Small Business Loan

topic posted Mon, June 2, 2008 - 4:22 AM by  Theresi
Hello all, I haven't dropped in in a while as I have been extremely busy at my store. Things are going ok sales wise. Problem is, I am not happy that I own a co-op and the things I used to sell, someone else sells and she is telling me that I cannot sell them, I have to remove them from my store. When I first came to another co-op she was already there. Then the co-op shut down. I opened a store and brought everyone with me. Her superiority/seniority got grandfathered in. We sold things in the same taste, but different (I sell Indian imports and Belly Dance supplies and she sells Belly Dance supplies, but our styles are opposite.) I have suppliers and I told her about them. Stupid me. Now she is selling them and telling me to get my things out. There is a "no competition" clause though not written, is understood. I am heartbroken as I have used these vendors for over six years. They have helped me through the lowest of my times as well as the highest. Also, I work very hard in my store. We are open 5 days a week, but usually I find myself in there 7 days a week sometimes getting in at 8am and leaving at 8pm. I work to the bones for this store, and she drops in maybe twice a month to drop things off and has the nerve to take it upon herself to bestow herself the title of "Partner". She has bullied me to run all the other vendors out. I am not allowed to sell whatever I want and love as you can see by her power. And although I am the store owner, and the name of the store is The Pink City (We all have our individual business names within The Pink City) all of her advertisements list our address without mention of the store name, as if she is a free standing individual business with nothing to do with us. People call on the phone confused that they have the wrong number when I answer as The PInk City and not her business name. People are mad that they cannot find "her" business because it is not on the sign outside. Thing is, I used to sell the pretty good before I joined into this group and I am tired. I am tired of being bullied, I am tired of not selling what I love, I am tired of selling my vendors items for her. I am tired of being used and unappreciated. I have worked hard to build this business. Here is what I want. I want her gone. I need my creative freedom. But she knows that I do not have the revenue to pull the store by myself, so she has me by the throat and can walk all over me. Some people suggested I get counseling for co-dependancy, but that is for another tribe! Here is what I need to do. I need to secure a small business loan for about $15,000. I need to go and buy the inventory needed to fill the back rooms that she now occupies. We agreed that we need to split, but she wants until February and I cannot take working so hard to sell my inventory (meaning this is what I used to do and now that she does it, I cannot sell it - she was the belly dance vendor when I came to the original store, so she has the priviledge). If you want to hear me crying and ranting in detail, it is here: tribes.tribe.net/fdhb/thre...2980aae97b
Every dollar I make for her should have been a dollar I made for myself. She has no idea of store revenue. But it is pretty stable. And she is not the best at what she does, but I know what to do that if it were my stuff in there, sales would double. As I was saying, I looked at financial projections and if I could secure a small business loan, my daughter and I could afford to have a decent life. Now I know in order to obtain a small business loan, I need to have a business plan in place. I also read in previous posts, that of all business that succeed, one thing in common that they shared is that they all had a business plan. Also, my credit score is about 578. I do not think I can get a business loan at that number. I am praying hard that this month I can have enough left over revenue to pay down my credit cards to (I think I read that a good number is 30% of the limit is a good number to pay down the cards to) and pay off one blemish for a TV cable bill. Anyway, as for the business, numbers look good. How realistic is my plan, and how fast do you think it could all come together with diligence? I was thinking of going to the SBA to talk to them, but maybe with my credit score being what it is, it is a bit premature. Also, I think it takes about two months for your credit score to really reflect all these changes I need to do above. For example, when I pay off the cable debt, it takes 30 days for them to report it to the credit bureaus, and then 30 days for the credit bureaus to update their information. Any suggestions on a business plan template? I went to a small business meeting with SCORE and when they showed and example of a business plane, man! it was overwhelming! 7 pages! aiy yi yi! Any help would be appreciated. I am miserable and I have potential to make my business something bigger, but need to find the right steps...
posted by:
Theresi
SF Bay Area
  • Re: Small Business Loan

    Mon, June 2, 2008 - 6:19 AM
    They are going to want collateral. I don't think that you will get a loan absent something to put up like such as a building with equity in it.
    It won't hurt to ask though. What's the worst they can do say no~?

    I am leery about borrowing money to get a start up going or to maintain a business that isn't self sufficient. I think it's those things are serious mistakes. Borrowed money should only be used to grow and already thriving concern.

    Generally between businesses only the written agreement holds any weight.
    If your agreement has an "Entire Agreement" or "Incorporation" clause that says that there are no verbal or other agreements then you may be able to tell her go bugger off. However, courts have often used conduct of the parties to settle vague terms or unstated contractual issues.

