation. When the number of eastern ascendants was much larger than the ones that we have today, customs differed and there was more diversity and versatility on a perhaps healthier planet.
        The Academic Zodiac System offers a comprehensive reconciliation between eastern and western philosophy, astronomy and astrology, the mundane and the sacred, as it gently sweeps through Egyptian and Mayan experiences in order to understand better the Chinese and Sumerian thought. It is this zodiac that will communicate with the aliens as it represents the unified efforts of the scientifically minded humanity.
        The psychological benefits of the Academic Zodiac include the determination of the true natal position of the sun. Conventional horoscope making has become superstition as people are told they are “Scorpio” when their natal sun is in Virgo. The error is deeper than just two signs or constellations, and its reasons touch u occult nature of human and not human mind. In order to discreate the influence of superstitious systems, we have created the real time reality rendering tools3.
        The Academic Zodiac is ideal for the growth of healthy children who will finally be assigned their true planetary positions. Our first model child is Alice, born with Moon rising in Cetus, Mercury in Sextans (same as Keanu Reeves), Venus in Orion, Juno in Scutum4 and Pluto in Serpens Cauda (the ascendant of the U.S.A.).
        Klaudio Zic


        Copyright © 2008 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved worldwide.
        Redistribution of this file in any form is violation of the Copyright Law.
        This copyrighted material has been previously published as available from www.lulu.com/astrology
        Copyright © 2008 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No part of this material may be reproduced or
        Transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or otherwise, for commercial purposes or otherwise,
        without the written permission of the author, except when permitted by law.








        1The X zodiac is available on our site since August 1st 2005.
        2The name derives from the early version with 24 hoiuses.
        3The RTRRT are able to operate above the level as defined by astrology in order to dispel bad omens and create a healthy planetary atmosphere.
        4See also Venus in Scutum. www.lulu.com/content/861913
  • Re: Article: The Zodiac - Sidereal Vs. Tropical

    Mon, April 21, 2008 - 1:56 AM
    Those people never knew their own natal sun position. Forget about them, they were never astrologers.
    • Re: Article: The Zodiac - Sidereal Vs. Tropical

      Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:09 AM
      The past 50 years are nothing when it comes to stupidity as wrought to us from our Indian and Babylonian pals. Neither Vedic not Babylonian astronomy were accurate, not to speak of Kepler's foolishness, Newton;s utter stupidity and the rambling blunders of Cassini and Galileo ,whom I prefer to that Nostradamus. There was no astrology at all. Those books carry no scientific evidence and if Kepler did not know his own natal sign then how could a miserable outsider like those you are liable to naively trust, on account of lack of basic mathematic knowledge? lulu.com/astrology

      There are free sun ephemerides on the site for astrologers to check their real position of the sun. All else is beyond your reach, I'm afraid.
  • America has been born with Serpens Cauda, the tail of the snake ascending, but it might have as well been Aquila or the eagle rising at east in Philadelphia. The first ones to unschool are our masoinic forefathers who knew nothing of astronomy, just wore funny kilts, that in turn have nothing to do with one-eyed pyramids and KEM or Egypt. lulu.com/astrology Unschooling the Zodiac since 1992.
    • First published by Klaudio Zic Publications, 2008, www.lulu.com/astrology. Copyright © 2008 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No part of this material may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or otherwise, for commercial purposes or otherwise, without the written permission of the author, except when permitted by law.




      ACADEMIC ZODIAC


      The error as propagated by false astrologers now amount to TWO SIGNS,
      albeit they will “inform you” that there is “only one sign of error”.


      Copyright © 2008 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved. www.lulu.com/astrology


      YOUR ACADEMIC HOROSCOPE


      Give your horoscope due academic education with the Academic Zodiac and precessed ascendant set for the epoch. Your horoscope deserves to be treated by the honest and accurate hands off God and NASA. In the past there were many errors and prejudice as concern astrology, but today we are capable of correcting those errors, as your redeemed horoscope enlightens your triumphant soul.


