Book changes

topic posted Sun, May 13, 2007 - 9:12 AM by  Makhanchor
I would like to see the answers to these questions:

Dear Jayadvaita Maharaja,

PAMHO, AGTSP!

We have not corresponded directly on the matter of book changes, or editing (or censoring?), and I have a few questions that I am sure you, more than anyone else could answer.

Apart from weird controversies, and at times polarized views on various subjects, I,of course) have always and always will consider you my very dear god brother. This is eternal, and by definition,controversies of these types, are (by their very nature) not eternal.

If you like, why not reply between the lines, with upper case so I can tell that it is you!

1. I admire and applaud your interest in comparing the 1974 texts with other edits and perhaps, (when not re-recorded over by Srila Prabhupada) the original tapes. As I have posted to others, this is as inevitable event as the pursuit of Dead Sea Scrolls or the Nag Hammadhi papyruses to cast new light on the body of Christian literature....Not only you will do primary research, and undoubtedly print facsimile editions of the pre-edited transcripts over which the eyes of future scholars for thousands of years will pour.

What I do not understand is why you have not pursued this scholarly work in a way unrelated to the primary texts of Srila Prabhupada's personally approved books? If your books will cast light on the published books, then what is the harm?..It is changing the original to make it "more authentic" etc. where the problem begins.

Suppose that Srila Prabhupada made "a lot of mistakes" in his approval of Hayagriva's editing?......Is it our place to change that even if we think it could be better following His transcript or even His tape?

No one goes after a published painting by Picasso, changing this and that to match his original sketch!

If there is bad editing, then why not simply write a commentary in another book designed specifically to amend errors either made or allowed in the book that perhaps "mistakenly" met His approval during His lifetime? That is the approved means of dealing with such a situation, and as an English Literature major at University, I learned this early on.

so, can you kindly explain the unusualness of your approach?



2. When extensive changes have been made to a book, (particularly posthumous changes) the fact that there has been significant alterations from the original copyrighted book is usually blazoned across the cover....NEW AND IMPROVED, WITH MORE AUTHENITC ADHERENCE TO THE ORIGINAL EDITING (OR EDITINGS) THAT HAD SLIPPED BY THE "UNWARY" AUTHOR'S GAZE"!....and similar such inducements to purchase THIS edition rather than some earlier "flawed" edition.....after all, what is the use of making editorial or other changes, if the fact is not fully publicized for all to see, complete with appropriate credit for the person who has re-edited the book?

Now, I suppose that doing that might give the impression of an unsettling discontinuity as every printing seems to have some "new and improved" additions and subtractions to it. Yet, if one observes these unannounced changes from the point of view of the PURCHASER of the book, it is really more unsettling to bump into changes that are not even slightly explained. (vis.) Many universities and colleges no longer feel secure in using the BGAI in class, due to the fact that a student purchasing a new Gita, and a student purchasing a used Gita, may end up in a quandary in class when it is found that there are unexplained differences in the two (or more!) book that give the creepy impression that the author has somehow come back from the "other side" to make these unexplained changes himself. Another example concerns a memorial/cremation service for a second generation boy who had been hit by a train while saving his girlfriend who was in front of it. This boy, Bala Krishna's son (from Saranagati) was to be cremated (a not to be repeated event) with passages of the Gita read "around the room" before the cremation. Unfortunately, no one had checked the passages selected for continuity before the ceremony began, so when mourners began to read, murmurs of protest arose from the pews, as (I suppose) they thought that the reader had "gone off the track" at a VERY inappropriate time of gravity and sorrow.

After the confusing reading, the passages were compared, and it was found that there were about three or four different versions of the same passages, and it became clear that several printings of the same Gita were present, many of them different than the others.

How do you consider that this sort of issue can be solved? Certainly it matters, as scholarship is based on authenticity, and when one is dealing with Scripture, or Shastra, authenticity takes on Ecclesiastical proportions that do not apply to ordinary books, (which are seldom changed without some sort of notice to the reading public, critics, reviewers etc.) Do you have a suggestion as to how to solve this conundrum?