    I don't know how co-operatives work but I loath partnerships and other ventures where your success or failure depends on the other guy.
    • Re: Small Business Loan

      Mon, June 2, 2008 - 11:24 AM
      Hi Cliff,
      Thanks for your input. I thought of the business loan as "expanding" my business. If I was to sit tight and just suck it up, considering my revenue vs. expenses, we are at a good level. The thing is, I want to go back full swing into what I did before I took on this crew and was forced to scale back and my freedom was taken away. Can I use the inventory I already have as collateral? Or with a sound business plan, will that have some weight on a SBA small business loan or other loan options? This loan would really be to help me grow rather than save me. My internet sales are taking off. My store sales have tripled since I first started. Right now I am making about 5 times my rent amount. If I were to expand, I did the math, and my revenue would still be at about 4 times the rent as a baseline, only now on a much higher financial level with lots of room for growth.
      Thanks in advance...
      Therese
      • Re: Small Business Loan

        Tue, June 3, 2008 - 7:20 AM
        Inventory as collateral:
        Maybe if the lending officer can find away to think of it as worth at least the value of the loan AND as a salable commodity.
        In theory you can use anytign as collateral. It all depends on the lender.

        I got and then refused, an SBA loan on a restaurant with no real business plan. It was one lousy sheet long saying the business model was to "generate income" retailing prepared food - yadda yadda number oft tables / seats, current staff, cuisine style yadda yadda plans for the future. The real statements were was "generate income" and the plans for future growth. I said nothing about income.

        However, I had a half million dollar home to put up as collateral. Which was also the reason I decided at the last minute not to take it.

        If you are making 5 times the rent ( and I'm assuming the rent is in the thousands per month) you might consider not taking on any debt but, rather saving till you can expand under your own steam.


        However, your financials should I think be part of any information you provide to a potential lender. That, standing alone, speaks volumes.
        After all no matter you plans or anything else the mere fact that you are generating income is what is is all about.
    • Re: Small Business Loan

      Tue, June 3, 2008 - 9:05 PM

      A) That's why partners of any stripe suck.

      B) I don't know if I understand - if you had $15K you could get rid of her? Maybe I should read your post again, but I don't understand what the $15K would do for you if you are contractually obligated to sell her stuff.

      C) Cliff is correct - there's no much you can do to secure a business loan without some kind of collateral in less then three to five years of operation - and even then you'd have to probably go through some kind of community bank. One option though is a line of credit. My bank right now is offering a line of credit 1.5% BELOW prime, and all it takes is half-decent credit. BUT - that's interest MONTHLY, not over a term. What you need is a two or three year term loan, and that's a different issue.

      D) "I was thinking of going to the SBA to talk to them, but maybe with my credit score being what it is, it is a bit premature." No, it's never a waste of time to sit down with them if you've not done it before. They DO sign on to loans: usgovinfo.about.com/gi/dynam...fsite.htm

      E) "I went to a small business meeting with SCORE and when they showed and example of a business plane, man! it was overwhelming! 7 pages!" Seven pages? That's not a business plan, that's a Business Summary. I've seen their plan, and it's a great beginning, but that's about it. My current plan for an operational business is over 30 pages and it's my 28th iteration of it. There is a business plan writers tribe if you need assistance. Also - the financials and plan are a sign to the lender that you know what you're talking about and are perhaps loan-worthy beyond your credit score.

      F) "I am leery about borrowing money to get a start up going or to maintain a business that isn't self sufficient. I think it's those things are serious mistakes. Borrowed money should only be used to grow and already thriving concern." Yep. That's why you need one hell of a plan and the supporting financials. Remember, a plan is not just to show the facts of the business - it's a way to prove or disprove the legitimacy of your business and a sign that you DO understand your business. You need to write a plan to see if you can actually make the business work, and a good plan will bring up innumerable issues that you may not have even thought of that could prove or disprove the viability of your business.

      G) Having a plan disprove the viability of your business is the 2nd best thing that can happen to you after the first - which is proving the viability. Putting good money after bad is a mistake that should not be made, and the loss of having to walk away from your business is not as bad as putting in MORE time and money and THEN having to walk away, right?

      H) Don't get emotionally involved with your business. It's not worth it. It's a business, not a living thing. If this one fails, then that's just a lesson to take with you next time that you open a business, but with the lessons (hopefully) learned.

      I) "Can I use the inventory I already have as collateral?" Generally speaking - no. But, that's a question for the SBA/SCORE rep.

      J) "Or with a sound business plan, will that have some weight on a SBA small business loan or other loan options?" Maybe, maybe not - but it'll help YOU more understand YOUR business, right?

