Judith asked for more discussion on this so I'm starting a new thread. I am far from being any kind of Waldorf expert so may blunder here. Most of what I know is about early education and ideas such as children being shielded from television and plastic toys and that sort of thing. In a way, there is a very narrow world view in the Waldorf philosophy. It is a lovely view, but narrow all the same, if that makes sense.
The other thing about Waldorf, and maybe this belongs more in an unschooling forum, but for me unschooling IS spiritual parenting, is that it is still school. There is still a right way and a wrong way to do things, children are much closer to freedom, but still they are not free to choose to go to school every day or not, what time to arrive, when to sit still and when to move (though I understand this varies, yes?). They are not free to choose a more plastic filled life if that should interest them (sure, you hope it won't, but what if it does?)
There are a lot of things I like about Waldorf, but from what I know it seems rather limiting--not to the same degree as public school, obviously, but still there's a kind of underlying feeling that if you watch TV, eat chips, play with plastic toys and wear polyester PJ's, there is something amiss with you. I know for some people that feels like truth, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I think we live in a great big world of wonder and our children should be free to explore all aspects of this, even when it comes to things that we don't always like, such as TV.
Anyway, looking forward to hearing more thoughts from others.
The other thing about Waldorf, and maybe this belongs more in an unschooling forum, but for me unschooling IS spiritual parenting, is that it is still school. There is still a right way and a wrong way to do things, children are much closer to freedom, but still they are not free to choose to go to school every day or not, what time to arrive, when to sit still and when to move (though I understand this varies, yes?). They are not free to choose a more plastic filled life if that should interest them (sure, you hope it won't, but what if it does?)
There are a lot of things I like about Waldorf, but from what I know it seems rather limiting--not to the same degree as public school, obviously, but still there's a kind of underlying feeling that if you watch TV, eat chips, play with plastic toys and wear polyester PJ's, there is something amiss with you. I know for some people that feels like truth, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I think we live in a great big world of wonder and our children should be free to explore all aspects of this, even when it comes to things that we don't always like, such as TV.
Anyway, looking forward to hearing more thoughts from others.
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 3:57 PMI need to get back to lab but figurer I'll start the chime-in since I started the idea...
same way, unschooling/unscheduling is ONE way to be spiritual, not the only way.
I find in my own life I'm very bohemian in many ways, and very appreciative of structure in others...the monastic life appeals to me in many ways. I tend to be very low-tech (these computers for finding friends and interesting discussion are about my main concession to 21st century technologies) and have a lot in common lifestyle-wise with Steiner/Waldorf families...I also live TV free, garden strictly organically though not necessarily biodynamically, prefer wooden toys and unamplified music... but my point of departure from their spiritual path, ANthroposophy, is that it is SOOO anthropcentric! I do not believe that humans are the "crown of creation" and honestly, elarning in high school that traditional Waldorf people distrust the theory of evolution ebcause "man has never been an animal...the good God created the animal kingdowm so Man could become Man..." is kind of creepy some thirty years plus later.
for me there's nothing about my spiritual life that studying Darwin and evolutionary biology negates, though I respect the beliefs of those for whom a more literal interpretation, or a more occult, "received" vision of how lfie, including human life, came to be what it now is, got here...
okay, I better get back to class. more to follow... -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 2:00 AMThanks for starting this.
I also think Waldorf has some aspects that really resonate with me, some things that sound great but aren't so great in practice, and some stuff that is just wack. I'm all for non-toxic environments, baking bread, going outside, singing and storytelling. Those are great things. but as Fairy said, what if my child is really interested in how computers work? what if her passion is electronic music? It seems to me that any system that dictates what is best for all children, ignores the needs of all specific children, if you know what I mean. It's the difference between saying "what are you interested in learning?" and "today we are learning about (felting, baking, seasons, whatever)".
Also, personally, we don't have all wooden toys in our home, we watch movies and tv shows on DVD (no advertising) so it would seem a bit strange for me to insist on that in a schooling environment.
The "wack" part for me, is discouraging children's natural interests because a theory says that it isn't good for them. Like a waldorf teacher I know discourages her preschool children from any reading and writing if they ask about it, to the point of walking away from a child who is asking how to write his name. Now, to me, not teaching reading and writing to a 5 year old is one thing, but ignoring a child's request to learn is another. Sometimes I think theories get in the way.