3. How does re-copyrighting the books serve the BBT Trust?....From my limited perspective, it would seem that once copyrighted under the aegis of the BBTI, they (for all practical purposes) cease to BBT books and enter into a "gray area" of being books owned (in some sense) by two owners at once. It would seem, for sure, that as long as the BBT continues to not print the books for which it actually holds copyrights, that the appearance of Iskcon, the beneficiary of the BBT trust, has "outwitted" the Settler of the Trust by using the ruse of "re-editing" to to change the actual ownership of the Trust Assets out of the hands of the Trustees of the Trust and into the hands of the Beneficiary of the Trust....a most irregular relationship between Trust and Beneficiary!....after all, if Srila Prabhupada had intended Iskcon to control His books, then He would have not created a Trust in the first place that was specifically designed (for some divinely inscrutable reason) to keep Iskcon's collective "paws" off of His Legacy of Vani...the Assets of the Trust! (If I were a teenager and someone had left me a fortune in trust, I might be tempted to take lessons from Iskcon as to how to break such a Trust so that I could use the assets left to me as I pleased, rather than under the restrictive terms of the Trust!) Can you clear this up for me?

4. There are those who might take the unkind view that some of the "changes" are in fact nothing more than censorship. In fact, there are those (incomprehensibly STILL in positions of authority within Iskcon) who advocate changing the books to the extent that any comment Srila Prabhupada made that does not conform to Kali Yuga circa 1006, sociological evaluations. Such items as mentions of women, persons of African descent, size of brains,going to the moon, as well as comments about his God brothers should be toned down, eliminated, or replaced with opinions more in keeping with the mood of the current "Vox Populae". A case in point would be Virabahu prabhu's rejoinder when certain changes in the CC had been discovered, where Srila Prabhupada's charges of neglect and envy by his god brothers had been DELETED. Virabahu prabhu's view was that removing such comments was the "right thing to do" as such comments had generated disturbance in the "Vaishnava Community"....Considering that his wife is an initiate of Narayan Maharaja, one could clearly understand WHY he might prefer to see such troublesome passages deleted.

Do you think that the temporary inconvenience of a limited demographical representation of current day society justifies marring a deceased author's books that are meant to last and be in use for the next ten thousand years?...Will not history make a mockery of our efforts to "kiss the collective asses" of today's academic mediocrities instead of our steadfastly accepting that our Author's views are not to be censored?

So, while realizing that your time is limited, and that you travel extensively, I would appreciate some clarification on the issues raised above.

Your eternal servant,





Nara Narayan Vishwakarma das
posted by:
Makhanchor
Seattle
  • Re: Book changes

    Mon, May 14, 2007 - 4:21 AM
    Oh Makhancor, you hove opened a subject!

    Yes, the answers would be interesting to hear. Quite uneasy ones!

    But I have one thing for you to consider. Imagine what the translators to different languages have to deal with. I have translated Prabhupadas books into Czech for about 8 years and I tell you that it is nearly impossible to translate a scentence into another language without understandinig what the author wanted to tell in the first place. It is not a question of putting the words together, but conveying the thought to the reader. So we as translators had to understand it first before "translating" it and we have learned to "try to understand the mind of the author". With this in mind some minor changes could be reconciled, but major changes...

    I also remember one Polisc devotee girl having original tapes of the Krisna book literary enjoying the editing of existing text into more faithfull to the tapes. But, as you know most of the tapes are not available mostly because Prabhupada wanted them to be reused and re-recorded after. What a pity, it was done in that way, I must say. These questions would be non-existing. Now we have the opportunity to show ourselves how we will do with this issue. :-)

    YS

    Tattva-darsi
    • Re: Book changes

      Mon, May 14, 2007 - 11:31 AM
      It is a very important service to translate in to other languages. And I can understand the difficulty in capturing all the nuances of meaning when trying to do so.

      I just wonder why in the world of literary accomplishments it is Srila Prabhupada that has to go down as the one whose books are in need of change. I challenge that premise to start with. And if one feels the compulsion to point out the errors in his spiritual master's books posthumously, I think the proper way to do it would be to publish a footnotes version where EVERY SINGLE CHANGE is explained and justified, along with the original version and the reader could have the same information at his hands as the editors now have and could decide for himself the validity of the change. As it is we are being asked to TRUST the editor's judgement. I don't trust the editor's judgement. As it is they publish a list of a few changes that are justified and expect that everyone should just accept that as proof that all of their edits are justified. In my opinion that is not good enough.