      Good luck, and I hope that you find a way to make it work and don't end up in a law suit.
      • Re: Small Business Loan

        Wed, June 4, 2008 - 10:00 PM
        I knew that things would get worse. I knew when she didn't respond to my email voicing my feelings and I didn't hear back from her, that it was going to be the calm before the storm. She IM'd me two days ago and asked for her monthly totals. I pinged them to her and she said "thank you" which was earily overly formal. I knew she was up to something. And I was so right. When we spoke face to face, we had agreed to us splitting in February. Apparently after I sent the email, it enraged her so much that she stormed in for the kill. She gave me a 90 day notice with really tough terms and conditions. I owe her a few months revenue. And that is totally my fault. I have been making payments to her, but she had a repayment document that also tacked on 10% interest per annum spread over a 6 month course. If I fail to make one payment on time, all debt and interest become due immediately. Repayments go first to interest and then the rest goes to pay off the principle. And more. In her Notice to Vacate, she states that I am not to compete with her and any and all merchandise I have pertaining to belly dance or square dance cannot be sold in the store and some more things. I called her and I told her that she was going way over and beyond what is necessary. I said I am not a corporation or big business. I am just a woman with a little girl and she was going too far. I told her that the interest was unneccesary and over the top. The more I think about it, the more I am leaning toward not signing anything. The way she rigged it is so tight that with one slip up, I am gone. I might go to legal aid or the bar association and seek a lawyer to look this over. The funny thing is, that she now has no where to go. She would rather leave after 90 days with no place to go than to stay until February and make sure we both have time to work on our individual situations. She has totally overreacted and now we both have to pay.
        I was also thinking about the Line of Credit from my bank. I was thinking it might be easier to get. Yes, I saw that a business plan was like, 29 pages! I went to SCORE's website and saw the template. They say it takes about a week to write it. I will see what I can handle. I have three months to get all my affairs in order to take on the whole store by myself. I am actually getting what I wanted all along, it just happened much sooner than I expected or was ready for.
        • Re: Small Business Loan

          Thu, June 5, 2008 - 3:00 AM
          <The way she rigged it is so tight that with one slip up, I am gone.>

          Exactly. That's her aim.

          You have thee choices:

          1) Sign the document and hope for the best.
          2) Don't sign the document, negotiate terms with her and see what happens.
          3) Walk away and consider it lessons learned.

          No matter which option you choose, you need an attorney. That'll cost you at least $175/hr and it'll take probably no less then four hours for them to just talk to you, read the agreements and tell you what your options are. So...

          What would I do? I'd first do #2, I'd tell her that I was not going to sign the document that she wanted and that if she wanted to keep the place open and get ANY income, she'd have to be able to agree on fair and equitable terms. But, if you do this, you will have to be prepared for her to say 'no' and you'd be out of your place.

          And, that may be what happens, so don't worry about it too much - don't sweat over what you have no control over, 'eh?
          • Re: Small Business Loan

            Thu, June 5, 2008 - 6:47 AM
            Just because she has created a document doesn't mean its enforceable. Is she leaving or are you. If she's leaving, let her go. Pay her the revenues, because its right to do so. Pay her exactly what you owe her and then, when you're done with that, refuse to pay more for the interest. Let her sue.
            Her terms are unreasonable and punitive. Count this aggravation as the price of an education.

            Believe me, I know what you're going through.
          • Re: Small Business Loan

            Thu, June 5, 2008 - 6:54 AM
            Yes, Andrew, I was thinking that I am just not going to sign the papers. I am again letting myself be bullied. I am not happy with the terms and agreements, why would I sign them when they can mean impending doom and my destruction? Because I am allowing myself to be pushed around again. Her papers are not notices of vacating, they are strictly revenge. I called her yesterday and told her that they 10% interest was just too much, ridiculous. After some time, she agreed that she would strike it. I am actually glad she is gone. She has always been the one running my store and I am tired of being intimidated by her. Maybe this explosion that seems catastrophic at this time is really a blessing in disguise. I will just talk to her and tell her that I will agree to things like not compete with her in the store and be on time with my payments, but I am not signing anything. I can't stand the way she pushes everyone around. Even though I am the owner and she is the tenant, she has all the power in her hands and calls all the shots. And if you don't agree with her, she gets very nasty.
            I will work on my business plan. That is a top priority. I will also pay down my credit cards to improve my credit score. I read that it is good to pay them down to 30%. But my boyfriend says to pay them all off, and then make sure I pay off whatever balance I have every month. Do you guys know which is correct in boosting my credit score, or what lenders are looking for? Now as for the loan/line of credit, I think of it as an expansion, not a way of saving a failing business. I need to be able to buy clothing fixtures and shelves and go back to selling Belly Dance like I did before we got together, so I have a lot of holes to fill in inventory wise. So I see 10-15,000 as a ballpark figure to do what I need to do comfortably. I have so much to think about and I am so frustrated that I have a long dentist appointment today. I tried to reschedule, but they can't find anything else soon enough. Ugh! My mind is going to be in overdrive today in that dentist chair while I am so anxious to get out and get the ball rolling on my store...
            • Re: Small Business Loan