That said, Waldorf works for a lot of families and offers a lot of things that public schooling doesn't. Personally, I'm hoping to get enough parents together to start a wondertree school when Juni hits that stage. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 1:02 PMthe "one approach fits all" is where I ran into problems as a Waldorf student. it;s funny because looking back on it now over 30 years later...it did me some favors in a weird way. I'm very left-brained and Waldorf emphasizes right brain strongly. and the reading thing woiuld have been all wrong for me as a little child...I was an early reader and loved it...I think for kids who just aren't developmentally ready for the early academics curriculum that they push these days, the gentle Waldorf approach to the arts and a more dream-like learning is perfect. and I can, frankly, see some of what they mean about how kids like me were like "40 eyar old midgets."
sometimes I think it's GOOD for kids who have a lot of the electronic etc stuff at home to be in a shcool environment that emphasizes other stuff, actually. helps give an appreciation for the diverse ways of living. but when there is a conflict between what a school is pushing as the "right" way to live and how families actually live, it can hurt ior at least confuse...again, depends on who and when.
where it gets too wack for me is the over-emphasis on how "sensitive" young chidlren are...I mean, sure they are, but when it gets to where it;s not good to dress children in stripes instead of solids because it "disrupts unity" or something...hey, if we were that delicate in childhood, we'd have died out as a species years ago.
which brings me to my primary philosophical point of departure from Steiner...we ARE one more animal species, part of the wonderful domain Animalia.
I kmind of miss a lot of what I got from attending Waldorf school, now that I'm over 30 eyares departed from same. many of the things I learned to love there...organic gardening, naturopathic medicine, music, some crafts (it took me a while to really get with it), and , yes, my spiritual life although it;s different from the standard ANthroposophic one...are very much aprt of my life today.
still figuring it all out, Judith
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 11:25 PMI am new to waldorf school this year. I tried to do a lot of research, but honestly, there isn't really much out there on the internet at least. Just the basic history. My son attends a public charter waldorf school so it is less strict than the private waldorf, which I kind of like. I want there to be more focus of reading before 3rd grade. I am just not looking forward to standardized tests. I hate this whole school choice thing, when we go to a school we choose and they see that my son is not going to boost their scores, they don't really want to work with me. Maybe I am just to shy and laid back.
Anyways...I like the whole no logo thing. And no tv on school nights suggested by the school makes it easier for me to say no to to much tv. though now that it is winter we are watching a few educational videos from the library.
What more can you tell me about waldorf? I put my son in this school because I was sick of the public school and I can't afford private. IT is the first year of this particular school so they definatly have some kinks to iron out before it is more smooth running. I drive 2 hours a day sometimes getting him to and from school, so I really want it to work out for him. I am liking it better than last year, but there are still problems. I guess we can never have a perfect school experience! arg! Just important to teach our kids to be able to handle the situations that life hands us and remain as stable as we can through the hard ones and know that better times are on the way... -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sun, January 20, 2008 - 10:57 AMhonestly, I think a Waldorf program can be a real godsend for a child like the one you mention here. the kids who seem to really blossom there are the ones who are artistic and ma -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sun, January 20, 2008 - 11:03 AMsorry last post got cut off...slip of the mouse.
the children who seem to really, really blossom in a EWaldo\rf setting are often those who move on their own schedule especially with regards to reading. I don;t agree with the strict "it's BAD to start reading too soon" but for many kids who just aren;t ready, it;s a godsend to be somewhere they aren;t made to feel "intervention cases" and often, these chidlren do great with the emphasis on mythology, arts and crafts, music etc.
I have taught in the public schools plenty and I can tell you this emphasis on early acquisition of reading is absurd...and Iw as an early reader myslef! developmentally, kids move at different rates.
I don;t, as I said, share all their spiritual and philosophical beliefs, but I do like the essential kindness behind the WAldorf orientation.
it isn;t the best thing for all kids...what is? but it sounds like a pretty good place for our son as you describe it.
I really do have a beef with this teting stuff in the primary grades especially.
my own child was in various private schools, mostly Montessori, until 5thj grade and had never taken a standardized s\\test. she was a little nervous and I wondered if I;d sheltered her too much...guess what? she turns out to be a highly skilled test-taker (she's now in eighth grade, finished ALgebra I in 7th grade, and got near-perfect scores on the alst set of Star Tests...just shows you kids don;t need that early exposure to it to be able to handle it when they need to.,
more later, I better go back to class...Judith
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 3:57 PM
Hey gals. We are also exploring Waldorf curriculum and teachings. My son is only a year old though, so we have some time to decide.
One web resource that has been particularly helpful is the Waldorf Home Educators yahoo group listserv. It's pretty insightful as to the typical questions/challenges people have with Waldorf schooling, as well as passionate beliefs behind it. And, it's moderated by a wonderful, highly experienced Waldorf Educator, Miss Marsha, who frequently has some *gem* postings exploring all aspects of Waldorf philosophy, including spiritual life.