      Personally I believe in boycots and do not read any of the edited books. I am fortunate enough to have a full set of Srila Prabhupada's books as they were published when he was present with us, and reading from them every day in class. Those are the books I have faith in. I think the precedent that is being set here (of posthumously editing Srila Prabhupada's books) is one of the most embarrassing things possible. I know of no one else who has done this to their spiritual master's books. What does this actually say? Was it a mistake for Srila Prabhupada to say these original books were ready for publishing? Personally I don't think so. They are fine as they are. As is stated in Srimad Bhagavatam :

      "On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest."

      vedabase.net/sb/1/5/11/
      • Re: Book changes

        Sun, May 20, 2007 - 10:32 AM
        Just to clarify Tattva darsi, I think that translating in to other languages as you are doing is a great service. My comments above are aimed at those who are changing the books in English that Srila Prabhupada had already finished while he was here with us.
        • Re: Book changes

          Mon, May 21, 2007 - 6:02 AM
          Dear Makhancor, I have understood your points. Do not worry. For me it was interesting point to consider - "to put complete trust in the version of books that were published while Prabhupada was present." It was new idea to me. An interesting one, worth of considering, no doubt.

          As atranslator I always wanted to come as close as possible to the original text/thought and sometimes we realy had to go deep into what the words actually mean in order to translate it properly. In some languages one had to put it in other words... Presently I am not doing this service any more, but I remember how some devotees like Dravida and Gopiparanadhana had helped us greatly in this regard and others did not. Phrases like "Supreme Personality of Godhead" and "Supoersoul" translated literary have no meaning or sound really wierd, so we had to find a phrase that explain that "God is Supreme Being and He is a Person" which is what we have found the phrase to mean. While translating Prabhupadas books I have come across passages that were so unclear that one thought there were some mistake in transcribing. I remember in Krisna book there was some text describing tilaka. I t was something like "One has to mark ones body with the temples of God" and I had an option - to translate it as it was knowing it makes no sense to me or to translate it like "One has to mark ones body with marks representing the temples of God". And there were plenty of others which English reader would pass by without noticing.

          That was my point. But the major alterations, changing the whole meaning - this is of course different story and I think we are of the same or similar opinion...
          • Re: Book changes

            Mon, May 21, 2007 - 1:30 PM
            Yes I acknowledge that there were some mistakes in the original books. If Jayadvaita had created a book describing and correcting those mistakes I would think it a great service.

            Unfortunately a good idea (correcting mistakes) has been parlayed in to a very extensive effort constituting thousands and thousands of changes. Each and every change has not been publicly justified. WE are expected to accept them on faith. And worse in my opinion is that many of them make the points presented less clear.

            There are quite a few of us who don't like how the original books have been changed. There are cottage industries of devotees presenting the original books online and in print form.

            To me it boils down to this. Which am I to consider more authentic? The books as they were when Srila Prabhupada was with us, the way they were when he heard them read from every day? Or the books as they have been edited with thousands and thousands of changes that have not been publicly justified? I know where I put my faith.

            As far as the service of translating in to other languages is concerned, it is a difficult task to translate a text to another language and keep intact the original meaning. I am reading some books right now on the aramaic words of Jesus and how much of the original aramaic meaning was lost in translation to Greek and then to English. There is a 2 thousand year history of editing Jesus's words and history makes it clear that many of the changes were done for other than pure spiritual reasons. So now it may appear that the correct meaning of what he said has been lost. So many of us feel it is a disservice to right after Srila Prabhupada has left us to do a massive editing of his books without a thorough documenting of each and every change.

            But then again maybe that is the nature of the material world. That as soon as truth in pure form presents itself the material energy goes to work on it to dilute it and cover it over. That same process seems to have played itself out over and over again in this Kali yuga. It reminds me of that game we sometimes played as a kid at camp where a bunch of people sit in a circle and the first person whispers a message in to the person next to him's ear. Then the next person whispers it to the next person and on and on all around the circle. Well by the time it gets all the way around the circle the original message has been totally changed. each person edits the meaning just a slight bit and the person after them edits just a slight bit more and before you know it you end up with a message that bears little semblence to the original message. And here we are just a few years after Srila Prabhupada has left us, right out of the box so to say, doing a massive editing of his books.