      INTRODUCING THE ACADEMIC ZODIAC


      The Academic Zodiac is the objective rendering of your natal sky, as you are finally compatible with every observatory, Indian and American as well. Finally no one can laugh at your horoscope or come up with another theory. Your horoscope is simply the blueprint of your real natal skies.


      THE BENEFITS OF THE ACADEMIC ZODIAC


      Your horoscope has been made by the honest hands of sleepless astronomers who observed the skies throughout human history while faithfully entering data over thousands of years and into this millennium.
      When we speak of Sun in Orion we know what we are doing as tradition and modern classification agree on this position, much as with planets in Cetus or Ophiuchus. The 22 IAU1 constellations are zodiacal simply because the planets enter these constellations on their regular course.
      During the years as the amount of superstition grew, astrology was debased at the hands of unqualified charlatans who proclaimed absurdities such as e.g. Pluto in Aries. Pluto never enters Aries much as Eris never enters Taurus.
      The Avatar of truth, Sai Baba has been faithfully informed about His own natal sky as compatible with the observatory next door in his hometown, namely the Sun can be observed in the constellation of Libra on November 23rd every year.
      Everyone will agree that the Sun is conjunct Antares while in Scorpius2.
      NASA ephemeris for the Sun.
      2008-Nov-22 00:00 Lib
      2008-Nov-23 00:00 Lib
      2008-Nov-24 00:00 Sco
      2008-Nov-25 00:00 Sco
      2008-Nov-26 00:00 Sco
      2008-Nov-27 00:00 Sco
      2008-Nov-28 00:00 Sco
      2008-Nov-29 00:00 Sco
      2008-Nov-30 00:00 Oph
      2008-Dec-01 00:00 Oph

      All ephemeris calculations by NASA JPL.
      After spending a week in Scorpius the Sun is in Ophiuchus, the central Judeo-Christian3 constellation, to spend New Year in Sagittarius.
      The error as propagated by false astrologers now amounts to TWO SIGNS, albeit they will “inform you” that there is “only one sign of error”.
      Among the many errors that for the dark legacy of European pseudo-science, we have but mentioned the most obvious one: astrologers never knew the position of the Sun proper, while the ascending constellations remained a mystery for eons.
      The academic level of the material as proposed to the IAU is pending discussion as the IAU has astrology among its topics.
      The case is not that simple as the ascending constellations vary according to precession while the zodiacal set is for all practical purposes unchanging.
      Your natal sun has been misplaced, e.g. If you had a Virgo position, you were liable to be told you are a “Scorpio”. A woman suffering from hostilities on account of her “cold heart” as “clearly visible” from her “Capricorn ascendant”, rejoiced by discovering she has always had Pisces rising in her natal chart. Such revelations are not at all insignificant in a world ruled by superstition and lie where a person asks herself “who am I”, who really I am to be?
      It may not be as absurd as it sounds that true spirituality can be only based on true science and not superstition. Already in the Bible there is a ban against Chaldean calculus which did not take precession into account. God wants us to observe his creations the proper ways. If God and NASA agree, who are we to disobey?
      You want honesty for yourself and your child. Alice was born on August 4th 2004 with Moon ascending in Cetus, Mercury in Sextans and Venus in Orion. She has Juno in zodiacal Scutum and Pluto in Serpens Cauda. What an exceptional child! And yet the pseudo-astrologers will see nothing special. For them, she is average.
      We wrote to UNICEF in order to promote horoscopes for children that would be otherwise harmed by false identity; something against the Constitution.
      It is immaterial to assert that eastern or western astrologies have made the same errors. The most grave was to presume that the sky does not rotate. They invented an absurd fixed set of ascendants as if there were no precession at all.
      Today when we look at the east we see 16 rising constellations, but at the time of the pharaohs the number of constellations rising was doubled, thus accounting for ancient versatility as compared to modern globalism. No wonder many are fascinated by the magick of Egypt!
      Klaudio Zic


      Copyright © 2008 by Klaudio Zic, all rights reserved worldwide.
      Redistribution of this file in any form is violation of the Copyright Law.
      This copyrighted material has been previously published as available from www.lulu.com/astrology
      Copyright © 2008 By Klaudio Zic. All Rights Reserved. No part of this material may be reproduced or
      Transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or otherwise, for commercial purposes or otherwise,
      without the written permission of the author, except when permitted by law.