Has anyone read Steiner's Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment? It's I'm purusing through it now, and have found it pretty helpful as far as gaining better understanding of the spiritual domain of Waldorf teachings. If anyone hasn't read it, I'd recommend at least scanning the table of contents. See wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA0...index.html
I do like Steiner's idea of "group learning". I know that he believed that a society that learned to learn together and work together, would ultimately never go to war. Imagine, a society that never went to war?!! It makes me scream, YES! I grew up in a progressive "open" elementary school environment where there were no tables, you learned what you wanted, when you wanted, and if you wanted. That was part of the early radical 1970's education movement in the U.S (sadly since has largely lost flame. For me that type of early learning was beneficial and optimal for the generation that I incarnated into. I also remember it as a very happy time. However, it seems that culturally, and as a nation, we are at a real spiritual shifting point, and I believe that fostering *group* harmony will be key in the years and decades ahead. Call it intuition...
So, whether to fully Waldorf, or partially Waldorf....either way, there's depth and richness the learning approach.
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 7:38 PMMy husband and I decided to send our daughter to the Waldorf school in Austin - though she's only 2, but I researched the learning opportunities in the area and we deemed it to be the best alternative for our family. I am interested in learning more about Waldorf education, and particularly home-schooling - to keep it as an option - i have appreciated this thread! -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 6:41 AMI also appreciate this thread and my family is leaning towards Waldorf school...
I really liked the book "you are your childs first teacher" which is basically from a Waldorf point of view for kids from 0-7.
It explains a lot about the idea behind things, I think.
I resonate strongly with giving my daughter a creative, rhythmical, asthetic childhood...and boundaries...
the modern world will impose itself anyway...all I can do is give her this precious little time of innocence to the best of my ability.
We don't have a TV anyway-- though we do use computers a lot...
All that said...in practice, it would be pretty hard to stick with waldorf ideals completely.
I don't feel a great need to (maybe I would if I felt pressured by a waldorf community?)
I just take what feels helpful and not what doesn't.
She has some plactic toys, for example, it doesn't bother me...I'm a believer in moderation.
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 6:45 AMoh also... I DO imagine it really does depend on the child.
If my daughter gets older and really needs something different...we'll change our plan.
(I agree, I do imagine those who would flourish are the naturally creative types...
my daughter may be all mathy, who knows!?)
I'm also a bit shocked (in previous post) by not offering children information if the ASK.
I've not heard of that. My impression was that reading and writing were not taught until a certain time...
but if the child naturally went that way on their own or asked...that was fine.
I would certainly help my child learn whatever she seemed driven to learn. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 11:23 AMThat was surprising to me as well - i would certainly want the teacher to facilitate learning at my child's behest. And that is certainly something I will inquire about when interviewing her instructor.
Our family seems naturally to very much fit in with the Waldorf ideals - the no t.v. is a good example - though i wouldn't let myself feel pressured to fit into everything 100%. Our home life will still be as it naturally is :)
In all of my questions to various sources on the subject, I did find that a lot of parents think that it is like sending their child to a private school, rather than following a specific teaching methodology...and so they [the parents] can get a bit antsy about the time frames. But I must say I love the way they teach the classes with emphasis on the children's developmental age range. Gosh, I wish I could've studied some of the core subjects that way :) would've made the experience much more interesting! -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 1:44 PMThanks for the yahoo group suggestion, I want to read through that.
I am so interested in teaching my child a Waldorff sytle but there are other tings that really bother me too. (IE) they lean heavily on Medieval History--fairy tales (!) and teaching German language as the only language choice (or maybe it was spanish too, does that vary from school to school?)
I understand Steiner was German but do all of the sotry tellings have to be german fairy tales? It kind of bothers me--all the knights and castles--it was pretty sexist back then and cruel, if you know what I mean. Children also role play princesses and knights with swords, and genderising is one thing, but those characters I am not so happy about.
It seems rather caught up in a very IDYLLIC forest fairy world.
BUT I do love so much about it too, like planting and farming, etc.
any one else have issues with this specific fairy tale thing like me, and how can I temper myself? -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 3:38 PMI like more international/multi-continental tales tales too.Steiner was a product of his time and place, early 20th century Europe, and the curriculum reflects that. if you are home-schooling, and you want to add elements of African,Asian,and North and South American culture through folktales,arts and crafts,culture history/anthropology,which was my major in college...(oh
I forgot Oceania and Polynesia, you get the picture...) why not?
as far as the German thing goes..I'm from California, and our Waldorf school offered Spanish (we have plenty of native speakers here),and sometimes French, as well as German. Waldorf education strongly prefers native speakers as teachers (makes sense), though in Europe multilingualism is more the norm anyway,so it's more likely someone could speak German,French,and Italian,or English, German, and Dutch, or Portuguese and Spanish, with equal or near-equal,native-like fluency.)