            And then the next question becomes, at what point after opening the pandora's box of editing Srila Prabhupada's words should I say it is good enough and stop? It appears that the answer is never. From the above letter it appears that some of the books have been edited more than once.

            Anyway I apologize if I have a lot of energy about this topic. It is something I feel strongly about as you can see, and it makes me very sad that the books that Srila Prabhupada wrote and used and that I love may no longer be published. Then what do we have, Bhagavad Gita, As It May or May Not Be?

            I need an explanation of every single change before I will accept it as Bhagavad Gita As It Is.
            • Re: Book changes

              Mon, May 21, 2007 - 4:48 PM
              ISKCON has already printed a book called Responsible Publishing. It would be better for one to address their concerns with that publication.
              • Re: Book changes

                Mon, May 21, 2007 - 4:59 PM
                excerpt for Responisible Publishing

                1975 edition
                [nothing; existing purport belongs to 138]
                1996 edition
                The mind's activities are thinking, feeling and willing, by which the mind accepts materially favorable things and rejects the unfavorable. This is the consciousness of people in general. But when one's mind does not accept and reject but simply becomes fixed on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then one's mind becomes as good as Vṛndāvana. Wherever Kṛṣṇa is, there also are Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, the gopīs, the cowherd boys and all the other inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. Thus as soon as one fixes Kṛṣṇa in his mind, his mind becomes identical with Vṛndāvana. In other words, when one's mind is completely free from all material desires and is engaged only in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then one always lives in Vṛndāvana, and nowhere else.
                Who would seriously claim that this jewellike purport should be consigned to oblivion?
                There are dozens and dozens of similar restorations in the 1996 Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
                • Re: Book changes

                  Mon, May 21, 2007 - 11:30 PM
                  Yes, I've read Responsible Publishing. It was this essay I was referring to when I said that he published a list of mistakes and then expected everyone to take the rest of the edits on faith. Most of the edits listed in reponsible publishing are corrections that have been made. It seems pretty obvious that obvious mistakes should be corrected. Or left out purports should be added back in. But it appears that there are many other changes that have been made to attemtp to make things more clear. Many times I have read the new translation and the old translation and I just like the old translation better. It is perfectly clear to me what is being said and I see no need whatsoever to edit it. That is maybe the biggest issue. The older devotees who have read the books for years don't like to see them changed, unless every single change is justified. Maybe writing a complete critical edition as he puts it would put their apprehensions to rest. Maybe it wouldn't. I guess we will never know because it seems unlikely a complete critical edition will ever be made.

                  So that leaves anyone who may have some doubt as to the necessity of all of the thousands of changes with the choice of reading the original books or reading the new ones, taking the changes on faith. Or maybe of reading both versions and doing a painstaking study of all the differences and putting forth challenges or inquiries as to the reasons for any changes that seem improper.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Book changes

                    Tue, May 22, 2007 - 12:00 PM
                    or another simple answer is contact those involved and inquire for them.

                    For example there was several Srila Prabhupada disciples here in Dallas who felt the same way until they attended Dravida Prabhu's seminar regarding the book changes. Now same devotees fully endorse the seva of Dravida Prabhu, Jayaadvaita Swami, and others.

                    I think it only makes sense to contact those involved and go from there. I have Dravida Prabhu's email if you or any other devotee would like to write him and ask him questions. Hare Krishna
                    Your humble servant
                    Nityananda Ram Das
                    • Re: Book changes

                      Wed, May 23, 2007 - 9:02 AM
                      I didn't like it when they changed the translations when they made the new version of the Vaisnava songbook either.

                      I also don't believe it is necessary for devotees to all agree on every point. The fact that devotees disagree doesn't bring me to the conclusion that one is right and the other is wrong. That may be the case, but it may also not be.

                      Personally having the email wouldn't help me, because I would want to see the justification for every single change, and as it says in responsible publishing, they have no intention of doing that. (of putting out a "critical edition")

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