              Thu, June 5, 2008 - 7:46 AM
              You mentioned Legal aid and they might also be able to help you or refer you to an agency that can help you for a reasonable fee. Also go check out Nolo press's website and see what they have. Their thing seems to be making things equitable for both sides in every transaction. While Nolo won't be able to help you with live people they are a good starting point.

              Also remember to keep documentation of everything... a diary of sorts... of conversations, print e-mails and IM's, keep a photocopy of the document she gave you with her terms,etc.

              Mabye do a new document with your terms that is not so one sided in her favor and like Andrew said... negotiate with her. And take the non-compete clause out... refuse to sign anything that includes a non-compete clause and if necessary remind her that certian suppliers were your suppliers before they were her's and if she insists on a non-compete let her know that you are keeping your suppliers and she also has to adhere to the non-compete clause.
            • Re: Small Business Loan

              Thu, June 5, 2008 - 5:55 PM
              <Yes, Andrew, I was thinking that I am just not going to sign the papers. I am again letting myself be bullied. I am not happy with the terms and agreements, why would I sign them when they can mean impending doom and my destruction?>

              Seems reasonable.

              <Also remember to keep documentation of everything... a diary of sorts... of conversations, print e-mails and IM's, keep a photocopy of the document she gave you with her terms,etc.>

              Great advice.


              I do believe that this is why this group exists.
        • Re: Small Business Loan

          Thu, June 5, 2008 - 8:38 AM
          *****************but she had a repayment document that also tacked on 10% interest per annum spread over a 6 month course. If I fail to make one payment on time, all debt and interest become due immediately.************

          Tell her to take her acceleration clause and shove it. Don't you dare sign the thing.
          In fact do not sign anything~!!


          *********** And more. In her Notice to Vacate, she states that I am not to compete with her and any and all merchandise I have pertaining to belly dance or square dance cannot be sold in the store and some more things.************

          She can not hand you a Notice to Vacate that also has demands that you not compete. Ignore her.

          Unless you previously executed an agreement with a no compete clause in it - AND - the agreement was made for consideration you can do any damn thing you please.
          Do not sigh anything - at all.


          ************* I called her and I told her that she was going way over and beyond what is necessary.*********

          Sounds to me like she's making shit up and hoping to sandbag you because you don't know the law.

          To begin:
          I would not pay her any arrears. I'd force her to negotiate with me or to spend the money to sue me, which would cost her some money and time. If she is incorporated then, by law she may not represent herself in most states. This means she'll need to pony up about $5-Grand to sue you. And unless you two have a prior agreement that stipulates attorney's fees, she is going to pay her lawyer all by herself.

          Even if there is an attorney's fees provision in your prior agreements: Most of them are pretty damn worthless. I always have the exact hourly rate that I charge as "full rate" fees in all the agreements I do for my clients. This way, no judge can sit safely behind his bench and decide that he is only giving me some lousy $10.00 an hour because the other side cried about it being unfair. The signed agreement has the exact dollar amount per hour that will be paid to me if my client has to sue to get paid. It's always my highest rate. Whenever you are behind the 8-Ball for attorney's fees, always raise the question of equity and reasonableness.


          I suggest that you withhold paying her anything until you two work something out. Something that inures to your advantage.
          It's not theft it is mere non-payment. No crime is involved.


          ***********The more I think about it, the more I am leaning toward not signing anything.**********

          Give me ONE reason why you would sign anything~!! Just one.

          Look, I am not an attorney in your state (CA) and each state has different laws but, I am an attorney and I am licensed in three non-reciprocal jurisdictions plus Federal. I am telling you not to sign anything. That to do so would be a serious mistake.


          ***********I might go to legal aid or the bar association and seek a lawyer to look this over.************

          Never a bad idea that.


          .


          • Re: Small Business Loan

            Thu, June 5, 2008 - 11:26 AM
            Well done, Cliff.

            As for fixtures and inventory...
            You should be able to find used fixtures, there were several stores in L.A. that carried them. I'm sure SF is no different. If you are thinking of applying for a loan, you may find it easier to get a credit from your suppliers. Craigslist, Freecycle, you just never know what you'll find there.
            Besides, if you manage to save on fixtures then your loan will go even further.

            Best of luck.

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