to get a more contemporary perspective fro a US Waldorf early ed teacher, I recommend Rahima Baldwin Dancy's book "You Are Your Child's FIrst Teacher." (she's also a midwife , student of Sufism,and author of some books on childbirth from the late 70s.) she addresses some of the fairy tale stuff there.
my own experience and feeling is that kids vary a lot, and some real\lly need that "evil witch cooking children" (or its equivalent) stuff and maybe the kinghts and courtly maidens business too,
, to work out their ow inner struggles. other kids resonate better with other kinds of stories from other cultures. Steiner was in line in some ways with psychologist Carl G Jung about how the figures in fairy tales were really about inner forces within the listener, and thatkids are in a more "primal" place in their psyches than adults, and that is where the effect happens.
I'm probably never going to have the kind of faith in the gnome world that stalwart Waldorf households and teachers have but I don;t think its necessarily bad for them to be exposed to it by teachers who do. I don't agree with all the causation that Steiner-inspired B odynamic gardening and farming posits, but I have to say it makes for beautiful all-organic products, and can help heal the earth.
speaking of which,if you are planning to buy flowers for Mothers Day...look for organically grown sources! I;ve found two organic flower farms that deliver beautiful cut flowers,or check your farmers market.
Waldorf or otherwise,we need to come up with sustainable,non-toxic ways to bring forth the earth's bounty..now more than ever.
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 7:29 AMWell, I actually do like Steiner's contributions to the harvest, and "buy into" his system of biodynamism. I believe in food energetics. I also appreciate the cosmic integration into the "here and now" of growing food and sustaining ecosystems (which humans are a part of). Organic holistic farming is one thing and I just appreciate Steiner's cosmic expansion of it.
But the Waldorf school has shortcomings like a Montessori school does, in my mind. It teaches from one philosophy, and one that is a product of its time period. (almost 100 years ago). Neither have been expanded upon since.!. (ie) I LOVE alternative teaching syles and new developments in learning theory. However, neither Waldorf or Montessori integrate the new findings into their teaching approach. IN that regard they are non-progressive. Waldorf for its Eurocentricism, and Montessori (which is more multicultural) for its strict methodology.
Both MOntessori and Waldorf are growing trends because they offer an alternative to public school methods, but I don't think parents really understand that they are not that progressive in regards to ongoing studies in child development.
I have a friend who sent her daughter to the Chicago Waldorf school from when she was in kindergarten to the 8th grade. She then was accepted into one of the city's top arts academies for high school. I talked with her mom about the Waldorf education thinking it must have done them well, but she to my surprise said she actually faught with the instructors towards the end. They didn't teach her daughter anything but the Steiner way of painting, and she had to give them presentations on why it wasn't beneficial to her daughter anymore to paint that way, and she had to show them other ways to teach painting so her daughter could grow and expand. This was an eye opener, as she was really frustrated.
I have also read this frustration with parents who all of the sudden realise that the teachings are all based on Antrhoposophy, and must refelct that belief. Meaning their children's art work must reflect those principles as well, and be in service to them. That is greatly limiting and surprises parents who are interested in the school because they want their child to develope and benefit from creative expression.
Waldorf is deeply entwined with a relgious view point and a continuation of this spiritual position.
This is one of the reasons why I am skeptical of their use of fairy tales and their fervent desire to believe in gnomes. I took classes analysing the psychological content of fairy tales and folk tales, the use of myth in storytelling etc. when I was in college. One professor said the psychological analysis is one way to read the text. There is also the telling of history, political structures to be learned, gender roles and how they structured, economic structures, power structures, moral environments, etc. So I then become concerened with Waldorf's motivation behind teaching these specific stories---what kind of scoio-economic structures are they trying to relay to the kids? And I know that sounds waaaaay too overly concerned for me to be putting on a 3 year old say, but Waldorf is grounded on a specific spiritual philosophy and puts forth specific roles for boys and girls to perform. There is a large throw back to the natural world, which doesn't exist anymore, but in fairy tales and tales of forest fairies, and upon anaylsis, these tales are medieval in socio-economic class structure.