      1International Astronomy Union.
      2That is, if the Sun is in Scorpius, it cannot be elsewhere. One thing can not be in two places for all practical purposes. Moreover, Spica Virginis is in Virgo, as everyone will agree, and not in Libra or soon Scorpius, according to drunken theories of madmen. Imagine the crooked minds that want to have the main star of Virgo constellation in Libra or even Scorpius! Would you even consider such nonsense? And yet people are being led by such madmen for centuries now, and even call them astrologers!
      3Kemitic, then Judeo-Christian.
      • What sense is in comparing two or three visibly superstitious and imprecise popular zodiacs for the masses, now that we have the real zodiac? The zodiac has its depth, e.g. northern zodiac, middle zodiac and lower zodiac: it is clearly multidimensional. In the past one could not even judge standard positions as e.g. Moon in Orion (WTC). How can one predict without knowing the planetary positions? Let us assume true sly instead of superstition in order to predict and avert the next WTC, not as the superstitious had a couple of days before the WTC happened: "Prosperity for the nation with Jupiter in Cancer", that was Dell magazine or something: what do they know of Jupiter??? In fact subprime mortgage crisis happened!
  • Mel
    Mel
    offline 0
    I have noticed often, not always, the longer it takes to explain something the more likely it is bullshit. Accurate astrology shouldn't take 5 pages to 'explain' a sign, higher accuracy will denote shorter, more specific explainations.

    €This lack of subtlety is more useful in the real world, than vagueries.

    The zodiac that is working for me is the astronomically correct 13 solar sign zodiac, though one half of pisces is considerable misfortunate as the sumerians seemed to know, otherwise pretty complete.

    As for the 22 I suspect its more accurate but the long term observations to make use of them, I find lacking.

    The effect of the sun's 'mood' aka constellation is so profound though, that using the solar zodiac alone is useful in that it shows the relationship of the suns moods to the various aspects of your life.

    This method seems to sometimes, therefore, point out the sun signs of the persons involved in the aspects of your life indicated by the planets and houses that fall within those signs. With the exception of the sun/'son' which is spot on considering it is solar and does only have between 13-15 options and is accurately represented in 2d charts.

    example: fifth in virgo-your child is a virgo sun sign

    My take is that the accurate solar zodiac works because the sun is so much more influential in our lives than other planets that this supercedes to some degree the irregularity of some of the other planets orbits.

    much congrats on working with the 22 though Its beyond me to deal with right now and i'm doing objectively well with the other so far
    • @
      @
      offline 8
      Good astrometeorology as practised by Kepler and Newton is to do with magnetic angles of the planets to the sun heliocentrically. As modern researches have discovered too, that heliocentric alignments in line or square to the galactic center will be augmented or diminished. These directions are marked by Antares and Aldebaran, Regulus and Formalhaut, and is why they included in weather astrology traditionally. The Moon plays around with our magnetic /electrical connection to the Sun, phase, distance, and lunar crossings of the ecliptic, and extremes of declination are all very influential.
      People are some what more sensitive to which stars any given planet or even minor planet is conjuncting with.
      The tropical system is concerned more with what I would call solar astrology, the portion of the year you were born, its like saying that the first month after the spring equinox always has an Aries vibe no matter what stars are there. From my own experience, and from tradition, I know that each star has its own signature and unique energy, and very strong effects happen can with certain planetary-stellar conjunctions. So I would consider the actual stars nearest the sun, moon, planets, a major consideration. Mind you, if you look at good web site for the fixed stars, they will list the stars of Aries, as all the stars in Pisces, maybe this how it still functions well at the stellar level.
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        I really don`t think this 13 sign zodiac checks out. The two popular `13th` signs, Orphiucus and Auriga, are both in the big hoop of the galaxy and not in the big hoop of the sun. The Nazcal desert lines depict these two hoops unfurled. Read the spider as Orion (urine), this line is the galactic hoop of signs, these are power signs, some of the most important signs in the heavens. The other line is the sun signs, Leo being the crown shape.

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