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 1:14 PMFunny, I have been thinking a lot about what kt brings up here lately. I make fairies and gnomes. The dolls I make are much like Waldorf dolls so I've been doing a lot of studying of Waldorf toys. It really struck me how focused on fairy tales Waldorf seems to be, and I found it ironic that the fairy tales, with their violence, heirarchical structure and pretty rigid gender dynamic, are OK, but the stories one might see on television are not. I know it's more complex than that, but I also feel that I would be doing my son a disservice by limiting his exposure to storytelling to just those kinds of stories. I will of course be telling him stories about fairies and gnomes, and about all sorts of other things, too. I definitely think children, even tiny children, need story to help them make sense of the world. But I think they need all kinds of stories, really ALL kinds of stories. And I for one think that movies are a wonderful storytelling medium. What is really the difference between a Grimm's fairy tale and a Disney movie? (apart from all the advertising and merchandising--and how is that all so different from all the Waldorf merchandising?)
I also find it fascinating that pirates seem to be OK in the Waldorf world. That is really interesting to me. Does anyone know why that is, or am I just imagining it? I confess my ignorance about the deeper ins and outs of Waldorf, but because of the toy thing I've been really curious lately. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 5:07 PMsome really good points raised here.. my reactions on some of this:
Biodynamics..I didn't like that most of us in the Waldorf school where I went were vegetarian in high school,and many of the products used in Biodynamics are slaughterhouse products (e.g.,manure packed into hundreds of cow horns one by one and then buried and composted in a specific may, other products packed into cow skulls...now an integrated farm that raises animals and plants is going to have some ways that the animals will be returned to the soil,and that's good.
Disney movies: never have liked them much,except for maybe Fantasia (and the 2000 Fantasia II..and MAYBE Brother Bear.)Ij t f ind they don;t do complex tales of magic justice...and I dont just mean classic folklore...the original PL Travers "Mary Poppins" from The 1930s to1940s is so much more complex and interesting than the 1964 movie with Julie Andrew.s..plus they scripted out three of the 5 Banks children in the movie! ify ou haven;tread the books with y our kids...they are still in print..get' em from the library or pickup some copies and go for it.
I guess I;ve arrived at the "there are so many ways for a family to live!" way of thinking. I'm not sure it;s a "disservice" to not have certain things in the house if you really don;t feel they work into your lifestyle...I don;t watch TV and while I never made rules about whethe many r my child could see TV at anyone else's house, I don't think she missed it. at home if anything,it was a special treat because it was something she didn't usually do...not something that was always on and could be taken for granted. she's been a lot of places and had a lot of experiences that other children haven't had.
parents have to make choices all the time,about house rules, how people are addressed (some people are totally shocked by my daughter calling me by my first name and say that's"disrespectful." I say our household is based on mutual respect and if she tells me I'm "the best mother ever" what does it matter whether she calls me Mom or Judith?),what kinds of food to serve, whether to use the TV or videos and if so,in what ways,what kinds of religious or spiritua l practices if any, what holidays to celebrate and how...and more and more...
my friend, a childbirth educator who worked for Rahima Baldwin'si Informed Birth and Parenting for a lot of years,said she saw something interesting and spooky about the"no TV before age 12 thing", she felt the kids who'd lived with that often glommed onto the TV to make up for lost time when being allowed to watch TV was considered a rite of passage at age 12.
well...take what you can use and leave the rest,is what it comes to, really. the K-1-2 class at my daughter's school has elements of Montessori AND Waldorf,and some stuff the teacher added himself over the years because he likes it...and it works.
for me, I like a more multicultural,multi-sensory approach than most "classical"systems...and I also think children will always find what works best for them, anyway. I really love the Waldorf natural-materials toys, the emphasis on crafts and music, the essential kindness .i don;t l ke the Eurocentrism and the arguments with humans being part of animal evolution. there's a lot of rigidity to the structure,but itl;s also pretty gentle and kind.
gotta go,lotsa work to do. more later...thanks for a stimulating look into my own past and how ita ffects our chidlren today and beyond -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 5:04 AMHI Fairy and Judith-
Just briefly, I agree that fairy tales can be part of a growing child's repertoire. Waldorf limitations are consistent with their curriculum, if I 'm not mistaken, which teaches Norse Mythology (that's pretty rare, who else teaches that?) so it makes me question why Waldorf does. What about Norse myth and medieval history that is essential for child's development and his/her world/cosmic view? It's a very specific, narrow focus.
Which leads me questioning in another area: when you start to consider that this is education for a child K-8. I I understand it is private and one chooses to send a child there, so you will be in agreement I suppose with the curriculum and teaching method (and spirituality). But on a flip side of the coin, it seems irresponsible (?) to not consider other ideas on child development (or other content) and not incorporate that into your environment--as the child grows in age. And when they refuse to integrate, it emphasizes in my mind that the school really is a vessel for disseminating only a spiritual philosophy. It mimcs monastic models in my mind.
So much to think about and I appreciate being aable to talk about this. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 5:15 AMJudith, I just reread some notes and I am thinking you went to Waldorf when younger (?) Sorry I didn't incorporate that into my discussions, and maybe you can help inform me more too! -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 3:25 PMyes...WAY younger! I graduated Waldorf hghschool in a southern California schoolwith ak-12 program...wewereIthinkthe third graduatingclass,maybe 4th..and it;llbe timeformyhighschool35th reunion soon.
I have a 13 year old daughter in 8th grade. she went to a Waldorf-oriented home play school where she WASN'T really happy (long story on that) and a Waldorf-oriented day camp here in Berkeley that she really lked,one or two summers for a few weeks, but never attended any formal Waldorf school. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 9:33 PMMy daughter is only one too but we are going to either waldorf home school her or send her to a waldorf school.
I have watched almost all my friends with kids raise there kids in waldorf and they are so amazing, bright and creative.
I for one love the focus on age appropriate learning. I also love the mythology. I love that the hard facts of science and such are not taught until the later grades, and that reading is delayed.The first years are all about keeping the imagination and creativity flowing.
When a kid asks about why the sky is blue instead of a scientific answer they are given a poetic answer about some astral being painting the colors of nature . A lot of mythology is used to explain science in the early years, again this is to keep the imagination open and flowing.
However, in the higher grades kids are then taught all the facts and will even learn how to BUILD a computer in the ninth grade.
So you see, it;s all about age appropriate learning. Giving a young child a very detailed , scientific account of why the sky is blue would go right over there head and would only serve to take him out of that magical child's world prematurely...
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 9:32 AM>But on a flip side of the coin, it seems irresponsible (?) to not consider other ideas on child development (or other content) and not incorporate that into your environment--as the child grows in age.
I think this is here the home enviroment comes into play. Even with public school - there is a certain curriculum which is followed, but then it's up to the family to help fill in the rest of the education. At the Waldorf school in Austin, they expect the children to learn to play a musical instrument outside the school hours - I love that. There is so much more my husband and I will teach my child - which will serve to supplement and further our child's OverAll learning. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 11:37 AMWhat if your child doesn't want to play a musical instrument? What if he doesn't want to build a computer? What if he really wants to read before he reaches the designated age?
While it seems like Waldorf certainly makes a lot more room for children's creativity to blossom, I don't think I would credit Waldorf with making children creative and intelligent. Most children are creative and intelligent, but often don't get the chance to express that in ways that really interest them once they get into conventional school. I think Waldorf sounds magical and great as far as it goes, but the idea of age appropriate makes me uneasy when it comes to learning, and most other things, too, except in matters of safety. We may believe that a child should have a sheltered innocence until a certain age, including not being taught to read, but what if the child doesn't feel that way? I taught myself to read when I was three. That is, my mother read to me a good bit and I figured out the rest myself. She didn't teach me anything, I just wanted to know, I wanted to unlock the power of what was in those books, because books clearly had power. She had no idea I could read until she heard me doing it. Refusing to allow a child access to that could end up seeming like one more way to deny them any power over their own lives (or they just figure it out anyway).
I really think it's possible to allow children to participate in deciding what they should and shouldn't learn. Actually, to me it seems more than possible, it seems crucial. Waldorf seems to come a lot closer to that than, say, public school. And it's wonderful to think of our children living in a magical land of fairies and elves without bumping up against the harsher aspects of contemporary culture, but what if they don't want to live in that world?
This is a question I grapple with. I don't mean to be heavy handed, but rather to say that I often ponder these things. I do wonder whether I should have gone the route of protecting my son from television but ,as someone I really admire recently said, perhaps we give TV a little too much credit. That is, it only has the power we give it by the fear we put into it and I think that applies to a lot of the things we try to avoid for our children, me included. More than anything, I want to model for my son how to live a fearless life, even if that means we bump up against some unpleasantness from time to time. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 1:19 PMWhat if your child doesn't want to play a musical instrument?
-She actively plays piano and guitar on her own (well, as best she can, she's only two.)
What if he really wants to read before he reaches the designated age?
-Then I would teach her to read. I was reading by three, she already "reads" on her own. In fact, she would rather do it herself than have me read to her. it's pretty funny. she hands me a book and then climbs beside me with her own to read. I help her when she is receptive.
What if he doesn't want to build a computer?
-Well, I suppose the only way for me to answer this would be = There were quite a great many things I didn't want to do in school. I would have rather done anything artistic. But I had to do the things I didn't necessarily want to do in order to graduate. Sort of like everything else that comes along with life. Sometimes I don't want to do something, but need to - it's for my best or the best of mi familia. Building a computer at least show an interesting aspect of creativity to me. Maybe my daughter will hate it? I can't say. We have to see how she develops. She is intensely creative already - but my husband and I are super creative, so we can see where she gets it :)
Of course it's possible for the child to participate in deciding what they should learn, and when. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that statement. I guess I have gotten a different impression for the way Waldorf integrates age appropriate activities into the classes. At least at the one here in Austin, they still study the sciences and humanities, but special lessons are built into it that would be intriguing to a person of the general age. Like they study specific eras in history that would be of particular interest to a young blossoming adult, etc. And yes, sure, not all children will enjoy it and it might not be completely on targeā for everyone. What I am looking for is a solid educational foundation for my child that appears to be more enjoyable and inspiring than the one I had. I hated middle school and high school, and perhaps she might have the opportunity to enjoy them? Perhaps she will have instructors that are better equipped to facilitate the learning of subjects that fill her with passion? I hope to help instill the life-long passion for learning that her father and I both possess.
Of course I will listen to her needs. If she got to a point where she didn't want to continue Waldorf, I wouldn't force it. I think it all depends on what you determine is right for your child. I did ponder home schooling (finally, finally finished college May 3rd! After several breaks during college, I am pleased to say I am done with my undergrad studies and finished for the meantime). I have also looked into other private and charter schools in the area. But for our little family, at least right now, Waldorf seems to be the right choice for us.
The t.v. thing - well, yes, I see your point. We don't use one. People keep insisting on giving them to us. "What do you do?!" They ask when we say we don't watch television. The most recent one, my hubby played some video games with it. I am not scared of t.v., I let my daughter watch movies on the computer, as I do sometimes too. Mostly not having television central in the family home means more time for other things. I get a lot done, my child plays in the park with her friends all week long, takes gymnastics and builds her coordination, is about to start a small preschool with me a couple of days a week...there's just a lot to do that I find much more enriching than watching the cw. We are absolutely raising our daughter not to fear...and we do our best not to fear as well. Avoidance of environmental factors that inhibit or negatively affect our growth is different than reacting out of fearing them. I think some people than I've encountered don't understand that I feel that way.
Lastly, your statement "More than anything, I want to model for my son how to live a fearless life, even if that means we bump up against some unpleasantness from time to time," I do truly agree with. But then that goes back to your original questions. Perhaps a child might find building the computer (or other academic pursuits) unpleasant, but I think ultimately you and I are looking towards the same interests. My family does appear to function quite differently from those small units relatively near to me (our friends & acquaintances) but we do what we really believe to be truly best for our offspring. As I am sure everyone else does.
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Mon, May 19, 2008 - 1:03 PMSounds like your daughter is someone who will thrive in the Waldorf environment and it seems pretty great that you've found a good match for her. I didn't actually mean to pick on you, meant a more general you--just in general what if the kids don't think these things are as great as the adults think they are? What you were saying about having to do a lot of things you didn't want to in school, I think that's true for everyone and some kids are OK with that and some are made miserable by it. That's why we've decided not to send our son to school, unless when he's older he really decides he wants to go. As far as I can tell, my son seems to be a lot like me and school, especially the only school available in this remote area, would not be a good environment for him. He's very spirited and I think for him to function in the school environment that spirit would have to be broken. I could be wrong, I don't really know what school would or wouldn't be like for him. But so far I can see what freedom is like for him, and I like how it feels for both of us.
I'm actually of the opinion that we don't instill a love of learning in our children, that they come into the world with that love and passion perfectly intact. I think we can stamp that right out with our fearful controlling, or we can nurture it and help keep it alive. I think that's actually what you were saying, but just wanted to say that as a matter of semantics I would word it differently (and am not implying that you are fearful, again it's a general statement more abuot myself).
I have a tendency to be both fearful and controlling so I've done a lot of thinking and internal work around this with regard to my parenting. I don't know how it will all play out, but so far I feel really good about the relationship I have with my son. He's almost two, he's no prodigy. He doesn't play musical instruments or speak in complete sentences or read by himself (though he also does pick his own books and sit on the bed between us and 'read' while we're reading and he does like to make noise with his harmonica). But there's no reason he should do those things if he isn't interested. He's a headstrong boy with a headstrong mama so the most important thing for us right now is learning to be gentle with each other.
Anyway, we're all finding the paths to walk with our children that best suit our individual families. I do have moments what I really want to convince everyone to do away with the whole school thing for kids, but I know that a lot of kids actually like school and for some it's actually a refuge, as painful as that is to contemplate. One thing I can say about Waldorf is that while most adults will relate how hideous their school experiences were, it does seem that people who went Waldorf the whole way don't have those same horrid memories and that says a lot. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Mon, May 19, 2008 - 3:42 PMthat's cool, and for what it's worth - your statement "I'm actually of the opinion that we don't instill a love of learning in our children, that they come into the world with that love and passion perfectly intact. " I actually agree with!! that's why I said I hope to help instill a love of learning. Environmental factors can help or hinder. I've lived next door to grade school children that had literally NO books whatsoever. It was a really rough situation. I helped where i could, ultimately it wasn't as good as the parent's could have done. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Thu, May 22, 2008 - 9:44 AMHi I'm jumping in here. I agree with the statement "instilling the love of learning" in our children. And I suppose there are many different approaches to help a child to learn, and to learn on their own------which is the point right? to foster all this curiosity , to develop imagination to see beyond the obvious, to develop higher reasoning faculties to question and inquire, to be life long creators and helpers.
One could write a thesis paper on what imagination and creativity is, in a child and in humans in general. So I can only briefly comment here: I am just wondering what delayed reading has to do with fostering greater imagination in a child? How does it strengthen imagination, or teach creativity? Also, how does telling a child that a fairy painted the sky blue help a child to be imaginative? Doesn't it just tell him that a fairy painted the sky? What's the difference between being told about fairies and about water particles and light rays? What's so scary and uncreative about science?
I get hung up here as it seems that there is this precious holding onto some concept of innocence. In my mind, and what I'd like to research, I really challenge that (1) innocence needs to be protected and prolonged (2) that creativity depends on surreal fantasy (3) that imagination needs to be separate from reasons and factual nature and that (4) once children reach a certain age threshold are they allowed to use things like reading and language skills, and scientific reason but not until that age.
For me, this is why I look to progressive studies on child development and theories on creativity (expression) and mental faculties (like reason and imagination) because they are much more inclusive on what a child is not only capable of being at any given age, they are far more encouraging for child to become more of himself too.
I may be way off base for this thread tho. -
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Thu, May 22, 2008 - 12:27 PMI don't think you are off base for the thread at all. I am still figuring out how well our family fits in with Waldorf in general...but I think it will be well beyond our public school fit ;) And, well, if baby asked me why the sky is blue - I'd tell her what I know about it...and I haven't heard it to be painted by a fairy :) I love,L0ve,L0VeD fairy tales and fables when I was a child. I think she might like the fantasy elements as well. But my job as a parent will be to give her as much help as possible in her learning. School will only do so much - and then it will be up to us to fill in everything else until she get to a point where she is able to readily do her own research. We will help instill (don't want to sound as if she doesn't have a natural drive on her own) and that's a big job. Left alone in grade school, the poverty stricken kids I lived next to and was reaching out to...were...whew. Those were some dark days.
I do acknowledge that while we are also voracious information hounds and avid readers, Much - if not Most - of my tiny family's learning is experiential. For instance, right now she is learning experientially, also by mimicking what she sees us do - it's very great. We are there to help open gateways - I plan to teach her to read as soon as she is of interest...which she is already, but wants to do it herself. I was reading at about 3, and my husband = wicked-smart, and she shows indications of earlier interest. I doubt we'd wait and teach it later.
Personally I like the fantastic realm that the school provides. We are only just now starting her with the preschool version and I suppose I can have a very different take on it. I like the methods and the educational style. But I sure will fill in the gaps where it is needed. My family questions far too much to stick to one single educational style. And I absolutely intend to teach her more than what the method might prescrib. But gosh I love the idea that she will spend the school portion of her day in such a magical place :)
This next paragragh is sort of a digression -
Simply, I am in it to get as much information in as I can while on this planet. And I'll pass on what I can to the kiddo and see where she goes from there - at this age we are stressing the foreign languages. For instance - while back home in Puerto Rico a couple of weeks ago we ran into a neighbor kid that just turned 5 and spoke English, Spanish, & French. He was still working on the French, but it was sounding good. For some reason it isn't approached the same way in the continental United States - even though it's far easier to cram all the languages in while your 3-5...maybe even up through 7. So far we are speaking English and Spanish to baby, maybe a little more English than Spanish in reality - but the bulk of what she would need to function in a latin country is being instilled and we will immerse her in the culture as often as we are able. Next up appears to most likely be Chinese and German. It is WAY easier to learn them all while young, while you are still working on forming so many synapses. You learn fluent tongue and inflection...I learned first and foremost how to sound like a Puerto Rican well before I had learned the language. LInguistics is truly fascinating. Admittedly, we are doing a lot :) and sometimes people look at me sideways.
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Re: Waldorf Discussion
Thu, May 22, 2008 - 12:31 PMi hate typos :( i type too fast and then don't catch them...doh...
always excited :P
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